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1 Re: Honfoglalas/conquest (mind)  87 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: We are #1 (fwd) for Charles (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: biological relationship (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
4 ONLINE ORSZAGHAZ BUEK !!!!!! (mind)  111 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Honfoglalas/conquest (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Thu, 29 Dec 1994 01:46:23 GMT IMRE BOKOR said:
--If I may take a whack at this Eva B. and give you a rest---

>that someone makes a mistake is no great problem. most people i have met
>have made mistakes.

--In exasperation, someone once asked William F. Buckley if he had ever
made a mistake.  He replied that it was human to make mistakes and since
he was human, no doubt someday he would make one.

>in this case, the discussion has been concerning the legitimacy of competing
>claims to the same geographical regions. the establishment of a homeland
>has very different meaning from the conquest and arrogation of land and
>the assimilation of the previous population. the difference is crucial to
>the discussion at hand since it bears centrally on the ethical, historical,
>and political claims as well as in determining their justice.
>or would you be happy if we were to speak of the german establishment of
>an extended fatherland to the east of its contemporary borders when referring
>to the events of september 1939 and following?
--Now, Imi, this is an example of what what was called "reading history
backwards" back during the late Medieval period when I was studying history.
First off, in the 10th century there was no established civilization in the
Carpathian Basin.  Only scattered settlements.  No cities, no government
as we understand it today.  No concept, however ignored, of international
law.  No national boundaries, no rules of war.  It wasn't unusual for
mass migrations to take place for one reason or another.  When these
groups found someplace where there weren't too many other people, they
settled.  If they weren't driven off by someone else, they stayed.
The dictionary may say conquest, but in context, establishment doesn't
seem objectionable.  I can't find any historian that says that the
Magyars set out to conquer anybody.  They were fleeing and looking for
a place to light.  They found it and there weren't any strong competing
claims.  It's a real stretch to compare Arpad with Adolph.

>in this case it was a war of aggression, not of defence. that fact would
>not be irrelevant to assessing a people's claim to a region.
--Since most "nation's"--nation in the sense of a people with a sense
of community, not nation in the modern sense--claims are based on a
similar argument, I can't see why you've got your knickers in a twist.

>i have not made any such claim. i have been concerned to find consistent
>criteria to be used to assess and evaluate competing claims. you will no
>doubt recall the question i have frequently posed but have yet to see
>answered, viz. do those the contributors whose postings i have
>challenged willing to see the criteria and arguments thay apply to
>hunagry applied universally? if not, why not?
--My point is that one cannot do that exactly.  The standards of
conduct are different between the 10th and 20th centuries.  One
might as well fault the Hungarians of the 10th century for not having
running water.

>i can't speak for palacki or any-one else, but to my way of thinking the
>great tragedy is the competition and hostility between various peoples,
>be it familial, ethnic or national.

--It is a great tragedy NOW.  Knowing what we know now of history and
having developed some standards of international conduct, however
imperfectly followed they may be.

>phenomenon, but i cannot understand how nominally intelligent and/or
>educated people can continue to behave in such a manner, especially to
>the extent that the prejudices lead to both the condoning of and
>the occurrence of physical violence.
--Sure.  No argument.

>again the word "migration", especially given current discussions in this
>newsgroup, is hardly one which does not carry normative baggage. remember
>that i asked why is the "arrival" or "migration" of "hunagrians"
>not "invasion" and "conquest", whereas those of the turks, or moors
>or germans or russinas, etc. are.
--Because by the time of these latter invasions, there were established
civilizations, not empty spaces sparsely populated.  Seems to me that
by 10th century standards, the Magyar claim is certainly as valid as
that of any other migrating group.  Now had they gone to a place where
there was a clearly established civilization--say Rome or Greece, or
even France, one might make a better argument.  But even then, you
can't apply 20th century standards.

+ - Re: We are #1 (fwd) for Charles (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thomas Breed writes:

>  The young emigrants I know are from upper middle class backgrounds,
> left wing in political leaning, and usually don't vote.  Cynicism through
> indoctrination, you might say.  It's a shame they don't stay.  But I've
> slandered them enough.
Mayhap they need some support to get them going. A few years somewhere else
may give them the education they did not get here.

>                 "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
>                         In the midst of a free world"
Well, that is a pretty good average for me, as far as freedom is concerned.
Now if would have killed somebody he would be out on parole by now.

