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In article >,  (John
P. Pagano) writes:

>Hi, I'm the guy who began this thread.  Someone later corrected me on the
>point of Soze's ethnicity -- I had originally asserted that he was
>Hungarian.  The respondent said that Soze was part German and part
>Turkish.  I specifically remember the "part-German" part from the movie,
>but I was confused on the latter half.  Now, since you're reasserting
>that he was part-Hungarian, I am wondering again.  Can you tell me
>briefly what part of or line in the movie you think might answer this
>question with certainty?

Hi, John:
Whoever "corrected you" did you a sharp disservice. The script
consistently refers to Soze as being Hungarian throughout. Reviews of the
movie will also bear this out. I have picked up enough Hungarian that I
was able to recognize it being spoken throughout the movie. You will hear
Soze pronounced "Scher-zey" with an umlauted "O" (I've seen it written in
this newsgroup as O: or O". This is the way the name would be pronounced
in Hungarian.

There is a town in Turkey called Kayseri, which is a Turkicization of the
old Roman Latin name, Caesaerea. I cannot find a straight-out citation for
"soze" as "word" in Turkish. I have found "kelime" as the most likely word
for "word" in current colloquial Turkish usage."So:z" (pronounced "serz"
to most American English speakers) means "promise" (Yusuf Mardin), while
"so:z almak" means "to take the floor and speak" (Mardin again). Lewis
Thomas's older Turkish grammar lists "so:z" as "word, promise".  Perhaps
the screenwriter was trying to incorporate a delicious little
double-entendre on "Verbal", but why one so obscure? That totally defeats
the actual fun conceit of Verbal's misleading story -- little details that
ought to rub the average American viewer wrong, if he or she will just
stop to think about them. No one is going to pick up on "Soze" in the
context you're suggesting until the film opens in Istanbul or Ankara.

Short of seeing "The Usual Suspects" again (I didn't quite manage to
memorize the script the one time I saw it), you're going to have to take
my word that Soze is Hungarian. Great movie, though. Oh, and the Gallo
War? A major Mafia war in New York City in the early to mid-1960s. Check
out Jimmy Breslin's comic novel, "The Gang That Couldn't Shoot Straight"
if you want to find out more about it.

And while we're on this thread, I'd like some of our Hungarian-speaking
readers to offer up some ideas for Hungarian films that might be available
on videotape in the U.S. I've always heard that Magyar cinema is one of
the best in Europe. It must have been because so many Hungarians came to
Hollywood in the early part of the century. I'd like to see some of the
work being done in Hungary (subtitled, of course).
Sam Stowe

Haliho,

Wow!!! Someone seems to be mad at the Magar discovery, folks.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
: In addition to their recent three-week field study of the Magar people,
: the group also made contacts with specialists in the culture, language
: and anthropology of Magars.
<snip>
: They traveled to an area called the Rolpa district of Nepal, which is
: essentially sealed off from civilization by rugged terrain.
: The Magar people are
: isolated from the rest of Nepal by geographical, cultural and political
: differences.
wow! sounds like Shangrila from "Lost Horizon"

<snip agglutinative linguistic stuff>

: And in a region where all the surrounding cultures eat rice,
: the Magars grow corn, as did the Hungarians.
      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
a stopper! me thinks "maze" (i.e. corn) commeth from New World post 1500AD

<snip>

: He suggested researchers could perform DNA testing in the future to
: establish if there is any genetic connection,
save time! are Magars DNA related to Koreans?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Hostile to the story? Or the reporting, my friend??

