Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
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Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Migs (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Mig29s (mind)  74 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Southern Slovakia in 1938-19 (mind)  73 sor     (cikkei)
4 ATMs, foriegn exchange at Prague Airport? (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
5 searching for a Hungarian to correspond with (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
6 NATODATA paper on Hungarian minorities (mind)  85 sor     (cikkei)
7 About Tama1s Suchman (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Jane's Figures-Sequel II (mind)  45 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Mig`s (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Jane's Figures-Sequel II (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Migs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Constantin Donea:
> for the less famous Mig-29 deal. For those who ignore it, in 1990 Romania
> purchased 30 brand new Mig-29s for just $1 million.

        That sounds very strange--an F-16 goes for about $25M, an F-14
and F-15 for about $50M.


Norbert Ja'nos Udvardy Walter      | "Repetition does not transform a lie
Fort Worth, Texas, USA             |  into a truth."
Internet:          |
FidoNet:   1:130/911.6212          |             -- Franklin D. Roosevelt
+ - Re: Mig29s (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Felado : 
> 1. It is not unrealistic to expect Russian to repay its debt over time.
Not entirely unrealistic, I agree. But Hungary comes low on the list of
important creditors, and Russia can perfectly well decide to pay back
money owed to the US but not that owed to Hungary.

> If Finland, or for that matter Hungary, could repay its debt, so can
> Russia. It has to be held to the same standard.
Yes indeed. But Hungary is not in a position of doing such "holding",
as it is a minor power compared to Russia, no matter how much Russia
is disintegrating.

> 2. To state that the Migs are free, misrepresents the facts. They are
> not free. They are overpriced. They are inferior in quality. It is
> equipment which Russia has difficulty in selling.
Free means getting something for nothing -- in the sense that Hungary
exported goods of some sort and now imports the Migs they are indeed not
free.  But the choice is between receiving actual hardware and assuming the
position of the roaring mouse and try to hold Russia to higher standards.

In general the whole Comecon was about bartering second-rate goods, and this
is just another example of the same process. The collapse of Eastern markets
hurt Hungary (which still produces more second-rate than first-rate goods)
quite a bit. To buy US or Swedish planes Hungary would have to make and
export a significant amount of first-rate goods. To buy the Migs requires no
similar effort -- the second-rate goods sold on credit to the Russians have
already been made (and laid on the Russians, who are now laying similarly
second-rate stuff on us).

Whether the Migs in question are overpriced must be determined by comparing
the nominal and actual price Hungary pays to the nominal and actual prices
others pay.  But if you like Russian paper so much and dislike Russian
warplanes so much why don't you try to find a willing Western bank or
government that provides Hungary with fine western warplanes and accepts
transfer of Russian obligations as payment? At that point the bank or
government in question can assume the fine task of holding Russia to high

> 3. Why should Hungary become the dumping ground for obsolete equipment?
> Such materiel would put its soldiers lives in harm's way. Potential
> aggressors would not be impressed, or indeed, deterred.
Unless they have the same kind of equipment, which happens to be the case
with most countries Hungary can consider a potential agressor.

> 4. If money is to be spent for defense, it must be for equipment which
> has the potential of deterring any adversary. Military history is
> replete with examples where a well led, numerically inferior but well
> equipped force could overcome a numerically superior adversary.
The whole point of this deal is that money is NOT spent, but rather
a certain amount of bad debt is recovered. You seem to ignore this
simple fact completely.

> 5. "Purchasing" inferior equipment may be a comradely thing to do for
> those in power in Budapest, but it certainly goes contrary to the
> interests of the people of Hungary.
Nobody could for a minute doubt that C.K. Zolta1ni can guard the interests
of the people of Hungary much better than their freely elected government:
he has the votes to prove it and the means to excercise his power to this
noble end. It is an outrage someone else is the Prime Minister today.

The point is to get _some_ upgrading of the current equipment at _some_
price. The choice is not just between US and Russian planes: not doing
anything is also a viable choice, as demonstrated by the Antall/Boross
government, which didn't particularly upgrade the Hungarian Air Force. Not
doing anything has zero price (actually a slightly positive sum as it
becomes more expensive to maintain increasingly obolete equipment) and comes
with zero upgrading of capabilities (actually a slightly negative trend, as
the stuff becomes increasingly obsolete). Buying Migs has zero actual price
and provides a modicum of upgrading. Buying US planes would provide
considerably better upgrading but at a considerably steeper price, unless,
of course, C.K. Zolta1ni assumes the Russian debt and delivers the planes.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: Southern Slovakia in 1938-19 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ferenc wrote:
>   wrote
> Temakor: Re: Southern Slovakia in 1938-19 ( 60 sor )
> Idopont: Mon Mar 20 06:57:52 EST 1995 HUNGARY #257:
> >...and how about Trianon?
> >I heard that Hungary agreed with Trianon. Am I wrong?
> Yes, Jozef, you are.  Hungary signed the Trianon trety because it had no
> choice.  Czechoslovakia agreed to the Vienna arbitration because it would not
> seriously discuss returning Hungarian-inhabited areas it received under
> Trianon.

