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1 Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
3 Mr. Pellionisz and the truth (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
4 IMF, 56 (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
5 Insult to Injury (mind)  122 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
7 Why not socialism? (mind)  66 sor     (cikkei)
8 Hungarian/English Dictionary (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

For God's sake, how many Hungarians live in Transylvania?? Soon there'll
be like 25 million...

In article >, 
>Dear Colleauges,
>In less than two weeks, Clinton will meet with Iliescu in the White House.
>This is a great opportunity for the Hungarian Lobby to influence Mr.
>Clinton's positions during these discussions. I would like to ask you to send
>E-Mail messages to Bill Clinton. To assist you in that, I am attaching a few
>points you might consider to include in your letter:
>E-Mail Address: 
>Dear Mr. President,
>1.64 million Hungarian Americans are looking forward, with High expectations,
>to your meetings with president Iliescu of Romania. We hope that in your
>meetings you will find an opportunity to request the following from him:
>1) Restoration of Hungarian autonomy in Transylvania:
>We agree with your recommendation for Bosnia, which would guarantee autonomy
>for all the warring groups. Similarly to that approach, we feel that it is
>high time to restore this same autonomy to Europe's largest minority, the
>Hungarians of Transylvania, who's numbers exceed the TOTAL POPULATION OF
>BOSNIA. This autonomy was guaranteed by the Great Powers in 1920, again in
>1946, it survived even under Communist rule and in 1993 it has been again
>recommended by the European Parliament, in their resolution 1201.
>2) Rescinding the "Language Law" of 1995:
>This law destroys the 500 years old Hungarian school system and  subjects the
>2.5 million Hungarian minority to cultural genocide. By treating language and
>culture as a police matter, Romania is being converted from a multi-ethnic
>federation into an intolerant nation-state.
>3) Equal privatization for all:
>The properties of Hungarian individuals and churches should be returned.
>There should be no discrimination in favor of Romanians.
>4) Stop the "Culture Police":
>The Hungarian language TV, radio and press should be restored.
>5) Recall Ambassador Moses:
>Lastly, we feel, that Mr. Moses has compromised the high standards of
>American diplomacy. His comparing Bishop Laszlo Tokes, the hero of the 1989
>anti-Ceaucescu Revolution to a racist fanatic was inexcuseable.
>Respectfully yours,
>Name, address, title
+ - Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


: In less than two weeks, Clinton will meet with Iliescu in the White House.


let's get together on this one! pleeze!

+ - Mr. Pellionisz and the truth (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Only three comments.

(1) Peter Hidas asks from Mr. Pellionisz: "Concerning the views of Ms.
Balogh, I wish you could be more polite. You can challenge her views without
insulting her. Without insulting anybody. Can we  keep this discussion of the
Hungarian revolution of 1956 civil?" Answer: No, if Mr. Pellionisz is
involved. Actually I made a mistake by answering his tirades. The best thing
would have been to ignore him--thus not giving him an opportunity to answer.
Mr. Pellionisz, by switching to the English-language list, is bent on letting
the *whole* world know--instead of a relative small group of Hungarians--what
kind of man he is.

(2) Peter writes in connection with Gero's speech: "I read your quotes over
 at least twice but I still could not find any insult of the demonstrators of
that evening, that is no words can be find calling the people on the streets
`fascists.'" Indeed, but again, Mr. Pellionisz is not bothered by such
trivialities. He keeps going and going, and going!--to quote the popular ad
on TV. And in connection with Mr. Pellionisz's penchant for the truth:

(3) Here is the question of the remote village of Pecs. First, I really start
wondering whether Mr. Pellionisz ever lived in Hungary or, if he did, how he
managed to escape all those dreadful geography lessons we all had to endure
from grade 4 to grade 10. Pecs is at least 220 kms. from Budapest, at the
other end of the country. It is about forty kilometers from the border with
Croatia. It takes good three-four hours on train to get from Pecs to
Budapest. Thus, it would have been impossible to "commute" between the two
cities to attend a few lectures at the University of Budapest. Moreover, I
already told the whole world where I was on October 23, but to no avail. Mr.
Pellionisz just goes on and on and on!

Eva Balogh
+ - IMF, 56 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

For a few days I don't get a chance to read HUNGARY, and when I return what
do I see? Andra1s Pellionisz, long-time orator of HIX FORUM, is already the
biggest poster on HUNGARY: 376 lines in two postings, a conference CFP (264
lines), and all other postings providing a mere 241 lines.

