Short reply to Ms. Balogh's complaints:
(a) On what basis do you try "justify" your calling DR. ENDREY "senile"
by anything that concerns DR. PELLIONISZ? (b) Why do you attempt
justifying the ad hominem attacks against me by Mr. Fencsik here
with my writings in "Forum" . As you know, I NEVER BEFORE engaged
in debate with Mr. Fencsik anywhere, don't even recall that he ever
participated in Forum.

Long reply to Ms. Balogh's complaints:
You are either mistaken or intentionally twist the truth by trying to
placate me as a "follower of a rightwing party in Hungary".  I am not
a member (have never been at any time in my life) in ANY political
party or organization, anywhere, don't even "follow" any particular
party.  BTW, The party that appeals to me the most in Hungary is
FKGP, which is (1) not a rightwing party at all, (2) happens to appeal
to the LARGEST electoral group among all the parties, thus have the
best established legitimacy and advocates a centralist policy,
and distinguishes itself with a consistent anticommunist stance.

"Here you go again" -- you attack ME, probably because you want to
distract attention from the fact that the party (SZDSZ) that YOUR
views appear to be identical with is a fringe-group of left-wing
liberals with no credible political principles, as they put forth the
most demagogue "antibolsevist" propaganda at the first "free"
elections (1990) only to turn out the sole and sickeningly power-
starved coalition-partner of COMMUNISTS who returned to power in
1994.  The cabinet whose policies you support boasts 220 years of
communist party membership (in the highest possible ranks!).
One coalition partner is led by a former member of the famed
"workers' militia" who with his own armed hands helped suppress
the 1956 revolution. The other coalition- partner is led by the son of
a high-ranking officer of AVO (Hungarian KGB); thus this coalition
will NEVER get rid of the criminal gang of communists and their
cohorts.

As for your "teaching history" of Hungary, your calling 1956 "socialist
revolution" is on record, and so is your reliance in interpreting
Trianon on the book of Nicolson, who candidly wrote "I regard and
still regard that Turanian tribe [the Magyars] with acute distate".  His
own words impeach Nicolson as a fair witness to a degree that no
decent historian would regard him as an unbiased source in vital
issues of Hungary. It is thoroughly unprofessional for a historian, in
my opinion, to use a hate-filled book as objective reference, and it is
extra shameful to do such disgrace against a small country, truncated
to 1/3 of her former size, which country -by the way- is supposedly
your Homeland.
Dr. Andras Pellionisz

Does anyone have any knowledge about where I can obtain quantities

of hemp twine currently being produced in Hungary?

Thanks

Ed Johnson

fax 604 479 8883

As an eyewitness on the streets of Budapest in 1956, I have a very strong
opinion of "historians" who professionally misrepresent the Hungarian
Revolution in 1956. It wasn't a "Socialist Revolution", my friends and
fellow countrymen
died in heroic bloody fights *against communism*". Thus, I'd like to
remind readers of Hungary that perhaps it is not by mere accident that she
elects to "ignore" her infamous treachery of Freedom Fighters. (To make it
worse, she kind of 'consciously ignores' the issue, another telling
oxymoron, similar to a 'socialist revolution' in a socialist country)

To talk about something else, she would nitpick on my statement that "In
the "Forum", Ms. Balogh is practically alone with her strange views that
re-paying a $30 billion debt is 'easy'". I did not say that she originated
this absurdity or that she is alone IN THE WORLD with this cynical view. My
statement was that she (a) appears to share this view (that was publicized
in HVG, the weekly flagship of Hungarian ruling liberalism), and (b) that
no one except Ms. Balogh appeared to subscribe to the insult-to-injury that
repaying $30 Billion would be 'easy' for Hungary. I implied that Ms.Balogh
thinks it is 'easy' since she quoted profusely that sordid opinion, without
a single word of condemning it. However,
I would be happy for the reader to keep an open mind and ask here Ms. Balogh
(let's hear the truth from the horse's mouth): "Is it Ms. Balogh's opinion
that is it 'easy' for Hungary to repay $30 Billion, or she thinks, just as
we do, that it is something other than 'easy'?"

Ms. Balogh also bellyaches my labelling her "pushing the SZDSZ party-line";
yet she continues under the same bredth with her credo of "austerity program,
reform of the administration and the existing social services, privatization,
true market economy and the repayment of Hungary's debt". Well, I take her
instructions "Call it what you wish"; and since the slogans appear to have
come out straight from the HVG/SZDSZ portfolio, I simply say: "What looks
like an SZDSZ-duck, queeks like an SZDSZ-duck, walks like an SZDSZ-duck...".
One could, of course, ask Ms. Balogh to tell the truth if she gets guidance
of SZDSZ-circles or "paralegal" advice e.g. from some Fencsik (I do recall
reading a rather interesting piece in HVG signed with this not-so-common
name...), but one should not really expect a straight answer, so why bother?

