Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Copyright (C) HIX
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Giants Among Us (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Giants Among Us (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Romanian-Hungairan relations (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
4 Romanian origin and language- Bob Hosh (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
5 People of fertile plains (mind)  69 sor     (cikkei)
6 Hungary to place MOL shares (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
7 Bela Liptak's Op-Ed letter (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
8 Answer to Charlie Vamossy (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)
9 A bit more about Dr. Endrey (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Romanian-Hungarian relations (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
11 To Andra's Kornai: Decency and fair play, please (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Op-Ed (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Giants Among Us (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> So says the dwarf about the giant.

So says Joe in an unguarded moment, dropping his legendary courtesy.
I don't quite see what body size has to do with it.  Racist nonsense
spouted by field mice is still racist nonsense.  Racist nonsense spouted
by an 800-pound gorilla is likewise nothing but racist nonsense.  Racist
nonsense offered as Op-Ed material to the American press by an 800-pound
gorilla with unimpeachable credentials and the purest intentions is, yet
again, just racist nonsense, bound to hurt the cause it is meant to help.
The last thing you want in such a situation is to come across as just
another Balkan tribal demagogue spouting racist nonsense.

If you have an argument to the contrary, state it.

Gabor Fencsik

+ - Re: Giants Among Us (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>So says Joe in an unguarded moment, dropping his legendary courtesy.

Courtesy comes when it's due.  In this case it was not.

>I don't quite see what body size has to do with it.  Racist nonsense
>spouted by field mice is still racist nonsense.  Racist nonsense spouted
>by an 800-pound gorilla is likewise nothing but racist nonsense.  Racist

Sure.  But it's also true that something you call racists does not have
to be racist.  This is one of those cases.  But I am willing to let
others judge that by calling attention to your article in s.c.m.
Frankly, my personal opinion is that Prof. Liptak has alone done more in
the national interest of Hungary than everybody else put together since
1989.  I am not surprised that he has neither the time, nor the
inclination to lower himself to the kind of pitiful cock fights you like to
engage in just to show off your verbal talents.

>The last thing you want in such a situation is to come across as just
>another Balkan tribal demagogue spouting racist nonsense.

As I said, it ain't so just because you say so.  But I know when last
time YOUR attitude was tried in practice and failed miserably: it was in
1918-19 by Karolyi and Jaszi.

+ - Re: Romanian-Hungairan relations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Darren Purcell says: "If you base it on linguistic linkages, there is
a group farther south in the balkans according to a linguistic map in
the text I teach from, that speaks Romanian and they are no where near

Read "The early history of the Rumanian language", by Andre du Nay, a
linguist, in which he puts forth the theory that the group in the
western balkans is in fact the home group of the Romanians. Over the
centuries they migrated through the southern Balkans, Bulgaria and
into Wallachia, etc.

I belive the Romanians "historically" calim the Tisza river as their
western boundry.

Bob Hosh
+ - Romanian origin and language- Bob Hosh (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thanks Bob, my lack of knowledge of historical claims showed badly on
that one. I didn't know they claimed to to be there as well. I guess I am
so used to the Dacian linkages being put forth that it dominates my
thoughts on the issue. I will check the citation out when I get a
chance...as if grad students don't have enough to read :-)

Again, thanks, Darren
+ - People of fertile plains (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Colleagues,

I do apologize to Gabor Fencsik. My reason for not responding to his
criticism is that I was not aware of it. This is, because of lack of time,
not lack of interest. I wish I could read everything that is in my mail box
(electronic and regular), but I can't. On the other hand I do make a point to
answer every piece of personal mail. I do not go to bed on Sunday, until the
week's mail has been answered. So, if in the future, you are interested in my
response to something, please send me a note or a copy. I will always answer,
and I will always do that in private.  Now to the substantive parts of Dr.
Fencsik's remarks:

He feels that I am wrong in suggesting that weather, terrain and the ease or
difficulty of survival influences peoples personality. There is nothing wrong
with that. It just means that he did not have the same experiences and
therefore have not made the same observations, which I did over the years. It
is perfectly acceptable and very human to differ in that way. To get angry
over such things is unfortunate and to believe that one has ulterior motifs
in holding such views, is an unjustified assumption.

