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1 Slovak-Hungarian agreement (mind)  146 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Slovak-Hungarian agreement (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
3 CEU Prague Summer School (mind)  198 sor     (cikkei)
4 Travel Companion from Budapest to Pecs (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: "Lower Slovakia" (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Slovak-Hungarian agreement (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Csaba Zolta1ni wonders why the Slovak-Hungarian basic treaty was any good,
"in the light of the very negative press reports coming from Europe" and
"completely leaving aside comments of the people adversely affected".  Well,
the only people adversely affected seem to be the Romanian diplomats, who at
this point are hard put to explain why they couldn't agree to the same terms
the Slovaks agreed to. Hungarian diplomacy succeeded in pulling the poison
fang of the Romanian semi-official line "We can't settle because the
Hungarians don't want to". This by itself merits the term "coup" especially
in light of the historical precedent which had Slovakia and Romania forming
a "Little Entente" against Hungary.

As for the negative press reports, I have no idea what you are talking
about. I'm sure Magyar Fo1rum was negative. However, even Ge1za Jeszenszky,
Secretary of State under the Antall/Boross government, endorsed the treaty
for the most part. The basic reality against which this Basic Treaty must be
measured is the fact that both Slovakia and Romania are terrified of
Hungarian agression, that the Hungarian participation in the 1968 Warsaw
Pact agression against Czechoslovakia is viewed as proof positive of
Hungarian revanche-ist intentions and that the population of these countries
have been subjected to massive amounts of propaganda on this matter (read
TGM's article about this in Magyar Narancs two weeks ago).

It is, by the way, perfectly reasonable to conclude on the basis of reading
Magyar Fo1rum that Hungarians are eager to reclaim the "lost territories" --
the only problem is that MF is not particularly representative of Hungarian
popular opinion in general.  TGM mentiones in a subordinate clause that
neither Slovaks nor Romanians can bring themselves to believe how little
contemporary Hungarians care about these territories. In fact, many emigre
Hungarians find this hard to believe, but in fact the overwhelming majority of
Hungarians living within Hungary's borders couldn't care less. Since the
net.audience changes every six months, e1s egy u1jszu2lo2ttnek minden vicc
u1j, I take the liberty to repost below something from three years ago:

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pe1ter Neme1nyi writes:
> It seems like for the Hungarians the subject of
> lost territory is a forbidden  subject. If any one of them would even talk
> about the subject, he or she would become a naci or "worst" !

This was quite true under the communists but is no longer true.  Most
political parties (all the ones in Parliament, with the possible
exception of Mr. Torgya1n's Kisgazdapa1rt) have adopted an official
platform of not raising any territorial claims, but there are quite a
few private individuals in these parties who don't agree with this,
and there are some parties outside Parliament that reject the Trianon
treaty in their platform, so the subject is discussed in public now
and again.

> There are other countries fighting for the long lost territory, which is ok.
> but for a  Hungarian talking about it's borders is a sin , and to form  an
> opinion about it is a subject better to to be avoided.

When so many parties do the same thing it is hard to explain it on the
basis of "sin" -- there's bound to be some rational reason why only so
few are interested in these long lost territories. The fact is that
very few Hungarians remember pre-Trianon Hungary (if you were 18 years
old at the time of the treaty, you are over ninety years now) or even
the WWII readjustments of borders (if you were 18 in 1938, you are 72

Against the beautiful memories of a few elderly people stand the harsh
realities that most Hungarians have seen in the last 5-10 years during
their tourist and business trips to these parts. The fact is that the
most important lost territories including the Highlands (Felvide1k)
and Transsylvania (Erde1ly) are incredibly poor and backwards places,
even when compared to the poorest regions of present-day Hungary such
as Szabolcs megye (Szabolcs county). True, they were flowering centers
of trade, agriculture, industry and culture in the 19th century, but
what difference does that make when you think of saddling today's
Hungary with 10 or 15 new Szabolcs counties. Go visit Munka1cs, or
even Kolozsva1r, and you will understand why people don't want it.

Even a rich country such as the former West Germany has incredible
problems in bringing up the regained territories to European
standards, so imagine how much extra effort this would take in the
case of the Highlands or Transsylvania which were nowhere near the
development level of former East Germany.  Further, Hungary would have
to cope with significant populations of Slovaks and Romanians within
the enlarged borders, while at present it enjoys a culturally
overwhelmingly homogeneous population of Hungarians.

So the popular sentiment is "who needs all this poverty?" and the big
parties, because of pure political self-interest, not because of some
moral qualms about "sin", are basing their platforms on this popular
sentiment. This of course leaves open the issue of territories lost in
the southern and western parts, since these are as well or (at least
in the case of the part now Austria) better developed than the best
regions of Hungary. However, these regions are comparatively small,
and the idea of Hungary trying to gain control of Burgenland would
probably cause more harm (in terms of hurting the good neighborly
relations with Austria) than the territory is worth.

