Perhaps we should ask our HU readers to give us their BEER comments in
therm of their preference. Here in the states there are a few good beers,
most of which come from Canada.
Peter

In article >, 
says...
>
>I've been told this is my grandfather's report card from 1895-96, but
>noone in the family can translate it. The top line reads: A szerednyei
>rom. kath. elemi nepiskola igazgatosagatol.  Incription reads:  Yerabek
>Sandor ung megyei szerednyei szuletesu, 11. even, rom. kath. valla
(can't
>read) tanulo as 1895-96 tanevben (can't read) rom. kath. elemi nepiskola
>Vin osztalyat bevegezven, kovetkezo bizonyitvanyt nyert.
>Of course there's more. Can you help me out. I'd like to find this town
>and go visit
>  This is for my wife. Please reply to 
>
Translation:

"Issued by the Directorate of the Roman Catholic grade school of
Szerednye.  Sandor Yerabek, borne in Ung county, 11 years old, of Roman
Catholic religion, graduated from the 5th grade (I am not sure about Vin,
but I believe it has to do with Grade V (5)) with the following grades:"

I believe Szerednye must be close to Ungvar (Ung county?) which is not
located in present day Hugary.  I think it belongs no to the Ukraine -
but my knowledge of geography may be faulty.

Regards, Agnes

The Balkan Institute
Volume 1.19
November 28, 1996
_________________


BOSNIA:  ARMS ARRIVING

In Ploce, Croatia, from November 21 to 24, the United States unloaded
its $88 million weapons shipment    part of a $100 million contribution
under the U.S.-led arm-and-train programs    for the Bosnian
Federation. The Clinton Administration had withheld the delivery    at a
cost of more than $1 million    until Bosnian officials complied with its
demand that Federation Deputy Defense Minister Hasan Cengic be
removed from his position. Cengic, a Muslim who maintained close
links with Iran and who was perceived as an opponent of integration of
the Bosnian Army and Bosnian Croat militia forces, was fired on
November 19. A day earlier, Defense Minister Vladimir Soljic, an ethnic
Croat who also reportedly opposed integration of the forces, was forced
to resign.

The Administration's concern over Bosnia's ongoing ties to Iran and
other radical Islamists appears unlikely to be assuaged by the removal of
Cengic, who will now reportedly head the Interior Ministry, where he
will control the country's police forces. His replacement in the Defense
Ministry is Sakib Mahmuljin, who commanded Bosnian Army troops
and foreign Islamic fighters in the Army's Third Corps.

Training Program:  Retired U.S. soldiers employed by Military
Professionals Resources, Inc. (MPRI) are currently training officers in
each Federation battalion. At a newly opened training school in Pazaric,
1000 noncommissioned officers, 480 staff commanders, and 400
company commanders are being enrolled in intensive three- to four-
week courses in such subjects as battlefield systems and
communications, firing, and patrolling techniques. In the field, they are
receiving training in basic operations such as setting and sighting
mortars. Eventually, they will be trained with larger artillery and tanks.

After completing their course with MPRI instructors, the Bosnian
officers then train rank-and-file soldiers.

More Weapons:  A ship containing tanks, artillery, and armored vehicles
from the United Arab Emirates has also arrived in Ploce and is
scheduled to be unloaded soon. An Egyptian shipment of artillery
including 12 130mm field guns, 12 122mm howitzers, and 18 anti-
aircraft guns    is en route to Ploce.

European Objections:  The arrival of the U.S. weapons prompted sharp
criticism, but no firm objections, from Britain and other European
countries that have declined to participate in the arm-and-train
programs. With the notable exception of Germany, EU-member nations
claim that introducing more weapons to the Bosnian theater will make
the military atmosphere in the region even more explosive. Some
European analysts, such as Paul Beaver of Jane's Defense Weekly,
believe that the U.S. weapons will tip the military balance in favor of
the
Bosnian Army and thereby encourage it to launch new military counter-
offensives to recapture territory ceded to Bosnian Serb control under the
Dayton Accords. Such analysis, however, pre-supposes that the Bosnian
Serbs would actually comply with arms control agreements to reduce
their levels of heavy weapons. Perhaps more importantly, it pre-
supposes that  the Bosnian Serbs would no longer receive support from
Serbia proper, which armed, supplied, and financed their forces
throughout the war. In contrast to other European officials, Ambassador
Michael Steiner, a German diplomat who serves as deputy to High
Representative Carl Bildt, has expressed cautious support for the
programs. While labeling the effort "weird," he said on November 23
that if "this is a tool for welding the Croats and Muslims together, it
can
be a stabilizing factor on the country."

-- MILITARY WATCH regularly provides updates on the progress of
the U.S.-led arm-and-train program.

___________________________________


GREECE:  ARMING AGAINST TURKEY

On November 23, Greek Defense Minister Akis Tschodzopoulos warned
that, in accordance with Athens' 1993 defense pact with Nicosia, Greek
fighter jets would respond swiftly to any Turkish offensive in Cyprus.
Tschodzopoulos' bellicosity came just ten days after Greece's newly re-
elected socialist government launched a ten-year, $17 billion program to
upgrade and overhaul its armed forces. By the year 2000, it expects to
purchase AWACS planes, fighter jets, tanks, transport helicopters,
submarines, air defense systems, and trainer aircraft. Prime Minister
Costas Simitis said that the "reality" of "Turkish provocations and
threats" had forced his government to "bolster the capability" of the
country's armed forces.

The purchases are expected to come primarily from the United States,
but France, Germany and Switzerland are also expected to make deals.
Athens plans to buy approximately 50 F-16 aircraft and 10 French-made
Mirage 2000s. It is also likely to buy 20 U.S.-made T-37 trainer aircraft.

Other anticipated purchases include three AWACS flying radars, 200
M1 Abrams tanks, nine Chinook transport helicopters, two German
submarines, and 20 Swiss-made anti-aircraft systems for deployment at
military airports.  Athens also plans to deploy 10 Patriot air defense
systems around Athens, Thessaloniki, and Crete. Greek shipyards are to
build three Fast Attack Crafts, two corvettes, and four gunboats.

Simitis said that Greece will borrow from foreign lenders to make the
purchases, which, in his view, will not affect the country's convergence
targets for economic and monetary union with the European Union. The
government is also rallying Greek emigrants to make voluntary financial
donations.

_____________________________________________


Military Watch is published fortnightly by the Balkan Institute,
PO Box 27974, Washington, DC 20038-7974
Phone: (202) 737-5219
Fax: (202) 737-1940
E-mail: 
Home Page: http://users.aol.com/BalkanInst/home.html.