It so happens, that in connection with the little piece I wrote on Vojvodina,
I have received a large number of corrections and comments, some from Serbs
and from other natives of the region. On the personality differences, there
was general agreement, but they pointed out that the "Highlander Serb"
personality differs not only from the Hungarians of the fertile plains (the
best black soil anywhere in Europe), but from all inhabitants of that region.
Therefore, prior to sending the Vojvodina piece to the news wire, I revised
that paragraph thus:
        "The placidity of the people of Vojvodina, including the Hungarians,
corresponds to the openness of their fertile plains. Yet, their friendly and
mild personality does not mean, that their patience is unlimited. They are a
strong and determined people. Monica Seles is a proud Vojvodina Hungarian."

The other aspect of Gabor Fencsik's comments related to how we percieve the
purpose of such electronic forums as . He feels that it's
purpose is to debate issues, look at their pros and cons, in that process
show how articulate, well informed, or clever we are, and eventually reach
some sort of concensus or majority view. This is a perfectly valid
perspective, similar to the role of debating societies or to the purpose of
the letters which people write to the editors of newspapers. I have no
argument with such a view.
        But there can also be a second purpose, a second use of such forums
and it is this second purpose which I find uniquely valuable in our fast
paced modern world. As we have learned during the Iliescu visit, among the
subscribers of Hungary, there were some 50 people, who were willing to write
letters, send faxes, make telephone calls on behalf of their oppressed
brethren in Romania. (One young man alone has organized the mailing of 120
fax-es from Columbia University.)These 50 people are not interested in
debating fine points, they know the facts, they agree on the need to protect
the human and cultural rights of the indigenous Hungarian minorities and
therefore they want to act. So a secondary purpose of forums, such as
Hungary, is to make the quick and effective joint action of the Hungarian
Lobby possible.
       Both purposes are valid, neither conflicts with the other, they can
serve their different purposes, without conflict with the other.
       I would like to repeat here, that those who can either furnish media
and political mailing lists, or those who want to participate in the various
actions of such lobbying organizations as the Hungarian Anti-Defamation
League, should contact the following Colleagues:

If you prefer to work in the E-MAIL MEDIA: Dr. Andrew Simon

If you perfer the FAX MEDIA: Dr. Joseph L. Bollyky (Fax: 203-967-4845)

If you prefer the REGULAR MAIL: Dr. Odon Sandor, POB 750068, Forest Hills, NY

With best regards: Bela Liptak
+ - Hungary to place MOL shares (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Virginia Marsh in Budapest reports in the (London) Financial Times,oct.13,
1995: Hungary will launch an international private placement of up to 25
per cent of MOL, the country's oil and gas conglomerate,early next month.
It also plans to sell another stake of between 28 and 33 per cent next year,
APV Rt.the state privatization agency said yesterday.This year's placement
expected to raise around $250m,will be Hungary's largest offering to date
and is part of efforts to speed up privatization.Hungary has also announced
tenders,due to close in November,for stakes in its gas distribution and
electricity companies.APV Rt. said it would sell a further 19.5 per cent of
Richter Gedeon,Hungary's leading pharmaceuticals producer,which was partia-
lly privatised and floated last year.A 14.4 per cent stake would be placed
with institutional investors and 2 per cent through a domestic public offer.
Employees would be offered 3.1 per cent at a discount,while a further 10 per
cent would be transferred to two state social security funds.

