Bill Vaughan ) wrote:
:  (Daniel von Brighoff) wrote:

: >You're missing a crucial element of language reconstruction:  They have to
: >be *regular* similarities, the results of *exceptionless* sound changes.
: >Anybody can find resemblances between sets of words; finding patterns of  
: >correspondences is considerably tougher. ...

: AFAIK not all scholars would agree. Certainly Greenberg et al believe
: or believed that multilateral comparison of word lists was a valid
: technique for detecting relationships between languages. Working out
: the precise _lautlehre_ (sound change rules) is principally important
: for bilateral comparisons, or so I have read.

Multilateral comparison of word lists is a valid *starting point* for
detecting relationships between languages (at least if the word lists are
accurate). However, once one has identified a certain number of
similarities suggestive of a relationship between certain languages, then
one must take the next steps, i.e. establishing regular correspondences
between individual sounds within the posited cognates within these
languages, determining the precise phonological contexts in which these
correspondences apply, and then reconstructing plausible, natural sound
changes which could have given rise to such correspondences in those cases
where the words being compared are not identical. (If only a small
percentage of words in the languages being investigated are identical or
similar and if regular correspondences cannot be established, then the
apparent similarities may safely be ascribed to borrowing or to chance).
After such bilateral comparison of several languages has indicated a
genetic relationship between them, one can then proceed to reconstruct
proto-forms from which the cognates in these languages originally derived. 

The list of alleged cognates drawn from Finnish, Hungarian, Turkish,
Sumerian etc. has drawn so much criticism from linguists precisely because
a genetic relationship between these languages was proposed although the
data given were inaccurate and no effort was made to go beyond a surface
comparison of the words in question. It may possibly be that the languages
in question are related, but this is *not* indicated by the pertinent word
lists.

(snip)
: Working from reconstructions is second-generation research --
: one step further removed from the raw data, with all the
: ambiguities, errors, and occasional prejudices that are accidentally
: embedded in the reconstruction. It is akin to what the statisticians
: call "data-mining" -- very useful, if you are very careful.

This is correct. One needs to consider *both* modern forms, e.g. dialect
forms, and reconstructions of proto-forms when undertaking comparative
research. 

--
Richard Krause
Adept Translators
Edmonton, Canada
email: 

MK wrote:

:In > Cluster User wrote:

:>
:>it is a tedious effort, especially if you have standards.
:>the fact that an alternative has not appeared in USENET
:>doesn't prove anything. 

:But, this is besides my point. I had stated (above) that
:my argument was a "relative" one and was made specificly
:against certain people's arrogant and empty claims...

the most arrogant and empty claim was made by polat kaya,
who reproduced something quite close to the "sun language
theory".

:I could expect others to miss my point, but not you who
:has been debating with me regularly for quite a while...

??

:The guy had made sure he ended his alternative languages
:list with "Kurdish" and a smiley... Later he didn't miss

paradox's point about the word for father not being
relevant was well taken.
polat kaya fell for  it, took the point seriously and began 
elaborating on it.

:the opportunity to talk about Turks calling some people
:Kurds because of the "kart kurt" sounds they made in the
:snow, some "scientific" study by an "official scientist"
:or some garbage along those lines...

the garbage was that expounded by polat kaya and some
other authors in turkey.

:To me, he just seemed too eager to grab the opportunity

no, he made a remark whivh would have remained such if
polat kaya had not made his absurd claims.

:to blow some hot air. Thus, I challenged him to provide
:an alternative list, with his own choice of arternative

which as I said is irrelavant. the example in question was 
non sequitur, and crackpot theories hinge on such examples.

:languages, and asked him to name which official Turkish
:scientist and study (or whatever it was) he was talking
:about...

I don't blame him for not remembering the name of crackpots,
but they do exist, politically motivated ones too. In the 80's 
the author of "erzurum agzInda osmanlIca kelimeler" (perhaps 
"sozcUkler" - "ottoman words in erzurum speech") was one of 
them, as can be seen from the title. the loanwords were hardly 
the literary loans of the ottoman period, the attempt was to 
show that kurdish - persian cognates were just that. I too 
didn't bother to remeber the name of the author, and I am not 
about to make a trip to turkey just for that.

:Unless I somehow missed them, I haven't seen a response
:to those requests yet. Of course, this doesn't make the

because your "requests were irrelevant. 

:Sumerian-Ural/Altaic list more than what it is. But, it
:sure "*does prove*" that among the participants of this
:thread, and specificly the ones who brought it up, have
:thus far been unable to offer any alternative list...

again that is irrelevant. such things are too tedious
for a newsgroup debate.

:Why not stop trying to read between the lines, and take
:this for what it is...?

I am only answering your post.

:MK

Why don't you just marry your girlfriend, then problem solved.

On Mon, 20 Jan 1997, H. KAYALI wrote:
[...]

Miguel Carrasquer Vidal wrote:

> The curious thing about the native Japanese numbers is the use of
> ablaut to denote the doubled quantity:
> 
>                     Old Japanese:
> 1: hito, 2: futa   (pito", puta)
> 3: mi,   6: mu     (mi, mu)
> 4: yo,   8: ya     (yo", ya)

Anyone remember what Miller said about the Korean system?

	1: han(a)	2: tu(l)

	3: se(s)	4: ne(s)
	5: ta-sôt	6: yô-sôt

	7: ilgop (<*yôl-[*gu]-ôps)
	8: yôdôlp (<*yôl-tu(l)-ôps)
	9: ahop (<*yôl-han(a)-ôps)

	10: yôl

> Miguel Carrasquer Vidal

-Patrick

 wrote:

>Hi
>I looking for the recipe for Longos??
>thanks John

This recipe is from Elek Magyar's, "The Gourmet's Cook Book".

1/2 oz. yeast
6 oz. boiled potatoes
2 lbs. flour
1 oz. salt
oil for frying

Mix the yeast with a little flour and leave to rise.  Grate the
potatoes and work into the sponge.  Leave to rise in a warm place.  A
few hours later work into the flour with a little warm water and add
the salt.  Knead until it no longer sticks to the hands and it is
neither too soft nor too firm.  (A little flour or water may be added
to achieve this, but very carefully and in very small quantities.)
Leave to rise for several hours in a warm place.  Form into as many
small buns as the required number of langos.  Heat the oil in a frying
pan.  Flatten each bun, prick with a fork in a few places and fry in
the hot oil on both sides.  They can also be baked on a grid or
broiler.  Eat at once.

Enjoy!

Wayne Bell

Art has to move you and design does not,
unless it's a good design for a bus.
David Hockney (b. 1937), British artist.
e-mail: 
http://library.uwaterloo.ca:80/~jgszalai/WAYNE.HTM

Mikor fejlesztik mar a penz-egeszseges teniszt vilagszintre
Magyarorszagon? Mi magunknak is van mar eleg 200-on aluli jatekosunk, mind
ferfi mind no. Ra kene jatszani hogy nehany vilagverseny megrendezese
elinditson egy bizonyos tenisz-fanatizmust a fiatalok kozott. Arrol nem is
beszelve, hogy mit jelenthetne egy-egy kimagaslobb magyar siker!

Balazs