The Washington Post
Friday, November 29, 1996

 Hopelessness Propels Serbians Into Streets

                           Sustained Protests Signal Greatest Threat to
                           Milosevic's Power in a Decade

                           By John Pomfret
                           Washington Post Foreign Service
                           Friday, November 29 1996; Page A35
                           The Washington Post

                           In an oversize green felt hat and a cozy
                           overcoat, cheeks pink and eyes bright, Dusica
                           Zivanovic is everybody's grandma. But she is a
                           grandmother with a mission -- to bring down the
                           government of Serbian President Slobodan
                           Milosevic.

                           "Red bandits," howled Zivanovic, an instructor
of
                           electrical circuit theory, as she and thousands
                           of other marchers passed the Ministry of
                           Education building today on the 11th straight
day
                           of protests against Milosevic's rule. "Red
                           bandits," she yelled repeatedly -- her voice
                           cracking in the wintry air -- as the march
                           approached Milosevic's office in central
                           Belgrade.

                           "This government has destroyed our reputation
                           around the world," Zivanovic, 55, declared as
she
                           trekked side by side with students half her
age.
                           "Yugoslavia, the Serbian people used to be
                           respected. Now we are a pariah. We are poor. We
                           have nothing left."

                           Poverty, hopelessness and a fatally wounded
sense
                           of pride have propelled tens of thousands of
                           people onto the streets of Yugoslavia's capital
                           and several other cities across Serbia, the
                           country's dominant republic, for more than a
                           week. The largely peaceful protests mark the
                           biggest and most sustained challenge to
                           Milosevic's rule since the Balkan strongman
took
                           power in 1987 and set this region on a course
to
                           war.

                           The protests were sparked by Milosevic's move
to
                           overturn the results of Nov. 17 elections,
which
                           opposition political parties won in Belgrade
and
                           14 other major cities throughout Yugoslavia.
                           Courts loyal to Milosevic tossed out results in
                           some cities, and local election commissions,
also
                           controlled by the Serbian president, refused to
                           announce results in others.

                           Milosevic's government held new elections
                           Wednesday in Belgrade and other cities where
the
                           opposition appeared to have been victorious. An
                           opposition coalition, Together, called on its
                           supporters to boycott the vote. Not
surprisingly,
                           the government announced today that the ruling
                           Socialists had won those polls.

                           But the marches symbolize more than discontent
                           with democracy Serbian-style. Many Serbs are
                           deeply dissatisfied with the corrupt and inept
                           system that has ruled their lives for the past
                           nine years. Many protesters expressed belief
that
                           their country is unfixable as long as Milosevic
                           and those around him maintain control of
                           Yugoslavia, the federation now comprising only
                           Serbia and Montenegro.

                           "I am tired of living in a post-Communist
                           society," said Milan, 19, a freshman in the
                           electrical engineering department of Belgrade
                           University. "I just want to live in a normal
                           country. Is that so hard?"

                           Significantly, however, the protesters in
                           Belgrade -- mostly students and white-collar
                           workers, teachers, doctors, engineers and
lawyers
                           -- do not appear to be marching in support of
                           anything specific, just against Milosevic's
rule.
                           Partly for that reason, and partly because of
the
                           government's strong police forces, the wave of
                           protests is not expected to threaten
Milosevic's
                           hold on power.

                           This cloudy focus has complicated the task of
                           opposition leaders who are trying to coordinate
                           the protest. Opposition leaders said they were
                           reticent about calling on workers to strike,
for
                           example, because they do not want to
                           inconvenience the marchers with transportation
                           stoppages or closed stores. They also fear that
                           the workers will not heed such calls.

                           The opposition is further hampered by its own
                           internal splits -- among Serbian nationalists,
                           Western-leaning liberals and those who are
                           nostalgic for the good old days of Communist
                           Yugoslavia.

                           "People just want something positive to
happen,"
                           said Zoran Djindjic, the head of the opposition
                           Democratic Party and the man who would have
been
                           mayor of Belgrade if Milosevic had let the
                           election results stand.

                           Milosevic, largely, has been blamed with
starting
                           the wars in Croatia and Bosnia that resulted in
                           massive defeat for the Serbs. Croatian forces
                           expelled hundreds of thousands of Serbs from
                           Croatia last year, forcing them out of
territory
                           their ancestors had inhabited for more than 500
                           years. And Serbs in Bosnia were forced to drop
                           their dreams of uniting with Serbia to form
                           Greater Serbia.

                           In addition to presiding over this defeat,
                           Milosevic also ran Yugoslavia into its most
                           severe economic crisis. In 1990, 320,000 people
                           in central Serbia lived below the poverty line.
                           By the end of 1994, the figure was eight times
                           higher. In 1993, record-setting hyper-inflation
                           was almost impossible to calculate.

                           A fundamental shift in Yugoslav society
                           accompanied this financial collapse. In 1990,
                           more than two-thirds of Yugoslavia's poor lived
                           in isolated rural areas. Today, more than 60
                           percent of the poor inhabit the cities. They
are
                           people who used to be middle class.

                           In the six years during which Yugoslavia went
                           from being one country to six, for example,
                           Zivanovic's salary has fallen from more than
                           $1,000 a month to less than $100 a month. A
                           monthly electric bill in winter usually
consumes
                           her salary for the month. She gets by on money
                           borrowed from her son and remittances from
                           relatives abroad.

                           While the war was being fought, however, Serbs
                           rarely protested against their leaders.
                           Threatened by NATO, Muslims, Croats, tight U.N.
                           economic sanctions and the opprobrium of the
                           West, which held them largely responsible for
the
                           worst atrocities in Europe since World War II,
                           the Serbs united in an us-against-the-world
                           mentality. Milosevic successfully portrayed any
                           naysayers as troublemakers, subversive
elements,
                           the paid agents of foreign powers.

                           But in 1995, the Serbian president shed his
                           ultranationalist image and embraced peace. The
                           fighting in Bosnia ended last year at the
Dayton
                           peace conference with Milosevic's help. The end
                           of the war also deprived Milosevic of his great
                           excuse for economic failure. Most international
                           sanctions on Yugoslavia were lifted following
                           Milosevic's signing of the Dayton peace plan.
But
                           life is not improving.

                           "Now Milosevic is going to have to face the
                           music," Djindjic said. "With these protests and
                           the end of the war, we have entered a new era
for
                           the country. Milosevic is going and he can't do
                           anything to stop it now."

