Despite Russian military threats the Polish communists elect Gomulka first
secretary of their United Polish Workers' Party. The Soviet leaders leave
Warsaw. Gomulka delivers a major address declaring Poland a completetly
independent socialist country. He also sides with the the rebellious
workers of Poznan. His speech is published in the October 23 morning
edition of the SZABAD NEP, the official organ of the Hungarian communists.
There are anti-Soviet demonstrations in various Polish towns. The Presidium
of the Polish labour unions declares the Polish labour unions independent
of the communist leadership.

The PRAVDA accuses the Poles of revisionism, anti-marxist behaviour.

Gheorgiu-Dej arrives at Belgrade.

The Hungarian Academy of Sciences re-instate Imre Nagy as regular member of
the Academy.

Two innocent victims of the Rakosi era, colonels Dezso Nemeth and Sandor
Lorincz are reburried with full military honours.

Discussion at the Petofi Circle. Topic: The problems of the industrial and
commercial artists. A young artist, Noemi Ferenczy, severely criticizes the
leadership of artists' association.

At Szeged the Attila Jozsef Circle demands the formation of a new
government, a new party leadership, and the withdrawal of the Red Army from
Hungary. At the Budapest Law Faculty students form the Hajnoczy Circle. At
the Arts Faculty (Bolcseszkar) the March 15 Circle is established while  at
the Economics Faculty the Szechenyi Circle is founded. The common debating
club of all university students is the Vasvari Circle.

At the Katona Jozsef Theatre Laszlo Nemeth's GALILEI premiers.

At 09:10 PM 10/14/96 GMT, you wrote:

>In article >,
 says...
>>
>>"Autumn Leaves: An Hungarian Love Story" will be aired next Sunday,
>October
>>20, on the CBC radio network across Canada.  It will be a part of
>"Sunday
>>Morning" which is broadcast every Sunday from 9am to 12noon.
>>
>>"Autumn Leaves" is the story of Andras and Zsuzsi.  They met in Budapest
>in
>>1952 and fell in love with each other.  In 1956, when they were only 18
>>years old, they fled Hungary.  Andras ended up in England and Zsuzsi in
>>Canada.  They both married and raised a family but never forgot about
>each
>>other.  Then, many years later......
>>
>>By the way, from the brief excerpt I heard this morning, it is a true
>story.
>>
>>Joe Szalai
>
>Joe, maybe you could tell us the continuation of the story, after you
>have listened to it.  I will be baby-sitting next weekend, so I won't be
>able to listen to stories on the radio.  Thanks in advance.  Regards,
>Agnes

Too bad you missed the broadcast, Agnes.  Autumn Leaves was a beautiful,
moving story of enduring love.  Andras and Zsuzsi didn't flee Hungary
together in 1956 but met in Austria just as Andras was leaving for England.
They both met other partners and married.  In 1960 Andras went to Portland,
Maine because Zsuzsi was living there.  He didn't knock on the door of her
house but remained outside for a while and then moved on.  He returned to
England.  Every once in a while they kept in touch but most of the
information was about family members dying, etc.  Zsuzsi's husband got ill
and died in 1991.  Andras' marriage was falling apart and eventually ended.
In 1994, in Monaco, Andras and Zsuzsi were married.  "Aumumn Leaves" was
composed by Joseph Kozma and it was Andras and Zsuzsi's song when they were
falling in love in Hungary.

Agnes, if you want a transcript of the broadcast you should contact the CBC
in Toronto.  For a small fee they usually make transcripts available to the
public.