If I were Ms.Balogh, I would not complain for lack of fairness, anyway.
I do recall that she called someone "rat" (and on top of it, she admitted
erring THE NAME [not the accusation] - yet she categorically refused to
apologize).  Also, just a few days ago she called Dr. Endrey "senile".
While Ms. Balogh is a tiny bit younger than Dr. Erdey thus (she perhaps
thought) the adjective would pass, I am not as old as she is. Since Ms.
Balogh cannot call me "senile" without implicating herself even more,
thus she calls me "mindless" (as recently as in her letter yesterday).
I regard this a more serious insult than calling someone "senile". That
adjective puts blame on advanced age, and not on the person. "Mindless",
however, is a purely "ad hominem" attack. Therefore, I demand hereby a
public apology from Ms. Balogh for having publicly used the "mindless"
adjective in conjunction with my good name.  [Dr.Andras Pellionisz]

As an eyewitness on the streets of Budapest in 1956, I have a very strong
opinion of "historians" who professionally misrepresent the Hungarian
Revolution in 1956. It wasn't a "Socialist Revolution", my friends and
fellow countrymen
died in heroic bloody fights *against communism*". Thus, I'd like to
remind readers of Hungary that perhaps it is not by mere accident that she
elects to "ignore" her infamous treachery of Freedom Fighters. (To make it
worse,
she kind of 'consciously ignores' the issue, another telling oxymoron,
similar to a 'socialist revolution' in a socialist country)

To talk about something else, she would nitpick on my statement that "In
the "Forum", Ms. Balogh is practically alone with her strange views that
re-paying a $30 billion debt is 'easy'". I did not say that she originated
this absurdity or that she is alone IN THE WORLD with this cynical view. My
statement was that she (a) appears to share this view (that was publicized
in HVG, the weekly flagship of Hungarian ruling liberalism), and (b) that
no one except Ms. Balogh appeared to subscribe to the insult-to-injury that
repaying $30 Billion would be 'easy' for Hungary. I implied that Ms.Balogh
thinks it is 'easy' since she quoted profusely that sordid opinion, without
a single word of condemning it. However,
I would be happy for the reader to keep an open mind and ask here Ms. Balogh
(let's hear the truth from the horse's mouth): "Is it Ms. Balogh's opinion
that is it 'easy' for Hungary to repay $30 Billion, or she thinks, just as
we do, that
it is something other than 'easy'?"

Ms. Balogh also bellyaches my labelling her "pushing the SZDSZ party-line";
yet she continues under the same bredth with her credo of "austerity program,
reform of the administration and the existing social services, privatization,
true market economy and the repayment of Hungary's debt". Well, I take her
instructions "Call it what you wish"; and since the slogans appear to have
come out straight from the HVG/SZDSZ portfolio, I simply say: "What looks
like an SZDSZ-duck, queeks like an SZDSZ-duck, walks like an SZDSZ-duck...".
One could, of course, ask Ms. Balogh to tell the truth if she gets guidance
of SZDSZ-circles or "paralegal" advice e.g. from some Fencsik (I do recall
reading a rather interesting piece in HVG signed with this not-so-common
name...), but one should not really expect a straight answer, so why bother?

If I were Ms.Balogh, I would not complain for lack of fairness, anyway.
I do recall that she called someone "rat" (and on top of it, she admitted
erring THE NAME [not the accusation] - yet she categorically refused to
apologize).  Also, just a few days ago she called Dr. Endrey "senile".
While Ms. Balogh is a tiny bit younger than Dr. Erdey thus (she perhaps
thought) the adjective would pass, I am not as old as she is. Since Ms.
Balogh cannot call me "senile" without implicating herself even more,
thus she calls me "mindless" (as recently as in her letter yesterday).
I regard this a more serious insult than calling someone "senile". That
adjective puts blame on advanced age, and not on the person. "Mindless",
however, is a purely "ad hominem" attack. Therefore, I demand hereby a
public apology from Ms. Balogh for having publicly used the "mindless"
adjective in conjunction with my good name.  [Dr.Andras Pellionisz]

I thank Tamas Kocsis (Zurich) and "" [Ferenc] for
successfully closing another round of the "Revolt of Hungarian
Bankloan-Slaves against IMF/WorldBank".