No, no, Ferenc - you are wrong. Both Trianon and Vienna arbitration was
the result of pressure. But Magyars showed in 19th century after 1867
how they can treat with other minorities (Only Croats were an exception).
And maybe it was one of reasons that president Wilson agreed with
dividing of Hu kingdom and with new states.

> You say about the present mistreatment of Hungarians in Slovakia:
> >... it was only a consequence. You could read about a reason - >how Magyars
> behaved to Slovaks in time of >WWII in this area.

No, no. It should be about situation after WWII as you wrote.

> Jozef:  You mean to say that the present mistreatment of Hungarians in
> Slovakia is a result of past grievances by Slovaks?

Ferenc, I don't know about any present horrible mistreatment of Hungarians
in Slovakia. You wrote about situation after WWII and I too.
You wrote about deportations, about abolition of Hu schools, etc.
And it was my comment to that.

  So, instead of being
> guided by principles of democracy and fairness, Slovakia is pursuing an
> agenda of revenge and retribution of 50-year old hurts?  This is not the way
> to join the family of European democracies.

It is interesting, but Magyars more often told about such matters.
And Trianon is older than 50 years.

> Since you mentioned it, let's talk about the treatment of minorities in
> Hungary vs. Slovakia.  A telling example could be the issue of bilingual
> highway signs in minority areas: in Hungary they are present all over; signs
> in German, Slovak, Rumanian etc in areas inhabited by such nationalities.
>  But in Slovakia the matter was the subject of intense parliamentary debate
> with near violent outcomes.  (I don't know if eventually the
> nationalistic/postcommunist leadership yielded some ground, but its
> resistance to the idea was typical.)

Well, it is the matters which were interesting e.g. for deputies of Hu
parties in Slovakia. They could not be interested in that if Magyars have
a job or no (southern Slovakia is mostly agricultural and after 1989
some districts with big Hu population had big unemployment) - it was
more important if they could have Hu road table before their village.
And in the 1st vote in Sk parliament e.g. Duray voted for the law
but some of them voted against. And I read in my Sk newspapers coments
of some Budapest's newspapers about some stupid deputies who did not
know what they wanted.
When was the 2nd vote, all agreed.

> Instead of trying to justify present wrongdoing by citing past injustices, we
> should all try to find common ground in addressing the issues of the present
> so the future should be better for all.


> Ferenc Novak

Jozef Simek
+ - ATMs, foriegn exchange at Prague Airport? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello -

I am leaving tomorrow for Prague and was unable to get any Czech money. Are
ATMs or a foriegn exchange at the airport?

Thanks! Heidi
> ===================================================================
Heidi Hood                              (913) 551-5088
Computer Data Systems, Inc.             

EPA Region VII
Environmental Services Division
25 Funston Road
Kansas City, KS  66115
> ===================================================================
+ - searching for a Hungarian to correspond with (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi! It's Stiphane on the line. I'm living in Paris and finishing my
studies here this year. Next year I'm going to Hungary for my job. I will
probably spend one or two years there, so I would like to learn more about
the country, his hystory, his people. Everything I have managed to get
about Hungary until now is the kind of things you can read in handbooks
for tourists... It's a little superficial. What I would like to perform with In
is to establish relationships with friends in the country before going. It woul
be great to have someone to chat with, who would know the country.

        Impatiently waiting for your answer on my Email, Stiphane.
+ - NATODATA paper on Hungarian minorities (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

For those who don't know the  email list
(I haven't had time to work it into hungarian-faq yet ;-<), I include here
a pointer to a post that just appeared there. It may be worth noting
that recently they are publishing articles on that list semi-regularly.
The list is a standard LISTSERV service (so do not use the lists address
for subscription commands and such)! They are supposed to have a gopher
archive as well, but that did not seem to work when I tried.