Joe Szalai

What about the most pausible town: Sa'toraljau'jhely?           R

In article >, 
says...
>
>Someone on this list raised the possibility that the Hungarian propensity
>to commit suicide might in some way be connected to low self-esteem and a
>feeling of helplessness in the midst of adverse historical events.  Reading
>recent (and earlier) postings penned by Eva Balogh, I suddenly realized
>that in her person we may have the incarnation of the self-loathing and
>perceived inferiority that some attribute to the Hungarian psyche.  Eva
>rarely misses a chance to find fault with and denigrate the national
>character, historical figures, most anythig ever accomplished by Hungary
>or Hungarians.  Her attitude may actually harm her credibility by raising
>the question in the reader: "How can I take seriously anything written by
>a member of such a'stupid, backward, cowardly, racist' etc. (Eva's oft-used
>adjectives) tribe?"
>Is there a psychologist out there who could comment on this?

Ferenc, although some list members didn't like your posting, on reading
it carefully I consider it as valid as anything else posted here. It is
normal for people to overreact whenever they feel threatened by something
like a psychoanalytical inquiry, even if it's not directed at themselves,,,
but the fear is there and they often hide behind excuses of the necessity
for politeness and decorum (usually an euphemism for acquiescing in evil
doing, just like how the UN recently behaved while the Serbs freely raped,
tortured and murdered, not to mention 1956). Please do not allow people
to shut you up on a free speech forum when you are taking on someone who
consistently disparages just about everyone and everything under the sun
(apart from her sycophantic lapdogs, of course). I would have more sympathy
for your critics if they were as quick to condemn the arrogant stupidity of
your adversary.
BTW no psychologist (bound by a code of professional ethics) will make a
public diagnosis or comment on a living person, but one doesn't need to
be a professional psychologist to see that the problem is one of *manic
defence* syndrome. Check out books on psychopathology and psychoneuroses.

George

--
George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Commodore=64...ICPUG ** NW London CC

Jeliko:

>Case rested, I have nothing else to add to this specific discussion.

        Neither can I. I, along with almost all Hungarian and non-Hungarian
historians, claim that Eastern Europe lagged behind Western Europe ever
since the beginnings of the Middle Ages. The gap, depending on the century,
was greater or smaller depending, but there was always a gap to our day. The
gap also depended how far east one went. Hungary was more developed than
Galicia, Moldavia, Wallachia, Russia or Serbia but less developed than the
Austrian provinces, Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia. However, if you want to
prove otherwise it is never too late to begin a massive revision of East
European economic and cultural history.

        Eva Balogh

As I promised I show a sermon, given by the Rev. Joe Wright, pastor
of a Wichita church in Kansas (Bob Dole's home state!!). It was
given as an opening prayer for the work day of Congress members in
the Kansas state legislation at the state capitol.

The sermon has a strong social message, which makes the brains of
most liberals blow up.

Enjoy it!                                                Sz. Zoli

 -------------------- -------------------- --------------------

Heavenly Father,

we came before You today to ask your forgiveness and seek your
direction and guidance. We know your word says: 'Woe to those
who call evil good,' but that's exactly what we've done. We have
lost our spiritual equilibrium and inverted our values.

We confess that we have ridiculed the absolute truth of your word
and called it moral pluralism. We have worshipped other gods and
called it multiculturalism. We have endorsed perversion and called
it an alternative lifestyle.

We have exploited the poor and called it lottery. We have
neglegted the needy and called it self-preservation. We have
rewarded laziness and called it welfare.

We heve killed our unborn and called it a choice. We have shot
abortionists and called it justifiable.

We have neglected to discipline our children and called it
building esteem. We have abused power and called it political
savvy. We have coveted our neighbor' possessions and called it
ambition.  We have polluted the air with profanity and
pornography and called it freedom of expression.