The state, which is being advised by Schroders and Creditanstalt,last year
placed a 33.4 per cent stake in the company for $52.4m. at an offer price
of Ft.1,200. The stock,one of this year's best performers on the Budapest
Stock Exchange, lost 50 points yesterday to close at 2,250, down from a 12-
month high of 2,485. With MOL,APV will offer a further 3 per cent to domes-
tic investors and 6 per cent to employees.It has set the offer price for
employees at 140 per cent of par,around 20 percentage points above the
stock's present level in the OTC market.Staff will receive a 50 per cent
discount and other preferential peyment terms.

APV said the MOL board would meet next Monday to discuss rights to be conta-
ined in the state's "golden share" in the company. The state intends to redu-
ce its MOL stake to 25 per cent plus the golden share.Merrill Lynch, the US.
bank,and Kleinworth Benson, the London-based merchant bank,were appointed
global co-ordinators on the offering in august.MOL reported a consolidated
net loss of Ft.2.6bn ($26m) last year on net sales of Ft.270.2bn.
Toth Laci
+ - Bela Liptak's Op-Ed letter (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I would also advise Bela Liptak to rewrite his piece for the New York Times.
Andras Kornai's two points were valid and should be considered seriously. I
have said before--and received nationalistic criticism for it--that Hungarian
diplomacy rarely manages to understand the mentality of the West, as opposed,
for example, to the that of the Czechs. Gabor's and Andras's objections to
this passage is well taken--it would not reflect well on the Hungarian

Eva Balogh
+ - Answer to Charlie Vamossy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Charlie (Vamossy),

Our points of view are very similar concerning Hungarian companies, and I
will certainly not insist on my point of view's absolute validity because I
don't really know all the details of some of these foreign purchases. I am
simply basing my opinion on the nationalistic reaction to foreigners buying
up Hungarian companies. The reaction, especially on the right, is vehement
and therefore some of the stories about evil foreigners ruining Hungarian
companies are somewhat suspect. But I am not saying that it might not happen.

As for Meinl and Skala, I am sure that you are right. When I go to Hungary,
thanks to my relatives I don't have to go shopping very often, but the last
time I went I was accompanied by a young relative of mine as I spent
considerable time looking at prices, viewing the selection, comparing prices,
and so on and so forth. In front of bottles of jams my young relative pointed
to some German or Austrian jams next to the Hungarian variety and said: "Now,
Eva, if you were to buy some jam which one would you pick? Look at nothing
else but the packaging." And indeed, there was just no comparison. The
Hungarian jams' color was not so fresh-looking, the design of the labels was
poor and colorless and not on one bottle could I find the label pasted on
straight. The price was a little lower but not substantially.

Another example. On the Forum there was a discussion about foreign (French,
if I recall) milk versus Hungarian milk about a year ago. Again, the
nationalistic gripe was that Meinl and other foreign chains simply
discriminate against Hungarian milk and sell French milk only, which is three
times more expensive than the Hungarian. I couldn't quite swallow all this.
If the Hungarian milk was as good as the French and cost considerably less, I
couldn't see any sane businessman stocking only the more expensive foreign
variety simply because he wanted to discriminate against Hungarian products.
There had to be some reason for Meinl preferring French milk, said I.
Eventually the truth came out: the Hungarian milk was full of water--it has
been getting better recently but the foreign milk was better at least then,
and obviously the customer preferred the unwatered milk even if more

The situation might be different now because of the introduction of the 8
percent surcharge on imports. The prices of imported goods shot up
considerably and customers might think twice before buying foreign products.

Eva Balogh
+ - A bit more about Dr. Endrey (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am returning to the topic of Dr. Antal Endrey with some reluctance but I
feel I should correct some misinformation concerning this case. Originally we
were told that Dr. Endrey is planning to sue the World Bank or the IMF at the
American Supreme Court. Later the story changed: Dr. Endrey already sued but
at an appropriate American district court. As it turns out this is not so, at
least according to the October 3, 1995 issue of *168 ora.* According Laszlo
Bartus, a journalist, Dr. Endrey sued Michael Camdessus (head of the IMF) at
the city court of Hodmezovasarhely (ho1dmezo3va1sa1rhelyi va1rosi bi1ro1sa1g)
for 100 thousand forints ($1.00=133 Fts; thus $751.80) for damages.