If you'd like to berate the reporter here's the Budapest Sun's e-mail address:
100275.456 @ compuserve.com

Also:
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

quick ling things: 1. Check out color categories (is there equiv to voros?)
                   2. Are there loan words from adjacent cultures?
                   3. Do Magars write? If not check out oral histories.
quick soc  things: 1. What is their kinship structure? (incl terms)
                   2. Do they marry out?
                   3. What is their exchange practices? (how did they get
                      corn? Do they produce & swap? With whom?)
quick anth things: 1. Have previous studies been done on them (HARF)?
                   2. Seasonal Nomads and Sedintary Farming are aspects
                      that need further explanans (like Slash/Burn and
                      Village Builders would)... are these coexistent?

reminds me of So Japan, So American, No Europe "lost tribe" stories
of Magyar links of the past. (Keep in mind "Hungarian" was NEVER a tribe)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Me thinks, grasshopper, that many, if not all, on this list knows that
"Hungarian" is the label that was stuck on us by the west because of similarity
to the Huns in the way we ransacked Europe. You know, the excellent horsemen
and archer deal, plus our military tactics of fake retreating and corraling the
enemy and pelting them with arrows were all, too, similar. Plus, as Peter Hidas
mentioned, we were mingling with the Onogours in the Etelkoz awhile. With all
of this in the minds of Europeans, at the time, I'm sure they said, "Oh no!!
Not again!!!". Actually, in prayer books, around the time of the Conquests,
there were passages stating, " Oh God!! Please save us from the arrows of the
Hungarians!!" (That I'm sure many know, already.) I think we (magyars) were
more ruthless than our horned helmet friends up north and certainly covered
more ground (in Europe) than they ever did.

One things for sure, though( I know that I'll get flak for this!!). We
Hungarians can consider ourselves just that: Hungarians and not Magyars. No one
can claim that they are truly "Magyar", as many extremists in Hungary claim
they are. Ever since the first Tatar invasion and even the fall of the Arpad
dynasty there hasn't been any pure Magyars. So, the Hungarian label given to us
by the Europeans is the more acurate description, since those Europeans mixed
up Onogours, Huns, and the like together to get the "Hungarian" label we've
been branded with ever since; and boy are we a mixed up bunch of folk. The only
unifing thing about us is the language used. I'm proud to be Hungarian,
nonetheless, even though I'm half Hungarian.

I've deviated, but I'd like to know why this person slagged this discovery??
It's an important discovery, whether or not these people are even closely
related. I've always wondered about an Alma Ata connection myself. I think it's
pretty neat that we may have a connection with these people. Plus, you got to
remember that this is the first time anybody made this expidition, so we must
wait and see what's going on. Just by hearing about how some customs are
similar and the turul and gurul connection makes me my mind race. If they do
write, then what kind of written language is it?? Is it a runic language?? If
not, then did we acquire runes from our Finn cousins?? The questions go on and
on?? It's fascinating!! It makes me want to go there myself and connect. Just
like I'd want to connect with the Csango magyar.

So, you can slag the reporting done, but don't slag the expidition ,since all
the information about it isn't out yet.

Udv.,
Czifra Jancsi
john_czifra @ shi.com

Dear Peter Hidas,

You answered me today thus:

>The Jewish population of Bodrogkoz was double that of the national
>average.Who
> was considered Magyar in 1910? What did the census takers ask? In the
> atmosphere
>of the 1910s you can be sure that you declared yourself Magyar if you could
>convince the census takers. It was an honour to be a Magyar, but to be a
>Slovak
>or Jew was not. Hungarian nationalism was not racist and assimilation was
the
>goal of many.
>A similar situation exist in Canada. To get the true picture, the census
>takers
>in 1991 asked not just nationality but the language spoken in the home. It
> turned
>out that 2/3 of those who declared themselves Hungarian used English only at
>home.In short, I do not consider the Hungarian census very reliable when it
>comes to the nationality of those counted.

