||The chosen people (mind)
|| 21 sor
||Re: police was:Horn and democracy (mind)
|| 41 sor
||Re: The chosen people (mind)
|| 33 sor
|| 9 sor
||Re: Jewdaism (mind)
|| 24 sor
||Re: The chosen people (mind)
|| 19 sor
||Re: Brilliant idea (mind)
|| 7 sor
||Voice of America report - 8/09/94 (mind)
|| 149 sor
||Re: Michael Jackson, the Liberator? (mind)
|| 25 sor
||Re: Unicuralism (mind)
|| 27 sor
|| 9 sor
||Re: Maigret in Budapest? (mind)
|| 7 sor
||WESTERN EMPLOYERS IN HUNGARY (mind)
|| 11 sor
||Re: Forward Re: Gabcikovo (mind)
|| 20 sor
|+ - ||The chosen people (mind)
Paul Gelencse1r writes:
>>Everyone has freedom to choose his/her religion
>This is not true!! No one can convert to Jewdiism (spelling?), since the
>Jews are an ethnic group, and consider their group to be chosen by God
>and therefore to be a Jew you MUST be a decendent of the Jewish people.
Paul, you are completely misinformed. Of course you can convert to Judaism.
Consult your local rabbi. Some of the milder reform branches wouldn't even
insist on circumcision (Hungarian boys are not routinely circumcised, so
this can be quite a stumbling block). Where did you get this nonsense?
> There will in fact be no more white/European people if over generations all
> (30% per generation for example) intermarry with other racial groups - this
> also applies to Africans or Asians, and would by a tragedy of the same
> magnitude, in my view.
I guess one person's tragedy is the other person's joy. Frankly, I find the
idea of maintaining separate bloodlines for racial purity positively
abhorrent. Seriously:-) why don't you convert to Judaism, emigrate to
Israel, and marry a nice Ethiopian Jewish girl? You can do all these things,
you know (assuming of course that your interest in nEJg-s is reciprocated).
|+ - ||Re: police was:Horn and democracy (mind)
Imi Bokor writes:
> i'm not sure whether we are talking about the same united states of
> but when i spent some time there --- in columbus ohio, i from september
> 1985 to march 1986 to be precise --- i had the less than pleasurable
> of driving along the main road and being stopped by two policemen, and
> asked for identification. that by itself would not have not bothered me,
> all, growing up in a totalitarian society like australia, where police do
> random checks of motor vehicles and motorists, i was accustomed to such
> tactics. i *did* become frightened and apprehensive when of the two
> only one approached the vehicle while the other drew his service
> revolver. but
> perhaps my appearance or driving style aroused suspicion. i abiding by
> the speed limit, didn't meander from lane to lane. i was clean-shaven and
> been smiling, wearing ordinary clothing.the car had all four wheels, the
> headlights were working, the number-plates were clearly visible. but
> maybe that
> counts as "probable cause" in the united states of america.
Well of course I always give the chief the names of all smiling Hungarians
as potential suspicious characters. :-). I do live here and nobody ever
asked me to stop without cause.
Most likely a crime was reported involving a similar color and/or make of
car for which the police do stop cars for. (Personally I am glad for it).
Having had the chance to travel all over the world, I still say that least
bothering by the authorities occurs in the US, Canada and Australia. Other
than speeding offenses I was approached by police only to ask if there is
any trouble with my car where I was stopped. In Hungary I was in taxi when
it was stopped by police. The police explained that he has Americans in the
car and the policeman not realizing that some also understood Hungarian,
used language with the cabbie that made even me blush. IMHO there is still
some catching up to do to arrive at a reasonable balance for Hungarian
police behavior is concerned.
|+ - ||Re: The chosen people (mind)
On Mon, 8 Aug 1994, Andras Kornai wrote:
> >This is not true!! No one can convert to Jewdiism (spelling?), since the
> >Jews are an ethnic group, and consider their group to be chosen by God
> >and therefore to be a Jew you MUST be a decendent of the Jewish people.
> Paul, you are completely misinformed. Of course you can convert to Judaism.
> this can be quite a stumbling block). Where did you get this nonsense?
During the era of Josef Flavious, the Doctors (as the chief rabbis of
Judea and Palestine were called at that time) did came up with several
harsh laws on being and becoming a Jew. This was especially due to the
large number of intermarriage between the Jews and Greeks in Syria. Since
most of the Greeks in Syria were soldiers hired by Rome the decision was
that if, and only if the mother is Jewish so will be the kids.
