Ferenc Novak wrote:
> George Anthony [sic] wrote:

> >Actually, travel abroad was not restricted to the wealthy.  Hungarians have
> >been allowed to travel even to Western countries since the 1960s and did so
> >with a vengeance, on next to no money.

> How was that again?  Until the very last years of the Kadar regime (say from
> the mid-eighties) you needed all kinds of approvals -- from where you worked,
> the local police, etc.) to travel abroad, and only if someone from your
> immediate family stayed behind, or if you were a pensioner.  I have plenty
> of firsthand experience in this, having to go through lengthy procedures to
> have my parents, then my brother, and later, my fiancee to visit me.  In my
> fiancee's case nothing worked, I actually had to marry her in Hungary, and
> even that required getting all kinds of permissions prior to the civil
> ceremony.  It then took three long months before they let her leave.  So
> please don't tell me everybody could travel.  Only those the regime thought
> "reliable" -- and sometimes even they failed to return.

Sorry, but this is incorrect.  Your family may have been singled out for
whatever reason, but your case was far from typical.  For sure, one needed
all sorts of approvals, but these were mere formalities - unless you got
on to the wrong side of the holder of the stamp of approval at work, in the
Army (for draft-age males), at the Interior Ministry, etc.  For the majority
it WAS a formality.  Even for my parents (both from families of some standing
in the pre-war regime, subjected to considerable inconvenience after 1945)
it was possible to travel to the West from the early 1960s, and for the whole
immediate family to travel to Yugoslavia and to the West from the mid-1960s.
And, yes, we had a good number of relatives who left Hungary in 1956, in fact
we travelled to Western countries at their official invitation.
Perhaps the Interior Ministry was hoping that we would not return ;-)

Also, I knew numerous people in the same situation, so ours was not an
isolated case.

> You may be looking at this issue from your own perspective, if you left
> Hungary in the waning days of the Kadar regime.

Far from it: see above.

> >Well, not even high-ranking Party officials had extensive foreign-currency
> >accounts necessary for the Western education of non-residents.  The only
> >people who had such accounts were those who sold something in the West
> >(artists, scientists with royalties from Western sales of their works) or
> >foreign-trade officials who put their kick-backs into Western accounts.
>
> Those foreign trade officials were officials of the communist system, right?

This 'officials of the communist system' is a very sloppy and loose term.
The highest-ranking foreign-trade officials were part of the elite, the foreign
trade broker who could get kickbacks was not, merely a rich individual.
However, I must stress again that just being part of the elite was NOT
sufficient to send one's children to the West to study, as you implied.
And while those few who had access to foreign currency by moral means can be
considered as being part of the elite in that they were recognized and often
celebrated by the regime for what they did, this does not automatically
tarnish their reputation as you would like us to believe.

> >>  Unfortunately, until 1989 only such loyal types and their offspring were
> >> allowed to come to the West,
> >
> >"allowed" by whom ?  You are hopelessly misinformed about the consolidated
> >Kadarism.  As I already pointed it out, the regime mostly allowed people to
> >travel: denial of exit permits was the exception, not the rule.
>
> See above.  Do you have any firsthand evidence to support what you say?

Indeed: see above.

> >Most (not all, but most) people who wanted to leave could do it with the
> >relative dignity of a pretence trip to Vienna.
>
> See above.  Obviously you are talking very late Kadar-regime.

Far from it: see above.

George Antony

First I would like to note that Ferenc Nova1k(i?) at least has a name. He is
unwilling to share it, but others like Ga1bor Elek obviously know him.  Unlike
the "Szu3cs" cited by NFerenc, which is a clear manifestation of someone else,
"Rambo1" A1rpi seems to be an actual person (not a complete person with a name
and a face, but still better than what we get from pelliovalley). So I will
respond to them as best as I can.  There are several issues here, let's try to
arrange them in some logical order.

1) Is FORUM a hotbed of antisemitism/(neo)nazism?
2) Is NPA an antisemite/(neo)nazi?
3) Was he fired from his job?
4) Was he fired because of alleged antisemitism/(neo)nazism?
5) Was he fired as a result of denunciation?
6) Should FORUM be closed?

1) The answer will obviously depend on one's perceptions of what constitutes
antisemitism or (neo)nazism. I submit that in Hungary antisemitism/(neo)nazism
is not a significant problem (racism, particularly in the form of racial
hatred directed against Gypsies _is_ a significant problem, but we'll leave
this to the side here), as shown by the low (1-2%) vote that MIE1P regularly
gathers.  To me, MIE1P members and their leader, Istva1n Csurka, are
first-class antisemites, and this perception is shared not only by virtually
every Hungarian Jew that I know but also by the vast majority of the religious
Christians and the non-religious Hungarians alike. So 1) can be rephrased: is
FORUM a hotbed of MIE1Pers? The answer seems to be yes. I don't have the
stomach to go over a large number of issues, but it seems to me that the key
points of the MIE1P agenda, including "Hungary is controlled by the Tel Aviv-
New York conspiracy", "SZDSZ is a Jewish party", etc. etc. get extensive
exposure there.

