Gabor Fencsik writes:
>
>A famous memoir written by Bela Szasz describes the years he spent in
>the custody of the Hungarian secret police starting in the late 40s.


I have read Szasz' memoires both in English and Hungarian, and once when in
a discount bookshop I have run into numerous copies, I bought them all to
give to my children and friends as an example of things that went bump in
the night in Hungary. I thought the description given very plausible and
nothing jumped out as particularly self serving. I have had chats with folks
who underwent similar treatment and their description was also validating
Szasz' description

>In the 70's one of Nadas' friends rents a room from a retired policeman
>in the Buda Hills, and the two of them accidentally discover that this is
>the same villa.  They locate the room, and recognize it from the description
>given by Szasz.  Everything is there: the converted cells in the cellar
>now used to store coal, the wooden steps matching the description
>given by Szasz, and the hexagonal room with the windows all around, no
>longer covered by thick curtains, but otherwise looking exactly the way
>Szasz describes it.
>
>The description given by Szasz checks out in all particulars, even though
>Szasz never knew where exactly he was held since he was always blindfolded
>as he was carried among the various interrogation centers.  The fact that
>he gets all the small things right may not logically imply that he is right
>about everything else -- but you know in your guts that every word in the
>book is true.  It all happened exactly the way Szasz wrote it down.  Yes
>Virginia, there is such a thing as a historical document that is true
>to the facts.

It is nice that someone also found physical confirmation of the local of the
events, I was willing to take Szasz at face value from the first time I have
read his book. I was not aware before your posting of the Nadas confirmation.

>I think the literary style of Nadas was influenced by Thomas Mann a
>lot more than by Proust.  The sentences may be long but the meaning is
>always clear.

Now that you bring up Mann, there may also be stilistical similarities, but my
first impression is still Proustian. I maybe influenced by having read most of
Mann's work about 40 years ago.

>The Sascha Anderson essay you asked about is in the
>volume Esszek, published by Jelenkor in Pecs, in 1995.  I have no idea
>whether it has been translated into English.

Thanks, I will order it.

Regards,Jeliko

At 12:17 AM 8/22/97 EDT, you wrote:
>Dear Fellow-listmembers,
>
>

Thank you for the information regarding the list change.  I am sending this
to see which list I signed up for, because I do not want to be left out,
now that I've found you.

I am going through a name change, and my From:  is using my new name.  Do I
need to resub because of it?  My e-mail address is the same.

Thanks,

Julianna (aka Sandy Gostel Perkins)

Dear Colleagues,

My apologies for writing in Hungarian, but this letter is of interest to only
those, who do speak Hungarian and some of  them are not English speakers.

Kodaly irta, hogy a kulturat nem lehet orokolni, azert minden generacionak
maganak kell megkuzdenie! Ezert is gondolom, hogy a vajdasagi magyar kultura
megvedese egy kicsit a mi (nyugati magyar) dolgunk is:

Mikozben Magyarorszagon 1956 ota 5 millio kisbabat semmisitett meg az
abortusz, a tortenelem viharai a vajdasagi magyarsag letszamat 23%-al, (tobb
mint 100,000-el, negy Zenta osszlakossagaval) csokkentettek, s ma is tovabb
pusztitjak.

1997 szeptembereben a zentai, szabadkai, becskereki es ujvideki magyar
gimnaziumokban NEM a hatalom vagy a kulso beavatkozas, hanem a magyar tanarok
hianya miatt fogyott tovabb a magyar szo. Az ujvideki gimnazium magyar elso
osztalyaban HAT TANTARGYAT tanitottak a tanarhiany miatt, magyarul nem tudo
tanarok az elmult evben.

Ugy gondolom, hogy ebben a problemaban talan mi, nyugaton elo magyarok is
segiteni tudnank, ha az arra kepesek (frissen vegzett, de allast meg nem
vallalt vagy mar nyugdijas magyarok) elmennenek a Vajdasagba
hosszabb-rovidebb idore tanitani.