At the same time since large number of Greek were converting to Judeism
for ideological reason (One God, in defience of Rome's official
"religion", due to the raising Greek national identity, which could not
fall back on its own religion as most of the Greek Gods were copied by
If you want more on the topic I recommand Josef Flavious' books on the
topic who himself was one of the instigator of two Jewish uprising
against Rome (While living in Rome between the two uprising and getting
married first with a Roman then with a Egyptian woman.)(And he wasn't
even from Brooklyn).
The bottom line is, yes it is possible to became a Jew although you are
of none-Jewish origin but you will never became a full member of the faith.
Attila "belagana" Hun
|+ - ||Jewdaism (mind)
Paul: What a silly idea (and uninformedness) that one cannot be converted
to Judaism. In fact, Jews are a very mixed "race" joined together by a
cultural identity (not everyone) and by being victims of prejudices. In
principle, Judaism does not encourage proselytism because being a Jew, at
least a religious one, involves a whole set of sacrifices (just one example:
dietary restrictions). Being a "chosen people" does not mean privileges,
quite on the contrary. It means undertaking lost of obligations that are
not binding for the rest of mankind. This is the religious concept of
"chosen". You can believe this nonreligious Jew... Robert
|+ - ||Re: Jewdaism (mind)
>What a silly idea (and uninformedness) that one cannot be converted
I,ve been told several times over the years by Jews that convertion is not
allowed. I've also aseen references to this in print. I will check agasin
and post my reference,.
>In fact, Jews are a very mixed "race" joined together by a
>cultural identity (not everyone) and by being victims of prejudices.
Mixed yes, but with a line of decendency back through either male or
female ancestors, I forgot which parrent. That is why the famous
Etheopean Jews are Jews - you can follw their ancestors back to the
>It means undertaking lost of obligations that are not binding for the
>rest of mankind.
Can you give examples.?
I ask this sinsxxxx sincerely, not as a wisecrack.
|+ - ||Re: The chosen people (mind)
>Frankly, I find the idea of maintaining separate bloodlines for
> racial purity positively abhorrent.
Why? I expect people to be angry at such a concept, but only as a
response to the horrible things that have happened in the name of
maintaining separate bloodlines. If done in a peaceful and respectful
way, what is wrong with the concept? I submit that a reasonable and
logical ed explanation condemming it does not exist. It is a rational
and valuable concept for maintaining a diverse world, and again, that
is my motivation for making this argument, and not some belief in the
superiority of one group. In fact, if you value diversity you must
accept my ag argument. If you believe mankind is not capable of looking
beyond racial/ethnic differences and living in peace, then promoting
racial/ethnic mixing a reasonable means of defensde.
|+ - ||Re: Brilliant idea (mind)
What time is dinner, or at least dessert?
(try thast again) Paul
|+ - ||Voice of America report - 8/09/94 (mind)
TITLE=SLOVAKIA / HUNGARIANS
INTRO: DESPITE A RECENT IMPROVEMENT IN RELATIONS BETWEEN HUNGARY
AND SLOVAKIA, REPRESENTATIVES OF SLOVAKIA'S ETHNIC HUNGARIAN
MINORITY CONTINUE TO FEEL THAT THEIR RIGHTS ARE NOT BEING FULLY
RESPECTED. V-O-A'S JOLYON NAEGELE HAS BEEN TRAVELLING THROUGH
ETHNIC HUNGARIAN DISTRICTS OF SOUTHERN SLOVAKIA AND SENDS THIS
TEXT: BILINGUALISM IS A TOUCHY ISSUE IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD
WHERE FOR ONE THOUSAND YEARS UNTIL 1919, HUNGARY RULED.
IN THE LATE 19TH CENTURY, HUNGARY TRIED TO SUPPRESS THE SLOVAK
LANGUAGE AND OFFERED ASSIMILATION OR EMIGRATION AS VIRTUALLY THE
ONLY ALTERNATIVES FOR SLOVAKS WHO WANTED TO GET AHEAD IN LIFE.