B o s N e t  - December 2, 1996
> =========================================================================
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_________________________________________________________________________

Editor's Note: In the past two weeks ,demonstrations in Belgrade have
weakened Slobodan Milosevic's hold on power. The 'Butcher of Belgrade',
who
masterminded Serbia's campaign of genocide in Bosnia , is in serious
trouble. His opponents have appealed to the outside world for help. Today
we are posting the
 one such appeal from the students of Belgrade University.

One can sincerely  hope that his opponents will sweep this tyrant from
power. However,it is well worth noting that he could have remained in
power, long after the demise of other Communist dictatorships, if were not
for the support  of a majority of  the Serbian population. His corrupt
regime survived largely because many of Serbia's citizens supported his
virulent attacks on the Muslim and Catholic populations of the
ex-Yugoslavia and his attempts to destroy Bosnia and Croatia.The
opposition
has yet to clearly break from Serbia's bloody past. Without such a clear
break, democracy in Serbia will be an idle dream.

Steven Albert


                                     Protest '96

Dear fellow students,

Considering the information blockade in our country, we are trying to
inform
universities all over the world via the Internet about the events in
Belgrade. The situation in Belgrade and Serbia is becoming more and more
dramatic.

The students' protest has been going on for three days now, with full
support from our professors. Belgrade University and all the other large
university centers throughout Serbia are in protest together. We appeal to
you to inform students and professors at your universities about what is
happening here.

Any kind of support from you will be highly appreciated.

                           Declaration of Decency

We, the students of Belgrade University, support the citizens of Serbia,
who
demand the protection of their guaranteed Constitutional rights. Brutal
violation of law and annihilation of regular electoral results represent
the
unprecedented attack on the basic principles of democracy. We are not
taking
sides between the party in power and the opposition, but we insist upon
the
rule of law. Any government unwilling to acknowledge its electoral defeat
does not deserve our support, and we overtly oppose it.

Therefore, we demand:

An immediate establishment of the Government Electoral Committee, which
will
be formed on proportional principles by the parties that took part in the
second round of voting. The purpose of this Committee will be to
objectivelly establish the outcome of the second round of voting. We
appeal
on all participants of the current political crisis to abstain from any
and
all violence. The students of Belgrade University will endure in their
protest.

University of Belgrade
_________________________________________________________________________
   Opinions expressed/published on BosNews/BosNet-B do NOT necessarily
   always reflect the views of (all of the members of) Editorial Board,
   and/or moderators, nor any of their host institutions.

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
>From:  Zoltan Szekely >
>Date:  Sun, 1 Dec 1996 13:55:42 -0500
>
>Sam Stowe had it:
>
>> The President doesn't appear to address publicly the role God Almighty
>> plays in America in anything you've posted so far. He does appear to
dip
>> into the well of Southern Baptist piety as a rhetorical embellishment
and
>> a figurative nod to American civil religion.
>The President is a Southern Baptist indeed. I guess he did
>not need a confession about his religious experiences in
>order to get the victory -- after the election! It would
>have been nonsense: he already won it, fella. The election
>was over! Nobody had to be convinced or cheated to join the
>President's side in the election anymore. So he could afford
>to be honest. And, what a surprise!, he made his speech
>about God.

Your reasoning is sketchy at best, your knowledge of civil religion
absolutely abysmal. On the whole, I'd say this is your normal frame of
mind with any topic. Did it ever occur to you that I wasn't even
questioning the President's veracity? What you apparently took as a
religious conversion was nothing more than Clinton going to the well of
civil religion one more time to mine a rhetorical vein which has served
many of his predecessors, including Roman Catholics like JFK, fallen-away
Quakers like Nixon and happy pagans like Ronald Reagan. It happens that
the President's use of civil religion is shaped by the religious
sensibilities of the church in which he was reared. I would not, however,
count on seeing Bubba out on a street corner shaking a tambourine and
calling on sinners to repent.

>
>> Readers with any interest in the intersection
>> between religion and government in late 20th Century America have a
whole
>> feast of thought-provoking authors to choose from to learn more on the
>> subject -- Richard John Neuhaus, Stephen Carter, Robert Bellah, James
>> Davison Hunter and more.
>I read Father James D. Kennedy, who also made interesting
>points. Do you really want me to quote him?

Suit yourself. From what you've quoted by him so far, he's about as big a
clown as you are. How do you people always seem to find one another?

>
>> >Cheer up, the life is short.
>> >                                             Sz. Zoli
>> The thought that yours indeed may be so does bring a smile to my lips.
>> Sorry, it's an involuntary muscular reaction.
>Now, you want to make me murdered. Did my points (actually
>the points of your President!) hit you so hard?! ;-)

You humor yourself. You have to, I suppose, to maintain even a minimal
grasp on sanity in the face of the awful hand you've been dealt to play in
life. By the way, it would distress me greatly if you were murdered. No
one deserves that. It would make me feel better, however, if you would
sign a promise not to procreate. I actually think this might bring great
comfort to more people on this list than myself.

>
>> >And who are
>> >these misterious 'people of God'? Undoubtedly, the
>> >people of God are the Christians of America, many of
>> >whom prayed for the President.
>> Undoubtedly, the people of God are the ones who struggle to keep the
great
>> commandments: love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your
>> soul and with all your mind; and, love your neighbor as yourself.
>I like your quoting the Bible!! Maybe you are not the guy
>you try to show up in desparation? You mostly show up a
>sour even bitter fellow of yourself whose only joy is
>poking fun on a Saturday Night Live level. And now... You
>argue as a Christian. What a surprise!

Dear God, I hope I'm doing better than the current incarnation of Saturday
Night Live! I am not a sour or bitter chap at all. But I am a clear-eyed
enough believer to recognize the whiff of Savonarola and the chuckle of
Goering when I run across them.
>
>(to be continued)                                Sz. Zoli

It always is with your kind, Zoltan. That's one of the problems.
Sam Stowe


"And the number one sign that
you're attending a redneck
wedding? Rehearsal dinner
held at Hooters!"
-- The John Boy and
Billy Big Show

At 09:58 PM 12/2/96 -0500, "Peter A. Soltesz" > wrote:

>Perhaps we should ask our HU readers to give us their BEER comments in
>therm of their preference. Here in the states there are a few good beers,
>most of which come from Canada.

Hungarians have no beer they can brag about.  The "vilagos" (light) beers
are OK, on a hot day, but the others are for desperate people.  It's too bad
that many young Hungarians have developed a taste for beer and have almost
forsaken wine.  Too bad because Hungary has wines it can brag about.

And, by the way, the best beers in Canada are not exported to the United
States.  They're brewed in small "micro-breweries" that tend to serve the
local market.  Here, in the Kitchener-Waterloo area, several pubs brew their
own beers and you can only drink it in their establishment.  It doesn't get
more micro than that.

