||Re: Hungarian History page (mind)
|| 199 sor
||Trying to find?? (mind)
|| 10 sor
||Re: Please help translation (3 Words !) (mind)
|| 29 sor
||Internet cenzura-tervek Magyarorszagon? (mind)
|| 4 sor
||Re: az etikatlan masolas esete (Nemzet c. kiadvany) (mind)
|| 85 sor
||Translators wanted. (mind)
|| 46 sor
|+ - ||Re: Hungarian History page (mind)
Liviu Iordache > wrote:
>Nevertheless, you have suggested that the Hungarian history page,
>Haraszti's contribution included, should be used as a trustworthy
>reference for the historical debates storming so often scr and scm :-)
Did I write that? It doesn't sound like me. I think I wrote
"important", but based on your detailed analysis, I am willing to revise
even that characterization.
>Because you have agreed that
>>His target audience was obviously not historians, but the English speaking
>it seems to me your reference is not the product of a genuine,
>objective, scientific research, but plain propaganda.
Well, considering the time and purpose it was obviously written for,
"counter-propoganda" would be a fair characterization.
>Now, I don't think there is something wrong with good propaganda, but,
>bad news, Haraszti's propaganda is bad propaganda. Any objective
>Western reader would become suspicious learning from Haraszti that
>ancient Romanians were
> "degenerated Romans" that "did not reveal the proud, sophisticated
> characteristics which was so typical for the legionaries and citizens
> of Urbs Eterna,"
I noticed his use of such adjectives, too, but I think what he really
meant by "degenerated" here is simply something like "diluted" (in a
genetic sense). But I agree with you that the use of such adjectives
does not gain him many friends in the intended audience.
>while, by contrast, ancient Magyars
> "consciously belonged to the great Turanian (Ural-Altaic) people"
Yeap! That's why I wrote earlier "counter-propoganda"; Romanian history
treats this contrast with the opposite sympathy.
>According to Anonymus, Meumorout's people settled in Transylvania long
>before 896. Therefore, the peoples called "Cozars," who inhabited
>Menumorout's lands, even if they were of the race of the Khazars, were
>not the Kavars that joined Arpad's federation.My point is that, based
>on Anonymus, Haraszti's claim that Menumorout was Hungarian is totally
Well, as I indicated earlier, mainline Hungarian history does not view
Anonymus' Gesta as a holy scripture. On the other hand, Boba's research
might spawn some revision in that view of Anonymus in the near future.
>Boba thinks quite the opposite: "Among the sons of Attila the Hun,
>Western sources mention Ellac, Dengizic and, the youngest, Ernak.
>"Ethela" of the Hungarian sources had also several sons; known by name
>are: Chaba and Aladarius." Moreover, the father of Attila the Hun was
>Mundzucus. Hungarian sources, other than Anonymus, name as father of
>Ethela or Atyla a certain Bendekus. Attila the Hun had several wives,
>among those known by name were Ereka or Erykan and Ildiko. The wives
>of "Ethela" of the Hungarian sources were Honoria and Cremild.
>Therefore, your Csaba might be Chaba, the son of Ethela, but probably
>not the son of Attila the Hun.
Since Haraszti was obviously not familiar with Boba's research, he could
not be expected to diverge from what traditionally was the belief:
>Laszlo argued that, based on archeological evidence, after 670 in the
>Carpathian basin two people different in origin coexisted side by
>side: wearers of belts cast in bronze (the Avars) and wearers of belts
>bearing griffin ornaments (Magyars). The question that pops
>immediately in my mind is, how Laszlo knows that the culture of
>griffin belonged to a Magyar-speaking people? According to the same
>fundamentally flawed reasoning, the proponents of the Daco-Roman
>continuity are entitled to argue that 4th century pottery from
>Transylvania belonged to Daco-Roman speakers :-)
Actually, that's an oversimplification. It's been a while since I read
his book on the dual conquest, but if memory serves, the key to his
theory was that those Avar-era pre-Magyar grave sites vere virtually
identical to the ones with the conquest era Hungarian sites. BTW,
Laszlo is an archeologist, not an historian, but I am not 100% on that.
>That puts the
>Vlachs in, or very close to, Transylvania *prior* to the Magyar
>arrival. And that's all we care about, isn't it? :-)
Actually, Haraszti acknowledged the possibility of some Vlachs making
it across the Southern Carpathians even before the arrival of Magyars.