Ezert kerem azokat akik a szukseges informacio birtokaban vannak: ertesitsek
a Magyar Lobbi lista tagjait arrol, hogy mi a feltetele annak
(allampolgarsag, nyelvtudas, kepesites, stb.), hogy valaki Bacska es Banat
magyar iskolaiban tanithasson?

Liptak Bela

Dear Colleagues,

While the Slovak media in general and the  pro-government Slovenska Republika
daily
in particular is conducting a smear campaign against the US Ambassador to
Slovakia Mr. Ralph Johnson,  they are also praising US Congresman, John L.
Mica (Representative of Florida's 7th district), who has recently met with
Mr. Meciar and apperas to have given him his support.

As to what has been said at the meeting, that is not very clear, but Ms.
Pospisilova, Mr. Meciar's spokesperson did quote Hon. Mica as having said
that: "Meciar is the only politician who is able to bring Slovakia to
progress" and that "we have to be thankful to Meciar for political stability
he brought".

It also seems that Congressman Mica did not even mention Slovakia's
violations of the rights of the treaty guaranteed human rights of the
Hungarian minority, nor did he mention the environmental disaster, which the
Meciar government's policies have caused in the Szigetkoz.

In view of the above, I would like to ask (particularly the Republican
members of our list, who reside in the 7th District of Florida) to contant
Congressman Mica and inform him of the real role of Mr. Meciar and his
extremist party.

Attached is a letter from Hon. Mica to Mr. Kanala (whom I thank for informing
me of this matter). This attached letter gives the E-mail address of the
Comgressman.

Best regards: Bela Liptak

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Subject: FW: An ET in Bratislava
Date:    Thu, 21 Aug 1997 10:47:51 -0400
From:    "Mica, John" >
To:      "'" >


Dear Mr. Kanala:

I wanted to take this opportunity to thank you for contacting me to
express your concerns about my visit to the Slovak Republic.

On Monday, August 18, I met with representatives from all parties of the
Slovak Government, and also had a two hour meeting with very frank
discussion with Prime Minister Meciar.  I heard from everyone about all
the problems of the Slovak Government.

While the official government press made their own interpretations of my
meeting Mr. Meciar, permit me to tell you myself what I said.

I stated that, as Mr. Meciar is the current Prime Minister, there is no
one else who can speak at this point to reconfirm to the U.S. Congress,
to the world and to everyone watching that he and his government are
committed to certain principles.

I stated that Mr. Meciar must clearly say that he supports a
constitutional government, the democratic process, respect for human
rights, and the right of all citizens to express their opinion.  He must
follow these words with a plan of action.  The world is now waiting for
him to provide this leadership.

I also made it clear he must make these statements over and over again
and follow it with action.  These same sentiments must also be stated
and repeated by his cabinet, the Parliament and the opposition.

Let me assure you that at no point have I endorsed Mr. Meciar's
government, the HZDS or any other party or group.  The U.S. Ambassador
to Slovakia, Ralph Johnson, was with me at every moment and can confirm
what I said.

In closing, let me also assure you that I will continue working in the
United States Congress to support the Slovak people and ensure that they
be given a chance to join the international community of democratic
nations.

Thank you again for your comments.

John L. Mica
Member of Congress
United States

Dear Fellow-listmembers,

Back at the end of May, I posted a letter to you all about consequences
for the Hungary list of changes being made at the GWU computer center.
Those changes take final effect from today (22 August) as the old IBM
academic mainframe is going to that great computer world in the sky where
eventually all old machines end up...

This should not make much difference to regulars on this list, EXCEPT
for those of you who read bit.listserv.hungary.  The exact relationship
between the two  and bit.listserv.hungary) may seem
arcane and confusing to many--as the recent letters about sex spams
suggests, this is a problem in bit.listerv.hungary, which is a newsgroup
like any other newsgroup, but not a problem in ,
which is a listserv list to which you cannot post if you are not a
recognized subscriber (hence the troubles some readers have from time
to time with postings, and receiving messages that they are not authorized
to post to the list).  As things are described to me, the site from which
 was gatewayed (ugh, "verbing" a noun!) to bit.listserv.hungary
will no longer do that, after the changes.  Thus, bit.listserv.hungary will
become completely separate if it continues to exist, unless anyone can
suggest another way of finding a gateway, or why we should continue to
gateway traffic.  Regular subscribers should not notice any difference,
and as long as they write to the list using "reply" functions that take
the address from the message to which they are replying, no one should
notice anything.