In my opinion, Ferenc is absolutely right in summing up the round
just won "What is the sense of calling someone senile, or the figment of
someone else's imagination?  I get a sense that the people who resort
to this style of debate feel themselves threatened by radical new ideas
and, lacking a rational response, proceed in cutting them down the only
way they can."  Of course, this is exactly what they have been attempting.
First, to kill the whole damned "ultra-dangerous" idea, before it gets
out of "Hodmezovasarhely". All readers who are not IN Hungary but ON Hungary
(on this list) can now appreciate under what kind of pressures is
Dr. Endrey (and the other 9.999 million Hungarian souls, who have an even
less "international standing")! Dr. Endrey (and his fellow-countrymen) are
not in the USA, where free speech is constitutionally guaranteed. Dr.
Endrey aims at World Publicity in a remote village in Hungary (with 50
thousand souls, where there are zillions of ways for the "local rulers"
to make his life hell). Yet, WE passed the point where the "dangerous
idea" could be nipped in the bud, and in fact it is the vicious wave of
"ad hominem" attacks which got discredited on the international mini-forum
of "Hungary".

One could not agree with Tamas Kocsis more, who says "I still think that
the original idea is a good one. I say it again: it is entirely a political
game, the economical, legal and other technical details are secondary, the
discussion went to wrong direction."  Of course it is a political game,
and it is precisely WHY it "went to wrong direction". It did not go the
wayside by itself. It got intentionally DERAILED, such that the issue should
not be the horrendous (truly historical) political weight of the concept
of suing for damages, but the "senility, the laughable impossibility
of legal formalities and technicalities, read fine print in US Constitution,
and try to read publications that are SURELY impossible to obtain in the
local library of Szabo Ervin of "Hodmezovasarhely"".

Yes, we can help by "Throwing the Book" back at those who misquote the
fineprint, throw the stone back at those who put rocks on the tracks
to derail the engine. Yes, there are precedents for "unprecedented"
lawsuits!  Yes, it is possible to SERIOUSLY contemplate the numerous
legal alternatives for what EVERYONE agrees upon (do we not?): A HISTORICAL
UNJUSTICE AGAINST ANY NATION MUST NOT GO WITHOUT FULL FINANCIAL
COMPENSATION.

Now comes the phase that Kocsis Tamas focuses on, as a laser-beam:
THE ISSUE IS POLITICAL. "This game has to be played on government level
otherwise no way to wring concessions from the IMF. It is political game."
Kocsis Tamas is absolutely right. Yet, there are two important things
to mention. First, while one shares the impression that without Hungary
acting at a goverment level the IMF will not yield concessions, one could
to point out that a "compromise" with the IMF is not the only alternative
to the Hungarian nation (just as in 1956 the compromise that Hruschev
will replace hated Rakosi with less hated Gero or even less hated Imre Nagy
was NOT the only alternative for a humiliated, bitterly oppressed nation).
Hungary could also say "It is not true that Hungary needs more the IMF than
the IMF needs Hungary. The Nation [majority of individuals] are of the
opinion that Hungary needs the IMF less than she needs a hole in the head!
Good bye, IMF/WorldBank, write off your loan, think more carefully when
next time you invest in Floods, Earthquakes or Communism". While such
a view is even more radical than Dr. Endrey's proposition (and certainly
is not in the same league with my debt-REDUCTION negotiations years ago!)
I predict that with each passing day of sabotaging a solution, with $10
Million extricated DAILY from the collapsing economy/society of a tiny
nation, "you ain't seen nothing yet" when it comes to "radicalism" of
the already deranged masses.  Moreover, IMF will never "compromise", just
as your "negotiation-partner" in a Turkish bazaar will never lower his
price, if you cannot at any time just "walk away".

Second, it is truly sad for Hungary, that at present there is no room for
any force on her political palette that would even consider, let alone attach
absolute priority to, self-interest of the nation. On the other hand, this
is exactly why a grass-root movement must confront ALL political forces
with the question "how they relate to the "Hungarian Revolt against Bankloan-
Slavery"?  We know already, that Horn (socialist, an understatement) passed
along, within a week, Dr. Endrey's letter to the Ministry of Finance
(liberal, also an understatement). Government-liberals behave very much
like ours here in the Hungary list; would like to drown the idea of a
"dangerous revolt" into silence or ridicule. (Until now; unlawful silence,
"irresponsibility"). Horn, just having been humiliated by the liberals,
(again) will never be permitted to go with Dr. Endrey (he knows this more
perhaps than you do) -- while the liberals would rather resort to Big Lie
("it is easy" for Hungary to carry the $30 debt), then loosen the screws
by which they can "privatize" the Power Grid and Health Service for them-
selves (after having "privatized" [better, "pocketized", practically every-
thing else).

Some of us remember 1956, before which (actually, after the death
of Stalin, a mere 3 years earlier) the ruling communist elite split into
"hardliners [Rakosi]" and "reform-communists [Nagy]". The two narrow
elite, however, forgot the "Force of the Third Kind" -- those masses who
picked up some grass root issues ("ruszkik haza": Russians go Home, and
"tiz evig eleg volt"; Had enough with ten years [of soviet communism]).
Once the spark very quickly turned into a bonfire, grassroot issues
escalated into a bloody antibolsevist revolution, the infighting elite
both wished they did not sabotage the inevitable for too long.

