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1 Subscription Info PLEASE! (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
2 "Truth" in Mathematics and History (mind)  69 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Subscription Info PLEASE! (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
4 Mountains are mountains (mind)  104 sor     (cikkei)
5 Propaganda machines (mind)  58 sor     (cikkei)
6 Tovabbitott keres..Effective Spamming on the NET FREE G (mind)  162 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Subscription Info PLEASE! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


Could someone PLEASE send me the address of the server so I could subscribe to
this list?

Christopher Lazzo
+ - "Truth" in Mathematics and History (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In the course of his argumentation concerning the history of Transylvania
(Erdely) and the reliability of the historian, Seton-Watson, Mihai Caragiu
raises the following example of "truth":

>Is the truth of the statement "2+2=4"
>dependent of the inner disposition of the
>person who ennounces it ?

A pruported professor of mathematics should have, it seems to me, a
somewhat more sophisticated view of the meaning of "truth" and the criteria
by which it may be ascertained.  At a minimum, he should be able to
distinguish between analytical truth , such as his example, and synthetic
truth.  The validity of an analytical sentence, while it doesn't depend on
the disposition of the person who ennounces it, *does* depend on the
definition of the terms and *on nothing else*.  In contrast, the validity a
synthetic truth is determined when  the claim of a sentence is compared to
*experience*.  This little difference, complicates matters, because
experience can never be anything but subjective.  The last clause of the
previous sentence is another example of analytic truth.

Mihai Caragiu goes on to ask:

>In other words :
>are we back to Orwell ?

We are not back to Orwell, we are past him.   In fact, Orwell should have
been past himself too:  Kant had pointed out this stuff two centuries
before him, and the Vienna Circle and others (e.g.Popper, Weber, Mannheim)
had worked it out in considerable detail and approaching the problem from
many different assumptions and providing different solutions.  The
epystemological problem is now a commonplace in educated circles, though
there is much disagreement about the seriousness of the frightening
implications.  Orwell's solution of denial, however, is not considered

As for the possibility of History as a science, many volumes were written
in the XIX c.  by Ranke and Dilthey and others, from which one can conclude
that, it is probably not possible to practice it as such, and we can say,
at best, the question  remains debateable and largely dependent by what one
means by 'science'.  Unless all the peoples of the world get past linear
thought, we will all surely destroy ourselves and perhaps, life on our

All of you remind me of naughty children in the school yard, when the
teacher catches them doing their naughty deeds.  Everybody has a story and
nothing is anybody's own fault.

The present issue is, whether Hungarians on the territory of the Roumanian
Republic, have the right to exist where they have for the last 1,100 +
years as Hungarians or not.  While a knowledge of historical particulars
may be revelant, other issues need to be considered first.   Here are a few
that occur to me immediately: What constitutes ethnicity, what is a
Hungarian, a Roumanian, a Gypsy, a Jew or a Saxon?  What is a 'right'
precisely and how do we decide?  Does historical location or  circumstance
modify the meaning of any of these terms?

I am grateful to Professor Caragiu for showing that Hungarians in the
nineteenth century acted like typical nineteenth century Europeans.   I
suspected as much, when I learned that Kossuth toured Dixie on the eve of
the American Civil War, giving speeches in favour of seccession.  The
trouble is that the Roumanian state seems to act like a nineteenth century
european state on the eve of the twenty-first century.  It is unfortunate
that the Hungarians are not much wiser.    One cannot demand Justice from
the environment.

Tibor Benke (Laborfalvi)
Vancouver, Canada
+ - Re: Subscription Info PLEASE! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


 Any chance that you work with a Renee Pearson in Chicago?

+ - Mountains are mountains (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tibor Benke > writes:
>>Is the truth of the statement "2+2=4"
>>dependent of the inner disposition of the
>>person who ennounces it ?
>A pruported professor of mathematics should have, it seems to me, a
>somewhat more sophisticated view of the meaning of "truth" and the crite
> <snip>

I am sorry that my connection with Orwell disturbed Professor Benke
in such a way that he rushed with a quick introduction in philosophy, just
for my sake. At least, my activity on bit.listserv.hungary was not
without any intellectual profit ; I am happy for receiving this valuable
information on Kant, Vienna Circle, Popper, or whoever wants to join :-)