Happy New Year to All (with warm fire)
+ - Re: biological relationship (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Charles writes:
> --The Black Warrior River floods every year.  Some yuppies have bought
> expensive houses on the flood plain.  We await the spring with real
> curiousity.

> Charles
> Kook, First Class
Ah, so you do have "running water" even if it is not around the year?
I think you are beginning to like your title.

In relation to the #1 discussion, while the US is high on greenhouse gas
output,(in the neighborhood of 1,400 million metric tons (MMT) of carbon
dioxide a year, by far the major portion in energy production), the only
fair way to compare it is on industrial output basis and not on the basis
of absolute values. Our existing forests also pick up about 120 MMT/year of
it and other vegetation growing is pretty efficient carbon dioxide gatherer
also. It could be cut by not burning fossil fuels, but you rarely see folks
with a sign of a lump of coal or the gas flame crossed out in red (crimson
for you) like they do for nuclear reactors.
There is also a large amount of methane released from landfills, although
some places are learning to harvest it. Naturally, where there are no earth
covered landfills, less methane is released.

I do not know which is worse when some folks gather and publish information
and they do not understand that it has to be in context or when they know,
but publish it anyway. Of the three monkeys the ones who do not hear and do
not see still have their mouths uncovered, so I should not be upset.

Have a nice gin for New Year.
+ - ONLINE ORSZAGHAZ BUEK !!!!!! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