Joe Szalai

"I only drink to make other people seem more interesting."
           George Jean Nathan

Does anyone know the dates for the spring holiday at the University of
Budapest (Budapest U.)?  Thank you.

(Eva Balogh:)
>
>         Zoltan Rakonczay is not a good sport, but by insisting that I am
> wrong and he is right he just admitted that Hungarians are a very stupid lot
> because after all the excellent anti-smoking propaganda of the Hungarian
> government (equal to the Canadian or American), Hungarians kept smoking
> while the Canadians and Americans figured out that it was harmful to their
> health.
>

Perhaps it is something to do with, both before and after the system
changed, with working/living under pressure/doing more than one job
for a living/economic unceratinty.  If you look at western stats, you
can see, that it is the better to do and relatively more secure, who
concentrates on health issues more. Here in the UK smoking is the
habit of the lower social classes and youth, and in this strata is
actually growing.


> >May I mention that it is mostly the American tobacco companies that
> >set up those nasty giant posters all over Hungary?
>
>         And why do you think that the American tobacco companies rushed over
> to Eastern Europe first thing and bought up all the cigarette manufacturing
> companies? Because they felt sorry for the poor, downtrodden East Europeans?
> Oh, no! Because they knew that they had an excellent market over there while
> here the market was shrinking.
>

I nice illustration for all I happened to say before; the market
system is not human-friendly.


>         The influence of the American tobacco companies have less and less
> influence on Washington, but I am sure that they will do their utmost to
> influence the Hungarian lawmakers in the coming debate on anti-smoking
> legislation.
>

Especially as they bought up the Hungarian tobacco-industry.



>         So, what are you saying that there is no work moral or any other
> morals in Hungary?
>

Morals are just the same as in any European country - whoever can
get away with it cheats, the more powerful gets away with more.



>         You are changing the subject. What are you saying? I guess something
> like that: "You are all upset about smoking and drinking but at least we
> didn't have any drug problems, so we have had it over you." First of all,
> Hungary does have a drug problem today and your joking about the "good old
> Communist years," I am afraid, doesn't strike me as a joke. It sounds hollow.
>

Let's face it, being in the free market economy has it's price:
the influence of drug-culture wouldn't be so strong if it
wasn't accompanied by the existence of disillusioned youth with
a future of uncertainty.

>         Hungary was still more or less isolated from the rest of the world
> in those days. Today it isn't. I just read yesterday in the New York Times
> that while in the United States the number of the HIV-affected people is
> decreasing, Eastern Europe today can boast of the fastest growing HIV
> infection in the whole world.
>

In HUngary the figures are extremely low to compared with the west.
Growth numbers can be extreme if you start from low, but even than I
don't think  they mean HUngary, I think the ex-Soviet countries, e.g.
Russia are worst.
       You made yourself perfectly clear. Instead, I suggest that you write
> a letter to the New York Times and explain to them that their reporting on
> environmental issues in Eastern Europe is totally false.
>

... and take care; from past correspondence I know, that Eva Balogh
is convinced, that there is no such thing as a biased media in the
US... she has a problem of total lack of critical thinking when the
topic is anything to do with US democracy and the capitalist system,
(to be copied asap by Hungary.)

At 12:00 PM 12/3/96 +1000, George Antony wrote:

>> > Peter Soltesz wrote:
>> > > Yes, Hungarian beer also went down in quality...it is better to get
>> > > "imports" even if they are bottled in HU.
>>George Antony wrote:
>> > This is nonsense.  Since the return of the Dreher brand, Hungarian beer
>> > has improved in quality and consistency.  Even the pedestrian Kobanyai
>> > Vilagos is better nowadays.
>
>Peter Soltesz wrote:
>> <<<< I do not agree. Only lately has Dreher been acceptable. Kobanyai,
>> once the average Joe's beer in HU is rather poor now.
>
>Perhaps we should call for a vote on that.

        George, I got Kobanyai on the plane and it wasn't very good.

>> Perhaps our taste buds
>> have been overwhelmed with much better beers.
>
>Mine certainly were not.  Australian beer has body but no taste, and the
>mainstream US beers I tasted did not even have body let alone taste.

        I got to the point, after drinking imported German beer, that I am
quite unable to drink American (or Canadian) beer although there is a very
substantial price difference. There are some so-called micro-breweries now
in the United States which pride themselves on producing quality beer. I
tried one of them--Samuel Adams--and it was way above in quality of the
average American brew. But it costs the same as Becker, for example, and not
as good.

        In October I had the opportunity to taste Australian beer in a
restaurant chain called Outbacker which boasts Australian cuisine and
Australian beer. Well, that Australian beer (I forgot the name of it) wasn't
a great product either.

        By the way, not far from me there is the biggest liquor store I have
ever seen. Incredible selection of Californian and imported wines in
addition to every possible brand of beer, including Japanese, Korean,
Mexican, and Chinese. I didn't venture into far-eastern beer but the Mexican
was surprisingly good.

>My yardstick has always been the Czech Pilseners, and now even Dreher
>brew a reasonable imitation of that.  The Czech beers were one of the few
>products that did not suffer in quality under communism, and they are still
>available in Hungary for comparative tastings.

        I should check whether my liquor store has the Pilsener or not. I
agree with the George it is the best beer in the world except its alcoholic
contents is about twice of American beer which may come as a surprise after
gozzling down half a litter on a hot summer afternoon.

        Eva Balogh

This morning I open the newspaper and on page 3 there is a follow-up
article on Vaclav Havel's operation. A few days ago it was reported that
Havel would have a lung operation and the explanation was somewhat murky:
complications of pneumonia. As I suspected it wasn't pneumonia. It was lung
cancer. According to the doctors the tumor was "very radical." He lost half
of his right lung as a result of the operation. Prognosis is good, said the
surgeon. The article talks about Havel's heavy smoking, of course.

        In the middle of the article there is an interesting paragraph
pertinent to our discussion:

        "The death rate of Czech men diagnosed with lung cancer between 1990
and 1993 was the second highest in the world, after Hungary, according to
the World Health Organization."

        So, here is the result of those Herculian efforts the Hungarian
government put into an anti-smoking campaign!

        Eva Balogh

>> This is nonsense.  Since the return of the Dreher brand, Hungarian beer
>> has improved in quality and consistency.  Even the pedestrian Kobanyai
>> Vilagos is better nowadays.
><<<< I do not agree. Only lately has Dreher been acceptable. Kobanyai,
>once the average Joe's beer in HU is rather poor now. Perhaps our taste buds
>have been overwhelmed with much better beers.

