You may be "ancient" Charles but your dead right!  I recall Churchill's
comment about the RAF, "never in world history have so many owed so much
to so few."  To paraphrase Wordsworth, "Churchill thou shouldst be living
at this hour, England hath need of thee."


--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

Point of information, George.  Are you suggesting that Hungary should
become an appendage of the FRG?  Or did I misread your post?
        I hope I misread it.  For the carnage in B-H which threatens to in-
volve Hungary if the Serbs try to subjugate Voyvodina as they have subjugated
Kosovo, was really initiated by a foolish German policy of premature recog-
nition of Slovenia and Croatia (perhaps owing to 450,000 Croatian "Gastar-
beiter" in the FRG) under then FRG-FM Hans Dietrich Genscher.  Then having
started the tragedy, the Germans "wimped out" by pleading legal obstacles
to sending military aid via their Basic Law.  Thus they added what seems
from America to be hypocrasy to their foreign policy error!     I expect
Ameica to lead via "Lift and Strike" because nobody in Europe or Russia
is willing to lead and this horror will consume Europe, I fear, unless
stopped.  Major, Balladur, and Kohl + Yeltsin together can't even match
Metternich in halting the carnage!
        Only America can provide the moral and political and military
authority to do the job.  I do believe that ground troops will *NOT*
be needed since every time the West has seriously moved the Serbs (both
in Belgrade *and* Pale have drawn back.
        I would be interested in responses on this thread.


--
Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College
401-232-6246
>

Glen writes to George A.:

> was really initiated by a foolish German policy of premature recog-
> nition of Slovenia and Croatia (perhaps owing to 450,000 Croatian "Gastar-
> beiter" in the FRG) under then FRG-FM Hans Dietrich Genscher.  Then having
> started the tragedy, the Germans "wimped out" by pleading legal obstacles
> to sending military aid via their Basic Law.  Thus they added what seems
> from America to be hypocrasy to their foreign policy error!     I expect

I don't understand this.  What do you mean by "premature"?  Why would
that have been better later?  The way I see it time was working for the
Serbs who -- if given enough -- could have occupied all the republics
the way they did Voivodina and Kosovo just to prevent the dissolution
of that artificial state.

I think Germans knew how artificial it was and with the early
recognition they hoped to forestall any Serb moves against the UN-recognized
republics.  I think the Germans were right in this but their idea could
not work with Eagleburger giving the signal for the Serbs to go ahead
with keeping Yugoslavia together.

This signal reminds me the one Eisenhower gave to the Soviets 38 years
ago when an alleged State Dept cable was sent to Moscow, saying
something to the effect that the United States government understands
Soviet concerns about the establishment of hostile neighbor governments
and would not encourage such governments to come about.  (Dont's ask me
for the source of this, but I think it was a US congressman who
mentioned seeing that cable.)

> America to lead via "Lift and Strike" because nobody in Europe or Russia
> is willing to lead and this horror will consume Europe, I fear, unless
> stopped.

That absurd arms embargo on the victim Bosnia speaks louder about the real
intentions of the West than all the pious words from the collective
mouths of its politicians.  Just lift that embargo and there would be no
need for Western troops there.

Joe Pannon

Steve P. has a good advice to Mark and Gotthard:

> ya gotta export to import.... more Followups... more Posts and
>then this group will get alive again (away from the 3-4 folks who argue here
>all the tyme)... happy to share in your concern... :)

I think you should start practicing what you preach.  I don't
particularly recall much contribution on your part that would justify
your sage advise.

Joe

me thinks taht someone oughta ask someone else! QUICK! Before we all forget
what REALLY happened. P & G are but 2 folks among 50K... i thought Maleter
was a max AH but turned out a good guy... iz this just urbane folklore?

com'n people this happened ONLY 40 yrs ago! The barrack trivia is historicism
in poverty!

let's get it right! Sumthin DID or DID NOT happen at Corvin Ko"r! Them dead
kids, gasoline bottles and black painted dish-plates had something to do with
it...

confused about this thread! :(
sp

 wrote:
: Joe Pannon wrote in connection with Gosztonyi's role in the October
: Revolution,

: >Gosztonyi was in the Kilian Barracks during
: >the fighting at the end of October.  However, his account of that fight
: >contradicts of that given by the commander of the Corvin Place (Koz),
: >across the Barracks.  G. Pongratz, the commander maintains that Maleter
: >was really not on the side of the revolutionaries and only switched when
              ^^^
huh?

