> Felado :  [Canada]
> Kedves Kornai Andras,
>
> Thank you for your private note to my statement on the nature of the events
> in 1956 in Hungary.
The only reason I sent it as a private note was because it looked as if you
entered this debate without seeing the first. It was a lengthy debate,
with the abbreviated version of my own postings already several hundred lines,
not to speak of everybody else's postings.

> I took no offense because our views differ.
This already sets you apart from the majority of those who participated. As
a friend of mine told me at the time, I obviously touched a nerve.

> The only
> annoying thing in your note are the accents, all those ones and twos etc.
Watch out, I'll send you my standard notice on the subject!-)

> There is no common agreement amongst social scientists on what constitute a
> "revolution" or a "war of independence". Politicians especially use these
> words to suit their aims. How do you measure the will of the people? There
> were no election, no referenda, not even polls in Hungary in 1956.
This is true. Yet from all books, personal reminescences, stories etc. it
seems clear that the revolution united a broad front of people, with very
few holdouts. While they might have differed on a lot of issues ranging from
the proper political system to the restitution of Church-owned lands, it seems
to me that on the issue of national independence, i.e. freedom from Soviet
domination, there was virtually complete agreement.

> And what is a legitimate government? Did anyone recognize the Nagy government
?
I claimed in the FORUM debate that the Nagy government was legitimate, and
was in power by "the will of the people" however hazy these concepts might be.
I agree that such points are questionable, but nobody actually raised this as
a significant objection to my thesis (which wasn't centered on the Nagy
government anyway).

> In the 19th century the Polish people waged several wars of independence
> against Russia. Only a minority of Poles was doing the actual fighting. The
> peasant remained neutral. In October 1956 only a few military units and a
> few civilian groups fought the Russians. Weren't  their struggle approved
> by the majority of the Hungarians? I believe it was.
Approved, yes. Joined, no. This is the crux of the matter.

> The Hungarian
> Revolution and War of Independence did not stop on November 4th. It
> continued by other various means, mainly through a general strike.
I beg to differ. A War of Independence, like any other war, is
conducted by arms. A general strike is an extremely strong signal of
dissatisfaction, but it is not war.

> The government and the people made a wise decision by not sacrificing the
 lives
> of thousands of Hungarians in a futile confrontation once the second
> invasion took place.
Perhaps it was a wise decision. But you can't have your cake and eat
it too: either there was confrontation and sacrifice of thousands of
lives, or there wasn't. My point was, and remains, that military
confrontation was avoided, paramilitary activity was scattered, and in
general there was acceptance of the inevitable rather than a "futile"
War of Independence. The Finns didn't look at the numbers and accepted
the fact that Russia had a much bigger army and much bigger
military-industrial potential -- they fought a War of Independence.

> The War of Independence was fought on a military, political and diplomatic
 level.
Sorry, no. A war presumes warring parties holding different territories,
it presumes frontlines, battles, the whole infernal machinery of destruction.
The only battle ever reported was at Nagykova1csi, a remarkably
isolated place with no strategic value whatsoever. As it happens,
residents of Nagykova1csi (a friend of mine lives there) tend to deny
that any confrontation such as depicted by Be1la Kira1ly took place
there. Be it as it may, a single confrontation is not war. Let us not forget
that Hungary had over a hundred thousand men in its standing army, with
many more trained reservists. Now you will say that that army was controlled
by officiers many of whom were trained in the Soviet Union and were loyal
to the communist cause. True. But it was a sizeable army, and it didn't
confront the Soviet invaders except perhaps at Nagykova1csi.

> The National Guard did little fighting but participated in the
> restoration of order and demonstrated that the new revolutionary
> government was a government with the propers institutions of an
> independent state.
Well before November there was no military enemy to fight. Afterwards
there would have been no shortage of enemy, but there was a shortage
of will to fight. Again, maybe this was a wise decision "okos enged
szama1r szenved" but you can't support the thesis that somehow the
opposite decision was made and there was war, for there simply wasn't.

