Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Copyright (C) HIX
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Bosnia and economy (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: *** HUNGARY *** #133 (fwd) (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: B-H once again (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Csurka & Gingrich (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Illegal Immigration (mind)  67 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: B-H once again (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Bosnia and economy (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: EB (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
9 It is the national debt, stupid! (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Illegal Immigration (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
12 Dentistry in Hungary (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
13 Literature in English about Hungarian dog breeds (mind)  119 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Bosnia and economy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Andras,

Enjoyed reading your thoughts about the Balkans; I find your conclusions
a bit pessimistic...

Under no scenario can I imagine the division of Macedonia.  Border
'revisions' in the region might lead to total chaos not only in the Balkans,
but in the rest of Central and Eastern-Europe.

Romania may demand a part of Bulgaria, Hungary might try to settle
some scores with Slovakia and Romania, Austria  and Italy has a long
feud about Southern-Tirol etc..

No border changes, please...

Dear Eva,

It might sound arrogant, but the UK economy is hopeless.  The decline
started at the beginning of the century and it is still alive and well..

On the other hand, Milton Friedman's experiment in Chile worked and
even the confident  Jeff Sachs' 'shock-therapy' in Poland is turning
the economy around there....

Pushing the service industry + small business formation works !

+ - Re: *** HUNGARY *** #133 (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Just a question - do you think all the problems of NY state
would be solved if illegal workers are deported? I have the
feeling, that there are more important factors. It makes
me feel uncomfortable, that you take the idea of being
inhumane so lightly. Not every Hungarian left Hungary for
political reasons, and a lot of them had better standard of
living in Hungary than a lot of latin-americans...

+ - Re: B-H once again (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 30 Nov 1994 18:24:07 EST paul said:
>Concerning the second point, Hitler wanted all of Europe, but the Serbs want
>        what they consider their historic land.  I don't think the Serbs
>        could justify attacking another country, ie Hungary, Moldavia,
>        Montenegro, etc.

--Sorry to stick my non-Hungarian nose in again, but Joe Pannon is
correct (until revisionist history prevails).  At the time of Munich,
Hitler's argument was that he only wanted to restore Germany.  Hitler
took the Rhineland in 1936, a clear violation of the Versailles treaty.
Austria was annexed and Chamberlain traded away the Sudetenland at
Munich.  The invasion of Poland in 1939 was ostensibly to rescue
the large German population that had been isolated by the Polish
Corridor.  Finally, Britain and France acted.  Hitler then, technically,
fought a defensive war against Britain and France.  A. J. P. Taylor,
who was admittedly controversial, argued that there was no evidence
that Hitler had any original intention to get into a war with other
European powers, but believed he could restore traditional German
lands without serious interference.  Joe Pannon is right to see a
close parallel, but the Serbs are not the Germany of the 1930s, so
the scale is smaller.  But, who knows what might happen?
The West Europeans of today sound a lot like a bunch of Sam Hoares
and Neville Chamberlains to me, too.

+ - Re: Csurka & Gingrich (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

If they happy and don't harm anyone...
Would you be in favour of arranged marriages? They last long...
Lots of time nobody is happy... But it is so nice and lawful.
Try to live in this century, and be glad that people are more
free at least in a few respect and a few places, than before.
Laws can be stupid. Often there are no other choice but
to break them. e.g.  racist laws/recent and not so recent past.
You cannot improve morals by burocratic means.

> Would you be tolerant of poligamy?  Is wife/husband swapping ok?  I've konwn
> folks who get married just to see if it works out, but if not then they
> just simply get a divorce - no big deal.  Would you tolerate these things?
> You may not be able to make it illegal to get a divorce, but you can create
> a stigma with it that acts as a deterant, causing people to only do it in the
> most extereme cases, and not just as a convenience.  This is important since
> families are the foundation of every society.
> Paul
+ - Re: Illegal Immigration (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 30 Nov 1994 19:46:59 EST paul said:
>I was referring to the overused principle of human rights.  If you are willing
>to work, your pay for fulltime employment should at least support you
>at minimum levels of existance.

--I agree with this position, but my point was only that it isn't
presently a legal right, which you certainly recognize.

  To say that it is ok for there to be
>jobs in which people could not even provide themselves with a place to
>live is wrong, but I agree is not illegal.  This latter condition is
>created by allowing our poorest citizens to compete with people who
>come from countries to which we send foriegn aid, since their citizens
>live at what we can inhuman standards.  We thus create the same poverty
>situation among our workers, who must compete with people to whom
>indoor plumbing is a luxery.  That is barbaric, but not illegal. (God I'm
>sounding awfully liberal - I'd better check my temerature)
--Sorry.  I didn't mean to call YOU a L.  But I was reacting to the
same overused principle.  Our L friends have extended the idea of
rights well beyond its legal meanings.  Even Lee Iacocca, of all
people, did an ad in which he played on this principle.  I agree
that allowing illegals to take jobs at low wages impoverishes
American workers who would expect higher wages.  Unfortunately,
some people (evidently a lot of Democrats) are willing to exploit
this situation and use illegals as nannies without paying the
taxes required under the present system.