However, as you yourself pointed out with extensive references about a
year ago, the bulk of historical data places their "center of gravity"
gradually shifting northward over time. That "center" was not near
Transylvania at the arrival of Magyars there.
BTW, the Southern Moravia concept is nowhere near being accepted yet
in the historical community, so I don't know what to make of anything
else that's based on that premis.
>Haraszti book, despite its title, is not too much about the origin of
>Romanians. The author is not concerned with revealing the pre-Latin
>ethnic substrate of the Romanians or the area where they originated.
I think you expect too much from such a small book.
>Rather, he focuses on persuading his reader that the cradle of the
>Romanians was not Transylvania.
This was obviously the main reason he wrote it for. But then, you yourself
managed to alianate most of your fellow Romanians to prove the same
>In his introduction (Ch.1) he claims that the goal of his approach is
>not to to deal with the "Daco-Roma continuity." However, he manages
>to contradicts himself immediately (Ch.2), trying to dismiss the
As if it was possible to discuss the history of Romanians without
dealing with the Continuity theory. I, too, wondered what exactly he
tried to say with that.
> Romanization was impossible in Dacia Traiana, his
>argument goes, because the autochthonous population was exterminated
>in a real genocide. He obviously ignores evidence that argue against
>the alleged genocide,
> even if one
>accepts as a proven fact the extermination of the Dacian people, that
>in itself is not a proof against the continuity between the
>present-day Romanians and the colonists of Dacia Traiana.
That itself is not, but in conjunction with the northward migration of
Vlachs it is a strong circumstantial evidence. After all, that's the
most we can speak of here, no? For we are not dealing with absolute
>On the other hand, Haraszti is very vague with respect to the
>pre-Latin ethnic make up of the Romanians. He doesn't care who they
>are as much time as they are somewhere from "the southern parts of the
>Balkans" and not from Transylvania.
That would follow from the limited scope of his book. I also wonder
about his bibliographic references which are mostly pre-WW II. Are you
familiar with many of them? Could he have found the kind of info in
them you find lacking?
>Furthermore, Haraszti's reasoning on this matter seems to be deeply
>rooted in the pseudoscience of phrenology: " The *looks* of most of
>the Rumanians are still Turkish." How can he argue with those who
>think that Romanians still "look" Dacians? :-)
Well, to me Romanians look a lot like Albanians. ;-)
>Haraszti argues that the Vlachs "did not have historical memories"
>regarding their Latin descend. Genuine popular traditions and customs
>speak for the contrary.
Oh, I think he only meant that this current emphasis on Latin ancestry
is a fairly new phenomenon, started with the Transylvanian School around
200 years ago.
> Even more surprising is his claim that ancient
>Romanians called themselves Vlachs.
Yes, he mixes up the name given to them by outsiders with how they
called themselves. But then, Romanians themselves keep changing the
spelling of their own name, too, so that also contributes to the
>ignore, again, the linguistic evidence pointing to the fact that the
>oldest known North-Romanian toponyms, pre-dating the 9th century, are
>situated in the Serbo-Croatian lands.
Just as long as they are not in Transylvania ... ;-)
>It is my opinion that Haraszti does not know the subject he is writing
>about. Just as an example, he is even confused by the genealogy of a
>well-known personality as Vlad the Impaler:
Now that's really embarrassing!
>As I said, his work does not rank high enough to be included in a
>Hungarian History Page.
OK, then what would you suggest instead that is concise and accurate
enough for inclusion in its place? The problem is that most such books
are huge tomes. But not just huge, they would put most readers to sleep
with excessive detail.
In any case, I appreaciate your candid review of the Haraszti book and
wouldn't mind also reading your opinion on the "History of
Transylvania", published by the Hungarian Academy of Sciences in the
early '80s. In the meantime, I would like to see your critique of the
Haraszti book also included on the Hungarian History Web page.
Happy New Year!
|+ - ||Trying to find?? (mind)
Hello! I'm a Hungarian that lives in Vaancouver B.C. Canada,
I'm unfortunately faced with a very horrible situation! I
have a very serious boyfriend in Rakos Csaba and now we have
been apart for 4 months it is Hell to be here again! Anyways
I can"t tell how I love the country as well as the people and
the hongolot! Anyways, I'm writing for your help to find my
boyfriends band there called "Nothin Carrot", If you have heard
of them or seen them play somewhere please tell me about it.
I'm 19 years old and my name is Nicole Mihaly. If you have any
info on this please send it to Emerich Winkler at
|+ - ||Re: Please help translation (3 Words !) (mind)
References: > >
Miguel Oliveira ) wrote:
: >Thank you very much.