What else did I discover about Dr. Endrey, our shining knight? Antal Endrey
lived in Australia until 1989 where he was pesident of a right-wing
organization, the Ausztra1liai Magyar Szo2vetse1g (Australian Hungarian
Association). In addition, he was editor-in-chief of two right-wing
publications: Ausztra1lia Magyarsa1g and Nemzeti U1jsa1g. After his return to
Hungary, he became a member of the KDNP (Christian Democratic People's Party)
and ran unsuccessfully for parliament. Soon he left the KDNP and started an
organization of his own: Magyar Kereszte1ny Mozgalom (Hungarian Christian
Movement). In 1994 he and his party joined the Kereszte1ny Nemzeti
O2sszefoga1s (Christian National Unity) (a group associated with Jo1zsef
Torgya1n's Smallholders). Since then, he broke with Torgya1n.

Dr. Endrey seems to have a close friend, A1ron Mo1nus, infamous for his book
on the Masons and instigator of a suit again Gyula Horn for apologizing for
the holocaust in one of his public speeches. Mo1nus lost the suit. Endrey
denies any connection with Mo1nus, but the two men live only a few yards from
each other in Ho1dmezo3va1sa1rhely.

I know next to nothing about Hungarian law, but in the United States I am
sure that such a suit would never get anywhere. The court would decide that
"it has no standing." What will happen in Hungary I don't know, but somehow I
don't think that Michael Camdessus will have to pay $7518.80 to Dr. Endrey.

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Romanian-Hungarian relations (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>>Also, there is no land within the current borders of Hungary that the
>>can or could have claims on,

>Do yoy want to bet on it, Paul?

>This is a bad joke, right?  Whatelse is left to steal?


The land east of the Danube, but atleast the Tisza. :-)

+ - To Andra's Kornai: Decency and fair play, please (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andras Kornai, in his critique of Bela Liptak's Op-Ed article has repeatedly
misspelled the author's name.  At first I thought it an innocent mistake, but
when I saw the name "Bella Liptalk" repeated over and over again, I realized
that it must have been intentional.  From someone of Kornai's oft
demonstrated intellectual capacity and hitherto moderate demeanor, this was
truly shocking.  I was surprised that he allowed himself the cheap trick of
making fun of someone's name.  He probably wouldn't like it if someone
referred to him as, say, Andy Korny or something similar.  Andras, I believe
you owe Be'la and the rest of us an apology.

+ - Re: Op-Ed (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


>It looks like Andras Kornai's attempt to engage Mr Liptak in a two-way
>conversation is doomed to fail.  Like any self-respecting spam artist,
>Mr Liptak seems to have write-only access to the Net.  He posts, and
>re-posts, and posts one more time to make sure.  He does not read, and
>he certainly will not stoop to respond.

I think Bela Liptak reads, but wisely ignores attempts to drag him into
senseless and tasteless exchanges of insults.  So he "will not stoop to
respond".  And why on earth should he?  The Kornai piece was not an attempt
at a conversation, but a rude debunking of a well-intentioned effort.  I
would not argue with the point that the tone of the article was overly
subjective and somewhat emotional, but that is no reason to ridicule and
denigrate it.  Helpful criticism offered with a friendly attitude would
probably have elicited a response.

As I said elsewhere, Kornai's response was a surprise to me, totally out of
character for the person I always thought him to be.  On the other hand, I am
not at all surprised by Fencik's pseudo-humorous piece.  The readers of
Hungary have had plenty of occasions to become familiar with his nihilistic
writings dressed in cutting satire.  Too bad; he seems to be genuinely gifted
and his talent seems to be wasted on this forum.  He never says anything
original; instead, he delights in negatively commenting on others' ideas.
 Since his stone is too small to build with, he throws it to destroy other
people's creations.