Hi!

   I'd like to know, from someone living in Hungary, what your view of
americans is.  In other words, as an american tourist, what should I
expect?

Sophia

Roman Kanala  > wrote:

>There are several imprecisions in the Mr. Pannon's comment:              
>
>Mrs. Szurek probably is not Slovak because of weak knowledge of          
>basic facts about the country's realities. The name suggests a Polish    
>origin.

The Polish sounding name did not escape my attention, either.  However,
her Gazdik-like tone made me ignore the possibility of her not being of
Slovak background.  The name can be explained with a Polish father and
a Slovak mother, too.
In addition, Hungarians and Poles have been traditional friends and that
also makes her identification with Slovaks more likely than with Poles.

>She is not in Slovakia, as she is writing from a US university. Her      
>contribution to the Slovak-L mailing list was appraised by an obnoxious       
  
>This is to say, please don't exaggerate.

I could also say, please don't trivialize.

Regards,
Joe

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Fri, 2 Aug 1996, Denes Bogsanyi wrote:
>[...] Moreover a researcher in Japan has shown 
> on the basis of biological testing that there is genetic connection 
> between the two.

 But then detailed results have also shown relation with much of the rest
of Asian, as well as European gene pool ;-) (I believe I posted about one
such article a couple of years ago, but damned if I could find the
reference now ;-()... It appears that we Hungarians are by far the most
mixed lot that got analyzed! 

- --
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!


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 wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> 
> I've recently been talked to an acquaintance regarding the origin of the
> Hungarian people.  And from there we went through the usual ones about coming
> from Siberia, the Ural mountains, Sumeria, etc..  He however mentioned some-
> thing as well as a "theory" as crazy as it sounds about Hungarians originatin
g
> in Egypt!  Since I rather quickly dismissed this as a possibility and had nev
er
> even heard of it myself I tuned out rather fast.  Then when talking another f
riend
> of my she told me that her father also had heard of this and was rather convi
nced
> of this.  Since I haven't really gotten a chance to talk to these people sinc
e, and
> don't expect to for a while, I was wondering if anyone may have heard of this
> and if they have could they please explain how the heck this is possible?
> 
> Thanks,
> Peter

     Yes, there are a few villages, I think on the lower course of the 
Nile(or in the delta?), who are descendants of Hungarians taken as 
slaves by the Turks in the 16th century, who kept alive the legend of 
their Hungarian ancestry, being called "Magyarabs"(ie "magyar arabs"). 
Actually I met accidentally a young couple in June in Budapest. They 
told me they are Magyarabs. They did not speak Hungarian, I exchanged a 
few English words with them, and that was all.
Regards, PK

Dear Marja & Jary


M.L.Savontaus/Jary:

 " Of course, OLD MYTHS ARE INTERESTING, but WE SHOULD BE ABLE(Not ‘WE', 
YOU)  to put them in the right perspective, not regard them as ‘CREDIBLE 
SOURCES', especially not those, which clearly are nothing more than 
emotionally loaded prejudice".

M.Egorov:

" The sources I presented are far from being a legend or MYTH. All 
chronicles ARE REFERRING to the Hungarians(and implicitly FINNS) as a 
people who came from Siberia.Even if we ignore  what the chronicles tell 
us,we still have the LANGUAGE (which is a non European language and it 
has a lot in common with other Turkic or Asian languages). We also have 
the name of the TRIBE (HUN- GAR), given by the neighboring states. This 
name also indicates a relation to MONGOLS, HUNS,TATARS, TURKS. We also 
have the name MAGYAR, which also indicates the same roots.We also know 
that the HUNGARIANS used to leave in TENTS as late as 12th. 
Century(recorded).Also remember that non of the Europeans used TENTS, 
Romans (Greek & Latin), Germanics(Gots,Vikings, Lombards, etc.), Celts, 
Tracians, Slavs.
You are suggesting to" put these sources in the RIGHT perspective"?.
I know that the right perspective for a HUNGARIAN is to ignore totally 
what the Chronicles tell us. This approach was possible in Germany during 
WW2, when German archeologists found 2000 years old pottery ornamented 
with the German Swastikas.(Or Nazi swastikas how the Germans like to call 
it).