>>>No society can justify slave wages based on some cost effectiveness
>Also Charles, I used the term tennant farmer because of the image
>associated with it.  I know it is not always a bad deal for them,
>but using the image help clarify my point.
--Okay.  But using a weak example in an argument weakens the
argument because other debaters know that the point isn't
well-demonstrated by the example.

>The basic point I'm making is, that it doesn't make sense to have
>American workers competeing directly for many low paying jobs
>against people from countries with poor standards of living.

--Point well taken.  I agree.

        If you would allow the least common economic denominator
>worls wide to set wages, Americans would live like illegal
>aliens from Mexico and Bangledesh who work here, simply since
>those illegals would gladly live at a standard of living between
>that of the US and their home country.

--Again, agreed without a struggle.

                                                Instead of an
>American programmer making $40k-$60k, the illegal makes
>$10k-$30k, and that salary goes as far in India as it does in
>Hungary, so they are happy to live poorly for a few months.  Is this
>good for our economy?  No, since an unemployed worker cannot but
>a car nor a tv, right?  Pay rates should be set naturally
>within the US economy for people working here.

--No argument.  I don't think that we disagree at all.

+ - Re: B-H once again (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>        .... Hitler wanted all of Europe, but the Serbs want
>        what they consider their historic land.

                Hitler, at first, claimed to want only the Sudetenland,
Northern Bohemia, where there was a large German population.  He kept
assuring the rest of Europe that that was all he wanted.  When he didn't
just occupy the Sudetenland but indeed all of Czech., he promised that it
was the final territorial expansion, and the world believed him.  It wasn't
till he invaded Poland that the world starting taking him seriously.
        As for Serbian historical claims:  so what?  Almost all borders of
nations have shifted throughout history.  B-H also has a historical claim
to legitimacy through independent kingdoms, etc.  Historical legitimacy is
no longer, and never has been, an adequate method for deciding the borders
of a nation.  Should Hungary, Czech, SLovak, Croatia, N. Italy join Austria
because it once was historically "so?"  Or should Hungary, Serbia, Greece,
etc. be reincorperated in a renewed Turkish Empire?

>         I don't think the Serbs
>        could justify attacking another country, ie Hungary, Moldavia,
>        Montenegro, etc.

They did attack another country:  B-H.  Serbia is not the same state as
Yugoslavia.  Yugoslavia might have had a right to act in the role of
putting down a civil war, but Serbia is simply Serbia.  If the war in B-H
would had gone easier (ie. already over a year or two ago) then the Serbs
might well have felt the desire for further expansion.

French diplomat was overheard saying "Serbia has already won for all
purposes."  That doesn't sound like he's advocating bombing in order to
force Serbia to bargain.

                        Thomas Breed

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"
+ - Re: Bosnia and economy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> It might sound arrogant, but the UK economy is hopeless.  The decline
> started at the beginning of the century and it is still alive and well..
alive - perhaps, but well???

> On the other hand, Milton Friedman's experiment in Chile worked and
> even the confident  Jeff Sachs' 'shock-therapy' in Poland is turning
> the economy around there....
> Pushing the service industry + small business formation works !

For whom, and for how long?

Just a note: Turkey and Greece were the biggest arm-purchasers last
year. (Sold by those ardent peace-keepers) Any thoughts?

+ - Re: EB (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Date sent:  1-DEC-1994 08:38:17
>>"the serbs (srbi, as they call themselves) are a slavonic nation,
>>ethnically and by language the same as the croats (hrvati, horvati,
>>croati). the croats, however, are roman catholics and use the latin
>What about the Bosnian?  How are they related?