It is interesting to see how Mr. Pellionisz, who often likes to cast himself
as a proud US citizen, upholder of staunch conservative values, is now in
the middle of a campaign to get Hungary weasel out of contractual
obligations, citing, of all people, Noam Chomsky.  Irrespective of whether
one fully endorses the policies of the IMF (I don't), the fact of the matter
is that the contract between lender and borrower is the archetypal civil
contract, the foundation on which capitalism is built.  Mr.  Pellionisz
could do himself a favor and study Sze1chenyi's "Hitel" to understand this
point (and incidentally to understand that an appreciation of such trappings
of capitalism is not incompatible with Hungarian patriotism). The way to
rebuild capitalism in Hungary is certainly not through reneging on contracts
with those who risk their money by investing there.  Unlike the mostly
government-held Polish, Albanian, etc. debt, the majority of Hungarian
government bonds is in the hands of small investors, mostly in Germany,
where Hungarian paper has a significant market. One couldn't find a better
way of alienating the European Community than ticking off a large number of
middle-class Germans.  It's well and good for Mr. Pellionisz to advocate
this, since he wouldn't have to suffer through the consequences, which, in
the case of an economy so open as that of Hungary, would be dire indeed.

It is also interesting to see how Mr. Pellionisz tries to exploit 1956, a
rare moment of national unity, to push his own agenda -- as a heroic 13
years old, he failed to join Corvin Ko2z and walk the walk (many of that age
did, in fact one of the criticisms persistently levelled against the
commander was that he accepted kids so young in the ranks of fighting men)
but hey, he can still talk the talk. 1956, his famed "antibolshevist
revolution" started with the demand "Nagy Imre1t a vezete1sbe!". As we all
know, "vezete1s" was the leadership of the communist party, and Imre Nagy
was a communist. Nobody actually claimed (certainly not E1va Balogh, whose
account Pellionisz dismisses in his trademark offensive style as "vide1ki",
with a trite apology for "falusi") that 1956 was a socialist revolution. Yet
it started with dissatisfaction with the existing communist leadership, and
didn't initially reach beyond demands of reforming socialism. As every
revolution, it became more radical as the days went by, and soon multy-party
democracy was demanded *and realized*. Yet so far nobody questioned the
legitimacy of the Nagy government, nobody except Mr.  Pellionisz, that is.
He is of course entitled to his opinion, but he can't have it both ways:
either he accepts the legitimacy of the Nagy government, resting IMHO on the
strongest popular mandate since the Batthya1ny government, or he can't claim
that his views are those of the majority of his countrymen, then or now.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Insult to Injury (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Peter (Hidas), I have no idea where were YOU on 23rd of Oct.'56.
You may not even have been born yet - most readers certainly weren't.
In that case, one would easily understande why you apparently don't
recognize the reasons Mr. Gero's speech was so terribly insulting.

The fundamental problem was not that Gero called the demonstrators
"fascists". He did NOT. (For the record, it was never MY assertion that
he did. YOU referred to some who apparently did not listen for "details"
when all they noticed was "fascists" flying left & right from Gero's
mouth ["fasisztak" repkedtek a levegoben])

Mr. Gero's irresponsible (and of course false) harping on "Horthy-fascism"
(that never existed) certainly did not help (and actually there was
MORE OF IT in the speech than the two I bothered to verbatim quote!).
But, I repeat, the main problem was not the "F-word" itself.

Had you been there, on the spot at the Radio, when a mostly young throng
of protesters wanted TO BE HEARD by the Radio, and by way of Radio
by the NATION, you'd understand their utter frustration since doors
were closed (figuratively and LITERALLY) and the message from an ever
swelling crowd of people just did not get through. You'd recall probably
as vividly as I do, that "regular folks", living in rental highrises
surrounding the building of Central Radio Station put their radio sets
out in the windows overlooking the rather narrow Brody Sandor street
(there were no portable radio sets at that time, we must remember).
All these sets, with volume turned up all the way, blared the main radio
program "Kossuth" as a "direct feedback" to the demonstrators who
literally jammed the streets (there were just TWO radio programs in
entire Hungary at that time, the other; "Petofi" of course was also
"wholly owned" by the same state-run Central Radio Studio).

You should, at the least, IMAGINE the kind of frustration of the masses,
building up minute-by-minute. They demanded access to Radio -- and all
the masses could see was a sealed and barricaded massive gateway
of the Radio building, while the same "nonchalant" program (bad pop music,
Stalinist-style, etc, prepared probably weeks ago for an average Tuesday
afternoon) emanated from the Studio, AS IF NOTHING HAPPENED. It was
against this backdrop of ABSOLUTE STONEWALLING that we have to assess the
emotional impact of what the Radio DID NOT DO, and finally DID DO.