       In the past noble titles( baron, count, duke, etc.) were sold to 
those rich people who had the money but did not have a name.Nations try 
to do the same, Germany for example  became Holy Roman Empire(Although 
they were NOT Holy, NOT Roman, and certainly NOT an Empire).Russians 
elevated MOSCOW to a higher level (THIRD ROME).Every body likes Rome.
The same is the case of HUNGARY and FINLAND.You guys want to be called 
EUROPEANS. 
(Although your language is NON EUROPEAN, your name is NON EUROPEAN, your 
culture WAS NON EUROPEAN, your RACE IS NON EUROPEAN).

M.L.Savontaus/Jary:

"Archeological and linguistic results suggest, that Fenno-Ugrian 
languages have been spoken in Europe longer than Indo-European languages.
No genetic features were found, which would be common for Europe's Fenno-
Ugrian nations and Asian nations..."

M. Egorov:

"First we must know who conducted these researches(Hungarians,Finlandians?
).
Than, we must know how many scientists will approve your theory?(world 
wide).
Personally I consider your opinion EXTREMELY STRANGE. And remember that 
the so called 
"Mitochondrial DNA" IS NOT CONSIDERED A RELIABLE METHOD TO ESTABLISH 
WITH CERTAINTY THAT YOU (FINNS) ARE AN EUROPEAN RACE.

M.L.Savontaus/Jary:

"Research on mitochondrial DNA supports the assumption of a western, Indo-
European genotype for the Finns. This view conflicts to some extent with 
conclusions made on the basis of research on nuclear genes. In these 
studies Finns differ significantly from most other Europeans".

M. Egorov:

"In research business when you have conflicted results of these type, you 
do not publish them"

In article >,
 > wrote:
>Really now?  I thought most regular HUNGARY posters were quite aware of
>my stopping posting there due to Hugh's introducing a semi-censorship
>there a while back. 
Well I wasn't aware, sorry. 

>It's a principle with me not to post to political
>Internet forums if they are censored in any way.  Moderation is just a
>euphamism for censorship, IMHO.  I only see it justified in
>non-political (professional, etc.) forums and lists.
Fine, let's agree to disagree. 

>But since my word about the existence of such hard proof didn't cut it
>for you anyway, your mentioning it in HUNGARY could only be construed as
>a backstab at me where I cannot answer you.
Answer me here if you will.  

>Are you really that naive to expect Argone's admission that they forced
>NPA's resignation?  From the evidence presented to me, it was clear that
>they strongly suggested it to protect his unemployment benefits at least.
[Story about how you resisted a similar suggestion omitted]

Perhaps they did suggest it just as you say. But "strongly suggesting" is very
different from "forcing": your own personal story proves that suggestion of
this sort can be resisted. By the way, I strongly suggest that you explain
your reasoning about moderation=censorship on HUNGARY or in a private message
to the listowner. 

>>I can only hope you are right and the ADL is involved. In that case they must
>>be reading the net and must have seen the collection of NPA quotes that 
>>Ga1bor Farkas just posted to HUNGARY. Jesus, but NPA is one sick puppy. 
>
>They don't have to be reading the Internet.  They only need to get a
>copy of letters that went to DOE.  
Joe, you don't seem to get this. Unless these letters have extensively 
quoted from NPA, and the DOE (or the ADL, or whover) could _verify_ that 
these quotes are not fakes, that the material indeed originated with NPA, 
such letters are nothing. Tomorrow I could write a letter to Boeing with 
the most outrageous lies about you, just as you could write to IBM. Such 
letters would no doubt trigger an investigation at both places, but an
accusation is just an accusation, and we are both innocent until proven 
guilty. 

>Or if the letter to DOE found somebody 
>high in the DOE hierarchy with a Jewish sounding name, that itself would be 
>enough to speed the process that was evident in NPA's case.
Ah, but I'm sure it found somebody. Them Yids are everywhere, and the DOE is
just an arm of the ZOG anyway:-)

>It was high time to quit that saga after your (and others') futile
>attempt to throw in some red herring hints.
After such a nice farewell from you I just had to come back. That NPA resigned
voluntarily is not a red herring, it is a fact. Argonne no doubt has on file
his letter of resignation to prove it. If NPA wants to prove otherwise, he'll
have to go in court and demonstrate that his signature on that letter was 
coerced or forged.

