Interesting review.  Thanks to Hugh Agnew for forwarding to the list.
I had no idea that Eotvos was corresponding with de Toqueville, and
has written to J.S. Mill.  Did Mill ever respond?  Are the Toqueville
letters extant?  Have they been published?  Are they in the Paul Body
article mentioned in the bibliography?  Perhaps Prof. Agnew can find
out by posing the question to the august members of the Habsburg list
(a closed list that does not admit ordinary mortals, alas).

-----
Gabor Fencsik

At 09:22 PM 5/15/97 GMT, Eva Durant wrote:

>Interestingly and depressingly I've just seen the first cigarette
>advert in HVG (with the appropriate health warning ofcourse.)
>
>Yes, why don't we blame those ignorant Hungarians!
>
>As it happens, the laws on cigarette advertising were probably
>stricter in Hungary than in the US now.

        I am no expert on Hungarin tobacco advertising in the past but even
if it were true that laws on cigarette advertising were stricter in the good
old Kadar-regime than it is today in the United States, such strict laws
didn't do any good. None whatsoever. Because it is not enough to ban
advertising of cigarettes. A government serious about the perils of smoking
must do a little more: like launching an anti-smoking campaign.
        As for those strict laws. As far as I know they are still on the
books, but with so many other things, they are totally ignored.

>Guess who bought up
>the Hungarian tobacco industry, and who gets intensive marketing, now
>that the west's killing-market is shrinking.

        There is no question that the western tobacco companies targeted the
Far East and East Europe for expansion, but they are not the ones who are
primarily responsible for the smoking habits of the population. They are
simply taking advantage of a large market already in place. Surely, even Eva
Durant will have to admit that the tobacco industry traditionally being a
state monopoly didn't induce the former government to fight against smoking.
On the contrary.

>Blame the
>stress!    Before 1989 due to the necessity to work two or more jobs
>for a decent living and constantly being annoyed by the burocracy,
>now on top of the same there is also the worry about having a job
>at all,  affordable education, or a working local hospital, crime
>etc, etc.

        Eva's prejudices get her into trouble here and there. This is one of
those occasions. She claims that since the change of regime the stress
suffered by the population has been greater than before because of
unemployment, lack of job security, impoverishment, and so on and so forth.
Thus, if Eva's thesis about growing stress results in greater number of
smokers were true then one would assume that tobacco consumption must be
steadily growing in the last seven years due to all the stress accompanying
the economic changeover. However, just the opposite is true. Most likely
thanks to greater awareness the consumption of tobacco and alcohol has been
actually decreasing in Hungary. ESB

At 10:31 AM 5/15/97 -0400, Peter Stefanics was asking Bela Liptak
about cancer statistics. Unfortunately, I have thrown out Bela Liptak's
original posting about the World Bank and the World Health organization and
thus I have to rely on Peter's questions. I have a fairly recent statistical
yearbook on hand which gives details on mortality and its causes.

        I must say that the statistics are somewhat frightening. As for
cancer: all kinds of cancer are included in the following statistics. The
first category is new patients with malignant neoplasm per ten thousand
population. In 1980 21,5, in 1990 27,1; in 1994 22,9. Next: Malignant
neoplasm mortality rate per ten thousand population. In 1980: 25,7; in 1994:
31,9.
        When it comes to alcoholism the estimated number of alcohol addicted
persons: 1,048,000. Registered alcohol addicted people per 10,000
population. In 1980: 46,6. In 1994: 51.4. As for number of persons died due
to alcoholic liver cirhosis: in 1980, 1,194 but in 1994: 7,277 out 146,889.
        To put all this into perspective here are some comparisons with the
United States. The first number reflects the situation in the US and the
second in Hungary per 100,000. Ischemic heart disease: 169.9/260.5;
Cerebro-vascular disease: 48.3/169.9; cancer of the lung, trachea, bronchus:
57.7/65.7; cancer of the stomach: 5.4/22.9; cancer of the breast: 31.6/35.0;
bronchitis, emphysema, asthma: 9.2/41.0; chronic liver disease and
cirrhosis: 9.2/78.8. (Source: The American Almanac, 1966-67, p. 832.)
        ESB

At 09:56 AM 5/17/97 -0700, Gabor Fencsik wrote:
>> Tegnap egy kerest postaztam a Kepviselohaz tagjainak a Duna dolgaban
>> (Melleklet) es a cimlista gepelese kozben vettem eszre, hogy Magyarorszagon 
a
>> miniszterek egyben kepviselok is. Ez nekem alapvetoen helytelennek tunik es
>> ezert kerni szeretnem, hogy foglalkozzatok ezzel a kerdessel, ha kiterjed
>> erre az Alkotmanybirosag hataskore.
>
>Is this a joke, or what?

        This is a sure way of discrediting the efforts of Bela Liptak's
lobby efforts. It shows real ignorance. The Constitutional Court will be
astonished to hear this. ESB

At 06:37 PM 5/18/97 GMT, Eva Durant and I don't agree on two many things,
but we more or less agree on the harmful effects of smoking. Whether one has
never smoked in one's life or one has but decided at one point that smoking
was the stupidest thing he/she has ever done, it is becoming irrefutable
that smoking is responsible for a whole series of ailments, from heart
disease to emphysema and lung cancer. The high mortality rate in Hungary, I
am sure, is related to high incidents of smoking and alcoholism.