At 2:39 PM 10/20/96, Zoltan Szekely wrote:
>As I promised I show a sermon, given by the Rev. Joe Wright, pastor
>of a Wichita church in Kansas (Bob Dole's home state!!). It was
>given as an opening prayer for the work day of Congress members in
>the Kansas state legislation at the state capitol.
>
>The sermon has a strong social message, which makes the brains of
>most liberals blow up.
>
>Enjoy it!                                                Sz. Zoli
>
> -------------------- -------------------- --------------------
>
>Heavenly Father,
>
>we came before You today to ask your forgiveness and seek your
>direction and guidance. We know your word says: 'Woe to those
>who call evil good,' but that's exactly what we've done. We have
>lost our spiritual equilibrium and inverted our values.
>
>We confess that we have ridiculed the absolute truth of your word
>and called it moral pluralism. We have worshipped other gods and
>called it multiculturalism. We have endorsed perversion and called
>it an alternative lifestyle.
>
>We have exploited the poor and called it lottery. We have
>neglegted the needy and called it self-preservation. We have
>rewarded laziness and called it welfare.
>
>We heve killed our unborn and called it a choice. We have shot
>abortionists and called it justifiable.
>
>We have neglected to discipline our children and called it
>building esteem. We have abused power and called it political
>savvy. We have coveted our neighbor' possessions and called it
>ambition.  We have polluted the air with profanity and
>pornography and called it freedom of expression.

Now if you make a few substitutions the whole passage would become familiar
to Hungarians.

Comrade Stalin,

we came before You today to ask your forgiveness and seek your
direction and guidance. We know your word says: 'Woe to those
who call evil good,' but that's exactly what we've done. We have
lost our spiritual equilibrium [Leninism] and inverted our values [to
Trotskyism].

We confess [self-criticism] that we have ridiculed the absolute truth of
your word
and called it moral pluralism [democracy]...

Comrade Rakosi

 I leave the rest to your fertile imagination...

God save us from the good pastor's imaginary America.

Peter I. Hidas

Once upon the time there was a man, his name was William Bullitt,
who hated President Wilson with a passion because Mr. Bullitt, who was a
young diplomat in 1917-1918, thought that the president was terribly stupid
when he didn't listen to Mr. Bullitt's brilliant ideas concerning the
Soviets. Almost twenty years went by and although President Wilson had been
lying in his grave for almost two decades, Mr. Bullitt didn't forget his
grudge against him. He managed to convince Dr. Freud to write a study on the
late president's psyche. And he did. It was a hatchet job. Most
unprofessional. Dr. Freud's reputation suffered greatly as a result.

        Eva Balogh

The last few weeks were somewhat trying. Finally, I came to the conclusion
that in one area, there is a gap between the west and Hungary and that is
history writing. While, many of you may not be interested in history per se.
I have found it in my later life very fascinating. Yes, there is and should
be some revisionism in history as we find more information on the basis of
which one must change old data which may have been based on incomplete or in
some cases incorrect information. Is it being overdone? Yes, in some cases
unbelievably so. When I read through the Black Athena, I did not know if I
should laugh or cry.

A tenet like Rakoczi's potential contribution to "acceleration of
development" ends up in a response that Hungary was always underdeveloped
(in everything) compared to anything to the west of it. Somehow it is not
like a case based debate in the western sense, and maybe it is an indication
that Hungarians are certainly less developed in capability of conducting a
debate and staying with the issue. Why would I place the tenet of the
"capability for accelerated development" if not for the purpose of putting
Hungary in a higher devloped stage? In many areas, Hungary, at similar
times, was behind in many areas of what is considered development in many
western areas. In some cases, similar events which restricted development in
Hungary, restricted western countries also. In several cases the
precipitiousness of the drop was critical in some western states also. They
managed better in being able to get out of the decreases in status, living
standard, by propitious "acceleration".

One reason, in my belief, is that they had strong central power, that was a
national central power. Many of the rulers of the west managed to control
many things that in Hungary were left to the Catholic church even before the
foreign control of Hungary. Later, the Habsburg's prime interest, and mostly
sole interest, was their staying in power at the expense of any advancement
of their realm. To them, from the mid XVII century to the end of the XIX
century the threat came from Hungary (with the brief interruption of the
Napoleonic wars). But those days are not my primary interest. The above are
based on most of things I have read without digging into the detail of those
times.