Also, listeners were not an armchair audience, say, reading sterilized
HVG brochures thousands of miles away, but a badly injured population
ON THE SPOT, who have already reached the conclusion that very afternoon
that the injury sustained from communisms exceeded saturation:

Thus, since it was read in the bland news every top of the hour that
Mr. Gero will address the Nation at 8:00 on Radio [there was NO television
at that time in Hungary yet], there was a whipped-up expectation, building
up over the course of several hours, that 8:00 P.M. will be some sort of
culmination of that tumultous day in at least a reasonable resolution.
At least a gesture for some sort of compromise was expected.

The injured masses then were UTTERLY INSULTED at 8:00, most severly by
what they expected to hear BUT DID NOT HEAR. (As if a crowd goes to see
fireworks, starting at 8:00, but all they "see" is a thump of a dud).
To start with, the crowd of protesters were NOT addressed at all, though
they jammed the streets around Radio, listening to a badly distorted blare
that came straight from the "horse's mouth", the Radio Station. AS IF THE
CROWD DID NOT EXIST! Gero began his speech: "Dear Comrades, dear friends,
working masses of Hungary!", instead of e.g. addressing the PROTESTERS.
It would have been perceived in a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT MANNER if he said,
for instance: "Tuntetesunk Lelkes Kozonsege! Szeretnek hozzatok szolani,
most ebben a fontos pillanatban" [Our enthusiastic protesters, I'd like to
appeal to you in this historic moment]. From the start, the ignored audience
was completely turned off. In his first sentence, the hated crackling,
dry voice of Gero, started to monotoneously belabor the "successes"
achieved since July: "Az MDP Kozponti Vezetosege ez ev juliusaban fontos
hatarozatokat hozott. E hatarozatokat partunk tagsaga, munkasosztalyunk,
dolgozo parasztsagunk, ertelmisegunk, nepunk helyeslessel, megelegedessel
fogadta" [Central Committe of MDP {Communist} Party passed important
resolutions in July. These resolutions were received by approval and
satisfaction by our Party Members, by our Working Class, by our Working
Peasantry, by our Intelligentsia, by our People]. These callous lies
fell totally flat on the ears of a now enraged mass -- the noise instantly
elevated, shouting broke out in the streets. THOUSANDS of demonstrators
would have not been protesting right there if the entire tirade of that
"approval and satisfaction" (covering all layers of society!) weren't
a blatant lie -- an insult beyond belief of the flabbergasted bystandards.

People just could not comprehend most of the rest of Gero's speech. Weren't
interested in hearing MORE LIES ("Had Enough with Ten Years"). Couldn't
get his exact words anyway, because of escalating "boo" from the crowd.
"What is he saying?" [Mit mond? Mit mond?] asked people those nearer to
Radio sets. "Talking about fascists!" ["Fasisztazik!"] -- came the laconic
answer. People, who with knee-jerk reflexes were told to be "fascists" for
ten years, at the drop of a hat, every time they did not "receive party
resolutions with approval and satisfaction", changed instantly from being
turned off to being outraged. Never mind that Gero was actually harping
on "Horthy-fascism" (every five minutes, LITERALLY). It did not matter,
just as a bull would have no stomach for "fine distinction" if a torreador
was WEARING RED ROBE instead of FLAILING RED ROBE ["Nem allithatok minden
pofon melle kozlekedesi lampat" - fejezi ki ezt Rejto meg kepletessebben].

A MODERN DAY ANALOGY would perhaps be helpful of how NOT to try to
"communicate" -- since I maintain that a "blow up" similar to 56 can indeed
happen again.

If a Nation is INJURED, e.g. hemorrhages $10,000,000.00 EVERY DAY, and
desperately tries to communicate to Mr. Horn, Mr. Bokros, IMF/WorldBank
and Everybody that it "HAD ENOUGH", it is a callous "INSULT to injury" if

(a) Mr. Bokros stonewalls Mr. Horn's instruction to ANSWER Dr. Endrey's
letter, especially since public office MUST, BY LAW, provide answer in
30 days.

(b) Ms. Balogh not only "ignores" the real issue, but issues ad hominem
insults; calling Dr. Endrey "senile", and calling one who seriously
deals with the issue "mindless".

(c) Mr. Fencsik not only "stonewalls" that the US, Europe, Third World,
Leftwing,Rightwing (and everybody in between) have for years been up in
arms against IMF/WorldBank, but masks the REAL ISSUE by ad hominem insults
pitiful attempts of (self)ridicule.