: Didn't anyone read the fucking message!
Miguel! Fuck you, you asshole!
: Miguel Oliveira
|+ - ||Internet cenzura-tervek Magyarorszagon? (mind)
Tud valaki arrol, hogy milyen elkepzelesek vannak erre es hogy
ki(k) a korlatozas fo szoszoloi?
|+ - ||Re: az etikatlan masolas esete (Nemzet c. kiadvany) (mind)
Pellionisz Andras szerint en becsuletsertesen "sopankodom," akkor amikor
en is becsuletsertest kovetek el ellene es Toth Jozsef, a Nemzet
szerkesztobizottsaganak elnoke ellen. Szeretnem felhivni Pellionisz Andras
figyelmet, hogy becsuletsertes jogilag csak akkor all fenn, ha allitasaink
nincsenek megalapozva. Roviden es velosen, ha hazudunk. Az nem
becsuletsertes, ha valaki elmondja az igazsagot. Ami pedig az igazsagot
illeti. Itt van a Batthyany Lajos Alapitvany bejelentese a Szalonbol. De
ezt a szoveget meg lehet talalni az osszes HIX-fele kiadvanyban.
>Felado : Batthyany Lajos Alapitvany
>E-mail : [United States]
>Temakor: BLA Sajtoszemle (engedely nelkul: Nemzet) ( 22 sor )
>Idopont: Tue Oct 31 18:51:25 EST 1995 SZALON #1000
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>Tudomasunkra jutott, hogy Alapitvanyunk napi sajtoszemlejet,
>amely a WWW lapunkon a http://www.hungary.com/bla/sajto/
>alatt lathato, a @siliconvalley.com cimrol Nemzet neven
>tovabbterjesztik, engedelyunk nelkul.
>Az engedely nelkuli terjesztoket felszolitottuk a tevekenyseguk
>beszuntetesere. Kerjuk, ha Onokhoz tovabbi engedely nelkul
>terjesztett peldanyokat kuldenek, ertesitsenek bennunket a
>A vasarnap kivetelevel mindennap megjeleno sajtoszemlenk ingyenesen
>megrendelheto a kovetkezo cimen:
>A sajtoszemle 123 ekezetes jelolessel is olvashato:
>Batthyany Lajos Alapitvany
Aztan, itt van a Nemzet november 1-i szama, mindossze peldanak. Egy szo
sem esett arrol, hogy ezek a hirek az OMRI-tol jonnek Pragabol:
>Subject: Nemzet 1995.11.01.
> N N EEEEEEE M M ZZZZZZZ EEEEEEE TTTTTTT
> NN N E MM MM Z E T
> N N N E M M M M Z E T
> N N N EEEE M M M Z EEEE T
> N N N E M M Z E T
> N NN E M M Z E T
> N N EEEEEEE M M ZZZZZZZ EEEEEEE T
>. . . .
>CZECH CENTRAL BANK ACTS TO STOP RAIDS ON INVESTMENT FUNDS. The Czech
>National Bank on 31 October said it has banned a small bank from buying
>shares and from continuing with a huge advertising campaign designed to
>help it win control of some of the country's biggest investment funds.
>The aggressive television and press campaign conducted by Plzenska Banka
>had cost more than 1 billion koruny ($38.4 million) by 23 October,
>Hospodarske noviny reported. Though the largest banks (who control many
>of the big investment funds) have closed ranks to stop Plzenska Banka's
>lightning raids, the Finance Ministry refused to allow the huge Komercni
>Banka fund to protect itself by removing its shares from open trading.
>The CNB said it was not clear who was behind Plzenska Banka, while Prime
>Minister Vaclav Klaus termed the bank's campaign-based on the slogan
>"Small shareholders, cry"-as false, dirty and unethical. * Steve Kettle
>EIGHT FIRED AFTER ACCIDENT AT SLOVAK STEELWORKS. VSZ on 31 October fired
>two managers and six technicians, blaming them for the recent carbon
>monoxide leak that killed 11 people, TASR and Reuters reported. The
>decision was made by the boards of the company's subsidiaries, VSZ Ocel
>and VSZ Keramika, which dismissed their production manager and technical
>director, respectively, and recommended the dismissal of six
>technicians. VSZ will provide a total of 1 million koruny ($33,000) for
>the families of victims. The Slovak Office of Work Safety announced on
>31 October that in the first nine months of 1995, 80 fat
|+ - ||Translators wanted. (mind)
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