If you are sending a new message from scratch, as it were, then you should
use the  address.  Signoff and subscribe requests
should also be sent to the address  and not
to  anymore.

Progress marches relentlessly on!

What follows was the original announcement from late May:

Due to changes in the GWU computer center, at some point during the week
of June 2, the Hungary list will be moved from GWUVM.GWU.EDU to a new
machine, hermes.circ.gwu.edu.  This means that instead of sending list
commands (signoff, set nomail, etc.) to  you should
send them to .  Instead of sending your posts
to , you should send them to .

Otherwise, I am assured that you should not notice any changes at all.  We
hope to keep the whole shift (which involves the march of destiny overtaking
our old IBM mainframe) totally "transparent" as I believe the saying goes.
Until the old mainframe physically disappears, incorrectly addressed mail
will be forwarded automatically, but I hope we can all get accustomed to
the new setup quickly.

Sincerely,

Hugh Agnew
listowner, Hungary

Dear Congressman Mica:

In view of your interest in Slovakia, I am forwarding to you an e-mail I
recently sent to Sec.Albright.  It speaks for itself. Should you wish me to
send you the paragraphs (from the Slovak Constitution and the Slovakia-
Hungary treaty) let me know and I will be glad to oblige. Andy Vadasz
> =================================================================
Dear Sec.Albright:  The Slovak government's antidemocratic practices are not
news to your office. Particularly bothersome to the Hungarian minority  is
the series of irritating rules and even laws that don't help the country as
a whole, their purpose being to "play" to certain nationalist segments.
Foremost perhaps is the "language law", which forces the use of the Slovak
language in most official,and public communications. A recent outgrowth was
an order to school principals not to issue bilingual report cards (only
Slovak) even in schools where much of the instruction is in Hungarian.
Bilingual report cards in these institutions has been customary since the
establishment of Czechoslovakia. Both the edict and its progenitor, the
"language law" clearly conflict with both the 1992 Slovak constitution (see
esp.Art.26, 34 ) and Articles 14, 15 of the  1995 Slovakia-Hungary bilateral
treaty. By contradicting its own Constitution and a ratified treaty, the
Slovak government is casting a shadow on its own credibility. Besides the
obvious political fallout, such practices tend to discourage foreign
investment and depress a country's credit rating. All these in addition to
the causes making them ineligible for NATO or EU membership. 

A.J. Vadasz
5743 Pignut Mtn. Dr.
Warrenton VA 20187
USA T:540 349 1408

Dear Congressman Mica:

In view of your interest in Slovakia, I am forwarding to you an e-mail I
recently sent to Sec.Albright.  It speaks for itself. Should you wish me to
send you the paragraphs (from the Slovak Constitution and the Slovakia-
Hungary treaty) let me know and I will be glad to oblige. Andy Vadasz
> =================================================================
Dear Sec.Albright:  The Slovak government's antidemocratic practices are not
news to your office. Particularly bothersome to the Hungarian minority  is
the series of irritating rules and even laws that don't help the country as
a whole, their purpose being to "play" to certain nationalist segments.
Foremost perhaps is the "language law", which forces the use of the Slovak
language in most official,and public communications. A recent outgrowth was
an order to school principals not to issue bilingual report cards (only
Slovak) even in schools where much of the instruction is in Hungarian.
Bilingual report cards in these institutions has been customary since the
establishment of Czechoslovakia. Both the edict and its progenitor, the
"language law" clearly conflict with both the 1992 Slovak constitution (see
esp.Art.26, 34 ) and Articles 14, 15 of the  1995 Slovakia-Hungary bilateral
treaty. By contradicting its own Constitution and a ratified treaty, the
Slovak government is casting a shadow on its own credibility. Besides the
obvious political fallout, such practices tend to discourage foreign
investment and depress a country's credit rating. All these in addition to
the causes making them ineligible for NATO or EU membership.