I am sorry I don't buy your argument. The census does confirm that in that
part of the country, the number of Jews (by religion) was twice as much as
the national average. The national average was %5.0 while the percentage in
Zemple'n County as a whole, was %10.4 and in Bodrogko:zi ja'ra's it was even
higher: %12.5. BUT, in this particular ja'ra's they were Hungarian speaking.
               ***********************
Zemple'n County had twelve ja'ra'sok (pl. of ja'ra's) out of which six had
large Yiddish-speaking population: Homonnai ja'ra's, Mezo"laborci ja'ra's,
Nagymiha'lyi ja'ra's, Szinnai ja'ra's, Sztropko'i ja'ra's,  Varanno'i
ja'ra's. The other six also had large Jewish populations but they were
Hungarian speaking! While the largest town in the county, Sa'toraljau'jhely,
with a population of 19,780, had 5,730 but they were all Hungarian-speaking
people whose religion happened to be Jewish.

Moreover, after rereading your posting, I am afraid that you are mixing up
ethnicity, religion, and language. The Hungarian census-takers were not at
all interested in ethnicity. They were interested in two things: which
language you spoke best and what your religion was. And, although I don't
know where you got your figures for Bodrogko:z, but the 1910 census's figures
fully support your statement. Moreover, I find it hard to imagine that Jews
would deny their religion and simply put themselves down as Hungarian
Reformed or Roman Catholic, unless, of course, they were Catholic and
Protestant because they had converted earlier.

As for the language question. A cursory look at the statistics lead me to
believe that Yiddish-speaking Jews were found mostly in those ja'ra'sok,
where the overwhelming portion of the population was Slovak speaking.
Ga'lsze'csi ja'ra's, Homonnai ja'ra's, Nagymiha'lyi ja'ra's, Varanno'i
ja'ra's, for example.

I still maintain that given the parameters within which the 1910 census was
created (i.e., the which language do you speak best?) it was not grossly
inaccurate. If we just remain with the Jewish population, as an example.
Sure, if you spoke Hungarian and Yiddish with equal facility, you would put
yourself down as Hungarian speaking. Still, in Ma'ramaros County out of the
65,694 Jews 59,552 put down Yiddish as their primary language; that is a very
small portion of the whole.

Eva Balogh

Attn:

I just returned from Hungary as a Peace Corps Volunteer and am now
living in Boston, Ma.  I am extremely fluent in Hungarian...yes, I
took the fluency test, etc., and would very much like to find work that
either has to do with Hungary and/or utilizes my language skills.
Does anyone know of anything in the Boston area?...I know the
consulate is here.   But I'd be interested in hearing any of the
possibilities that people think are out there!! Thank you very much.

Viszontlatasra!

Tiffany Winne

Eva Balogh wrote:
Moreover, after rereading your posting, I am afraid that you are mixing up
ethnicity, religion, and language. The Hungarian census-takers were not at
all interested in ethnicity. They were interested in two things: which
language you spoke best and what your religion was.

Do you know what questions were asked? I only have the questionnaire for
the 1869 census. Did they not ask in 1910 the nationality of the people
(nemzetiseg)? Did they ask waht language they spoke best or they asked
(as it is done by most census takers in the world) for mother tongue?
My thesis is that the nationality question led to unreliable answers.

P.I.H.

Gabor Fencsik > wrote...

> .....Peter Bornemissza, a fiery 16th century preacher, who must have
> anticipated the antics of the Siliconvalley Gang when he said, in the
> pungent no-nonsense language of the era: "Ha szarral harcolsz, ha
> megbirod is, ha megbir is, szaros leszesz."  Words to live by.

Sorry to be a pest Gabor, could you provide a rough translation for us Non
Hungarian speakers?

    GarryC.


############################################################################
# Better a dry crust                    # Internet:        #
# with peace and quiet,                 # Garry Collins, Electronics Dev't,#
# than a house full of feasting,        # PEC (New Zealand) Ltd     Marton #
# with strife.           Proverbs 17:1  # New Zealand   Tel +64 6 327 8189 #
############################################################################

Sorry, after sending my piece on Zemplen County I realized that my last
sentence doesn't make sense:

I wrote:

>in Ma'ramaros County out of the
>65,694 Jews 59,552 put down Yiddish as their primary language; that is a
very
>small portion of the whole.

