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Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: SOROS-HORN SUMMIT! (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
2 Time, "Milestones" Honour the Memory... (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
3 How to get The MORTIMER Story (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: To Joe about PC. (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Political Correctness 90210 (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: The Durant-Stowe Dustup (mind)  2 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Hungarian language lesson (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: To Joe about PC. (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: animal noises (fwd) (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: A few comments on feminism (mind)  105 sor     (cikkei)
11 some relatives (fwd) (mind)  118 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: SOROS-HORN SUMMIT! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Cecilia wrote in connection with the Soros meeting:
>Laszlo indicated there will be some sort of preliminary meeting in Budapest,
>but the main meeting is to take place in New York--where Soros has his
>offices.  The Hungarians wanted the main meeting in Budapest, but the
>audience they also wanted to attract was principally North American and East
>Asian, and since Hungary is generally such a small part of their general
>business activities, many of prospective invitees didn't want to take the
>time off for the extra travel.  It was felt they would have a higher
>turn-out in New York.

Now a saw a confirmation of this, quoting the Hungarian paper
"Nepszabadsag". The [preliminary?] meeting will take place in Budapest on
February 9-10, and about 100 prominent people from abroad are invited from
the field of culture, science and economy. The report names Andras Suto,
[writer from Romania], Tibor Merai [writer from France], Paul Lendvai
[publicist from Austria], Andrew Sarlos [businessman from Canada] and Tom
Lantos [politician from the US].  I added the qualifications shown in
square bracket, so they may not be accurate.

I wonder, if anyone who reads the Internet media will attend this meeting.
[Bela Litpak, Laszlo Hamvas, etc]

Barna Bozoki
+ - Time, "Milestones" Honour the Memory... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Letter to the Editor of
Time Magazine

In the February 5. 1996 issue, Vol. 147 No. 6 of Time;
"Milestones" while writing about  the recently deceased
Hungarian Athlete Sandor Iharos you characterize the
>1956  Hungarian Revolution as "political unrest". I hope that
this is not a deliberate attempt to dishonour the Hungarian
Nation, or to distort Hungarian History on the 40th anniversary
of the Hungarian Revolution, and  the 1,100 anniversary of the
Hungarian statehood, but merely a result of having an inferior
staff with a miserable knowledge of twentieth century history,
suffering from obvious memory lapses, and lacking even the most
basic research skills. The House of Representatives of the
>United States (99 th Congress 2D Session H.J.Res. 657 has
enacted a Joint Resolution in order to  designate  October 23,
1986 as "National Hungarian Freedom Fighters Day." In the same
Resolution the events of 1956 are characterized by the US House
>of Representatives as "the uprising of the people of Hungary.."
>Your own Magazine in its January 7, 1957 has  proclaimed the
Hungarian Freedom Fighter as the "Man of the Year" . VOL. LXIX
 No1. (LXIX=Roman Numeral meaning  69, just in case..)
>If your own staff is not consistent  with your own publications,
 how do you expect the public to take them seriously.
One of your issues is obviously wrong in this matter, and  you
will have to do  plenty of backtracking and feigning ignorance
even against  your own past issues in order to reduce  the
Hungarian Revolution of 1956 to a mere "political unrest."
>Forty years ago the people of Hungary  stood up  against the
>Communist oppresion and astonished the world by their courage
 and determination to be free.The Memory of  Hungarian Freedom
Fighter- surely deserves better than the  slur it received
from Time Magazine.
>Peter Kaslik
>Hungarian Human Rights Monitor
>Tel/Fax:(416) 259-0877
+ - How to get The MORTIMER Story (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This posting was made automatically by machine. It will appear once
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>>> rdc, carasso, Trash Incinerators, Nuclear Weapons, Poverty, KiBoIsM
>>> Racism, Kent Paul Dolan, Specieism, etc... Write: Rabbits for a Better
>>> Hutch, Roscommon, MI 48653 E-MAIL: 
+ - Re: To Joe about PC. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>I'm posting this because,
>as usual, I have to satisfy my need to have the last word.
>Joe Szalai

"Babe, you're not the wave; you're just the water..." -- Jimmie Dale
By the by, Joe, according to a National Public Radio story broadcast this
evening (Feb. 1) on WUNC, Patsy's "I Fall to Pieces" is Pat Buchanan's
favorite song. Time to break out the kd lang CDs.
Sam Stowe

Hungarian content -- Does American country and western even compute in
+ - Re: Political Correctness 90210 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mr. Czifra,

>From your last post it's obvious that you're adept at flogging a dead horse.
Do you get sufficient satisfaction form doing so, or are you turned on by
necrophilia as well?