        I think my helpful steward gave me a can of Kobanyai and I didn't
think that it was very good. I can't pass judgment on Dreher--they didn't
offer one to me.

        Eva Balogh

Eva Durant received my note with more sympathy than I expected.

At 02:31 PM 12/3/92 +0000, she wrote:
>(Eva Balogh:)
>>
>>         Zoltan Rakonczay is not a good sport, but by insisting that I am
>> wrong and he is right he just admitted that Hungarians are a very stupid lot
>> because after all the excellent anti-smoking propaganda of the Hungarian
>> government (equal to the Canadian or American), Hungarians kept smoking
>> while the Canadians and Americans figured out that it was harmful to their
>> health.


>Perhaps it is something to do with, both before and after the system
>changed, with working/living under pressure/doing more than one job
>for a living/economic unceratinty.

        I don't know about pressure and economic uncertainty. In the United
States the numbers were comparable to other countries at the time when the
United States was considered to be the richest country in the world with the
highest living standards. I am talking about the 1950s and 1960s.

>Here in the UK smoking is the
>habit of the lower social classes and youth, and in this strata is
>actually growing.

        Here too but I would phrase the above slightly differently. Smoking
seems to correlate with educational attainment. Here are some American
statistics from 1990:

Education/Men %/Women %/ Total %

Less than high school diploma/37.3/27.1/31.8
High school diploma/33.5/26.5/29.6
Some college/26.2/20.2/23.0
College degree/14.5/12.3/13.5

>>         And why do you think that the American tobacco companies rushed over
>> to Eastern Europe first thing and bought up all the cigarette manufacturing
>> companies? Because they felt sorry for the poor, downtrodden East Europeans?
>> Oh, no! Because they knew that they had an excellent market over there while
>> here the market was shrinking.
>>
>
>I nice illustration for all I happened to say before; the market
>system is not human-friendly.

        And this is where you anticapitalist bias comes in. Let's take
actually the cigarette companies because they are very good illustrations
that you are wrong. In Hungary, not just during the "socialist" regime but
also prior to the communist takeover tobacco was state monopoly. That meant
that all factories were run by the state and the income from smoking went
into the coffers of the state. It was therefore not in the interest of the
state to cut down on smoking. Cutting down on smoking would have meant less
income.

        In a free market economy, where the state has relatively little
stake in direct ownership of manufacturing enterprises, the government is
not directly affected by rules and regulations controlling, for example, the
tobacco industry. In fact, in some ways  it benefits monitarily through
higher taxes on tobacco products. Of course, indirectly the government is
still being influenced in the favor of the industry through lobbying of
tobacco farmers and the companies themselves. However, as the American and
Canadian examples show, the governments of these two countries were rather
successful in enacting legislations which severely and negatively affected
the industry as opposed to the state monopolies of the Eastern European
countries where the industry and the state were the same.

>Especially as they bought up the Hungarian tobacco-industry.

        Certainly the preponderance of these foreign companies will have an
effect of the legislators but even more so the fact that the majority of the
lawmakers most likely smokers themselves and they will find it rather
difficult to enact laws which are restricting their own "freedom."

>>         So, what are you saying that there is no work moral or any other
>> morals in Hungary?
>>
>
>Morals are just the same as in any European country - whoever can
>get away with it cheats, the more powerful gets away with more.

        There are many, many signs that the morals in Hungary and in the
other East European countries are below the norm in Western Europe. Reason
being that the only way to survive in the Kadar regime was to find ways of
avoiding the law. Also, the preponderance of state ownership had a negative
effect on the population. Public ownership, as far as they were concerned,
belonged to nobody and therefore was there for the taking.

>Let's face it, being in the free market economy has it's price:
>the influence of drug-culture wouldn't be so strong if it
>wasn't accompanied by the existence of disillusioned youth with
>a future of uncertainty.

        Oh my God, Eva, you are unreal!


>>         Hungary was still more or less isolated from the rest of the world
>> in those days. Today it isn't. I just read yesterday in the New York Times
>> that while in the United States the number of the HIV-affected people is
>> decreasing, Eastern Europe today can boast of the fastest growing HIV
>> infection in the whole world.
>>
>
>In HUngary the figures are extremely low to compared with the west.
>Growth numbers can be extreme if you start from low, but even than I
>don't think  they mean HUngary, I think the ex-Soviet countries, e.g.
>Russia are worst.

        Sure! But it is becoming a problem. The last issue of 168 ora shows
a heroine addict (a woman) on its front page and there is a long article on
the drug problem. Just wait!

>       You made yourself perfectly clear. Instead, I suggest that you write
>> a letter to the New York Times and explain to them that their reporting on
>> environmental issues in Eastern Europe is totally false.
>>
>
>... and take care; from past correspondence I know, that Eva Balogh
>is convinced, that there is no such thing as a biased media in the
>US... she has a problem of total lack of critical thinking when the
>topic is anything to do with US democracy and the capitalist system,
>(to be copied asap by Hungary.)

        If you are interested what I think of the media and its effect on
all of us, please turn to the last issues of Forum. There is such thing as
biased media, of course. The New York Times is a liberal paper which is also
very sensitive when it comes to Israel or Jewish issues. (After all, 25
percent of New York City's population is Jewish.) However, I can't come up
with any good reason why the New York Times (and every other paper, tv
stations, documentaries, etc. etc.) would depict some of the industrial
sites in Eastern Europe as wastelands. Why? Being a liberal paper it
obviously cares about the environment. Being a large paper it has several
correspondents who are stationed in Eastern European countries who go to
these sites and report on what they find there. Why should they lie? Tell me?

        Eva Balogh

To Eva B. and the others,

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard that a lot of these so-called
micro-breweries like Samuel Adams are actually shams.  They are just beer
companies that rent out a day or two per month at a regular, big brewery
then go and sell themselves out as some "home-made, quality" brew.

Here in Philadelphia I think it was Budweiser who recently ran ads denouncing
the Sam Adams scam.

Has anyone heard anything else concerning this to confirm or contradict?

Besides Czech beers, Belgian beers should be investigated by any beer
enthusiast; for me they often have great body and taste... and a price to boot.