My interest is mainly in the earlier days of the Carpathian basin and the
surrounding areas. And there, the absolutly known information is much more
meager. There are revisions to the history as more records are found and as
they are better compaired.
Nothing was (probably ever) written as an unbiased story. Everybody either
had their own special angle or carried on information written by someone
else who had a special angle. It is very difficult to unravel, even parts of
the mosaic, not talking about the whole picture. At the same time, many
folks merrily become dogmatic about their stance, long before all the
information, that is extant, is evaluated. Does this make me cautious about
later times history? The answer is yes. Just this year Kristo Gyula, a
better known living Hungarian historian of the early Hungarian period,
bemoaned the fact that the compairing the extant historical records with the
archeological records results in a great mismatch of the Hungarian
population records in the X - XI century time frame.

The archeological records indicate a much higher population. They are
finding villages which are not mentioned in any historical records. Under
normal (logical) circumstances, this type of discerepency would result in a
large error band when used for other information derivation. But that is not
the case. Some take one figure without mentioning the potential deviation
from it, while others do the same in the opposite side. The error itself, in
this case, could be as large as a factor of two or more. In some cases,
historians ignore small nuances that are in fact significant. A case in
point is the desigantion of people as "halasz" (fisherman). That is a not a
well developed profession, and one would not expect from the current
designation of halasz that he would be extensively involved in commerce.
However, there are extant documents from Hungary that define the
responsibility of the "halasz" for getting ships loaded with merchandize
from the lower Danube to points near the Pozsony area. Thus, in those days,
the designation and responsibility of halasz was much broader than in later
times. Is this solely a translation problem between Latin and Hungarian? I
hope not. But is it significant from a historical analysis standpoint?
Certainly. Is it significant that donations of towns and in some cases whole
counties, where commerce was extant, was made to the church which was much
more interested in real estate and fixed serfs than in commerce (which
through the ages became an almost dirty word in Hungarian) significantly
affected the development of the country? Yes. But it is very rarely realized
or analyzed in general Hungarian histories. The communist histories just
plain denigrated everything the church did, while many of the others showed
that the church was the savior of the country in everything they did.

Why do I go back to original records as much as possible? Because I do not
need a "designated thinker" for me, particularly when comparison of original
data with the conclusion of the designated thinker is not clear. What is the
responsibility of the historian in my opinion? To explain what his tenet is
based on and what conclusion can be drawn from the the available data,
including the contrary information also. Recently, I had a chance with a
friend of mine to go to a French farmhouse in a small village in the upper
Loire region to purchase some lettuce for dinner. That farm house could have
been anywhere in Hungary and except for a difference in language, you would
not realize the difference. In another village, they had a bucsu and in the
raffle we won a hog's head. Another friend, the family whose one member was
my wife's penpal lives in Wales, they are also farmers. That farmhouse also
could have been anywhere in Hungary. The major topic of conversation was
that the queen visited the area and a special loo was built for her, which
later was dismantled. Well a royal ass is a royal ass. (I recall similar
cases from the Rakosi times.)

In my opinion, history should never be treated in a closed mind, dogmatic
way. In many cases repetition does not make truth.

However, this got too long. I am also tired of trying to steer back to the
originally discussed arguments. Because I do not know when I will
participate again, I am also giving away the puzzler from one of the
previous postings. The character description, I have quoted from the Italian
author, was for Szapolyai Janos.

Regards to All, Jeliko.

>From the Romanian opposition daily Adevarul (The Truth):

A CDR (The opposition party - The Romanian Democratic Convention) party
delegation visiting the village Tutora in Iasi county was received by a
group of peasants armed with sticks, pitchforks and axes, according to
Mediafax news-agency. The peasants asked CDR members to leave  but were
surprised when the CDR members spoke Romanian. It turned out that the
peasants expected "a group of Hungarians who want to take away Transylvania
and they planned to give them the proper reception." This information was
provided to them by the local PDSR (government party - The Party of Romanian
Social Democracy) party leaders. When the peasants found out that the CDR
delegation is made out of Romanians, they calmed down and accompanied the
guests into the village.

GDF