Instead it should read:

in Ma'ramaros County out of the 65,694 Jews 59,552 put down Yiddish as their
primary language; that is an overwhelming majority.

Eva Balogh

Eva S. Balogh ) wrote:
: Dear Marianne,

: I don't have a detailed 1880 map of Greater Hungary, but I have a 1910
: Hungarian census. The problem here is that the place names are given in
: Hungarian and therefore I had to find a place which resembled to Maly Gyres
: in Hungarian. Maly means "Kis," that is, "Small," in Hungarian.

: I did find a place name very similar to Maly Gyres--Kisge'res, in
: Zemple'n/Zemplin (Slovaks! correct spelling?) County. The only problem with
: it that in 1910 it was inhabited by Hungarians, not Slovaks.

Eva,
  I spent three days in Perbenjik in Slovakia in 93 visiting a cousin.
Her husbands family owns a wine cellar in Kis Geres. Everyone there spoke
Hungarian as we were only one kilometer from the border.
 Kis Geres was very interesting. It had old stone quarries that the
locals long ago had turned into individual family wine cellars. We drove
there from Perbenjik in about ten minutes. The hillside was dotted with
large wooden doors into the hillside. My cousin had a large iron key that
looked like the ones they use for jails in the movies and opened the door
and led us down a set of stairs about 50 or so feet to a level tunnel
section after she had checked it first with a candle to make sure the air
was alright. At the end of the tunnel were four large wooden doors. I was
told this was a shared cellar that had been in the family for a few
hundred years. She opened one door and inside was a room about ten feet
by fifteen with maybe six or seven barrels. The ceiling was covered with
a blue green mold and it had a cold gloomy feel. Any way we drew off
about four liters of cold wine, we also sampled a few glasses of it, and
went home to appreciated their wine.
  The village seemed to be Hungarian, the language, but getting there the
language was Slovak. Some of my ancesters came from Kis Geres and the
were all Hungarian.
  I thought I might share my experience in Kis Geres with the person
asking about it.
                                     Bill Teglas

(I apologize if this appears twice in your mail-box, but I did not
receive my copy of the previous posting, therefore I am sending it again.)

In response to my "Appeal" the other day a few people put the above
question to me. Here is my public answer, in case some other people who
read the appeal may also wonder about this question.

There is a large and growing Hungarian-Canadian (H-C) population. According
to the 1986 census, there were 190 thousand H-Cs, this population grew to
214 thousand according to the 1991 census. The table below shows the census
data in detail. As can be seen there are different ways count the
Hungarians from the census data.

                        Hungarians in Canada Based on
         |       ethnic origin       |      mother tongue        |
         | single   multip.   total  | single   multip.   total  |
=========|===========================|===========================|
Ontario  |   53055    48075   101130 |   41435     4890    46325 |
B.C.     |   14345    18265    32610 |    9950     1140    11090 |
Alberta  |   12105    19275    31380 |    7285      955     8240 |
Quebec   |    8990     5820    14810 |    8475     1115     9590 |
Sask.    |    7920    14730    22650 |    3115      520     3635 |
Manitoba |    3210     4860     8070 |    1975      260     2235 |
Other    |    1100     1950     3050 |     670       80      750 |
=========|===========================|===========================|
Canada   |  100725   112975   213700 |   72905     8960    81865 |

But, if you look at the active membership of H-C organizations, Churches,
clubs, etc. the number of active members are falling drastically. This is
because H-C are not living in close-nit communities (ethnic ghettos?),
therefore it is not possible to keep in contact the traditional ways, with
church picnics, balls, etc. Therefore, if we want to maintain this
community there is a need for communication and contact between the members
of the community. In my view the main role of the MVSz Canadian National
Council is to provide this contact. How this will be accomplished is not
clear yet. It could be through a reinvented "Magyar Hirek" newspaper, or a
Canadian MVSZ news-bulletin, or a regular MVSz column in existing Canadian
newspapers, or with a WEB site on the Internet.

Barna Bozoki