- Mark H

On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Mark Humphreys wrote:

> To Eva B. and the others,
>
> Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard that a lot of these so-called
> micro-breweries like Samuel Adams are actually shams.  They are just beer
> companies that rent out a day or two per month at a regular, big brewery
> then go and sell themselves out as some "home-made, quality" brew.
>
> Here in Philadelphia I think it was Budweiser who recently ran ads denouncing
> the Sam Adams scam.
>
> Has anyone heard anything else concerning this to confirm or contradict?
>
<<<<<<<
Yes, I have! It is non-sense. The Boston Brewery Company
 makes Samuel Adams in several locations:
Where is Samuel Adams brewed?
   Because of our commitment to [42]freshness, we brew our beer close to
   the consumer to ensure the fresh from the brewery taste. We brew
   Samuel Adams at our historic brewery in Boston and our brewpub in
   Philadelphia, as well as at sites in Pennsylvania, New York, Ohio,
   Oregon, and California. Samuel Adams is also the first American beer
   to be brewed in Germany.

For further information look up http:// www.samadams.com


Peter Soltesz

I need your help!

My wife's 50th birthday is coming up (January 17, 1997) and I've been
trying to figure out how to surprise her. I think I have. Please read
on.

Both of us have always wanted to travel. But for lots of reasons
(including three children and limited income) we have never been able
to travel much other than short trips here and there around the
Mid-USA area. Since we have not had the chance to explore this
beautiful place God has given us, I thought how much fun it would be
to give her postcards from all over the world.

This is of course where you come in. If you would like to spread a
little birthday joy to a wonderful woman whom I have the pleasure of
calling my wife, please consider sending her a postcard.

If you would like to be a part of this surprise birthday party, send a
picture postcard of your city (or favorite part of the world) and a
brief birthday wish. Please send it to:

        Jan Nimchuk
        c/o Schultz
        467 Coyote Trail
        Circle Pines, MN 55014

Thank you!

Robert Nimchuk
Managing Partner

Written Word                    Tel: (612)-1199
1480 Park Street, Suite 201     Fax: (612) 653-1199
White Bear Lake, MN 55110       Net: 

If someone has the time perhaps you might want to translate this into
English.
Comments Anyone???
Peter Soltesz

---------- Forwarded message ----------
here it goes:

Egy vizsgalat lehetseges magyarazata
SESZTAK AGNES
[Demokrata, 96/10, http://www.siliconvalley.com/demokrata/ ]

Azt mondja egy felmeres, hogy Europaban a magyar a
legborulatobb nemzet. Milyennek kene lennunk? Hiszen mar
nem is vagyunk nemzet. Hallgassanak meg egy parlamenti beszedet:
hol adofizeto, hol allampolgar, hol jogalany, legtobbszor pedig
kezelhetetlen lakossag a nevunk. Jogunk semmi, egyetlen
kotelessegunk annak a kleptokracianak diktaturajat turni,
amely mar ult a nyakunkon negyven evig. Akkor nem szocialista
uraknak, hanem kommunista elvtarsaknak hivattak magukat.
Neha azt erzem, mindannyian nyulak vagyunk egy tebolyult
korvadaszaton, amelyben sorban kilonek bennunket; ido
kerdese, mikor.

A kormany ugyanis nem kegyelmez. Olyan intezkedeseket, es
olyan torvenyeket hoz, amelyek kizarolag csalad-, nep- es
nemzetellenesek. Semmifele ellenorzesre nincs modunk, mert a
media a diktatura szoros szovetsegese.

Hazudik, aki arrol beszel, hogy a helyzet javul. Csak rosszabbodik,
mert a hatalmon levoknek nem erdekuk a jobbitas. Horn
Gyulanak egyetlen szava sem igaz, amikor az orszag
rendbetetelerol es modernizaciorol meg stabilizaciorol
beszel. Fedezet nelkuli ures szolamok csupan. Locsognak, amikor
a feketegazdasag letoreserol szonokolnak, mert legeloszor
sajat elvtarsi klienturajukat kellene jol feneken rugni. Azt pedig
nem teszik, mert igenis a politikaban jelen van a gazdasagi maffia,
kulonben az olajbotranyokat mikepp lehetne ertelmezni? Es nem
tortenik semmi.

A nagy eloszto rendszerek viszik a penzt. Es a bankok hozzak?
Olyan nincs, hogy a milliardos hianyt milliardos hianyra halmozo,
botranyos es sikkasztasgyanus bankot bezarjak, a bankart
pedig nehany evre lecsukjak. Itt a bankarok ha tonkretettek,
kifosztottak es szethordtak a bank vagyonat o a mi penzunket
o, millios vegkielegitesekert allnak sorba. Torvenyes, mondja
a szakerto. Es erkolcstelen o mondom en es a kozvelemeny.
Csakhogy ebben az orszagban nincs erkolcs, a jog pedig a feje
tetejere allt. Az Ybl Bank vezerei negymilliardrol "nem akarnak"
beszamolni, a Tribu Kft. navigatorai ketmilliard holleterol,
tizenotezer szerencsetlen elsikkasztott penzerol nem
szeretnenek beszelni. Milyen jogallam ez, ahol ugyankkor az APEH
legalisan elszedi a berek felet? Ahol a becsuletesseget buntetik,
a sikkaszto pedig torvenyesen garazdalkodik? A nepjoleti
tarca, amelynek vezetojeben ha volna karakansag, a
miniszterium nevenek surgos megvaltoztatasat kerne, a
penzugyi szervek jatekszereve sullyedt. A miniszter legutobbi
aranymondasa szerint a penzbeni tamogatasok nem novelik a
szulesi kedvet. Kar, hogy sohasem probalhattuk ki a
gyakorlatban, mig az ellenkezoje naponta bizonyitott. Amint
hogy arra sem kapott meg senki valaszt, hova lett a negyven evig
beszedett dolgozoi jarulek. A penzugyminiszter legszivesebben
hetven evre tette volna a nyugdijkorhatart, de ugy, hogy a
csaladtagok adjak ossze  a szulok nyugdijat. Miert? Az nem
hajmereszto, hogy harminc-negyven evi munka utan alamizsnat
loknek az embereknek? Magyar atlagnyugdijas meg almaiban
sem hasonlit egy francia vagy egy osztrak sorstarsahoz. Azok a
Rivieran telelnek, emez meg szeretne egy heten egyszer befuteni
a lakasaban. Az egyik napilapban mostanaban jelent meg egy
pimasz cikk, hogy a franciak es az angolok magasabb
energiaszamlat fizetnek, mint a magyarok. Az atlagfizeteseket
elfelejtettek melle odairni.

Pesszimistak vagyunk. Meg kizarolag szamla- es adoalanyok.
Legalabbis ennek a kormanyzatnak.

____________________________________________

<end>

At 12:05 PM 12/3/96 EST, Mark Humphreys wrote:

>To Eva B. and the others,
>
>Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard that a lot of these so-called
>micro-breweries like Samuel Adams are actually shams.  They are just beer
>companies that rent out a day or two per month at a regular, big brewery
>then go and sell themselves out as some "home-made, quality" brew.