> The role of the refugees in the October events, which as mentioned earlier
> I characterize as Revolution and War of Independence (in describing 1848 I
> also add the term civil war) ended once they left Hungary. Many of them
> left for a better future, out of fear of renewed totalitarianism and many
> other reasons.
The reason the whole discussion was started on FORUM was the shameless
manner in which some 56 emigres paraded as Freedom Fighters. Yes,
there were genuine Freedom Fighters, and Hungary has every reason to
be proud of them. Yes, some of them stayed and fought until the bitter
end. They were martyrs, heroes, and deserve our praise and gratitude.
But over a hundred thousand people left, and few of them were heroes
(and of course none of them were martyrs). They made their choice between
facing the music or opting out, and sorry, those who opted out can't
expect the same praise and gratitude as those stayed and fought.

> We should, nevertheless, remember that a few played an
> important role in explaining the events to the world, like Bela Kiraly did
> to the United Nations. The departure of a number of actual freedom fighters
> does not diminish their earlier role during the revolution.  There were
> heros amongst them,
Sure there were heroes among them, there is nothing dishonorable about
escaping from a lost battle and preserving yourself for another day.
But the numbers don't add up: over a hundred thousand left, and there
were not a million left behind dead (which is what you would expect
with 10% lucky escapees). In reality, only a fraction of those who
left were involved in armed resistance (let's say 10%) and the vast
majority (let's say 80%) never pretended to be a hero. I admire the
10% and understand the 80%. But there remains another 10% who (a) did
nothing (b) propagated the myth that everybody was part of the heroic
10%.

> but there are few heros in this world and we Hungarians are part of it.
Well this is the central element of the 56 emigre myth that I'm
questioning.  The mere fact of having left the country after the
revolution does not turn one into a hero, to the contrary, chances are
they left because they weren't heroic enough to stay and fight. Please
do not misunderstand my attitude: I'm not *blaming* these people for
failure to fight and die heroically, much as I'm not blaiming anybody
for failure to find a cure for cancer. But only a few 49-ers found
gold in California, and only a few 56-ers were actual heroes.

Andra1s Kornai

Privatization of MVM (Hungarian Electric Co.)should be much more than making
money to balance the budget deficit,and to make millions of dollars in trans-
actions fees from privatization. The Smallholder's Party on november 1,1995
had initiated the parliamentary debate on privatizing the energy sector.
What's really at issue is whether privatization is in the interest of the
Hungarian public.Would the Hungarian public really be better off? That case
hasn't been made! All over the world,public ownership has occured for prag-
matic reason,where there was a perceived public interest.So as in Hungary.
So what about MVM? What's clear is that the public of Hungary,has,for the
most part,been well served by its power company.My father joined MVM in 1928
when Southern-Hungary electrification program started to accelerate.This
program was carried out during the depression years. So don't tell me,that
67 years later,we the Hungarians,can't own MVM any more? We don't have dep-
ression today,we have much better life,than 67 yearsago.Why sell it off then?
MVM is not only one of the largest electrical utilities,it is also one of the
most reliable in Central-Europe.For generations we Hungarians have taken
MVM's reliability for granted.For most of us,except for brief  blackouts,
during WW.II,our electricity has always been there.
Is it because of the debt problem? Even with a limited level of competition
an integrated (monopolistic) MVM offers the best possibility of retiring
debt without transfering costs to either ratepayers or taxpayers.
Toth Laci