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: The Durant-Stowe Dustup (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Needs abhor a vacuum. Therefore they will expand to fill any space that is
allotted to them.
+ - Re: Hungarian language lesson (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 29 Jan 1996, Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> At 11:46 AM 1/29/96 -0500, Sandor Kristyan wrote:
> men on the Forum would all pounce on me because=20

   I consider women equal to
> men. Actually,=20

  I consider myself way above most of the men on the Forum,
> both in character and in knowledge.

Ms. Balogh has shown many strengths, but I'm afraid she has now admitted=20
two weaknesses: a desire for equality, and a sense of superiority.

That over, we in these parts normally call the leg=E9nyek fi=FAk and the=20
kisasszonyok l=E1nyok until they're, say, 35 or 40.  (eg.  Az a fi=FA aki o=
volt nem h=E1zas?)

+ - Re: To Joe about PC. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 29 Jan 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:

> At 08:40 AM 1/28/96 -0500, Sam Stowe wrote:
> >I'll hazard two guesses about our unnamed lecturer here. Number one, I bet
> >she's on the fast track tenure-wise at whatever university English
> >department she infests. Number two, that infestation is probably being
> >undertaken at either an Ivy League school or a university in California's
> >state system.
> It's just amazing how far a heritic, who shows that there are several ways
> to project the world onto a map, can go.  To avoid infestation, future
> leaders should learn at 'provincial' universities.  It's safer.  Once one's

Isn't the use of the word "provincial" offensive and un-PC?  If I am not
mistaken, the French originally used it to describe those from the area
of Provence, who were commonly thought to be backward.

+ - Re: animal noises (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

There's a funny story with regard to animal noises.  An American friend=20
of mine had just arrived in Hungary for the first time, and  was=20
invited to somebody's house for dinner.  When she asked what she was=20
eating (she knew as  much as "mi ez?" in Hungarian) the host tried some=20
non- (or quasi)-verbal communication - by saying r=F6f-r=F6f.  My friend=20
immediatly lost her appetite, since she thought it was dog!=20

j=F3 =E9tv=E1gyat!

+ - Re: A few comments on feminism (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Fri, 26 Jan 1996, Tony and Celia Becker wrote:

> Dear James:
> At 12:28 PM 1/26/96 +0000, you wrote:
> >>
> >> As my late mother, Wilma Maie Wallace-Fabos said in July, 1981 during the
> >> strike she organized and led against the City of San Jose; "it's a little
> >> ridiculous to be paying female head librarians who have to have master's
> >> degrees and deal with all sorts of people and complex research and other
> >> problems, less than mostly male janitors required to have less than a
> >> high-school education, and having few, mostly rather simple
> responsibilities."
> >>
> >
> >
> >I don't see it as ridiculous at all.  A person (male or female) with a
> >PhD in Philosophy will probably earn less than the janitor.  This is
> >probably because of unionisation, but I can imagine a world where it is
> >very difficult to find people who wish to do janitorial work, and thus
> >they are willing to pay more for that labour.  I know college graduates
> >who are now janitors - why not, it pays!
> >
> It wasn't because of unionization.  The librarians and other female
> dominated positions had been unionized for several years with few results
> until 1981.  Also records from personnel department meetings, city
> officials' meetings, etc., etc. that later appeared in numerous hearings and
> courtrooms, and newspapers (through the Freedom of Information Act, leaks,
> etc.) made it very  clear that the officials in charge of setting the wages
> for the jobs were indeed doing it on the basis of what sex dominated, and
> for no other reason.  Their stated attitude was literally, "if a woman can
> do it, it must not be worth very much."  There was a lot of pretty
> disgusting transcripts...

What I have been trying to argue here is that type of attitude carries a
price, just like Apartheid carried a price.  Aparthied fell apart not
because of internal and international political pressure, but because of
the price it carried.  It costs a lot to misallocate resources because
of prejudice.  Those who see an advantage in breaking those prejudices
(and cut costs)  in a system in which they are free to do so, are most
likely to be winners (until, at least, the competition catches up with

> >
> >> There is also another legal concept called "equal pay for equal work."
> >> means if you do the same amount of work, with equally good effect, in
> >> exactly the same position you deserve equal reward.  Again, however, the
> >> specifics are important; it's not just an abstract amount of effort
> >> overcoming resistance or friction, and measured in foot pounds per inch or
> >> something.  What this also relates to--and does not contradict--is the ide
> >> that if you work harder and accomplish more--which is an unequal situation
> >> to  the person next to you who has precisely the same job description and
> >> tasks and time, you have the right to earn more money.
> >> >
> >
> >
> >Again, the problem of knowledge.