As for Ba1cska, this region is now under control of fiercly
nationalistic Serbia, which makes it unlikely they would peacfully
return it, even if there was a plebiscite supporting such a redrawing
of borders. The last thing Hungarians want is an armed conflict with
Serbia: this would pull us headfirst in the whole Balkans mess that
even the great powers are reluctant to enter. How could tiny Hungary
send soldiers to a war that the US and NATO are afraid of entering?

To make the point in American terms, suppose a terrible injustice was
done to your grandfather: his neighbor stole grandpa's Model T Ford in
1920.  The new "owner"'s family invested in the car a certain amount,
and by 1992 they had something like a 62 Chevy. Your grandpa somehow
survived the theft and worked hard to get a better car, so your family
now drives a 74 Civic. What you really want is a brand new Mercedes,
but being realistic, you only hope that in a few years you can upgrade
to a Ford that has maybe only 30k miles on it. Now your chance comes:
with a great deal of litigation and pain you can recover the 62 Chevy,
or at least some fraction of it. You will of course have to pay taxes
on it, make sure it passess the smog test, increase your insurance
coverage, and put up with the ever-resentful grandson of grandpa's
neighbor (this family is still your next-door neighbor!) who claims,
not unjustifiably, that this Chevy is still better than the old Model
T was, and that it was their primary means of transportation. So what
would you do, knowing full well that getting the Chevy would also mean
you will have to take their great-grandchildren to school every day?
Grandpa of course remembered the old Model T, the apple of his eye, to
his dying day, and would never talk of the neighbor (or his children
and grandchildren) in anything but the most derogatory terms. Maybe he
succeeded in instilling some desire to recover the car in his son (your
father) but dad was in fact realistic enough to buy that Civic. So now
that your turn has come to pursue the family dream of catching up with
the Joneses, which way would you go? Litigate for the Chevy (blue book
value $400, legal advice $100/hour) or try to get a better job that
will actually pay for the 1991 Ford you have your eyes on?

I apologize to those "neighbors" who feel insulted by the implication
that parts of their homelands were originally not theirs but "stolen".
This is how most Hungarians felt at the time of the Trianon treaty,
but I agree that this is a complex matter that would actually take a
great deal of "litigation" to resolve. But the main point of my little
fable was that the issue is moot: even if Hungary had perfect rights
to these territories (and I'm not claiming it does) Hungarians don't
find the idea of "reclaiming" these industrial, social, political, and
ecological disaster areas attractive.

But I make no apologies for describing these areas in such harsh
terms: Hungary has its own troubles (and disaster areas) but the
misery you find there is nothing compared to the troubles these places
have.  Slovaks in particular should think twice before making
unsubstantiated claims about Hungary's wanting their land. If Slovakia
was such a desirable piece of real estate, how come their Czech
brethren are so eager to get rid of it?
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: Slovak-Hungarian agreement (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andras Kornai wrote:

: Csaba Zolta1ni wonders why the Slovak-Hungarian basic treaty was any good,

Now, is that fair?  He asked why it should be considered brilliant, or a coup.

: "in the light of the very negative press reports coming from Europe" and
: "completely leaving aside comments of the people adversely affected".  Well,
: the only people adversely affected seem to be the Romanian diplomats,

Sorry, I got the impression that Slovako-Magyars (should that be
Hungaro-Slovaks?) were `adversely affected' by the treaty, at least in their
humble opinions, and the negative reports have, I guess, to do with the
judgement that the treaty may just have been a papering over of differences for
the sake of appearances.

: The basic reality against which this Basic Treaty must be
: measured is the fact that both Slovakia and Romania are terrified of
: Hungarian agression...

Mit der Dummheit ka2mpfen Go2tter selbst vergebens.

Sorry, the Emperor may have a feather in his cap, but he's a long way from

+ - CEU Prague Summer School (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

       Prague Summer School in Comparative Social Research
                   Central European University

The  Central European University is pleased to announce the  1995
Prague  Summer School in Comparative Social Research, which  will
take place from 31 July to 25 August, 1995.

The Summer School provides a unique opportunity for scholars from
East  and West to meet and to understand more about  contemporary
change  in  the region through the study  of  detailed  empirical
data.   It  would be of interest to post-graduate  students,  re-
searchers  and other academics with a particular interest in  the
field.   We  are  particularly trying to  target  Professors  and
University  teachers  who may not have time to  attend  a  longer
course, but who may seek up-dating in more recent social  science

The  course will cover two main themes of Comparative Surveys  of
Political  Values and Attitudes, and Household Change and  Coping
Strategies.   Lecturers will consist of internationally  renowned
social scientists and there will be small seminars with intensive
PC analysis of data sets specially created to meet student inter-

There  are  free places and stipends for up to 35  scholars  from
Eastern  and Central Europe that will cover housing,  living  ex-
penses  and  transportation.  For students from  Western  Europe,
North  America  and elsewhere, a tuition charge of $400  will  be
charged.   Some fee waivers are available.  Also,  students  from
North America and Great Britain are eligible to apply for  travel
grants from IREX and the British Council.