>> I quit reading FORUM years ago, 
>
>Or more accurately you were benned by Hollosi himself after your
>despicable attempt to drag in PA's unrelated professional correspondence
>to "prove" your point. 
Joe, this is the biggest piece of nonsense I've ever seen. I was never banned
from FORUM to my or to Hollo1si's knowledge. I stopped reading/writing FORUM
at the time of the secession, but in fact on a few occasions I went back there
to correct PA's outrageous lies on this "professional correspondence" matter,
check out FORUM #693,695,697. As you are no doubt aware, Hollosi does not
leave bansihment to the poster, he sets up the software so that those banned
can't post. The mere fact that I posted (and still can post) to FORUM proves
that I was not (am not) banned.

Why did you pick up this old thread I have no idea, but the readers interested
can go back and check the facts for themselves. There was no "attempt" to drag
the "professional correspondence" in, there was full success. In fact Hollo1si
was kind enough to relax the length limit for the occasion, and actually
published my posting in the slot usually reserved for his editorial notes (see
FORUM #508), which is the exact opposite of banning someone.

What is remarkable about this is the same pattern of behavior that we observed
on the earlier occasion: it is enough to announce that I'm getting out of the
debate and it's "nincs otthon a macska, ta1ncolnak az egerek". You think you
can get away with anything just because I'm no longer in the debate, but I
reserve the right to return to the debate to correct outright lies about
me. Sorry Joe, this "more accurately you were banned" is either a fully
conscious lie, or, worse yet, you are getting senile.

>To my recollection NPA seldom if ever initiated those threads.  He only
>responded to something he found inaccurate or misleading. 
I have no idea one way or another. Fortunately, he used to write very little
to the lists that I read. Unfortunately, he is now all over the map. 

>Besides,
>nobody appointed you to be the central authority to determine who is an
>anti-semite and what constitutes anti-semitism.  So yours is just one
>opinion as is mine.  
Very true. And my opinion is that NPA is antisemitic to the point of sickness.
It is an opinion that appears to be shared by many readers, but obviously not
on FORUM, where (according to a FORUM regular) nobody ever called NPA an 
antisemite. 

>And in my opinion he is not an anti-semite.  Maybe a
>bit obsessed by the topic, but not an anti-semite. But then, you branded
>me an anti-semite, too, so the label coming from you doesn't mean much, 
>anyway.
You mean defense coming from you doesn't mean much anyway: if you are an
antisemite it would be hard for the rest of us to take your vouching for him
very seriously. But there is a difference. I saw you engaging in tangential
antisemitism, really nothing more than what is common to the Hungarian far
right. But NPA is more of a true conspiracy nut, with the Jews/Commies (and
perhaps the masons? I don't remember him pronuncing anything on this weighty
issue) responsible for all the world's (and Hungary's) ills.

>As to defending him, well ... maybe I just take that often cited phrase
>by the liberals more seriously than you: "I may disagree with you, but
>would fight for your right to state your opinion."  Or something to that
>effect.
I actually offered my help, saying that if Noam Chomsky can lend his name to
holocaust-denial I can certainly lend mine to blood libel.  The problem was
that NPA had no idea who Noam Chomsky is and what the hell I was talking
about. Too bad you don't read HUNGARY, you would have enjoyed this exchange.

>I think if such honorable people in FORUM, as Drs. Szegedy and Rubin
>condemned the denunciation of NPA to his employers, while you and your
>cohorts are defending the action, you are in real minority with your
>opinion.  Your methods resemble the methods of defense attorneys in rape
>trials where through sophistry they are trying to blame the victim for 
>the crime.  Shame on you! 
What victim? Let's leave NPA and antisemitism for a moment, and think of
something that you and I can both agree is criminal, let's say kiddie porn. If
I recive such, I reserve the right to complain to the management of the place
where it originated. Now take soemething that is not criminal, just
annoying. I often receive unsolicited commercial messages, and I have always
complained to , and more often than not with success,
meaning the spammer got his/her account terminated.  Now you will say NPA is
not a spammer and the analogy doesn't hold. I agree he is not a spammer (he
doesn't send out unsolicited mass mailings, and his messages are not
commercial). True, but he is still not a "victim".