Today, after a mere 5 years of the death of Soviet communism, the ruling
socialist-liberal elite gangs are equally greedy and equally blind.

Too greedy to wake up that BOTH will loose, and too blind even to admit
that the grassroot revolt is already "on".

I am glad that Greg asked the question concerning living standards because
lately I have read quite a few articles in the Hungarian press which leads me
to believe that reports of falling living standards is not quite accurate.

Let me start with the difficulties of getting reliable data. The black/grey
economy is so enormous in Hungary that the official statistics don't tell the
whole story. A few years ago, economists estimated that the grey/black
economy in Hungary constituted about one-third of the GNP. Lately they have
been people who claim that this figure is actually low--that the real figures
are even higher than that. So, every time we see some official statistics, we
might as well add at least one-third of that figure to the official one.

On the whole the press gives a picture of a country of half-starved masses
and a few millionaires who made their money illegally. But let's see some
other, rather telling, statistics. The September 2 issue of HVG (a respected
economic weekly) published several articles on the theme of major appliances
and other electronic devices used in the homes: televisions, freezers,
automatic washing machines, microwaves, video cameras, receivers, CD players,
electric sewing machines, PCs, etc. etc. One would assume that people whose
living standards have been steadily falling since 1989 or so, would not be
able to afford these items. And now, hold your breath! In 1985 half (50%) of
Hhungarian households were without any of these items. Today only 15-18%!

Or let's take another example. Electricity. The press and the man on the
street are full of horror stories about people freezing to death. Of course,
it is true, that some of the older folks with very low pensions are in big
trouble. The pensions are not going up as fast as the cost of electricity.
Some people from Hungary claim that the price of electricity is becoming so
high that their whole salary is spent on electricity. So, one would think
that if the population finds it hard to pay their electric bills, it would
try to use less of it. But, surprise! The consumption of electricity has been
steadily going up for decades, including the *last five years.* (See an
article in the "Biznisz" section of the September 5 issue of *168 ora,* a
political weekly.)

And finally, in the Op-Ed page of the same issue of the same weekly, there is
a fascinating article by Tamas Sarkozi, with the English title "Be Happy." Of
course, given the proverbial Hungarian pessimism this article, with its
title, flies in the face of the common "wisdom." What does Tamas Sarkozi have
to say about the Hungarian economy? First of all, Sarkozi, taking into
consideration the distortion of the grey\black economy, figures that two or
three million people (out of ten) live less well than before. There are maybe
half a million people who live under the proverty line. However, there is
another group about which one finds less in the media: about one and a half
million people who are now in the private sector who are doing much, much
better than before. Sarkozi objects to the kind of populist propaganda which
claims that the class of the nouveaux riches consists only a few hundred
individuals and these individuals made their money in a maffia-like fashion.
No, Sarkozi says, they made their money despite the different governments'
absolutely stupid economic policies. These people, says Sarkozi, learned
fast; they are resourceful; they are clever; they are hard working! The
Hungarian economy is not in trouble. The Hungarian state economy is in
trouble.

I think that Sarkozi is right. First of all, I received several letters from
Internet friends who had spent the summer in Hungary and they all reported
that the private sector is doing just fine. The problem is with the civil
servants: the teachers, the doctors, those employed by the administration. It
is not difficult to find a job in the private sector, if the individual is
well qualified. These jobs are even paid relatively well. And now let's
return to my statistics on electronic equipment and major appliances. The
statistics below are from 1993. They compare the households of people from
the private sector with households where the main provider works for the
non-private sector. The figures are percentages of households. The
differences are striking:

                                                Head of household's workplace
Kind of equipment
                                                private sector
  nonprivate sector


Color television                                     82.1                      
6
 9.4
Freezer                                      66.6                 56.6
Automatic washing machine                                    62.6
         37.5
Video camera                                         47.8                 30.4
Sewing machine (electric)                          40.7                 30.4
Hi-fi towers                                         24.0                 10.6
Microwave ovens                              23.5                 12.2
PC                                                   13.7                  5.6
Satellite dish                               11.3                  3.9


No question, people, who work in the private sector are doing a great deal
better than those, who work for the public sector. Unfortunately,
privatization was slow even during the administration of Mr. Antall, but the
Horn government's is really unspeakable. Nothing, but nothing happened since
last May, except the appointment of a privatization minister witout
portfolio, whose only remarkable achievement was to award Hungaroton (the
record company's archives actually) to a Hungarian company in spite of the
fact that the Hungarian firm offered a great deal less money than the
well-known Dutch company, PolyGramm.

Eva Balogh