The  Prague  Summer School is sponsored by the  Higher  Education
Support Programme of the Soros Foundation.

An  application form is attached to this announcement.  For  more
detailed information, please feel free to contact:

                       Dr. Claire Wallace
                     Department of Sociology
                 The Central European University
                          Taboritska 23
                         130 87 Praha 3
                        Ceska Republicka
                     Tel/Fax: [42-2] 277-658

                        APPLICATION FORM
      Prague Summer School in Comparative Social Research


          (last)          (first)

CONTACT  ADDRESS at which you can be reached between now and  the
end of July 1995
          (Number and Street)
          (City)              (Country)           (Post Code)

Contact Telephone Number_________________________________________

PRESENT ADDRESS:_________________________________________________
                        (Number and Street)
          (City)              (Country)           (Post Code)

Telephone Number_________________________________________________

Date of Birth____________________________________________________
               (Month)        (Day)          (Year)


Passport Number___________________Place of Issue_________________


Which is your first language?____________________________________

Which other languages do you speak, read or write? (Please  cate-
gorize as GOOD, FAIR, or POOR)

Language       Reading             Speaking            Writing

1. English:______________________________________________________
2. _______:______________________________________________________
3. _______:______________________________________________________
4. _______:______________________________________________________

If  you  have  taken the Test of English as  a  Foreign  Language
(TOEFL) Exam or other equivalent (eg. ELTS), please indicate  the

Name of Test        Date           Location            Score


Knowledge of Computing
1. SPSS__________________________________________________________
2. Other packages________________________________________________
3. ______________________________________________________________
4. ______________________________________________________________


It is possible for you to attend a two week introductory  course,
to  better familiarise yourself with working in English or  SPSS?
The  numbers  on these courses will be very  restricted.   Please
indicate  below  if you would be interested in attending  such  a

I would like to attend preparatory course in English: ___Yes___No
Please give reasons:

I would like to attend the preparatory course in SPSS:___Yes___No
Please give reasons:


1. Present Employer/Institution_________________________________

Position and Duties:

Period of Employment:____________________________________________

2. Previous Employer/Institution:________________________________

Position and Duties:

Period of Employment:____________________________________________

3. Other Previous Employer/Institution:

Position and Duties:

Period of Employment:____________________________________________

Please  indicate why you would like to attend the  Prague  Summer
School in Comparative Social Research and how this would fit with
your research and career plans.

Please provide the following additional Information :

*  your curriculum vitae
*  transcripts from your university (if available)
*  list of publications (if you have any)
*  your e-mail number

There is likely to be a competition for places, so this  informa-
tion will be used to select between applicants

Please send all information to:

Dr. Claire Wallace
Director of Summer School
Central European University
POB 114
Taboritska 23
130 87 Praha 3
Ceska Republika

Tel/Fax: (42-2) 277 658
+ - Travel Companion from Budapest to Pecs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

          The teenage son of a colleague of mine is travelling from
New York to Pecs by Malev Airlines Flight 91 out of New York on
Thursday April 6 which will arrive in Budapest on Friday, April 7.
If any of you is travelling to Pecs by the same flight and are
interested in sharing a taxi from Budapest to Pecs, please let me


T.M. Rajkumar

 (Preferred)   Decision Sciences and MIS
        Miami University
         Oxford, OH-45056
home page: http://www.muohio.edu/~rajkumtm/course/rajcourses.html
+ - Re: "Lower Slovakia" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


>briefly, the territory was referred to as "Lower Slovakia" almost
>constantly by the Slovaks who lived there.  Just as they referred
>to other part of their territory as "Upper Slovakia" "Mountain
>Slovakia" etc.  What Hungarians called the territory is their own
>busineess, but they shbould not presume that Slovaks called it the

At first I was puzzled by the terms "Upper Slovakia" and "Lower Slovakia" in
your text.  Then I realized that you are actually referring to what in
Hungarian is called "Felvidek" and "Alfold" respectively.  The precise
meaning of these terms are "Highlands" and "Lowlands", referring to two areas
of the Kingdom of Hungary before 1920.  Most of the Highlands now constitute
Slovakia.  The Lowlands are neither inhabited by nor ever belonged to

Obviously someone (perhaps gfrajkor?) decided to translate these words to
English adding "Slovakia" to the well-known terms. Now we have a truncated
Slovakia whose missing parts have been made into another country, namely
Hungary.  Or so gfrajkor would have us believe.

It is a sad situation indeed when  a nation feels it must expropriate
another's history and even symbols.  For those who may not have noticed, the
logo gfrajkor uses is what Slovakia uses for its national emblem, that was
simply lifted out of Hungary's coat of arms.