Privatization of MVM (Hungarian Electric Co.)should be much more than making
 money to balance the budget deficit,and to make millions of dollars in trans-
 actions fees from privatization. The Smallholder's Party on november 1,1995
 had initiated the parliamentary debate on privatizing the energy sector.
 What's really at issue is whether privatization is in the interest of the
 Hungarian public.Would the Hungarian public really be better off? That case
 hasn't been made! All over the world,public ownership has occured for prag-
 matic reason,where there was a perceived public interest.So as in Hungary.
 So what about MVM? What's clear is that the public of Hungary,has,for the
 most part,been well served by its power company.My father joined MVM in 1928
 when Southern-Hungary electrification program started to accelerate.This
 program was carried out during the depression years. So don't tell me,that
 67 years later,we the Hungarians,can't own MVM any more? We don't have dep-
 ression today,we have much better life,than 67 yearsago.Why sell it off then?
 MVM is not only one of the largest electrical utilities,it is also one of the
 most reliable in Central-Europe.For generations we Hungarians have taken
 MVM's reliability for granted.For most of us,except for brief  blackouts,
 during WW.II,our electricity has always been there.
 Is it because of the debt problem? Even with a limited level of competition
 an integrated (monopolistic) MVM offers the best possibility of retiring
 debt without transfering costs to either ratepayers or taxpayers.
 Toth Laci

Hello,I would like to read Hungarian news via Internet. How do I do it?
I am using lynx and gopher, and I don`t know much about it.
Thank you in advance,
Martika and Zeljko

Here are a few suggestions (in fact, I believe the list below is almost
comprehensive):

News IN HUNGARIAN:

* Batthyany Foundation (daily) <http://www.hungary.com/bla/sajto>;
* Magyar Narancs (weekly)
<http://hix.mit.edu/cgi-bin/ekezet.html/hix/narancs>;

News IN ENGLISH:

* Hungary Report (weekly) <http://www.isys.hu/hrep>;
* Hungary Around the Clock (daily, subscription), contact the Editor,
Desmond McGrath, at >

BTW, if there's any good news source that I missed, please let me know.
Tibor Szendrei

On Sat, 11 Nov 1995, Zeljko Susljic wrote:

> Hello,I would like to read Hungarian news via Internet. How do I do it?
> I am using lynx and gopher, and I don`t know much about it.
> Thank you in advance,
> Martika and Zeljko
>

BREATHTAKING COMPENSATION WITH UNLIMITED FREE TRAVEL

This is an opportunity to team up with a seven year old company that has
handled many FORTUNE 500 companies such as Coca-Cola, Pepsi-Cola, Ford and
General Motors in a unique travel program  International Marketing
Enterprises (I.M.E.) is now making available to the general public, what up
to know, has only been available to companies like the Big 3 Automakers, Coke
and Pepsi.  They are using word of mouth or networking to accomplish this and
are returning 70% of what they take in to those responsible for the
marketing.

WHAT DOES THIS MEAN TO YOU ?

That depends on you.  But, let me put it this way: My upline started in the
program 3 and a half weeks ago and has already earned $38,000.00 (U.S.)

AND, the best thing about this program is that the consumer is the first
winner in this program.  Anyone who joins this program gets unlimited free
accomodations and the cheapest airfare to and from the destinations for 5
full years.  Additionally, every person who joins this program receives seven
travel gift certificates a year that they can give to whomever they like.

If you are willing to start a part-time business from your home and reside in
the United States or Canada this program is available to you.  The cost to
participate in this program is $1000.00 (U.S.). This not only will entitle
you participate in the business opportunity, it gives you membership in the
Dream Vacation Club as well as the Captains Cruise Club.  The Captains Cruise
Club entitles you to deeply discounted cruises all over the world with V.I.P.
treatment.  Although this may sound like  a lot of money, please realize that
your investment can be repayed many times over.  It all depends on you !!
Also, even you do not make one sale to another person, the benefits from the
travel package will far outweigh the cost of joining.

THIS IS A SERIOUS BUSINESS OPPORTUNITY for SERIOUS PEOPLE.

WHAT'S MY NEXT STEP:

1. Call  the following number and listen to a recorded nine minute
presentation that will tell you everything about the opportunity:
1-512-703-6101.

2. Then call the FAX ON DEMAND NUMBER from your fax machine.  That number is
1- 512- 703- 6199.

3. Then e-mail me at JXSU33A @prodigy.com.  Please leave me your
telephone number along with area code and a convenient time to call.  I will
be glad to call you back.

Please follow all three steps in order. SERIOUS inquiries only.  This program
can change your life.  It has already changed mine.

Regards,

Al