Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Copyright (C) HIX
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Gypsies (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
2 Csurka self-proclaimed popularity (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Csurka self-proclaimed popularity (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
4 Zelei and Gyo3ry (mind)  62 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Wine/Public Schools (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Gypsies (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Gypsies (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Gypsies (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Gypsies (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
10 MET TOZSDE IX. elso resz (mind)  81 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Gypsies (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Rebecca Tracy wrote:

>What should be done? [...]
>We should
>discourage parasite economics, based on cultural norms or otherwise, [...]

Could you please elaborate on this, 'parasite economics' is missing from my
economist training.

I would also be interested in your views on Gypsy life in the US compared to
Eastern Europe, if you have experience with or an opinion on the latter.
I presume there would be much less traditional prejudice against Gypsies in
the US (but I may be wrong).  If so, to what extent has Gypsy life change,
measured in such things as education levels, ratio of various occupations,
unemployment rate, traditional family structure (is tribal organization a
correct term ?), sedentary v. nomadic lifestyle, compared to the Eastern-
European situation ?  I suppose the people going to the US may have been more
enterprising/resourceful than the general Gypsy population, so the comparison
may not only reflect the social environment.

As a matter of interest, from which countries did Gypsies mainly go to the
US, and is there a difference between Gypsies originating in different
old-world countries ?

Thanks for your response in advance,

George Antony
+ - Csurka self-proclaimed popularity (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Pannon writes:

"So what?  Csurka is actually more popular in emigree organizations than
in Hungary."

Do you have any statistical proof of this ?

Last year when I saw Csurka here in Portola Valley (CA), the
average age of his audience was around 65.
He has no support among the 'under 45' group of emigrees.

At the same time, he often claims that the US emigree groups
are 'behind him'.   I must admit, he got some chutzpah.....;-))
+ - Re: Csurka self-proclaimed popularity (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Lazar calls me on carpet about this statement:

> "Csurka is actually more popular in emigree organizations than
> in Hungary."
> Do you have any statistical proof of this ?

Of course I don't.  Just as you don't have one about the opposite.
I doubt anybody collects statistics about this.  So it's just my
assessment based on the emigre papers I read.  I must admit though that
his popularity lately has dropped considerably.  But we were talking
about the first half of the Antall-Boross regime.

> Last year when I saw Csurka here in Portola Valley (CA), the
> average age of his audience was around 65.
> He has no support among the 'under 45' group of emigrees.

How do you know?  I haven't seen such statistics, either.  On the other
hand, the most loyal crowd of many Hungarian associations comes from the
over-50 crowd, anyway.

I happen to be quite familiar with the Puget Sound picture as I was the
membership chair for four years in our association and in contact with
other organizations as well.  The sad truth is that the younger emigres
just don't care much about what is going on in the old country.  The
ones you could always count on are the older ones.  But then many older
ones had a totally unrealistic picture of Hungary.

> At the same time, he often claims that the US emigree groups
> are 'behind him'.   I must admit, he got some chutzpah.....;-))

Talking about chutzpah ...  I imagine there is considerable difference
in Csurka support among Jewish-Hungarians and non-Jewish ones.  But I
noticed lately, that the two views started converging.  And that is not
in Csurka's favor.

Joe Pannon
+ - Zelei and Gyo3ry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Pannon writes:
> Well, I remember you wrote something similar about the entire story not
> being substantiated by me.  Now you yourself did it with the core of the
> story.  Logic should tell you that if the most crucial part of the story
> turned out to be true, the "substitution" part is likely to be true as well
Just to make this clear, I haven't learned that "Zelei is an alcoholic who
substituted himself etc. etc." what I have learned was "it was Zelei that
this particular rumor was being spread about" -- quite a difference.
Obviously proof or disproof can't come from my sources in Budapest, it can
only come from Australia.

> If you need more substantiation, perhaps dig a little more and you'll
> find out that, too.  In the meantime I suggest to give me the benefit of
> doubt, especially since you have nothing to refute the story with.
> Oh, and I do remember the paper publishing the Australian host's letter,
> but it has gone out of business since then.  Besides, you probably
> never heard of it, anyway.  You know, it was one of those "right-wing"
> papers, you wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole.
I give both you and Zelei the benefit of the doubt. To aid me in my digging,
you should let me know what paper it was, possibly the Hoover Institution
had a subscription. I'm sure you are right and I wouldn't particularly
like the paper, but I even read Magyar Fo1rum now and again, and how much
worse can this paper be?

> So what?  Csurka is actually more popular in emigree organizations than
> in Hungary.  Was this supposed to refute my story, or what?
To refute, no, but to point to a line of "cui prodest", yes. Here is Gyo3ry,
an avid Csurkist, and Gyo3ry's boss Zelei. As a confidant of Edward Teller,
Zelei can hardly be accused of communist leanings, but he is not a Csurkist
either. In fact, as the editor ultimately responsible for Gyo3ri's Sunday
morning Csurka show, Zelei might have objected to various things or
otherwise transgressed against Gyo3ry/Csurka.  So if Australian supporters
of Csurka succeed in depicting Zelei in a bad light (Australia is far away,
so any rumors will be hard to verify or falsify), Csurkism in general, and
Gyo3ry in particular, stand to benefit.