 The whole paper is some 130K big, so I am only sending (to the HUNGARY
list and soc.cultur.magyar) its table of contents plus one paragraph
here. If interested, please try to retreive the full article from the
archives (or me, if all else fails ;-))




Occasional Paper                       by  Bennett Kovrig

In Czechoslovakia
In Romania
In the Former Yugoslavia
In Ukraine
In Romania
In Slovakia
In the Former Yugoslavia
In Ukraine
Hungary's Brief
The Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe
The Council of Europe (CE)
The European Union (EU)
The North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO)
The European Union (EU)
The North Atlantic Treaty Organization (NATO)
The Cultural Factor
> ---------------------------------------------------------

The preservation of European security remains a paramount
interest of the United States, and that security is
threatened by discord over national minorities in Central
and Eastern Europe. The most dramatic evidence of this
threat, Yugo-slavia's civil war, has overshadowed
another set of problems involving the region's Hungarian
minorities. Close to three million Hungarians live as
minorities in the countries surrounding Hungary. Recent
census figures, which may understate the size of the
minorities, show 1,620,000 in Romania (Transylvania),
567,000 in Slovakia and 341,000 in the Vojvodina province
of Yugoslavia. Some 170,000 ethnic Hungarians live in
the Transcarpathian district of Ukraine, 25,000 in
Croatia and around 12,000 in Slovenia. These Hungarians
became minorities in consequence of boundary changes
effected by the Treaty of Trianon (1920) and confirmed
in the Paris Peace Treaty of 1947. Relations between
Hungarians and other nationalities of the region have
been marked by a variety of grievances.

        Forwarded by:
Zoli , finger  for the charter of s.c.h
# Wallace Sayre said, "Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter
# form of politics, because the stakes are so low."  He didn't know
# Usenet: welcome to the next level.           (Ron "Asbestos" Dippold)
+ - About Tama1s Suchman (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I think that I mentioned earlier that the SZDSZ wasn't terribly happy with
the appointment of the new privatization minister, Tama1s Suchman. Leaders of
the SZDSZ claimed that he wasn't qualified. Among other things he didn't
speak any foreign language. However, I believe this is not as big a problem
as his general political and economic outlook. I found the following in the
March 18th edition of HVG by Gyo2rgyi Kocsis:

"It is worth mentioning that Tama1s Suchman, the new MSZP privatization
minister, doesn't look upon the extention of private property as the
prerequisite for market economy and democracy. To quote him: `I would like to
dispel a misconception: we are not privatizing because the state was not a
good owner. We are privatizing because we don't have enough money to
rehabilitate the economically ruined companies.'" Apparently this is a
quotation from his first press conference. He unfortunately repeated this
nonsense to the HVG as well.

Now we know why the SZDSZ didn't like Mr. Suchman. Either he can't think
straight or his political and economic opinions are tainted to such an extent
that his whole notion on Hungary's future is clouded in rhetorics and beliefs
which have no place in today's politics and economics..

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Jane's Figures-Sequel II (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, George Frajkor
> writes:
>       England won the Battle of Britain during the Second World War
>  using equipment far inferior to that owned by the Nazis at the time.

[a long text about importance of the human factor deleted]

Yes, it indeed might have been so in the good old times when the
most powerful computer on the world was the human brain. In these
times, human enthousiasm and good motivation still could have played
a role. No more today.

Let's remember Falklads. Argentinian pilots showed an incredible
courage and several times even played kamikadze. One hit, if I remember
correctly. They were shot long before they camo close enough to the

An another example: an Iranian airplane (yes a civil aviation airplane,
rather a sad story) has been shot over the Red Sea a couple years ago
by a US fregate who shot a rocket automatically when an unidentified
aircraft approached directly at it.

Yes, today's battles are already being done by automats. They have better
reactions than humans, higher precision than humans, better disponibility
and don't ask questions. The only problem is that it's not good to let
them decide.

A MIG has no chance in a combat with a Western aircraft because it has
no electronics that would keep pace with. That means a MIG will be shot
long before the pilot gets aware what's gonna happen to him.

That's the reason Finland bought F-18 and Switzerland bought F-18
Hornets, too: they are heavy, bulky, expensive, but there is nothing
better on the market these days. We are living in an electronics world
where the better software wins.

MIG is a hopelessly obsolete equipment and is a good buy only when the
expected enemy will come with MIGs, too;-)

Roman Kanala

Disclaimer: My private opinions only, of course. Aircraft are not
subject of my research and therefore I can be heavily wrong. However,
before agreeing on it, valid arguments have to presented, as always...
+ - Re: Mig`s (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  (Constantin Donea)
>In article >, zcapl74
> writes:
>for the less famous Mig-29 deal. For those who ignore it, in 1990 Romania
>purchased 30 brand new Mig-29s for just $1 million. Looks like Hungary
>has more money to spend for its army...
Wow!!! $1 million for thirty of them.  If you know of anyone selling @ that
price please tell them to e-mail me.  I will take a couple, maybe three
(that's about $100,000 right ?).  Hell, I'll just put-off purchasing that big
Benz I always wanted and I'll get three Migs instead.  Or maybe they sold it
for a million because of the quantity discount, in which case I'll have to
pass 'cause of limited garage space.

+ - Re: Jane's Figures-Sequel II (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


: MIG is a hopelessly obsolete equipment and is a good buy only when the
: expected enemy will come with MIGs, too;-)

And what type of fighter aircraft do Hungary's `expected enemies' have?