Let's say you turn your garage into a little store, selling flowers: you make
a new entrance, buy equipment for $10,000, and have a nice little store that
people actually like. Your business is booming until an irate neighbor reports
you to the City Council that you have violated the zoning. The Planning
Commission, the Architectural Review Board, or whoever, investigates and finds
that indeed you are running a commercial establishment in a residential zone.
So they force you to close down, restore the garage to original state, and
maybe even pay some fines. You lose your nice business, and of course you lose
the investment you made in remodeling and equipment.  You are peeved as hell
and you blame the neighbor who reported you.  But you haven't had these losses
because of the neighbor: you had these losses because you operated outside the
regulations in the first place! If NPA is a "victim" he is a victim of his own
actions.

Argonne says NPA resigned voluntarily. If this is true, he came to no harm
whatsoever: at some point in his life he decided to pack up and leave (as so
many people do on so many occasions) and run a soap opera on the net, with
your willing assistance. If it is false, he needs to sue Argonne and/or his
former union, and get reinstated. In that case he should be in court filing
papers. Since any lawyer would advise any client against widespread discussion
of a pending case, I conclude that he has actually no intention to sue
Argonne, he just plays this soap opera to maximize the net.publicity and turn
himself into a hero in the eyes of some. Joe wake up, NPA is neither a hero,
nor a victim of anybody else.

Andra1s Kornai

In article > Pastor,
 writes:
>Tudna valaki nekem egy nyugati orszagba bevandorlo vizumot
>szerezni?
>Kerem azonnal ertesitsen!

A sult galambot sulve vagy rantva kered a szadba ?

Csak megjegyzem olyan csoportokba postaztad a leveledet,
(amely meg magyarul is nehezen olvashato: ha ekezetesen
akarsz irni, akkor ne 7 hanem 8 biten tedd), amelyek anya-
nyelve angol es nemet. 

Minden tisztelet nelkul,
Tamas

Alternative Medal Count
                 ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
   
   as of July 30/96
                                  
                             Thousand          GDP
                 No. of       People       $US Billion
   Country       Medals      per Medal      per Medal
   ^^^^^^^       ^^^^^^      ^^^^^^^^^     ^^^^^^^^^^^

   Australia       31           591              10
   Cuba            15           729               0.93
   Hungary         12           859               4
   Romania         15         1,546               4
   France          31         1,874              33
   Canada          14         2,031              44
   United States   64         4,122              99
   Japan           10        12,550             254
   Britain          9         6,477             108
   China           32        37,596              81

The US is  a going to be a color blind society.
 And then will unleashes the offensive to demolish
 the notion of a national state.

Dear Karen:

Here is the basic translation of the correspondence:
Per your request, I'm informing you that our records do not show 
the names of Demjen Samuel and Seres Barbara, therefore I will be unable 
to supply you with the requested information.

Since your grandfather most likely served in the Armed Services of the 
Astro-Hungarian Monarchy, I suggest that you contact the Armed Services 
Letter Archives in Vienna.  Their address is:  Kriegarchiv, Wien VII. 
Stiftgasse 2.

Furthermore I'm attaching correspondence received in your behalf.  Please 
send a $14.00 money order made payable to the US Embassy to cover the 
forwarding costs of the correspondence.

Karen, I hope this will suffice for you.  I wish you good luck in 
locating your family history.  Unfortunately records are very hard to 
come by since the wars took a toll on all historical records.  You might 
try you luck with researching cemetaries in the towns where your 
relatives lived.  I found them to be a great help, since the old family  
headtones can give you additional information to go on.  In most cases 
husband, wife,children,siblings, etc. are listed on the headstones if 
they're buried there, which is very common.

In article >,  () writ
es:
> Roman Kanala  > wrote:

>>She is not in Slovakia, as she is writing from a US university. Her      
>>contribution to the Slovak-L mailing list was appraised by an obnoxious      
   
>>This is to say, please don't exaggerate.
> 
> I could also say, please don't trivialize.

Yes, of course. Say you can. 