2) On May 21 I took the trouble to list on HUNGARY the specific points made by
NPA (note their similarity to the general MIE1P line) and their antisemitic
content is not in the slightest doubt. Besides the material directly quoted
(and translated by Ga1bor Farkas) the FORUM archives have piles and piles of
his stuff.

3) Neme1nyi supplied no evidence that he was fired from his job, and his story
is highly implausible. I challange NPA to produce the official Argonne letter
of dismissal, or any other proof of his story. Until that happens, his version
of the events must be treated with the greatest skepticism.

4) From what I gather from Neme1nyi's own postings, antisemitism plays no role
in the charges against him. Not that he is _not_ an antisemite, of course he
is, but this is not a relevant cause for dismissing an employee. So before
people like Ga1bor Elek lend him ill-deserved moral support, they should at
least wait until due process takes its course, and see if NPA is really and
truly dismissed, and if so, on what basis.

5) Neme1nyi is particularly upset that Ga1bor Farkas found his net activities
during working hours unseemly, and since this is the major charge against him,
he is convinced that Farkas denounced him to his employers. It is quite
conceivable, indeed probable, that the combined effects of my digging out the
stuff from the FORUM archives (note that these were statements the existence
of which was flatly denied by NFerenc and other NPA-supporters) and Ga1bor's
translation led indirectly to his denunciation -- finally someone had the
ammunition to do something about it. But again, the US is not a totalitarian
country, even if the Freemen think otherwise. Public employees have various
protections against arbitrary dismissal, including the right to a hearing,
right to counsel, and right to appeal.  An instant firing on the basis of some
random letter(s) of denunciation, with no investigation, no hearing, and no
opportunity to appeal is inconceivable.

6) Let me start by saying that Jo1zsi Hollo1si is a personal friend, and I
have great respect for the work he did for the Hungarian net.community. For
this reason, I've been pressuring him, in private correspondence, for quite
some time now to close down FORUM.  It's not so much the contents of FORUM
that I want stopped as Jo1zsi's association to these jackals. Let a hundred
flowers bloom, and let pelliovalley.com take over the bu2do2ske, it's not
going to hurt the good doctor's reputation the same way it hurts Jo1zsi's.

Finally, a slight correction. This has nothing to do with the main line of
the questions raised by NFerenc and Rambo1 A1rpi, but one says:
NF > Why do you consider [being called a Jew] an insult?  I know people who
NF > are proud of it.
and the other says:
RA > when Dr.Pellionnis called you a "jew",you were offended.
RA > Since when is a offence to call a "jew" a "jew"?

I didn't say I was insulted or offended, I said I was upset. The matter of my
Jewish identity is rather complex, and suffice it to say that whether I'm
Jewish is not for the good doctor to decide. For you, fellas, I'm actually
delighted to be >>a "jew"<<.

Andra1s Kornai

Can anyone out there give me info on the standard escape route taken to
Austria from BP in 1956.  If there was more than one route, please give me
as many as you know.  What I need are some of the towns covered on the
route(s), then I can find them on my map of Hungary and plot the route(s).

Also, if anyone wants to share their escape story, I'd love to hear it.
But if you haven't time for that, please just tell me the route(s).

Could you send your reply to me privately, since I don't want to take up
the Board's time and space.  Just reply to: 

Much appreciated!

Burian

Thanks for the input.

I did have an idea of the specifics of the Marshall Plan, but I think the
general philosophy behind it was to enable each country to become
economically stabilized so that it wouldn't be vulnerable to social
unrest, leading to fanaticism.  If that truly was the philosophy behind
it, I can't think of a better first step than to subsidize the very basics
of life while the country gets on its feet.  But I guess that is noble by
the world's standards.  (Though it's also economically sound in the long
run, if it ensures a good transition to a free society.)

Burian

At 04:33 AM 6/12/96 -0400, you wrote:
>Thanks for the input.
>
>I did have an idea of the specifics of the Marshall Plan, but I think the
>general philosophy behind it was to enable each country to become
>economically stabilized so that it wouldn't be vulnerable to social
>unrest, leading to fanaticism.

You are on the right track.  The social unrest and fanaticism it tried to
prevent were a return to Nazism or a turn to Communism.  Of course, the
United States also had a lot less altruistic, nevertheless worthwile goal:
to align the recepient countries on her side, instead of the Soviet side.
She was succesfull and achieved that goal and NATO was born.

>If that truly was the philosophy behind
>it, I can't think of a better first step than to subsidize the very basics
>of life while the country gets on its feet.  But I guess that is noble by
>the world's standards.  (Though it's also economically sound in the long
>run, if it ensures a good transition to a free society.)
>

I wish I could agree with you...  Unfortunately, experience shows that a
significant portion of the influx of monies into Hungary after 1990 was
still spent on subsidising failing state enterprises, maintaining
artificially high employment rates and indirectly subsidising public social
benefits.   Heaven knows, it's difficult to blame Antall and his government
for doing this, for they truly wanted to achieve both goals of sucessfully
transitioning to a free market economy while maintaining high social
benefits.  A noble aim, which unfortunately didn't quite work out that way.
Now Hungary has an even higher foreign debt, while the basic problems are
still not solved completely (although significant progress has been made, I
think.)