>anti-smoking
>campaigns won't succeed when cigarettes are dead cheap and the most
>opinion-forming sections are under the biggest pressure.

        Anti-smoking slogans are simply not enough. There must also be other
deterrants: high taxation on cigarettes, restrictions on smoking in public,
just to mention two. Somehow the campaign must result in social
inacceptability of smoking itself. That is pretty much what has happened in
the United States. As for price of cigarettes, lately I haven't checked but
it is still too inexpensive. While in the United States a pack of cigarettes
is around $2.00, in Hungary it is less than $1.00. A country which needs
revenues badly should not hesitate to put a heft "sin tax" on tobacco
products. They would kill two birds with one stone.

>In the shool where I worked for a year in the 80s. there were two
>members of staff who did not smoke - one of them me.
>Ditto for nurses and doctors.

        Quite. The funniest (the sadest?) thing I encountered was a doctor
relative of mine (by marriage) who is a radiologist and smokes!!! Heavily!
And the last time I saw her she showed not the slightest inclination to quit.

        ESB

I just heard via Hungary that the Czech republic is in serious
economic trouble at the moment. The Czech crown is crumbling, there is a
government crisis, and western capital is fleeing from the Czech republic.
So, say the Hungarian critics, Klaus's "painless transition" from
"socialism" to "capitalism" is a failure.
        The New York Times--although I like the paper very much--has not
reported a thing on the Czech republic lately, so we, in this country, are
not really aware of what's going on at the moment in Prague.
        A lot of Hungarian economists predicted a sad end to the Czech
miracle. After all, the Czechs didn't really make fundamental changes in the
economic structure: the former state companies were simply renamed and
everything else remained the same. Sooner or later, the critics said, the
reconing will be unavoidable. According to the latest news, the reconing
arrived. ESB

At 06:37 PM 5/18/97 GMT, Eva Durant wrote:
>> Thus, if Eva's thesis about growing stress results in greater number of
>> smokers were true then one would assume that tobacco consumption must be
>> steadily growing in the last seven years due to all the stress accompanying
>> the economic changeover. However, just the opposite is true. Most likely
>> thanks to greater awareness the consumption of tobacco and alcohol has been
>> actually decreasing in Hungary. ESB
>>
>
>This appears to be good news! What I don't understand then, why a
>previous correspondent wanted an education offensive to be exported
>to Hungary to stop the supposed ignorance about the hazards on
>smoking and drinking in this case?

        Well, because a great deal more could be done. Both alcohol and
tobacco consumption is down but not dramatically. However, it took the
United States about twenty years and tough laws to push down smoking to such
low levels as it is now. So, one cannot expect miracles.
        You may recall that parliament was supposed to discuss a proposal
for an anti-smoking law sometime last September. I have been following the
news quite closely and I don't think that it even got to the the floor. And
when it does, I'm afraid, that it will be emasculated beyond recognition.
        ESB

I have just heard this morning in the Hungarian broadcast that tourists
are charged incredible prices in hotels and restaurants in Hungary.  Eg.
a Danish party of 4 was charged 1,000,000 (one million) forints for a
meal - about $1,400.  The racketeering is such that the US embassy issued
a list of restaurants and stores where it is safe to it and shop.

Agnes

At 07:42 PM 17/05/97 -0700, you wrote:
>Interesting review.  Thanks to Hugh Agnew for forwarding to the list.
[...]
Ditto ...ditto ....  ever so nice to see the name pop up every now and then?

Btw ... Strange coincidence ... since recently having been engaged in
searching for antique books for a friend, a series by Eotvos was one, that
I actually opted to forgoe purchasing.... in Hungarian yet ...  If anyone
out there's interested in acquiring such, let me know.  Y'all know how to
find me - while hoping the series remains to be had ...

Regards,
Aniko D.

Friends,

   I agree with both Eva Balogh and Gabor Fencsik that the request
for a letter campaign to the  Constitutional Court of Hungary must
be the result of either  ignorance or misplaced zeal.  Either way,
such a campaing not only will annoy the Constitutional Court, with
good reason, but may  also discredit the  Hungarian Lobby and Bela
Liptak. I don't agree with many things the Lobby campaigns for,but
such a result would be a shame.
   I have written  the following  in connection  with the proposed
campaign to the International Court back in February:

>                                          As I have said earlier,
> such a campaign will result in the  alienation of those domestic
> and foreign leaders whose help the action was to attain.
>    I am not deluding myself that  because of my view on the mat-
> ter the campaign will stop. True believers are seldom swayed.But
> I would be amiss not to comment on it.