If I remember well, I started this thread by posting a series of
facts described in a book of an historian, Seton-Watson.
By reading  any unbiased :-) biography of Seton-Watson,
one will see that his passion for _facts_ is indeed acknowledged.
The most natural question which pops up is : "Did the facts
related by Seton-Watson really happen ?" Of course, one might come up
with a lot of `reasons' for these, but, after all, the road towards
Hell is paved with the best intentions, isn't it, and the truble
is that the same type of approach could be followed by the adverse
party :-)

Please note that even if the facts related by Seton-Watson
_did_ happen (as I think it _is_ the case), I would
_by no means_ take these as an argument against the present-day
Hungarians and their wishes, most of which I consider legitimate,
or, equally, as an argument for the present-day Romanian
nationalists (best friends of hungarian nationalists, you know,
more than one might think)

I just wanted to suggest that the _only_  sane form of dialogue
is that accompanied by _facts_. Yet another personal view: in order to solve a
problem you have first to _sate it_. This are own narrow opinions,
which might coincide or not with that of the Circle at Vienna.

In some happy cases, the `problem' managed
to be stated, after a `difficult birth' :-)
Someone, for example, stated that the Romanian books never,
or almost never (?), refer to Janos Bolyai as one of
the founders of non-euclidean geometry, along with Lobacevski
and Gauss. Good! I mean, it is a statement which can be
verified pretty reasonable. If this is exact, he might get a point, supposing
I receive a _detailed statistics_ which reveals that there
is indeed a misconduct (by personal experience - being educated in
a pure romanian environment - I know that this is simply not true!).
I haven't received this yet, that person just `rushed back home
to search for the facts requested' :-) (although I believe it would be
much better to have them _before_ launching an accusation).
I just want to understand _for myself_, the nature of the
hungarian unease. So far, after almost two weeks of discussions,
the _only_ statement which I could reasonably verify coming from the
most radical critic of Seton-Watson, contained a mistake, which
might be unpardonable for an historian. In a few words I am sick
of unsubstantiated claims. Full stop.

I would like to tell a Zen anecdote, which might illustrate a little bit
my `extra-mathematical' concept of truth (in math that's simple one has
and semantics, joined by a nice theory, model theory) in which
the novice passes successively by three stages:

1. In the beggining the mountains were mountains and nothing more.
2. After some more advancement, the mountains ceased to be mountains.
3. Becoming a Zen master, he sees again the mountains and nothing more.

I mean, I hope sooner or later we will understand each other, and, avoiding
unnecessary divagations, we will see the world as it is.

>I am grateful to Professor Caragiu for showing that Hungarians in the
>nineteenth century acted like typical nineteenth century Europeans.

Equally true that sometimes, w.r.t. Romanians, the Hungarians, in the 20-th
century acted like, say... here you might better enter the century.
Ip, Traznea, say something. One should note that Romania at
that time was not in war with Hungary. Also, the _fact_ that
17 Orthodox and Uniate churches were rased to the ground, kids of
one year old killed without mercy, all these _cannot_ be weakened
by philosophical divagations related to `the Circle at Vienna'.
Facts are facts. This, however, does not weaken
my belief that the Hungarians _have_ the right to exist - as
Hungarians - in the countries in which they constitute minorities.
They can learn in school that they came from Sumer, or from the Moon, whatever.

>The trouble is that the Roumanian state seems to act like a nineteenth century
>european state on the eve of the twenty-first century.

Personally, I cannot agree or disagree
with what is being `seemed' by
somebody. Note that I might be myself at odds
with some aspects of the Romanian state.

>It is unfortunate
>that the Hungarians are not much wiser.

But they _are_ wiser, isn't it.
This scores in a wise way, anyway.

Mihai Caragiu
+ - Propaganda machines (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Pannon > writes:

>What Austro-Hungarian propoganda machine?  The problem was, that almost
>everybody else in the neighborhood had propoganda machines in the West,
>_except_ the Hungarians!  Seaton-Watson, Masarik had the field almost
>totally for themselves.