> Not just knowledge, although that is frequently an element in the situation,

You misunderstand what I meant by the "problem of knowledge".  The
problem of knowledge refers to the fact that bureaucrats, or courts, or
government officials cannot know what the "worth" of a person is.  You
might give the example of two people working in the same place with
the same job description, but don't forget that each has a different
background as well, and maybe one doesn't do the job as well, etc.  There
are enough variables in this 'control' situation, not to speak of one
person who is working in Washington D.C, while the other is working in
Chicago, where the job market is quite different.

This problem of knowledge is at the root of the reason socialism failed.
officials cannot evaluate the "worth" or value of different products,
because in the economy values are subjectively held.  This is true also of
goods and labour.  As a result, the socialist countries produced things
that nobody wanted, and wasted precious resources.

> >
> I agree with the relativity problem.  Unfortunately, as for "interference by
> government" we're back to people again, and individual persons' initiatives,
> knowledge and values, because governments don't exist without people.  It
> seems to be purely a human term and largely a human invention.

Yes, governments are made up of people, and people who imperfect.  To err
is human.  If the government were made up of one omniscient Being who
knew the exact motivation behind every action, you might have a point
about government intervention.

+ - some relatives (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Somebody sent me this message regarding the Estonian situation.  Sound

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Sat, 27 Jan 1996 13:01:56 +0000 (CET)
From: Robb Martin Nyelveszeti Tsz. >
To: Doepp James >
Subject: BALT:6180 The Mayfield Column 28 November (fwd)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Wed, 29 Nov 1995 12:02:19 +0000
From: Edis Bevan >
To: Multiple recipients of list BALT-L
Subject: BALT:6180 The Mayfield Column 28 November

Broadcast to list 29 November 1995

Original Sender ::"" "Ross Mayfield"

Opinion Collumn for Baltic Independent and SSigmanumiLeht
by Ross Mayfield*


WHAT DO the following statistics say about Estonia?

1. Estonians smoke more cigarettes per capita than any other

2. Estonians, with other Finno-Ugrians, have the highest suicide
rate of any culture.

3. Estonia has the lowest birth rate of any country in the

4. Estonians are the tallest people in Europe.

Cigarette intake could be seen as a measure of just how European
Estonia is. It is also indicative of how isolated Estonia is
from the latest public health war.

The US is on the frontlines of this battle, being home to
the largest tobacco producers as well as to some of the most
health-conscious people on Earth.

The public costs of caring for tobacco-related health
problems have been proven. Indeed, people are seeing that
smoking isn't simply a matter of freedom of choice. US tobacco
companies are being barred from their own market, and now
concentrate where they are making most of their money anyway:

Estonia should consider the benefits of a low-cost public health
education campaign, at least, in its schools - for the sake of
the next generation.

On to suicide - suicide in one fell swoop as opposed to the
abovementioned variety.

One reason for the high rate is certainly that the schizophrenia
incidence rate among Finns and Estonians is the highest in the
world, well over 1%. The suicide rate among schizophrenics is
many, many times greater than that of the rest of the

For the mentally ill in general, there is no low-cost access to
psychological care. In fact, part of the Estonian character is
its closed nature, and it is difficult to conceive of an
Estonian openly talking about her problems to a stranger. But
this is exactly what many people here need, and it should be a
programmatic concern of Western aid.

Instead of psychoanalysis and encounter groups, there is just
the shock therapy of market capitalism. A factor behind suicide
is certainly the fear of failure or danger in a hostile world.
Fear is reflected by the fact that security has become the main
concern of Estonians. Money is its guarantor, by any means. A
man with status shamelessly flaunts his Mercedes and mobile
phone at his hip; a woman with status emulates the fashion
magazines of the West for sake of recognition from mobile men.
Women also face the complexity of the permeation of feminism
(notably through Nordic influences and pop culture) in a male
chauvinistic society.

Estonia's low birth rate is indicative of a pessimistic outlook.
It is especially disconcerting for a people faced with cultural
and demographic extinction. There is hope in that many Estonians
are marrying a very early age - perhaps for security. (Notably,
Estonians married at the oldest age in Europe, on average,
during the interwar period.)

The correlation between smoking, suicide, the low birth rate and
Estonians being the tallest people in Europe is, safe to say,
exceedingly complex.

But there is a common denominator: the first three statistics,
which show that this society, supposedly a model for others, is
actually troubled.

The statistics are quite understandable, though, considering
recent history. It takes time to sew the social fabric back
together. I would say that the long run outlook is optimistic -
and in the short run there is great hope for Estonian

*Ross Mayfield is a researcher at the Baltic Institute for
Strategic and International Affairs in Tallinn.  The opinions
expressed in his column are his alone and do not reflect those
of any other individual or institution.

> ----------------------------------------------------------
                        Life in Freedom
                "Nothing About Us Without Us"
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