> > Don't leave us guessing: what *did*  you write at our before 89?
> Now stop being so nosy, Andras!
Is this a big secret? I assumed you signed your name to it and would
proudly bring forth samples -- if it's some anonymous or pseudonymous
stuff you are more than welcome to keeping the secret.

> Well, from the negative publicity those parties got in the establishment
> media, I'm not surprised that they got so few votes.
Sure, the press misled the nation. They could see with their own eyes
on prime-time television the guy who was beaten up by Horn in 56  but
still they voted for MSZP, so strong are the hypnotic powers of the
written press.

> > And who pays for the upkeep of these companies in the meantime? Remember,
> > even Ikarus is losing money, not to speak of the 200+ LARGE companies still
> > in the hands of A1V Rt./U3.
> Oh, they can continue substituting cheap human labor for expensive
> Western equipment, no?  This would also save the jobs of those
> journalists you are so attached to. ;-)
Now why don't we take this one step further and actually destroy all
modern (Western) equipment? This would create jobs, and guarantee a
technological level that can be maintained without foreign investment.
Isn't this exactly the "third road" Csurka likes?-(

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: Wine/Public Schools (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Hmm... They never taught me all those things in my school, however they did
>teach me how to wear a condom.....marc

funny :-) hahahahahahahaha!!

+ - Re: Gypsies (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>ugliest racism, and I can't agree with it. However, whether gypsies steal or
>not, whether their culture is inferior or not, is not the question. THE
>PROBLEMS. I think you haven't even come close to that, not even to identifying
>the problem, in fact.

Please sign your postings in the future so we know who said what.  All there
is to identify the writer is the e-mail address.

Ok, let's talk about addressing the problem.  Can you tell me what the reaction
of the liberals would be if someone suggested addressing the 'problem' of
the inferior culture or habits of an ethnic group?  Do you think that kind of
a suggestion would go over well?  If you agree (and I don't mean to suggest
you do) that stealing and antisocial behavior is a cultural trait of the
Gypsies, what you the liberals concede to as a solution or course of action?
I smell the ugly head of the ACLU rearing here!!  To be clear, I DO NOT
suggest all Gypsies behave in an antisocia; manner, for I don't have any
way to make that determination, and I am a strong believer in the
principal the there is no such thing as 'all' with respect to groups of
people.  But, there is such a thing as behaviors with are more likely in
one group than in the population as a whole.  That is what we  call culture!
For good and bad, culture is defined be behaviors and preferences of one
group of people, which are different than the behaviors and preferences of
other groups.  Italians speak with their hands, hung and kiss a lot, and
stand on top of you during a conversation.  Northern Europeans are more
subdued and feel more comfortable standing a bit further away while speaking
to each other.  Neither is good or bad - they just are.  These are
elements of culture, and demonstrate that people do behave differently
and have different preferences, for good or bad.  The problem is that more
 'progressive' minded folks only acknowledge the positive aspects of
culture, as if culture was the packaged stuff at weekend festivals.  The is
more to Polish people than polkas. and to russians than caviar.

Paul Gelencser
+ - Re: Gypsies (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Not having read the post in question I have no opinion on it.  However,
>in his previous postings Paul Gelencser has consistently shown a lack of
>factual knowledge and much racist paranoia.  I very much hope
>that he is not representative of anyone but a narrow stratum of society:
>most "religious" people and Hungarians I know are certainly unlike him.
>Attempts by members of this list to reason with him had no effect, and I
>have ceased reading his posts.  You may like to include him in your kill file.
>George Antony

So, 'reasoning' with me must result in my agreeing with you?  Very nice!

Can you demonstrate 1, just 1, example of 'racist paranoia' on my part?
Your preference to treat culture as polished and packages fluf, for both
good and bad, demonstrates lack of maturity and sincerity.  To point out the
negative traits of a group, and say it is not acceptable, is not wrong
and prejudiced.  I never, ever, said all people of any group are bad, just
different groups have different traits, some good, some bad.  Where is the
racist paranoia there?

As for the kill file - go ahead, George.  If listening to anything other
than your own vioce is objectionable to you, we don't need to talk.  If you
feel that recognizing wrong equals prejudice, nothing more need be said.