This might be yet another aspect of the Austro-Hungarian propaganda machine.
Why, by the way, any propaganda-based state almost always fears his
propagandistic machinery is not as powerful as it should be (this fear
is understandable, the instinct for freedom of the individuals might
be more powerful in some cases). "Officially" this might get translated
by : "All others have propaganda machines, except _us_". Then...way to go,
got it ? Let's read from Seton-Watson biography:

  In 1905 Seton-Watson arrived in Vienna with the
intention of writing a history of Austria since Maria
Theresa. The conflict between the Crown and a majority
of the Hungarian Chamber over the constitutional right
of the Crown not to permit the substitution of Magyar
for German as the language of command in the Hungarian
regiments of the joint regular Army was at its height
and rekindled Seton-Watson's Scottish liberal sympathies
for Hungary as `a nation rightly struggling to be free'.
He had already written occasionally to the "Spectator"
over the signature `Scotus Viator' and he resolved to
use this channel to correct what he thought the unfairness
to Hungary of British reports from Vienna. With characteristic
thoroughness he went to Hungary in the spring of 1906
to spend three months studying the situation before writing
upon it. His appetite for facts was keen and he felt sure
they would give him full proof that his charished convictions
were well founded. Within six weeks he returned to Vienna,
filled with wrath. The Magyars, he explained, had `lied' to
him. Exactly how they had dissillusioned him was not quite
clear. His apparent timidity, abundant good faith, and eager
simplicity may have tempted them to overload his mind with
assurances which would not bear investigation. The trouble
was that he did investigate them. He found it hard to believe
that Slovaks, Rumanes, and other non-Magyars were really
Magyars of slightly different kinds : nor could he reconcile
his faith in Hungarian parliamentary democracy with the
discovery that the non-Magyar half of the population held
fewer than 40 seats in a parliament of 415. In short, he
caught a glimpse of the reality which lay behind the imposing
frontage presented by Hungary to Western Europe - a shattering
experience for so earnest a seeker after truth.

Reference : "The National Dictionary of Biography"
OXFORD University Press, 1971, E.T. Williams,
Helen M. Palmer, editors.

["The Times", 28 July, 1951 ; G.H.Bolsover, in "Proceedings
of the British Academy", vol. xxxvii, 1951; private
information.] by WICKAM STEED
+ - Tovabbitott keres..Effective Spamming on the NET FREE G (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Tue, 8 Aug 1995 22:11:33 -0600
From: allen >
Subject: Effective Spamming on the NET FREE GUIDE


This is an attempt to make the internet more commercially profitable.

The following is a guide to "effective marketing" VIA the use of SPAMMING.
BTW ... THIS IS  A SPAM!  However, I have done lots of research on this
subject. The following information is a VERY worthwhile read!

I've been dumped off a number of other servers for spamming activity.  It's
no big deal, I just change service providers as needed. There are 1000's of
service providers out there, so the possibilities are endless!  However, at
the same time, I have made lot of $$ dollars e-mailing to 100,000's of
thousands of mail list subscribers.

I pulled ALL possible LISTS from the "tele.net-listserv-List of Views"( the
below Lists are all the listed ones currently available as of 7/20/95. New
lists are constantly being added.) I sent out "just one e-mail" with bcc to
all ALL lists. Don't send a separate e-mail to each mailing list, that
takes to much time! Just copy and paste the e-mail address for each and
THEN send. You want ALL lists to be spammed at one time. You want to be
able to COLLECT as many responses back from the subscribers before your
service provider shuts you down.

My e-mail message went out to over 1,466,296 subscribers.  It could have
been MUCH more than these figures, for I didn't stop to count how many
subscribers per list!  (The subscribers also tend to forward your message
to others if you request they do so in your spam.)

A suggested time to send out your huge spam is on a Sunday night at 2:00
am. The server is not very busy. Furthermore, the Syops are usually not
real awake on Monday Morning and are dealing with 100's of posting to their
mail list from the weekend. It really pays to make your Subj. Header
something that is "very generic". Many Syops just look at the Subj. header
and NOT the content before posting. When that happens ... You're in

Examples of a good header would be: FYI, Good Information, Reply to
message, Coffee anyone? You get the idea I am sure. Just be creative and
stay away from headers that sound commercial.

NEWS GROUPS can be used in a similar fashion. I simply PULL the e-mail
addresses off the News Group and then, blind carbon copy, (spam) everyone
with just one e-mail. You can also "post" your message to the News Groups.
This also works but lacks the personal appeal of a direct e-mail campaign
to a mailing list.