LAST WEEK, HUNGARIAN PRIME MINISTER GYULA HORN, WHILE ON A VISIT
TO SLOVAKIA, APOLOGIZED FOR EVERYTHING WHICH IN THE PAST RESULTED
IN WRONGS COMMITTED AGAINST THE VARIOUS MINORITIES LIVING IN
HUNGARY. IT REMAINS TO BE SEEN WHAT EFFECT IF ANY HIS COMMENTS
WILL HAVE ON SLOVAK POLICIES TOWARD THE COUNTRY'S NATIVE
HUNGARIAN-SPEAKERS, WHO NUMBER ABOUT 600 THOUSAND, ABOUT HALF OF
THEM GYPSIES, PARTICULARLY IN LIGHT OF THE CURRENT
NATIONALISM-TINGED PARLIAMENTARY ELECTION CAMPAIGN.
AFTER THE COLLAPSE OF THE HAPSBURG EMPIRE, THE HUNGARIAN
CZECHOSLOVAK BORDER WAS DRAWN THROUGH AN AREA WHERE HUNGARIANS
MADE UP A SUBSTANTIAL PORTION OF THE POPULATION. BILINGUALISM
WAS LARGELY TOLERATED UNTIL AFTER THE DISINTEGRATION OF COMMUNIST
POWER NEARLY FIVE YEARS AGO.
SUBSEQUENTLY AS THE CZECHOSLOVAK FEDERATION APPROACHED
DISINTEGRATION, SLOVAK OFFICIALS ENACTED LAWS AND DECREES
RESTRICTING THE USE OF HUNGARIAN IN PUBLIC DISCOURSE. FOR
EXAMPLE, ON ORDERS FROM THE SLOVAK INTERIOR MINISTER (PITTNER),
HUNGARIAN-LANGUAGE SIGNS ON OFFICIAL BUILDINGS WERE REMOVED OR
PAINTED OVER IN SLOVAK.
BUT IN ONE OF THE FEW EXAMPLES OF LOCAL OFFICIALS STANDING UP TO
BRATISLAVA, IN THE SOUTHEASTERNMOST CORNER OF SLOVAKIA,
AUTHORITIES IN VELKE KAPUSANY / NAGYKAPOS RESPONDED WITH A DECREE
OF THEIR OWN, REQUIRING ALL SIGNS IN THE TOWN TO BE BILINGUAL.
AS A RESULT, ALL THE STREET NAMES AND SHOP SIGNS ARE DISPLAYED IN
SLOVAK AND HUNGARIAN. IN THE TOWN HALL, ALL TITLES ON THE DOOR
ARE BILINGUAL -- SLOVAK IN GOLD LETTERING, HUNGARIAN IN SILVER.
THE SLOVAK PARLIAMENT RECENTLY ADOPTED A LAW REQUIRING THE
HUNGARIAN NAME OF A MULTIETHNIC TOWN TO APPEAR AT THE CITY LIMITS
ALONG WITH THE SLOVAK NAME, EXCEPT IN CASES WHERE THE TOWN IS
NAMED AFTER A SLOVAK, SUCH AS GABCIKOVO, HURBANOVO OR SAFARIKOVO.
OFFICIALS SAY SLOVAKS WHO OBJECT TO THE BILINGUAL SIGNS TEND NOT
TO HAVE BEEN RAISED IN A MULTIETHNIC ENVIRONMENT BUT RATHER CAME
FROM THE ETHNICALLY PURE INTERIOR OF THE COUNTRY AND FIND IT HARD
TO UNDERSTAND WHY ANY OTHER LANGUAGE BUT SLOVAK SHOULD BE USED IN
AN OFFICIAL CAPACITY ON SLOVAK TERRITORY.
NEVERTHELESS, BILINGUAL SIGNS CAN BE VERY HELPFUL, AS IN LEVICE
IN SOUTH CENTRAL SLOVAKIA, WHERE A PRIVATE BUTCHER SHOP ON THE
MAIN SQUARE IS DISPLAYING TWO HUGE DIAGRAMS OVER THE COUNTER
SHOWING A CROSS SECTION OF BEEF AND PORK CARCASSES WITH THE NAMES
OF THE VARIOUS CUTS OF MEAT IN SLOVAK AND HUNGARIAN.
// OPT // UNTIL THE FIRST WORLD WAR, THE GEMER OR GOEMOER
REGION, WAS ONE OF THE MOST ECONOMICALLY DEVELOPED PARTS OF
HUNGARY. THE SLOVAK-HUNGARIAN BORDER HAS BISECTED THE REGION FOR
NEARLY THREE QUARTERS OF A CENTURY LEAVING COMMUNITIES ON BOTH
SIDES IN A STEADY ECONOMIC DECLINE THAT HAS YET TO BOTTOM OUT.