I don't envy anyone, regardless of political party, who tries to tackle this
extremely difficult problem, rather, I wish them wisdom, patience, luck, and
God's blessings.   They surely need all of them.

>Burian
>

Please don't take my comments as a coldhearted rejection of the plight of
millions of pensioners in Hungary and Central Europe.  We just have
different approaches to solving their problems.

>

best regards,

Charlie Vamossy

Dear fellow-listmembers:

As I struggle along reading this list via telnet from Prague, I was
interested to note the name of the town in Transylvania that Andra1s
was asking about--Cehul Sylvaniei wasn't it?  (something like that, I
believe...).  Is that a reference to Czech as in where I am now?  Were
there Czech "colonists" in Transylvania at some point during its centuries
of colourful history?

Are there any left now?

On another topic, I too once visited the Haraszthi vineyards in California,
and though I remember a passable sherry I don't think there was anything
specifically Hungarian.  Once on a trip through South Australia, though,
we stumbled on a vineyard run by a Hungarian family (it was in the
Barossa valley, in a town called Tanunda (? memory could be faulty here)).
We sampled the usual variety of reds & whites [I refer to _wines_ of course!]
and then more out of idle curiosity and desire to show off than anything else,
I asked if they made a Tokaj.  Maybe it was just unusual for anyone to ask,
or maybe it was that my undergrad history prof forced us to learn at least
how to pronounce all the names in his East European History class, so I got
a passable imitation of the correct pronunciation out -- anyway, she said,
yes, actually, they did, though it wasn't scheduled to be released until the
following week at some festival or other.  However, she sold me a bottle,
and very nice it was indeed.  (I know it's a long trek, George Antony, but
maybe if you're ever out Adelaide way you could look them up?).

Still on the Tokaj topic:  is it a protected designation like the French
Champagne is (I understand)?  The local grocery store here (Prague 6) has
several bottles, labelled Tokaj, designated 5, 4, etc. puttonyos, but
Product of Slovakia.  Was part of the Tokaj-producing region in what became
Slovakia?

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew


P.S. I can still try to take care of listowner-type problems, but via telnet
and with the phone lines in Prague still kind of wonky, it may take a little
longer than usual.

The Internet Expo's Hungarian Pavilion is officially open and can be
found at

        http:/www.idg.hu/expo

It will take you through ages by virtually boarding the centennial little
(yellow) Metro stations of Budapest.  (This Metro was built second in the
world - only after the one in Paris, - and has recently been renovated.)

At each station there is a different topic explored from the country's
history or cultural heritage.  It is still under construction and will
have additions as time goes by.

Check it out (for me, too, as I still can't see any graphics!  >:((((  )
and enjoy!

Happy visit!
Martha

* Supermodel Naomi Campbell has reportedly been sued for not showing
  up for a scheduled talk show appearance on Hungarian TV in a seashell.
    - Campbell was to emerge from the shell as the "Black Venus."
    - the show's production company is suing Campbell for $500,000.



* Georgia Institute of Technology found average user of World Wide
  Web is a 33-year-old white English-speaking male with an income of
  $59,000.
    - 31.5% of people on Web are women.

Returned mail: User unknown (fwd)

Sorry; I needed to send this through the list since Jozsi has no e-mail
address.

>From http: Wed Jun 12 16:47:37 1996
Date: Tue, 11 Jun 1996 18:17:32 -0700
From: "Joseph U. & Sharon W. Hill" <"http://candles"@community.net>
To: "S. Bihari" >
Subject: Re: A new Marshall Plan and other economic matters

(snip)

> Martha"Give me a fish and you've fed me for a day. Teach me to fish and you
have fed me for life!"
Jozsi


Jozsi,
Your motto is used by - I believe - the Peace Corps.  I subscribe to it
wholeheartedly!

Thanks for your input.
Martha

Lectoris Salutem!
        Today one can read in a Hungarian newspaper "Uj Magyarorszag (Nem
lesz... 1.o.)":

  Balint Magyar minister of Culture and Education, Gabor Demszky Chief
Mayor of Budapest and Ivan Fischer leader of the Budapest
Festival-Orchestra in these days have agreed that in the program of the
festive concert on June 30 in the Heroes Square - which will be a part of
the millecentenary solemn occasions - not the Requiem of Mozart but a
Rhapsody of Liszt and the Rakoczi-march of Berlioz will be performed.

        This piece of news drives me to comment especially because my
posting of about 10 days ago triggered some discussion on this list...
        - I repeatedly declare, that I deeply love Mozart's music...
        - but I am glad to learn, that the program of the festive concert
has been changed...
        - I am also glad that my posting and the discussion was not in
vain...
        - with the knowledge of the above news I publicly apologize for
mentioning any family relation of Mr. Demszky...
        - still the generous offer of the Union of Hungarian Symphonic
Orchestrae (to perform without royalty a representative concert selected
from works of Erkel, Liszt, Bartok and Kodaly) was left without answer by
Gabor Demszky, the idea was partly "borrowed" instead, and this I and the
Budapest tax-payers cannot be glad of...
        May God bless us all...                 kadargyorgy