I don't know the situation in the US, but Canadian micro-breweries are for
real.  No shams.  Just really good beer.

Ein Prosit!

Joe Szalai

Lajos Monoki has sent an interesting treatsie about being a Trabant owner
in HU and other EE contries. I must say he makes some good points.

However, txis, as rent-a-cars, tend to limit their usage on a per annum
basis. Namely, here in the US atleast, one can buy used AVIS, Hertz, etc.
cars that are practically NEW after one or 2 years with under 60K miles
(about 100K km). I still think that a 1 or 2 year old anything is better
than a trabant both in terms of pollution, safety and resale value.

I guess that having K-1 fuel or pre-mix (gas & oil) is the real problem.

One other pollution problem (and a tax problem) is the habit of diesel
taxi and car owners is to purchase heavily subsidized home heating fuel
instead of the more expensive diesel fuel. I undererstand that the home
heating fuel is now being "tainted" with a marker and the police can pull
a diesel car over to perform a test from the tank. If it has this stuff
in it, then whammo! you get a BIG fine.  I have yet to actually see or
hear of this happening. Anyone out there who knows better??
Peter Soltesz

On Tue, 3 Dec 1996, Lajos MONOKI wrote:

> >Perhaps we should ask our HU readers to give us their BEER comments in
> >therm of their preference. Here in the states there are a few good beers,
> >most of which come from Canada.
> >Peter
>
> Beers bottled in Hungary:
> Kaiser
> Amstel
<<<<< It is OK but not as good as Amstel that one gets from the source or
IN USA
> Spaten
<<<<<<Good

> Holsten
>
> Hungarian beers:
> Borsodi vilagos
<<<< drinkable
> Dreher
> <<<<acceptable

At 12:05 PM 12/3/96 EST, you wrote:
>To Eva B. and the others,
>
>Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I heard that a lot of these so-called
>micro-breweries like Samuel Adams are actually shams.  They are just beer
>companies that rent out a day or two per month at a regular, big brewery
>then go and sell themselves out as some "home-made, quality" brew.
>
>Here in Philadelphia I think it was Budweiser who recently ran ads denouncing
>the Sam Adams scam.
>
>

Much as I like Sam Adams, I've never heard that they pretend to be a
micro-brewery.  Indeed, they seem to go out of their way to become a
macro-brewery that makes great beer.

As far as Budweiser is concerned, they ought to think twice before attacking
anyone, for they have a particularily  unsavory past.  They stole their name
and logo from the Bohemian town and brewery of Budweis.  Called to task they
admitted their theft in the 1910's and promised to confine their selling to
North America.  During the Cold War they took advantage of the fact that the
Czechs were a captive nation and expanded into Europe.  The Czechs are now
suing Budweiser for violating their legal agreement.

The Czech's main and most easily proved charge is that Anheuser-Busch makes
a lousy beer and calls it Budweiser, thus cheapening and ruining the real
Budweiser's reputation.


Charlie Vamossy

Lajos,

        Isn't it so that sooner or later all Trabants will be things of the
past because they don't make them anymore. Of course, one could say, as the
West Germans did, "sorry, guys, no Trabant, no car." But I guess this would
be a bit harsh.

        Eva Balogh

In article
>, "Peter
A. Soltesz" > writes:

>Perhaps we should ask our HU readers to give us their BEER comments in
>therm of their preference. Here in the states there are a few good beers,
>most of which come from Canada.
>Peter

Are there any Hungarian beers available in the American market? I didn't
think the Hungarians were as big on drinking beer as some of their
neighbors. I'd like to know how Hungarian beer stacks up in terms of
quality and amount consumed compared to other European nations.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- Peter, don't you think the domestic beer situation here in the
States has improved substantially over the last decade or so since the
rise of the microbrewery? Seems like us American beer drinkers get a lot
more choice and a lot higher quality these days.

"And the number one sign that
you're attending a redneck
wedding? Rehearsal dinner
held at Hooters!"
-- The John Boy and
Billy Big Show

At 07:09 PM 12/3/96 GMT, Sam wrote:

>Are there any Hungarian beers available in the American market?

        I very much doubt it. I don't think that they can compete. At least
the array of international beer in my liquor store attests that the
competition must be stiff. And we haven't been even talking about English
beer--which, by the way, seems to be the most expensive.

        When it comes to Hungarian imports which one can see easily is
"Hungarian paprika." Every supermarket has some "genuine" Hungarian paprika
in addition to the red stuff which is being sold under the name of "paprika"
except it has no taste whatsoever. And that reminds me of the container in
which that paprika has been sold for years in the United States. The genuine
Szeged paprika was imported from Hungary and packaged here in nice-looking
red aluminum containers, with a Kossuth coat-of-arms on it, ignoring the
official coat-of-arms of Kadar's Hungary. Then came the change of regime and
the Kossuth coat-of-arms was passe'. Now we have the crown and all on the
container. So, something which was a statement in those days, became, how
shall I say, not daring enough in 1990.

>I didn't
>think the Hungarians were as big on drinking beer as some of their
>neighbors.

        I understand that beer consumption is going up and up and up in
Hungary. I am not sure why. When I was growing up the only time the family
bought beer was during summers and even then rarely. But that was somewhat
understandable. In Pecs almost every family had a vineyard. Ours was fairly
large but the vines were too old and therefore the yearly yield was barely
enough for the three families: my grandparents, my aunt and uncle, and
ourselves. It was customary in those days to have some wine with every meal.
Not full strength but a "spritzer," that is a combination of wine and soda
water. (The combination of one deciliter of wine and one deciliter of
sodawater is called a "kisfro:ccs," and the combination of two deciliter of
wine and one deciliter of sodawater is called a "hosszu'le'pe's" [long
step].) We went out to the cellar at certain intervals and brought in a
five-liter demijohn of wine which lasted for a while. Once a week the
soda-water man came and we exchanged our empty soda syphons for full ones.
[By the 1950s the soda water man did come to the house. We had to go to the
store and carry the very heavy syphons home.] So, the vineyard took care of
three families' alcohol consumption for a whole year. Otherwise, we had some
sweet liqueur in the house for guests, especially female ones. A bottle of
those lasted for years. Otherwise, hard liquor was practically unknown.
However, by the late 1960s things had changed. Hard liquor became more
fashionable (Scotch, for example) and the poorer strata of society became
rum drinkers--often mixed with beer.