Paul Gelencser
+ - Re: Gypsies (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>What should be done? We, Romani people, should become less factionalized and
>more cohesive in our approach to government representation. We should
>discourage parasite economics, based on cultural norms or otherwise, while
>encouraging pride in traditions that are valuable to the survival of our

>need to be literate; and among Gadze, who need to know more about our
>culture in order to respect it. If we don't reach out, we will die. That is

>Rebecca Tracy

Now, I was born and raised in the US, so my prespective is not a Hungarian
but an American one.  IMHO, if you want to live in Hungary, fit in or
leave.  The US has an immigrant, primarily Northern European culture, but
Hungary does not.  There is a native Hungarian culture, and except for the
accomodations needed of other culures due to border shifting (Poles,
Ukraininas, etc.) there should not be any talk of multiculturalism as it
exists in the US (a ridiculous idea in itself, but that is for another
newsgroup) which dictates that all cultures are equal, rather than local
cultures being tolerated as is done in Europe.  If Gypsies or any groups
want to live by traditions in they traditions villages, fine, but don't
bring it to the national level.  It is wrong to expect the nation to
accept local minority beahviors which are repulsive to the majority ethnic

Paul Gelencser
+ - Re: Gypsies (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

.. and George, I alsmost forgot.  You said in youir post attacking me
that I don't offer facts.  Well, the news story from either 20/20 or
60 Minutes (not sure from which) which I cited as the basis of my comments
was fact - there was such a program and others here have seen it also.
You want to dispute some of it, take it up with the producer.  I used it
as a reference, and was not the author.  All of what was reported was taped
and broadcast for all to see - it was not my invention.

So there! ;-)

Paul Gelencser
+ - MET TOZSDE IX. elso resz (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

___MAGYAR ELEKTRONIKUS TOZSDE____________________________HU-ISSN_1216-0229
                                     copyright  1994. IV. evfolyam /volume

HAVI ar 1000 Ft-ban   (MONTHLY  price  1000Ft)
RESZVENYEK         |  7. honap    |  8. month    | 9. honap     |
 Stock             | max.  price  | maximumar    | close price  |
<Agrimpex>bem        18.000         17.100         20.000
<Agrimpex>nev        18.000         17.100
<Aranypok>                          10.009          9.000
<Balaton>             9.700          7.750          7.700
<Bonbon>                                            1.950
<Csemege>            16.000         18.000         17.000
<Csopak>bem           0.690          0.650          0.500
<Csopak>nev           0.690
<Danubius>            1.160                         1.080
<Domus>               1.400          1.200          1.200
<Dunaholding>bem     23.500         30.000         33.050
<Dunaholding>nev     23.500
<Egis>                2.200          2.705           2.855
<Fotex>               0.409          0.411           0.372
<Garagent>                           2.200           2.500
<Goldsun>             1.300          1.075           1.060
<Global>              1.550          1.415           2.370
<Globus>              2.245          2.350           2.400
<Graboplast>          1.400          1.255           1.330
<Hungagent>bem        1.500          2.000
<Hungagent>nev        1.500
<Ibusz>               1.465          1.555           1.500
<Inter-Europa>       15.100         13.300          13.000
<KontraxI>            0.250                          0.250
<KontraxT>            0.300          0.150           0.290
<Konzum>              0.725                          0.750
<Martfu>sor           3.210          4.120           3.650
<Muszi>               0.150          0.100           0.100
<Nitroil>                           16.000
<Novotrade>           5.300
<Panflax>             0.500          0.520           0.450
<PanPlast>            1.350          1.300           1.240
<Pharmavit>                          7.010           7.900
<Pick>                6.600          8.020           7.150
<Primagaz>            2.400          2.900           2.695
<Skala-Coop>S         2.000          2.450           2.000
<Skala-Coop>T         2.650          2.850           2.850
<Soproni>sor          4.900          5.000           4.500
<Styl>                2.600          2.835           2.700
<Sztrada>bem          3.500                          3.500
<Sztrada>nev          3.500
<Terraholding>                       0.450
<Zalakeramia>         2.350          2.800           2.400
<Zwack>               4.400          6.050           5.000
Karpotlasijegy        0.580          0.455           0.457

Megjegyzesek:  (Note)
A GOPHER szolgaltatas frissites alatt...
Megallapodott a BET - MATIF - MAESTRO a BET hataridos piacanak fejleszteseben.
<Zalakeramia> alaptokeemelesebol szarmazo reszvenyek a tozsden.
<Agrimpex> kereskedest egy napra felfuggesztetek. A ceg volt vezetoi
megallapodtak, hogy peres ugyeiket birosagon kivul rendezik.
<Novotrade> kereskedes felfuggesztve; nehany napra, benfentes kereskedes
alapos gyanuja miatt.
Keszul az uj egyseges tozsdetorveny.... jelentos vihart kavarva.

Kovetkezo ujsagban!

       M     M   EEEEE   TTTTTTT   1994. IV. volume /evfolyam.
       M M M M   E          T        HU ISSN  1216-0229
       M     M   E          T           ELECTRONIC JOURNAL
       M     M   EEEEEE     T      BUDAPEST,Pf.311. H-1536.HUNGARY
       Kiado/Publisher: dr.Orczan, Zsolt L.    
       Foszerkeszto/ Editor  Orczan, Csaba S.  
    Megrendeles lemondas  cimen sub MET-TOZS
MET_____________________      __________________MET