THE DISTRICT OF RIMAVSKA SOBOTA OR RIMSZOMBAT ON THE SLOVAK SIDE
OF THE BORDER HAS THE HIGHEST UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IN SLOVAKIA --
NEARLY 27 PERCENT. // END OPT //
THE DIRECTOR OF THE GEMER REGIONAL MUSEUM IN RIMAVSKA SOBOTA,
STEFAN OR ISTVAN KOVAC, AN ETHNIC HUNGARIAN, DESCRIBES THE
SITUATION AS CATASTROPHIC. HE INSISTS THAT BILINGUAL STREET
SIGNS ARE NOT THE MAIN ISSUE BUT ARE RATHER WHAT HE TERMS A
THIRD RATE PROBLEM.
MR. KOVAC PREDICTS NOTHING WOULD HAPPEN IF THE HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE
SIGNS WERE PUT BACK UP AND STATUES OF LOCAL PROMINENT HUNGARIANS,
DISMANTLED AFTER THE SECOND WORLD WAR, WERE RETURNED TO THEIR
THE MUSEUM DIRECTOR COMPLAINS NOTHING HAS BEEN DONE BECAUSE AS HE
PUTS IT, THE SLOVAK PART OF THE POPULATION CANNOT IMAGINE BEING
TRUE PARTNERS WITH THEIR HUNGARIAN FELLOW CITIZENS. IN HIS
WORDS, THE SLOVAKS ARE ACTING AS IF THEY ARE DOING THE HUNGARIANS
A FAVOR BY GRANTING THEM RIGHTS TO WHICH HE SAYS EVERY CITIZEN,
REGARDLESS OF NATIONALITY IS DUE.
// MUSEUM KOVAC ACT //
SOM RAZ POVEDAL, ZE BY SOM BOL VELMI RAD KEBY SME
NIEKEDY KONCOM NASHO STOROCIA, ZE BYSME SA DOSTALI TAM
KDE SME BOLI NA PRELOME STOROCIA.
// END ACT //
I WOULD BE VERY HAPPY IF SOMETIME AT THE END OF THIS CENTURY WE
COULD GET TO WHERE WE WERE AT THE TURN OF THIS CENTURY, MUSEUM
DIRECTOR KOVAC SAYS, EXPLAINING THAT REESTABLISHING THE
CENTURIES-OLD ECONOMIC AND CUTURAL TIES WITHIN THE GEMER REGION,
DESPITE THE PRESENCE OF THE SLOVAK-HUNGARIAN BORDER WOULD ENABLE
// OPT // THE CHAIRMAN OF THE RIMAVSKA SOBOTA LOCAL COUNCIL
(PREDNOSTA ZASTUPITELSTVA) LADISLAV OR LASZLO KOVAC, ALSO AN
ETHNIC HUNGARIAN, SAYS RIMAVSKA SOBOTA DISTRICT HAS BEEN
ALLOCATED VERY LITTLE FOR MODERNIZATION AND DEVELOPMENT OVER THE
DECADES FOR POLITICAL REASONS -- BECAUSE IT IS A BORDER REGION
AND AN ETHNICALLY MIXED AREA. IN HIS WORDS, POLITICIANS IN
BRATISLAVA HAVE ALWAYS PERCEIVED THIS DISTRICT AS UNRELIABLE.
// OPT // MR. KOVAC SUGGESTS THAT ANY MONEY THAT WAS INVESTED
WAS DONE TO THE BENEFIT OF SLOVAK RESIDENTS. THUS, ALTHOUGH THE
TOWN HAS AT LEAST AS MANY HUNGARIANS AS SLOVAKS, IT HAS FOUR
SLOVAK SCHOOLS, THREE OF THEM RELATIVELY NEW, AND ONE DECREPIT
HUNGARIAN SCHOOL, WHICH WILL SOON BE RELIEVED BY A NEW SCHOOL
BUILT WITH LOCAL FUNDS.
// OPT // THE OFFICIAL SAYS THAT FOR DECADES NOW MANY HUNGARIAN
PARENTS HAVE BEEN SENDING THEIR OFFSPRING TO THE BETTER EQUIPED
SLOVAK SCHOOLS WHERE THE CHILDREN HAVE HAD NO ACCESS TO
INSTRUCTION IN HUNGARIAN LANGUAGE AND LITERATURE AND HAVE EMERGED
AS THOROUGHLY ASSIMILATED SLOVAKS. // END OPT // (SIGNED)
09-Aug-94 1:03 PM EDT (1703 UTC)
Source: Voice of America
Use of the NEB Wire
The contents of the NEB wire are not copyrighted. However, if you publish or
rebroadcast any of these reports, please be certain to use the latest version
that was available at the time of publication or rebroadcast. VOA news
materials that are published or rebroadcast should be used in their entirety.