Would someone advise Hugh that there is a logjam on the net. I have
misplaced his e:mail address.
Regards,Jeliko.

give a Hungarian friend hard (real) dollars and ask him/her to give it into
the hand of you friend. Short of that, airmail sum stoopid Family Circle
magazine with $50s or $100s pasted between the pefume ads...

a dollar in hand iz worth 50 in the bank...

sp

Gotthard Saghi-Szabo ) wrote:

: Mark Fletcher writes:

: >Having just signed up for this e-mail thingy, I decided to join a few
: >news-groups that covered areas of interest to me. Being a fairly regular
: >visitor to Hungary this news-group was a must.
: >
: >However, after 3 weeks on the system and no messages, I am forced to ask
: >
: >1. Is there any news? - or does the whole country feel that there is
: >nothing worth communicating.
look around (HIX duz the news "thingy" daily) gopher hix.elte.hu

: >2. Is there any group? - Am I the only person outside Hungary who feels
: >that this list is worth subscribing to, or has the system gone down
: >through over use?
unlikely... lots of us just check-in and check-out w.o. sayin much

: >Mark Fletcher


: Mark,
: I am having the same problem here, in the USA (btw. you can find the
: daily postings
: of the  bit.listserv.hungary group under "*** HUNGARY *** ####"
: headers in the
: soc.culture.magyar group), no postings appear in the  bit.listserv.hungary
: USENET group on my site.
: Is there anyone who reads the bit.listserv.hungary group on the USENET
: rather
: than subscribing to the list ? Do you get all of the postings with
: no problem?
all the time! main prob is USENET delivery sumtimes is 12-20 hours late. :(

: Take care,
: Gotthard

Mark & Gotthard: check out alt.bitterness or alt.angst for these kinds of
chatters... ya gotta export to import.... more Followups... more Posts and
then this group will get alive again (away from the 3-4 folks who argue here
all the tyme)... happy to share in your concern... :)

later
sp

In article >,  (Stephen Paredes)
writes:

>Mark & Gotthard: check out alt.bitterness or alt.angst for these kinds of
>chatters... ya gotta export to import.... more Followups... more Posts and
>then this group will get alive again (away from the 3-4 folks who argue here
>all the tyme)... happy to share in your concern... :)
>
>later
>sp

Stephen,
I do not think you got it right  ;-)
- due to some technical problems,
the bit.listserv.hungary newsgroup is empty at my site, although
it is clear from the HIX-HUNGARY on soc.culture.magyar, that the
list is alive. Let me repeat my question - I was wondering whether
the contributors to the list used the bit.listserv.hungary on USENET,
or they used email after subscribing to the listserver. It seems to me,
unless you post an article directly to the newsgroup - rather than
sending mail  to the listserver - the articles will not appear at
my site.
Am I mistaken, that the listserv mail should appear here, on
bit.listserv.hungary? I thought the whole reason to create this group was
to activate those , who otherwise would not participate , due to the
annoying amount of email you would get daily.


In article >,  (Garry Collins)
writes

>Several months ago, our network feed was changed, and around that time I
stopped getting
>listserv mail. I thought that it was "just me", but maybe there is another
reason.
>Maybe I should re-subscribe?.
>Any ideas anyone?.

It seems it is not only my problem. I do not know who is the administrator
of this group, but, would you please look into the possible BITNET <-> USENET
transfer problem - if there is any at all.
Take care,
Gotthard

Jeliko asks someone to advise me that there is a logjam on the net; there's
no need to ask someone else to do it--I read the Hungary list postings at
least once a day from my study in our flat in Prague 6 (the wonders of
the net, it's almost as easy to do as from the study in our house in the
suburbs of Washington).

Jeliko, what sort of logjam were you talking about?  I was away for a
few days over the national holiday (October 28th, maybe not celebrated in
Hungary particularly, but still--this year at least--a national holiday in
the Czech republic), but I was not aware of any great difficulty, beyond
the usual bounced mail messages that appear all the time, when someone
leaves without clearing their account, or when connections are down.  Twice
recently we have generated so much activity that the 50-message-per-day
limit was invoked by Listserv, and I had to manually release messages,
but it only involved six messages once, and a dozen or so the other time.

By the way, Garry's site in New Zealand has been one of the sources of
bounced mail messages, saying "unable to connect to host site for seven days"--
why, I dunno, nor what to suggest to do about it, since it's a glitch at the
site, I would guess, not with GWU's listserv.

As for the general question about bit.listserv.hungary, that was set up and,
as far as I know, is trouble-shot (? trouble-shooted?) by the kind folks at
American University, simply as a service to readers who aren't connected to
sites that Bitnet can reach.  Why traffic shouldn't be appearing on this
list at certain sites is beyond me, but again I'd suggest that maybe a
question to the local site administrator who handles newsgroups, or possibly
even a question to the AU folks, might give an answer.

Certainly it was set up to be two-way, that is mail sent to the listserv
should appear on bit.listserv.hungary, and vice-versa.