Andras Pellionisz

P.S. For your suggestion that I should be kinder to Ms. Balogh, I am ready
as soon as I get the public apology I demanded for being called "mindless".
If her ego is to brittle for her to admit mistake and apologize for it, she
is "fair game" to be treated in kind.
+ - Re: Clinton-Iliescu Meeting (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Let me knowe how!!!

On Sat, 16 Sep 1995, AND Books wrote:

>  wrote:
> : In less than two weeks, Clinton will meet with Iliescu in the White House.
> let's get together on this one! pleeze!
> janos
+ - Why not socialism? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Eva Durant,

I am sorry I was flippant when I answered:

> I guess I am neither intelligent nor caring! I don't believe that there is
> better option

to capitalism. But the problem is that I know from past experience that you
so firmly believe in the future of socialism that there is no room for

But really, socialism, in the classical sense of the word, failed miserably.
Marx was wrong in many of his analyses of the past as well as the few things
he said about the future. Moreover, how can you believe in socialism after
what has happened in the Soviet Union and in Eastern Europe? The system
simply didn't work. The Soviet Union, in my opinion, collapsed not for
political reasons, but for economic ones. The same is true about the
satellite countries. I think, for example, the Kadar-regime (without Kadar,
of course) would have been able to survive in the political sense, if the
regime could maintain a viable economy. They couldn't. The system failed in
so many respects that I can find it difficult to enumerate them: environment,
health, population growth, economic productivity, morals, and so on and so
forth ad infinitum. I guess you will be shocked to hear that I am not only
not a champion of socialism, I am not even a champion of the European welfare
state. That latter phenomenon has not collapsed yet, not like the soviet-type
of socialism, but at the same time it was not introduced 75 or so years ago
either. I am convinced that the kind of welfare state some of Western
European countries introduced are doomed. In the global competition these
countries will simply not be viable. (There was an extremely interesting
article in the New York Times' business section about the problems of
Mercedes-Benz vis-a-vis the Japanese luxury automakers. I have it on disk and
I will be glad to send it on to you! Just drop a note.) Socialism is not good
for the soul! Easy comes, easy goes! We, human beings, become greedy: we want
more and more and more, especially if we think that it is free. Socialism
also stifles initiative: why should we work harder when in the final analysis
it really doesn't matter. One gets the impression in today's Hungary that
half of the country's problem is a population which spent its formative years
in a socialist state. Initiative is gone, looking after oneself is gone,
responsibility for one's actions is gone, and so on and so forth. At the same
time because they grew up in an economy of scarcity they are terribly
preoccupied with material goods. They are more materialistic than we are who
live in the so-called capitalist economy. And they are selfish too. They
don't really care a hoot about the country, they don't care about the failing
economy, they just want to be sure that all what is "due" them they get.
Somehow, the state will provide! And they don't want to swallow the bitter
pill that the state cannot provide, and even at the time it provided, it
provided on the stinking capitalist bankers' money which now they have to pay
back. Oh, yes, the loans! The common wisdom is that they (the population as a
whole) didn't benefit from this loans. Not at all! They were not responsible
for acquiring these loans and therefore they are not responsible for paying
them back either. Moreover, the West owes them something for Yalta and for
1956. When you try to point out that most of these so-called loans are bonds
held by individuals, the answer is: so what of it! These foreign investors
are rich while we are poor. They don't need the money, we do! Socialism
created a monster! Changing these attitudes will take decades.

So, in brief, I find the aftermath of socialism a disaster! Without a
competitive spirit there is no healthy economy. Naturally, governments in all
developed capitalist countries put limits on the leaders of industry and
business. There are many-many rules and regulations concerning the
environment, monopolies, labor relations and safety, just to mention a few
aspects. But this competition is necessary. Without it there is no economic
growth and no healthy individual development either.

Eva Balogh
+ - Hungarian/English Dictionary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am new on the Discussion List and on the Internet.  For several weeks
now, I have been searching for some way to translate an old letter
written to my Grandfather in Hungarian.  I have been able to translate a
few words, but the dictionary that I have is written for tourists and is
not very complete.

What I am looking for is a dictionary that I can download from the
Internet that contains Hungarian to English (preferred)  or  English to
Hungarian.  I have checked with my local library and they do not have a
Hungarian dictionary of any kind.

Can anyone point me towards a List or Group that I can subscibe to where
I can get information on Hungarian Genealogy?  I am tracing my Great Grand-
Parents that came from Hungary.  I do not speak Hungarian, but I am
trying to teach myself enough Hungarian to be able to correspond with
family once I locate them.

Thank you for any assistance or suggestions.