        Eva Balogh

At 01:09 PM 12/3/96 -0800, Charlie Vamossy wrote:

>Much as I like Sam Adams, I've never heard that they pretend to be a
>micro-brewery.  Indeed, they seem to go out of their way to become a
>macro-brewery that makes great beer.

        I think it started as a micro-brewery. No? Around here there is a
brand-name "Elm City," which is, of course, produced in New Haven, the Elm
City. (The poor elm trees unfortunately all died as a result of some elm
disease ages ago, but still one of the main thoroughfare through campus is
called Elm Street.) In any case, the brewery now even has a restaurant
attached to it and after visiting the brewery you can go to the restaurant
and, of course, drink their beer. So, Budweiser's claim is absolutely
ridiculous. Micro-breweries for the most part are indeed micro-breweries. I
must admit that I didn't try it but a friend of mine said good things about
both the beer and the restaurant.

>As far as Budweiser is concerned, they ought to think twice before attacking
>anyone, for they have a particularily  unsavory past.  They stole their name
>and logo from the Bohemian town and brewery of Budweis.  Called to task they
>admitted their theft in the 1910's and promised to confine their selling to
>North America.  During the Cold War they took advantage of the fact that the
>Czechs were a captive nation and expanded into Europe.  The Czechs are now
>suing Budweiser for violating their legal agreement.

        Quite! And what a lousy beer at that.

        Eva Balogh

>Felado :  [Australia]
>Temakor:  Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING!( 10 sor )
>Idopont: Wed Nov 27 19:14:52 EST 1996 HUNGARY #860
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
>Could us non-USAians be spared of further elaborations of
>cultural and political issues not relevant anywhere else
>but the US.
>
>This is still a mailing list for Hungarian issues.  I do
>not send syrupy messages on Australia day, you guys over-
>eager to show how good 'merkins you became should keep the
>manifestations of that to yourself.
>
>George Antony

For once, I am with George Antony!  Since this is supposed to be a Hungarian
list, and Thanksgiving is a peculiarly North American holiday,  way too much
space has been wasted on this subject.

Hoping all fellow North Americans have enjoyed their long holiday weekend and
are now ready to return to subjects having (more) Hungarian content,

Ferenc

In article >,
 says...

Dear George,

>My yardstick has always been the Czech Pilseners, and now even Dreher
>brew a reasonable imitation of that.  The Czech beers were one of the few
>products that did not suffer in quality under communism, and they are still
>available in Hungary for comparative tastings.

Right, Czech pilseners tend to be good.

>If anything, my gripe with the Hungarian beer scene is that most of the
>premium beers nowadays are the relatively tasteless German/Austrian brands.

But what is this? German beer tasteless??!! Are you nuts or a complete
philistine? Oh, I forgot, you're an Ozzie ;-)
Try Weihenstphan or Hannen Alt! These beers beat anything I've tasted
anywhere.....
<snip>..

Regards,

George

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ICPUG..C=64 * ARM Club..Acorn * NWLCC

At 11:11 AM 12/3/96 -0500,  Eva Balogh wrote:

<snip>
>At 02:31 PM 12/3/92 +0000, she (Eva Durant) wrote:

<snip>
>>Here in the UK smoking is the
>>habit of the lower social classes and youth, and in this strata is
>>actually growing.


>        Here too but I would phrase the above slightly differently. Smoking
>seems to correlate with educational attainment. Here are some American
>statistics from 1990:
>
>Education/Men %/Women %/ Total %
>
>Less than high school diploma/37.3/27.1/31.8
>High school diploma/33.5/26.5/29.6
>Some college/26.2/20.2/23.0
>College degree/14.5/12.3/13.5

"...slightly differently."  Oh, come on!  It's not slightly different from
what Eva Durant wrote.  It's totally perverted!  Mentioning educational
attainment without reference to anything else is interesting, but totally
absurd and useless.  When Eva Durant wrote, "lower social classes and
youth", I assumed that those people had a lower educational attainment.
While Eva Balogh "appears" to be giving more information on the topic, I'm
afraid she's only being umbrageous.  And all this to avoid even a faint
whiff of anything resembling a Marxist analysis.

Joe Szalai

"The Marxist analysis has got nothing to do with what happened in Stalin's
Russia: it's like blaming Jesus Christ for the Inquisition in Spain."
               Tony Benn

>Perhaps we should ask our HU readers to give us their BEER comments in
>therm of their preference. Here in the states there are a few good beers,
>most of which come from Canada.
>Peter
>


Beers bottled in Hungary:
Kaiser
Amstel
Spaten
Holsten

Hungarian beers:
Borsodi vilagos
Dreher

Lajos

.....

>> Not really. Trabant owners were offered about 200.000 Ft for their cars. But
>> a new car, even a Suzuki Swift was about 1.000.000 Ft that time. It was not
>> such a good deal. For 200.000 forints you could buy only a very old used
>> western car (abou 10-15 years old) which is almost as environment-foely (see
>> your next sentence) as a 2-5 years old Trabant:) And has much more
>> mechanical problems. And spare parts are almost 10-times more expensive.
>
><<<<<<<<<<<< The original idea was to offer the 2 year old former taxis
>with the new four-cycle engines to owners of Trabants (even exchange!)
>
>This is waht I mean about greed --- you see how it got changed???
>
> >
I still can't see a "big deal" in it. An average taxi (in Hungary) runs
about 100.000 km a year (I drive about 40.000 km a year as a service
engineer). So in two years it is 200.000 km. I don't think somebody with a 3
years old Trabant, with about 20.000 km wants to change to a Ford, Fiat or
anything else with 10 times more km. Trabant owners were (and are)
definitely not rich, and Trabants are cheap and easy to maintain. No valves,
no driving-gear, no motor oil, oil filter (no oil and filter change
required), no gasoline-pump (gravity does it), no cooling fluid (no problems
with cooling as long as the engine works it drives the cooing fan), etc. And
if your Trabant breaks down, you can get it back for at most 10.000 Fts. In
case of Ford, Fiat or other western car you can get one headlight for
10.000Fts. I would not call "greedy" a man who don't want to change his
cheap car for a used and expensive one.
It's true that Trabants are not good at saving environment, but believe me,
most of Trabant owner really can't afford even to maintain a western car
(BTW: you must pay tax for owning a car according to its weight: Trabant:
about 600 kg, western cars at least 800kg, "used taxis" are rather bigger,
1000 kg. If you want to drive a car, you must have obligatory insurance,
which is based on the engine - Trabant is 600 cubic cm, other cars at least
twice as much. So in comparsion with Trabant a used taxi costs at least
twice as much, even if it stays in the garage.)

So it would be a big deal rather for those who can give away their used
cars, playing "good big brother":)

Lajos