=-=-=ELECTRONIC JOURNAL  HU ISSN 1216-0229 =-=-=-= copyright 1990.
   Evzaro a Parlamentben
 jun 28 dec27 336 orat targyalt a parlament, 119 orat altalanos
vitara 28 orat a reszletes vitara forditva, 5 orat egyeb, ugyrendi
kerdesek megvitatasara hasznaltak fel.
mutatja az elozo 13 ora, vegszavazasaokra 1 orat elozoleg 93  oravolt
Ez az arnyeltotolodas, es idocsokkenes azt mutatja, hogy az uj
hazszabaly alapvetoen bevalt.
A parlament munkaja 13 esetbol egy esetet kiveve-bol a bizottsagi
allasfoglalasokra alapozott, de meg nem egyenletes a bizottsagok
ellenorzesi szerepenek kihasznalasa, annak ellenere, hogy julius ota
957 orat uleseztek. Mivel a parl 87 szazaleka bizottsagi tag,
ez a kepviseloi munka idoigenyet noveli. Ennek az idonek mintegy
harmadat, 336 orat tesz ki a  plenaris ulesen torteno reszvetel, de a
hazelnok szerint a hazon beluli munkaidofelhasznalasnak megikabb a
bizottsagi munka fele kellene eltolodnia.
Az egy kepviselore szamitott hozzaszolasok szama  a kovetkezokeppen
alakult MSZP 4.9 hozzaszolas, SZDSZ 7, MDF 19.8
FKGP 29.3 29.2 KDNP 17.5 FIDESZ 15.
   A kormany 66 javaslatot tervezett benyujtani, ebbol 55-ot tudott
megtardyalni a T.HAZ, a rendkivliulessszakra tervezett 14
torvenyjavaslatot mind benyjtottak, de egyet visszavontak.
a parlament 11 javalatot elfogadott, 2 esetben pedig megkezdte
Osszesen 351 onnalo inditvany foduly elo es 2360 nem onallo inditvany
kerult az Orszaggyules ele, a bizottsagok 51 modositoinditvany
adtak at es 221 bizottsagi ajanlas szuletett.
A bejelentett 99 interpellaciobol 6-ot visszavontak, 20 esetben el,
73 esetben nem fogadtak el a miniszteri valaszt, de a haz 73-at elfogadott.
103 azonnali kerdest tettek fel, bar ez a lehetoseggel 12 szazalekben
eltek a kormanypartiak, mig az ellenzek a keredesek  88 szazalekat
nyujtottak be.
Jol lathato, hogy az uj parlament - is - elsosorban torvenyek letrehozasara
forditotta ereje javat. Ezek kozott 3 hataridos torveny volt: az
onkormanyzati valasztasi csomagterv, a potkoltsegvetes, es a
koltsegvetes torvenye. Ezek a surgos feladatok reszben
kenyszerpalyara tereltek a munkat - hangoztatta dr. Gal Zoltan.
Oktober kozepetol mukodo uj hazszabaly bevalt, egy sor kerdesben meg
ertelemezni kellett a hazbizottsagnak, de az uj intezmenyrendszerek
tovabb segitettek a munkat, es erositettek a parlamenti ellenorzo
funkciot. A tovabbiakban ennek erdekeben -is- fejleszteni kell a
bizottsagi ajanlasok intezmenyrendszeret.
A het elso felere koncentralo ulesezesi rend a jelenlegi hajszolt
evekenysegnek is eleg, de elkezpelheto egy kesobbi nyugalmasabb
idoszakban mas munkarend is.
Csupan egy alkalommal nem volt hatarozatkepes a T.Haz, de nem a
megjelenesek alacsony szama miatt, (az ellenzeki kpeviselok
kivonulasarol van szo, mely az onkormanyzati valasztasokat nodosito
torveny szavazasasanal tortent meg - a szerk.).
A parlament egeszeben a szakertoi hatter szerepe is megnott.
A nemzetkozi parlamenti kapcsolatok kiegyensulyozottan, harmonikusan
fejlodtek tovabb. 5 hazelnoki talalkozo volt mas orszgok parlamentjeinek
elnokevel, 3 parlamenti elnok vezette delelgatio utazott kulfoldre,
de csak 5 alkalommal kerlut sor bizottsagok kiutazasara kulfoldi
parlamentekbe, igaz 24 kepviselo vett reszt rajtuk.
39 alkalommal 99 fo vett reszt latogatason nemzetkozi szervezetek
meghivasara, emellett 4 alakalommal 6 fo vett reszt valasztoasokon,
Sok allamfo es miniszter fordult meg a parlamentben. Az intenziv
kacsoltattartas jol segiti az EU integraciot es a szomszedos
orszagokkal torteno kapcsoltok fenntartasat, illetve javitasat.
Szamithatunk a csatlakozasban a januar elsejevel belepo uj
tagorszagok tapasztalataira is.
  Valoszinu tovabbra is fokent torvenyhozo parlamentunk lesz,
erositeni kell az Orszaggyules egyeb  funkcioi  is, kulonosen a Haz
ellenorzo feladatainak ellatasat.
   Jo lenne tobb politikai vitanap szervezese -mondta Gal Zoltan. Az
Elnok ur e teren ket javaslattal el, az egyik az Europai Uniohoz
torteno csatlakozas, az allami szervek beszamoltatasat is beleertve.
Fontos az orszaggyules adta nyilvanossag, es a sajto szerepenek
kihasznalasa is hangoztatta a hazelnok.
A masik vitanapot a kozbiztonsag helyzeterol javasolja megtartani a
hazelnok, kulonosen az uj rendoresegi torveny tapasztalatainak fenyeben.
 Elsosorban a parlamenti munka es a parlamenti partok kozos erdeke a
parlament tarsadalmi megitelesenek javitasa, ezzel erosebben kell
foglalkozni. Sokan nem ismerik a parlamenti lehetosegeit, es
feladatkoret. Fontos a realis, pozitiv varakozasok elebe menni. Pl.
a kapott levelek ozone, de meg az is, hogy ide jarnak a Parlament ele
tuntetni, azt mutatjak hogy az allampolgarok egyre kedvezobb
elvarasokkal fordulnak az Orszagyules munkaja fele.
Erositeni kell a bizottsagi vitak rendszeret, hogy a legfontosabb,
nagyhordereju kerdesek sorsa nagyreszt mar a bizottsagokban eldoljon.
    1995-re tervezett KULKAPCSOLATOK
  Majusban a NATO orszagok es megfigyelok reszvetelevel az Atlanti
Szovetseg torteneteben nem brusszeli, hanem "hazonkivuli ulesre"
kerul sor, melynek szintereul Budapestet valasztottak.
  Tervezik a kornyezo orszagok magyar kisebbsegi szerveinek
meghivasat is, mint ahogy ezt az RMDSZ eseteben korabban tettek.
Egyedulallo es fontos a deli szunetben tartott sajtotajekoztatok
rendszere, es  tern tovabbra is varjak a sajto intenziv reszvetelet.

                                      ORCZAN, Csaba

   Tozsdei collumna:                 
   Parlamenti tudositasok magyarul:  
              in english :           

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