A.J. Vadasz
5743 Pignut Mtn. Dr.
Warrenton VA 20187
USA T:540 349 1408

Jeliko on the Hungarian secret police files:

> It also has to be kept in mind that these type of documents were most
> likely slanted originally to achieve the desired purpose and taking them
> always at face value would result in a very distorted history. But that
> type of interpretation would not be a first time event either.

There is no question the documents are slanted.  Sometimes they make
mountains out of molehills, or minimize the significance of events,
or make it up as they go in order to advance the career of some
ambitious provincial police chief.  A small group of dreamy high
school students reading poetry to each other is turned into a
conspiracy to overthrow the the workers' state.  Huge task forces are
formed to track down people who scribble protest messages on university
bulletin boards. It goes without saying that none of these documents can
be taken at face value.  The job of a historian is to sort through all
this malarkey, compare sources, resolve contradictions, discover hidden
agendas, and figure out what really happened.  Producing reliable
information out of unreliable sources is what professional historians
do for a living.  That's why they are paid the big bucks, right?

Historians are not the only ones who have to do this.  When you or I read
the papers, listen to a sales pitch, read a professional article or, God
help us, read the stuff circulating on the Net, we have to pick and choose
what to believe, based on our hunches, ordinary common sense, logic, and
the source's track record.

Nadas provides a great illustration of the mechanism at work here.  There
is a famous essay of his, originally published in samizdat in 1977,
and later published "for real" in 1990 in a volume called Naplo.  The
essay, complete with mock-documentary photos, is about his discovery of
one of the secret police safe houses where many of the victims of the
Rajk trials were interrogated, tortured, and in some cases executed.

A famous memoir written by Bela Szasz describes the years he spent in
the custody of the Hungarian secret police starting in the late 40s.
He was originally slated to be a co-defendant in one of the show trials.
That idea was dropped when it turned out they were unable to break him
after months of torture.  He describes the day he was arrested and taken
blindfolded to a villa high up in the Buda mountains.  When the blindfold
was taken off, he was instantly slapped on the face by an enormous
policeman.  Almost without thinking, Szasz slapped the policeman back,
whereupon he was jumped by five or six policemen and was beaten to a bloody
pulp.  The beatings and torture continued for months, but Szasz remained
defiant.  The beatings happened in a room of the villa, a room with a
peculiar hexagonal shape that Szasz describes in great detail.  This is the
room where he was interrogated by Gabor Peter and his Russian advisors,
and the room where he met face-to-face with Rajk who was by then
a completely broken man.

As always, you start to wonder if all of this happened exactly as
Szasz describes it.  We know that memoirs are notoriously self-serving
and unreliable.  Many honest people have memory lapses, or are in denial
about things they have said and done but wish they hadn't.  Szasz is our
only witness for what happened.  The book is beautifully written, and
has an obvious integrity and a certain internal consistency to it -- but
for all that, the possibility exists that Szasz' memory is playing tricks
on him.  How can we be sure?

In the 70's one of Nadas' friends rents a room from a retired policeman
in the Buda Hills, and the two of them accidentally discover that this is
the same villa.  They locate the room, and recognize it from the description
given by Szasz.  Everything is there: the converted cells in the cellar
now used to store coal, the wooden steps matching the description
given by Szasz, and the hexagonal room with the windows all around, no
longer covered by thick curtains, but otherwise looking exactly the way
Szasz describes it.

The description given by Szasz checks out in all particulars, even though
Szasz never knew where exactly he was held since he was always blindfolded
as he was carried among the various interrogation centers.  The fact that
he gets all the small things right may not logically imply that he is right
about everything else -- but you know in your guts that every word in the
book is true.  It all happened exactly the way Szasz wrote it down.  Yes
Virginia, there is such a thing as a historical document that is true
to the facts.

I think the literary style of Nadas was influenced by Thomas Mann a
lot more than by Proust.  The sentences may be long but the meaning is
always clear.  The Sascha Anderson essay you asked about is in the
volume Esszek, published by Jelenkor in Pecs, in 1995.  I have no idea
whether it has been translated into English.

-----
Gabor Fencsik