However, what I wanted to point out was that you brought here a
confused contribution of a little Polish girl that you passed for
gazdik-caliber fascist crap (since you named the obnoxious fascist
specimen;-)

Mr. Gazdik's contributions, on the other side, are really frightening
and deserve attention. These should not be minimized, especially knowing
how welcome are attacks against Magyars and Czechs on the Slovak-L
list courtesy of the listowner who himself happens to be a fascist.

On the Internet, you will find a majority of serious, honorable people,
though some very young Slovaks still may be confused by nationalist
slogans they listen everywhere, everyday.

I would only wish, Jozska, you not to increase the tension yourself
and to contribute to national polarisation. There are more things
that unite Slovaks and Magyars than those which separate them. To
overcome the mistrust and suspicion, it's better to avoid contributing 
to it.

Roman Kanala

On 2 Aug 1996, Gabor Barsai wrote:

> This is due to a little known fact: that actually, the magyars are from the 
> planet Zog-3, from the Gworzak stellar system. Over 1000 years ago, giant
> pterodactyls delivered them to Earth.

They were exiled actualy, for unspeakable crimes against their own kind.

> They were deployed in the Carpathian basin. Using their nefarious mind
> scrambling powers, the magyars managed to impose their language, and their
> version of their origins, on the locals.

Of course resorting to the same murderous behaviour, that got them
'deployed' in the first place, helped in a small measure.

> Thus, it was actually quite easy and painless.

Their victims may differ ;=(

m. cristian

In article >,
(Miecz) wrote:

>   
> >
> >
> >>  Don't be a fool, fellow. There are no differensies between "bydlo"
> from any countryes.
> >>Nick.
> >
>   
>  Do not be foolish! Almost all immigrants from the former Soviet Union
> are Jews. They have to pretend to be Russians, Ukrainians, etc. They
> are even angry that they have to mask their genuine identity that in
> fact they are Jews. I have not met in the United States any immigrant
> from Russia who was not Jewish. For example only Jews from the former
> Soviet Union, Poland, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Romania, Hungary and
> from other Middle and Eastern European States may get political asylum
> on base of preassumed anty-Semitism existing in these countries from US
> Immigration Service. 

Not true. I personally know of one couple who recently ('95) received 
asylum for religious persecution and know a second case whose asylum is 
being appealed by the INS after the judge humiliated the INS case worker 
in open court for trying to deny the asylum request. In both cases the 
religion was Byzantine Catholicism and they came from Romania. 

Even today if you document your case well and there is a rational basis 
there are other grounds you may be admitted on other than having jewish 
parents.

>  Therefore United States taxpayers are paying enormous amount of
> dollars for services granted to these immigrants. 

Actually not true in the two cases above. Both of them worked almost 
immediately and have not taken government services other than INS ones 
which I assure you they would have been happy to do without. As immigrant 
access to these services is likely to be sharply curtailed by new laws 
in the near future, this argument against immigration will be reduced to 
its proper irrelevancy.

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!
These posts are not official PNT-cd policy unless specifically marked as such.

g  > wrote:
>>eons ago, George! ;-)
>
>Indeed. :-)  Actually, a movies (in the sixties?). But, heck, who was Tenkes? 
For I only 
>vaguely remember Sinkovits in another role...

Actually, the Tenkes Kapitanya was played by Ferenc Zenthe if memory
serves.  I also seem to recall his female co-star being Ildiko Pecsi.
She was quite cute at that time.  But then, I did not know about her
political leanings ... ;-) 
>
Joe

Roman Kanala > wrote:
>
>However, what I wanted to point out was that you brought here a
>confused contribution of a little Polish girl that you passed for
>gazdik-caliber fascist crap (since you named the obnoxious fascist
>specimen;-)

I haven't seen the proof yet that she was a little Polish girl.
Have you?

>I would only wish, Jozska, you not to increase the tension yourself
>and to contribute to national polarisation. There are more things
>that unite Slovaks and Magyars than those which separate them. To
>overcome the mistrust and suspicion, it's better to avoid contributing 
>to it.

Fine, Roman, so what are you actually saying?  That Kristina's post was
atypical of Slovak contributors (I didn't say "all Slovak contributors",
mind you), or that such posts should be just ignored as if they did not
exist?  If I recall, even you used to bring to the attention of
Hungarian Internet forums such cases that could only be embarrassing to
Slovakia and Slovaks in general.  Having a change of heart?

Joe