   I have no reason to change my mind,
                                        Amos

At 10:40 AM 5/17/97 -0700, Gabor Fencsik wrote:

<snip>
>The Munkaspart is mostly a bunch of nostalgic old fogies, ex-members
>of the Workers' Militia, ex-party functionaries, and the like.  They
>get together to sing the old songs and reminesce about the good old times.
>Actually, they mostly get together at funerals.  They are quite irrelevant,
>but it is hard to describe them as anything but "Left".  Perhaps the
>"Stalinist Left" is better, so "progressive leftists" don't take offense.

I would call them conservative.  I would have called them conservative when
they were in power.  To me, 'left' also implies a political challenge to
the existing social structure in order to make it more equitable and more
democratic.  The Munkaspart supporters want a return to the past for
personal gain.  There's nothing equitable about that, regardless of their
rhetoric.

>As for what you call the "progressive" left, such a thing does exist
>in Hungary but it is weak and disorganized.  The governing Socialists
>are really a Big Tent type of a party combining many ideological factions,
>although they are currently being dominated by an ideology-free pragmatic
>wing.

What does that mean?  If they're ideology-free pragmatists, are they in
favour of nothing?  Have they given up in the face of a greater power?

>There is a social democratic faction led by Ivan Vitanyi that
>professes views similar to the left wing of the German Socialists.  The
>FIDESZ used to be strong on Green politics and minority rights, but they
>mostly purged themselves of such tendencies in their hurry to stake out
>a "Center Right" position.

It's parties like FIDESZ, with their unashamed opportunism, that give
politics a bad name.  I was quite excited with FIDESZ's fresh approach to
politics when they first appeared on the political landscape.  Their
popularity was high, but then they discovered that Green politics and
minority rights were a hindrance to the insatiable accumulation of capital,
and something had to give.  So they gave up on Green politics and human
rights.  And their popularity dropped.  Serves them right.

Joe Szalai

>
>         There is no question that the western tobacco companies targeted the
> Far East and East Europe for expansion, but they are not the ones who are
> primarily responsible for the smoking habits of the population. They are
> simply taking advantage of a large market already in place. Surely, even Eva
> Durant will have to admit that the tobacco industry traditionally being a
> state monopoly didn't induce the former government to fight against smoking.
> On the contrary.
>

Well, I don't remember  "on the contrary", I don't remember posters,
tv adverts or newspapers having cigarett adverts.
but yes, anti-smoking
campaigns won't succeed when cigarettes are dead cheap and the most
opinion-forming sections are under the biggest pressure.
In the shool where I worked for a year in the 80s. there were two
members of staff who did not smoke - one of them me.
Ditto for nurses and doctors.

E.Durant

> Thus, if Eva's thesis about growing stress results in greater number of
> smokers were true then one would assume that tobacco consumption must be
> steadily growing in the last seven years due to all the stress accompanying
> the economic changeover. However, just the opposite is true. Most likely
> thanks to greater awareness the consumption of tobacco and alcohol has been
> actually decreasing in Hungary. ESB
>

This appears to be good news! What I don't understand then, why a
previous correspondent wanted an education offensive to be exported
to Hungary to stop the supposed ignorance about the hazards on
smoking and drinking in this case?

E.Durant

>
> At 09:56 AM 5/17/97 -0700, Gabor Fencsik wrote:
> >> Tegnap egy kerest postaztam a Kepviselohaz tagjainak a Duna dolgaban
> >> (Melleklet) es a cimlista gepelese kozben vettem eszre, hogy Magyarorszago
n
 a
> >> miniszterek egyben kepviselok is. Ez nekem alapvetoen helytelennek tunik e
s
> >> ezert kerni szeretnem, hogy foglalkozzatok ezzel a kerdessel, ha kiterjed
> >> erre az Alkotmanybirosag hataskore.
> >
> >Is this a joke, or what?
>
>         This is a sure way of discrediting the efforts of Bela Liptak's
> lobby efforts. It shows real ignorance. The Constitutional Court will be
> astonished to hear this. ESB
>

Well, I agreed with the objections. What is the ignorant bit?
Here in the UK ministers are MPs.
(and what would happen to us, if we couldn't even have the fun of
ministers - such as the hated figure of Michael Portillo - losing
their seats.)
Would you write a letter to a British constitutional
committee, using the same tone?

(such as "We ex-patriot brits think that you are doing the wrong thing
overthere..."? I'd love to have a letter from such a group
criticising the monarchy and the house of lords...)

E.Durant

> I would call them conservative.  I would have called them conservative when
> they were in power.  To me, 'left' also implies a political challenge to
> the existing social structure in order to make it more equitable and more
> democratic.  The Munkaspart supporters want a return to the past for
> personal gain.  There's nothing equitable about that, regardless of their
> rhetoric.
>

Yes I would call them conservative, too, but I'd like to make a
point.  There are still quite a few working-class/fairly
poor to very poor people - as there always were - supporting what
basically is the remnant of a communist party. A large percent of
those in it for personal gain, left ages ago to join the "szocialist"
party (or anything else that serve their career chances).
Loads of those still there - and the same goes for the few old
stalinist communist dears still making it to some form of CP meating
here in the UK ... still hope for a socialism that can be built
around some father figure. Or they have no other option if they want
to belong anything that still has a few points in their program that
could be called faintly socialist. Whatever- they are being conned
yet again.