I am just curious on my own usual un-expert way, how this
privatisation to happen? As you state, there is no Hungarian
strata able to invest/buy companies however reasonable the price.
So an optimal privatisation should mean large, secure
multinationals stepping in, as we don't want small adventurers
neither. Which means that local or even national decisionmaking/
democracy in economic questions are basicly the figment of
imagination of politicians/voters.
(That is the argument of some here in the UK about the EC,
that it is basicallly for the convenience of the overpowering
multinationals, the social benefits won't be of future consideration
even if at present that can be the impression. The eurosceptic tories
are just chauvinistic and can't even see their own economic interest,
captains of commerce and industry are all for integration.)
Eva Durant wrote:
>Actually, there was an article in the Guardian yesterday
>and there is (new?) research resulted in Xia..(I forgotten
>the name of the province in China, deep south-Eastish, near
>Caucasian chain of mountains I suspect) allegedly there are
>7000 people left from the tribe of "ugars", who have the pentatone
>folk tradition, tunes as from Bartok's collection.
I suspect the province is very far from the Caucasian mountains, much
closer to the Altaj chain. The province - if I am right - is called
Xiangjing. It is the North-Eastern province of China, bordering
Kazakhstan, Russia and Mongolia. The tribe has strong shamanistic traditions,
although they converted to Islam. They folk music uses the pentatonic
scale - just like the traditional Hungarian folk music. (If I am right,
the heptatonic scale is the most common in Northern-China).
take a look if you want
rationality and action ed. by paul k moser
or by any of the papers inthe collected works of ken arrow.
the arriow's theorem is presented in any elementary textbook on welfare
economics or anything else that has to do with choice theory. please
notice that if you can reach me there obviously is an email address in my
you reach anytime with any reply fucntion
On Thu, 22 Dec 1994, Eva Durant wrote:
> There was no e-mail address in your post.
> Would you send a summary of what you are referring to please
> and details of a book/article you think is best.
> > On Thu, 22 Dec 1994, Eva Durant wrote:
> > > what I think is a reasonable explanation. I have to repeat some
> > > of the points, as they are never answered, such as: why do you
> > > think that a system of common ownership based on DEMOCRATIC control
> > > shouldn't work? (I answered the "human nature" crap already...).
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > The answer is:
> > because we already know that no odering of preferences is possible that
> > would be democratic in any reasonable sense (cfr. Arrow's thm and the
> > endless bibliography on the topic.
> > why don't people get some information before preaching nonsense?
> > a.p.PALMA
> > INSTITUTE OF PHILOSOPHY\CENTER FOR COGNITIVE SCIENCE
> > NATIONAL CHUNG CHENG UNIVERSITY
> > 160, San-Hsing, Ming-Hsiung,
> > Chia-Yi 621 TAIWAN, R.O.C.
> > off.ph#+886 5 242-8181
> > FAX# +886 5 272-1203
To follow up the discussion about Hungarian origins, I am including the text
of an interesting article that just appeared in the Feb. 8 International
HUNGARIANS ARE LOOKING EAST, FAR EAST, FOR THEIR ROOTS
By John Pomfret, Washington Post Service
BUDAPEST--Five years after tossing off the cloak of Soviet domination in the
social sciences, Hungarians are again asking a question that has bewitched
them for centuries: Where are our roots?
During Communist times, Soviet scholars backed the idea that the
Hungarians, like the Finns, originated in Russia=B4s Ural Mountains, a
hypothesis that somehow justified Hungary=B4s inclusion inside the Soviet=
But new research has brought that hypothesis into question, and Hungari
are looking even farther east for the sources of their culture.
In Hungary=B4s universities, the study of Inner Asia is booming, buckin
trend throughout Central Europe that favors more practical subjects, such as
computers and business.
Buddhist temples, inquiries into the mysteries of shamanism, epic songs
traditional healing abound in Hungarian cities. Among the rock-and-roll
set, dreams of a nomadic existence and horses from the steppe run through
their raucous tunes.
Two years ago, Eotvos Lorand University in Budapest began offering degr
in Tibetan and Mongolian -- perhaps two of the most obscure languages one
could study in a small Central European country. This year, for the 10
spots in each discipline, the Inner Asian studies department got 80
applications for Tibetan and more than 40 for Mongolian.
"It is flourishing," said Alice Sarkosi, acting head of the department
a noted Mongolian scholar. "When you are 18 years old, a lot of students
are not so interested in economic problems. But they are fascinated by
Hungarians say the revived interest in their roots is partly a result o
the unavoidable growth of patriotism or nationalism following the collapse
of the Soviet bloc, which kept a tight rein on such passions, especially in
Hungary following its failed 1956 uprising against Soviet domination.
Another reason is that with the social sciences now depoliticized,
Hungarians can exercise the natural curiosity they have about themselves.
A self-described ethnic riddle caught in the middle of a triangle of Sl
Latins, and Germans, Hungarians first came to Europe in A.D. 896, moving
into the Carpathian Basin, which contains present-day Hungary, from the
East. From the onset, Hungarians have felt and been a people apart from the
rest of Europe. Their language has just vague similarities with only one
other European language, Finnish, and their nostalgia for a nomadic
existence appears anomalous in settled Europe.
While scholars agree on the date of the Hungarian arrival in Europe, th
have bickered over almost everything else. Hungarian scholars have claimed
variously that their people were descended from Turkic tribes in central
Asia, from the Mongols, from the ancient Finns in Siberia or from a tribe of
their own people who were lost amid the Mongol invasions of the 13th=
The latest research began in 1986, when the Chinese government allowed
Hungarian researchers to study a graveyard about 50 kilometers (about 30
miles) east of Urumchi, the capital of Xinjiang Province to the northwest
corner of China. The cemetery was discovered in 1907 by the Hungarian
explorer Aurel Stein.
Hungarian archaeologists have excavated 1,200 graves and have found obj
similar to ones in Hungarian cemeteries dating from the 9th and 10th
centuries. Weapons placed in the graves are similar, and the methods of
burial and the writing systems are the same.
"In these parts are hidden secrets never before seen," said Istvan Kisz
a Hungarian ethnographer.
Near the grave site, Mr. Kiszely and other researchers happened upon a
small ethnic group called Ugars by the Chinese -- a group distinct from the
more populous Uighurs, a Turkic people that dominates Xinjiang. The
scientists discovered that the Ugars, who number only 9,000, knew 73 songs
that fit exactly into the pentatonic, or five-toned, musical scale that has
made Hungarian folk music famous worldwide.
"We found the last lady who is singing their folk music, and she sings
just like we Hungarians," Mr. Kiszely said.
Mr. Kiszely said he believed that ancient Hungarians left Xinjiang no l
than the 5th century and fell into a pattern of settling down and then
moving westward. As centuries passed, and they mixed with ancient Finns,
their unusual language evolved. Over time, they approached Europe and their