Please credit the Voice of America as the source in any subsequent
|+ - ||Re: Michael Jackson, the Liberator? (mind)
>> --I find it terribly embarassing that a so-called "entertainer"
>> would trivialize Hungary's experience under Soviet domination.
>> I am surprised that the government is cooperating. It is beyond
>> ridiculous. It is scandalous. Michael Jackson should be ashamed.
>Your concern is appreciated, but consider this:
>Most Jackson fans don't have the foggiest where Hungary is or about her
>struggle under the yoke of Communism. This may be the only way to
>get to those kids and inform them about it. So on balance I can see it
>as a positive for Hungary's image.
>Maybe Jackson got the idea from seeing those recent GE commercials about
>Hungary which I also found very positive.
>Well, money still talks, doesn't it?
I agree with Charles and Jozsef.
The GE commercials, main focus was on Hungary to which GE is only a helping
hand. The Michael Jackson video idolizes a person, and since his statue will b
on the Hero's Square, it is certainly in bad taste. I rather criticise the
govarment, but since we are a
poor country, the temptations must have been very strong.
|+ - ||Re: Unicuralism (mind)
> But surely it is not obvious how it will cause problem, or else my
>repeated basic questions on this wouldn't have gone unanswered ;-(. Since
>you are, just like Paul, referring to some trends, let's look at a
>numerical example. Let's assume that the immigration rate is going to be
>sustained at a level of say 1% in every 5yrs; to round out the doomsday
>scenario (and simplify the 'rithmetic) let's also assume a negative
>growth for the home-bred Hungarian stock of -1%/5yrs. Then 100 yrs down
>the line in the worst case we'll have about 8 million
>'real-biological-cultural' Hungarians and 2 million presumably
>unassimilated 'alien elements'. Where exactly the alleged threat to our
>culture is coming from, and what is getting lost?
This is excrutiatingly over simplified. You have completely ignored
intermarriage. Also, in response to your example, 100 years is a short
time, 20% of the population is very significant.
Also, Sandor makes a good point that world overpopulation means
mass global migration is inevitable. Given the economic and
environmental devistation which will follow, it is irrisponsible
to allow your country to be destroyed, since that does not address
the underlying problem of too many people being born. Destruction
of western countries who would otherwise be able to address the
problems of poor nations, is short sighted.
|+ - ||Jobs (mind)
Does anyone know if there are local or western companies in Hungary designing
integrated circuits (computer chips)? I'd be interested in looking for
Other types of electronics companies would also be of interest.
|+ - ||Re: Maigret in Budapest? (mind)
Who or what is Maigret??
>running some Maigret stories in the "Mystery" series.
>Can it be that Maigret's Paris is being portrayed by Budapest?
|+ - ||WESTERN EMPLOYERS IN HUNGARY (mind)
Someone recently posted a request for "INTERNATIONAL ORGANIZATIONS WHO EMPLOY
WESTERN CITIZENS" and "EMPLOYMENT AGENCIES WHO COULD MEDIA-
TE BETWEEN SUCH ORGANIZATIONS AND PROSPECTIVE EMPLOYEES"
If anyone has info regarding this, please pass it on to me also.
|+ - ||Re: Forward Re: Gabcikovo (mind)
On Mon, 8 Aug 1994 wrote:
> are many forms of tax encouragements to save energy.
> Yet another reason is claimed by Magyar nationalist circles both in
> Hungary and in Slovakia. There is a parallel between this phenomenon and
> the Anti-Czech paranoia certain Slovaks are cultivating. Gabcikovo would
> be constructed to beton the boundary, so that it would be more difficult
> eventually to claim the territory back. (Remark the conditional mode I am
> writing about this, it's an information and not a sign of taking any
> position;-) From the European Union perspective, it's increasingly
> becoming clear that such considerations are becoming a non-sense. It
> also seems that the new Hungarian government is taking a more pragmatic
> approach to address this issue.
> There are even more reasons one could write long articles about - sorry,
Just one of them: The main target is to break up the block of hungarian
community in 'Csallo'ko:z', to change the ehtnic picture in S. Slovakia.