A puzzle for All Saints Day.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew

George Antony writes:
> The German orientation is necessary, as it is still the Germans who put
> their money, at least, where their mouth is.
Perhaps their money, but not one Pomeranian grenadier... You seem not to
realize that Karadzic and the other thugs don't understand anything but force.

Andra1s Kornai

In article >,  (Mark)
writes:

>HI my name is Mark and I am looking for a book on how to learn how to speak
Hungarian.
>It is difficult to find in Oklahoma. I can't even find a Hungarian Dictionary
out here.
>It would be wonderful to acquire a Hungarian written and published version.

Hi Mark,
according to many, the following is one of the best books available to
study Hungarian from :

1. Payne, Jerry.
     Colloquial Hungarian / Jerry Payne.  London ; New York : Routledge & K.
   Paul, 1987.
     Series title:  Colloquial series.
       PH2111 .P39 1987

   SOUND RECORDING
   Payne, Jerry.
     Colloquial Hungarian / Jerry Payne.  London ; New York : Routledge & K.
   Paul, 1987.
     1 sound cassette.
     Series title:  Colloquial series.


You might want to try to buy it in some of the bigger local bookstores,
or by mailorder. Interlibrary loan would be another option.


>Also, a college womens basketball team is coming to play in Oklahoma in a
couple of
>weeks and it would be wonderful to make contact with any of the visitors.

Hm, a whole college womens basketball team.
Yeapp, that contact sure would be nice  ;-)
Take care and good luck to your Hungarian studies,
Gotthard

Charles writes:
> that the principle still operates.  The melting pot never was.  A man
> called Israel Zangwill wrote a play by that name shortly after the turn
> of the century.  Zangwill himself, however, became a Zionist shortly
> after and rejected the theme of the play himself.  The fundamental
> idea that an American was a new creature to whom ethnicity and national
> heritage were irrelevent is old enough, going back to Crevecouer's
> *Letters from an American Farmer* in the 18th century.  But it never
> was true in the real world.
>Charles

It is not that Americans are new creatures to whom ethnicity and national
 heritage are  irrelevent, but rather we have created a new, common
culture and national heritage.  As an American, I feel I have more in
common with my Italian-American, Irish-American, Polish-American, and yes,
African-American compatriots, than to anyone in Hungary, and this only
makes sense since I was raised here to embrace my American-ness.  Most
European-American and African-Aamerican children are raised with their
identity focused on their here-and-now, and not with another culture
expected to define their identities, and this is what has produced the
melting pot - before the rise of the horrible multiculturalism monster.

Paul "melted in the pot" Gelencser

I have a non-refundable Malev roundtrip ticket to HUngary which I
may not be able to use.  I was told it is not transferable, but I
am hoping someone out there knows how I can unload them.  The
ticket is good till mid-December.

Paul

Gotthard Wrote:

>according to many, the following is one of the best books available to
>study Hungarian from :
>1. Payne, Jerry.
>     Colloquial Hungarian / Jerry Payne.  London ; New York : Routledge & K.
>   Paul, 1987.
>.
>.
>.

I second that - the Jerry Payne book is great!!  Very practical and hands-on;
 not
a detailed text on all the grammer rules - just enough grammer rules to get the
drift, but it is NOT just memorizing phrases like the Berlitz tapes.  But the
 most
important thing I learned to now in my quest to learn Magyar is that learning a
language (I also tried French once)takes more practice and hard work than
 anothing
I've tried to learn, and I went to engineering school.

Good luck, and practice, practice, practice.

Paul

Charles wrote:

--I try not to post anymore, since I was flamed for raising non-Hungarian
>issues, but I simply cannot sit on my hands on this one.  Please, guys,

Charles, please, please, please, post whenever you feel motivated to do so.
Even if the discussion takes a shirt detour, it's worth the good stuff you
add to the discussion.  I find great value in what you write (sometimes :-) ),
especially because you frequently add some new info, insight, or history to
the discussion.  PLEASE POST,  DAMN IT!

Paul

Be1la BATKAY wrote:

>Jewish ancestry--why would you think so?  Finally, it may have been just a
>typo, and it may just be my over-sensitivity, but my understanding is that
>one does not refer to "Jew" or "non-Jew" ancestry unless one is deliberately
>trying to be insulting.  The correct (and I don't mean "politically correct")
>term is "Jewish" or "non-Jewish".  They mean exactly the same thing of course,
>but in civilized society nuance is everything.

Well, since Jews use the term 'Jew', I guess it's ok for anyone to use it,
 right?
Civility and nuance have nothing to do with each other - you must be thinking
of politics and nuance, but then, politics has nothing to do with your comment.

Why would the word 'Jew' be insulting?  I must not know something you do.

Paul

Happy October 23rd, Eva Balogh.

Paul