Anyway, be prepared for Flames and Mail Bombs to both you and your Service
Provider.  I have found that the so called "voices from the net" is much
overrated. Most people pay no attention if they have no interest. However,
your SERVICE PROVIDER WILL react due to even the smallest amount of mail
bombs it receives. WHY you ask? The Service Provider gets real UPSET due to
the fact that mail bombs can overload and shut down their Server. This cost
them money by temporarily depriving ALL their customers access. That tends
to make them a LITTLE TESTY!

I actually have two Service Providers. One Provider is used for "*personal
normal" activity. The second provider is the one that is always changing.
It is best to keep the two totally separate ...  *personal Vs business.

For General Announcements like this one, an "anonymous server" is great!
However, you can't count on getting all your important replies back.  Many
of them will get lost on the way back to you due to the security features!
( a good anonymous provider is  anon.penet.fi  Just send e-mail requesting
information to  )

AOL, Compuserve, Prodigy and Delphi, ETC., don't have that problem because
of their large size capacity and are much slower to respond to 'NEW BEES"
who don't "know any better" Generally speaking it takes about 3 warnings
about spamming from a Service Provider to finally shut you down. You can in
many cases, PLEAD ignorance ... Oh REALLY,  SOB ... SOB ... I am terribly
sorry! I am new and I didn't know I couldn't do that ... SOB ... please
don't shut me off ... sort of dribble. Be creative!  That usually will keep
your server off your back ONE WEEK TO TEN DAYS to collect your responses
from the spam.

Again, if your going to spam ... do it BIG!!!  Little or BIG spam, the end
result is the same. Your service provider will tire of receiving the mail
bombs and eventually give you the Old Heave Ho!

One last helpful hint ... you can make your spamming last much longer with
your service provider if you take the time to post a question to the Mail
List that fits their subject matter and then add a PS., ... BTW, Do you
wanta buy something ... information.  However, I found this very time
consuming to post individually to 1000's of lists and far EASIER to just
change service providers. Keep in mind that you ARE going to be eventually
dumped off anyway ... so what's the difference?

The Direct Marketing Association says that you should average 1 or 2 %
response from a U S POSTAL mailing program. I have found that average is
right on the money with e-mailing! Depending of course on the product you
are offering. However, even if your response is only a 1/2 of1%. from
1,466.296 e-mails, that still is 7,330 prospective customers for your

Gee whiz,  one more thing ... your Mail-LIST will say to you
 " The Internet GOD'S have spoken. You are FOREVER BANNED from ever using
our Mail-LIST again"! They will put a block on your net address preventing
you access.  HOWEVER, each time you change Service Providers ... guess
what?  You have a NEW E-Mail Address! The Mail-LIST computer site is kinda
stupid and doesn't recognize that you're the same person. This also works
if you change Mail programs to the "same Service Provider". Remember, just
a slight change in your mail program will do the trick!  Example, just
change from Eudora to News Reader And AWAY YOU GO AGAIN!   Spamming away to
your hearts content to Fame and $$ FORTUNE!

The Net is totally unregulated  and governed by something called
"Netiquette".  However, you can within reason, disregard Netiquette because
of the constantly changing self imposed rules and Hypocrisy of most of the
users. If you don't believe this, just monitor some news groups and you
will see. Keep in mind that the internet community will strongly support
explicit sexual immorality, while a small vocal minority will object and
violently oppose an innocent commercial message. ... GO FIGURE!!

Please let me know if you have any questions or comments regarding the
above. I am very interested in your feed back!

Find "tele.net-listserv-List of Views" Use your search engine to access
this list. The default "100's of Subscribers" will give you the best
results. However the following is provided for your immediate use. Updated
The following represents 1,466.296 of subscribers. ( Yes, I did say
MILLION!) Just copy and paste into your e-mail program and AWAY you GO!

Now here is the catch ... You can spend the next 2 weeks down loading each
address at 28.800 baud, or I can send the ENTIRE list to you for $50.00.
No kidding!  The process of down loading each "send to the Group address
took me 2 weeks or about 60 hours using a high speed modem.  The follow is
a sample for you to test.  If you want the rest of the list; send $50.00
for my time to:

Jeff Slaton
6808 Truchas Dr NE
Albq.,  NM  87109