 they are also Slavonic.  Prehistorically, they probably predate the
srbi and croats (both of whom originate around N. Czech and S. Poland).
Part of the horde of invaders who joined forces with the Avars to harrass
the Byzantine EMpire.  Eventually Avar power was broken, and for a time
Byzantine power (Greek) replaced it in B-H and Serbia, Bulgaria, etc.
        The Byzantines were having problems converting the Slavs of B-H to
Christitianity.  Likewise, they were having problems with a heretical
movement to their East:  the Monophysites.  The monophysites believed that
it was WRONG to think of there being more than one body of God.  Because of
this, they later found Islam to be closer to their beliefs than CHristian.
THus:  the quick Islamification of the MIddle East.
        The Byzantines solved their two problems with one move:  force the
Monophysites to immigrate to B-H.  It backfired, since all the Bosnians
converted to the MOnophysite heresy.  This heresy lived on, spawining both
Bulgaria's Bogomil heresy and S. Frances Albegsinian heresy.  WHen the
Turks arrived in Bosnia, the Bosnians, like their Monophysite cousins in
the MIddle East, found Islam pretty darn close to their beliefs.  Thus they
        Anyhow, that's how they became Muslim.  All in all, the speak an
almost indentical language to the Croats and the Serbs, who also speak
almost identical languages.  The biggest dividing line in former-Yugo. is
the alphabet line.  ALphabets are related to religion, in that Croats, who
have a "Latin" Christianity use habet, while t use a hile the Serbs use a
modified Greek alphabet.  Maybe the whole "ethnic" issue is really a cover
what is really a religious war?

                        Thomas Breed

                "Like Prometheus still chained to that rock
                        In the midst of a free world"
+ - It is the national debt, stupid! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

One may find it not only amusing but quite telling that some
"experts" wonder about the reasons of "sluggish" economic
growth in Hungary.

Debt servicing takes out $3-4 Billion/year from an economy
which is a "third World" version of country with population
and size of the State of Ohio. There is no way that the
economy will ever crawl out from under this crushing mountain
of debt -- and those parading as "experts" without realizing
this simple fact appear no more than simple fools to my eye.

Of course, this mountain of debt was acquired (and wasted) under
communist Prime Ministers (interestingly, e.g. by the same name of
"George" Lazar), and under communist Finance Ministers (such as Mr.
Bekesi, who is back in his exact same post after the manipulated
"elections" this Spring). Thus, it should not be surprising that those
who were gravely mistaken at that time are mortally mistaken still.

The saying goes:"You can fool some of the people all of the time, or all
of the people some of the time, but you cannot fool all of the people
all of the time".  The "George Lazar" type liberals have fooled all of
the Hungarian people some of the time before 89, and some of the
time after May 1994.  However, just as Americans could only be
fooled by the liberals until a few weeks ago, when people dealt
liberals a crushing blow, Hungarians will similarly wake up -- much
sooner than most liberals of Hungary will be able to pack their loot
and flee here -- to enhance this list's already sizable liberal
+ - Re: Illegal Immigration (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Charles, one last point.  When I take a position, I judge subsequent
opinion of mine against previous ones to ensure consistance.  I
mention this since I must point out the following:

People have mentioned that food and other things would cost more if
the illegal workers were paid US wages.  Well,  so be it.  If current
prices are artificailly low - as we Americans pointed out they
were in the Soviet Union due to gov't subsidies - then prices should
be allow to rise to a fair, natural level.  I am willing to accept
the consequences to me caused by extending justice to the poor.

+ - Re: It is the national debt, stupid! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Forgive me if I misunderstand you, Pellio, but if you imply in your
message that there is any relationship between the Communist government
that ruled Hungary and the American left, you are sorely mistaken.
The American liberals that you refer to operate within a
market-orietned ideology and obey the rules of a democratic system.
Hungarian Communists, reformers included, operated from the framework
of Communist ideology- ideals of full employment, intra-Comecon
self-sufficiency, etc., and, most fundamentally, a desire to develop a
communist, egalitarian society.  None of these goals are part of the
political agenda of the American left.  In fact, the American "left" is
extraordinarily moderate when compared to left-wing socialist parties in

The second part of your argument, the suggestion that there is an analogy
to be drawn between the American left's culpability for the US national
debt and the Communist culpability for the Hungarian debt is also flawed.
First, American liberals are not the ones to held responsible for the
American debt.  The real fault lies in the steady growth of entitlements
in the American budget.  And if I want to be partisan, I would point to
the enormous Reagan-Bush increases in defense spending before I point to
anything else.  Moreover, the American debt, while troubling, is clearly
not an inhibitor to the American economy in the way that Eastern European
debts have been.

Second, it is unfair to characterize the Hungarian debt as being a
product of the Communist government's proclivity to impoverish the
Hungarian people.  In fact, the wide consensus is that the enormous loans
taken out into the 1970's as a result of easy petro-dollar credit were
used by the government to try and finance a kind of market-socialism in
Hungary- goulash communism- and also to bribe the people into
complacence about the illegitimacy of the regime.
Moreover, the policy decision to take out huge loans to finance growth
was by no means exclusive to Communists.  This policy was encouraged by
multilateral lendings agencies to developing countries all over the
world, regardless of regime type.


::Misha Cornes:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
::47 Pearl Street, No.2::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
::New Haven,CT 06511::::::::::::::::::::::::::::tel:(203):865-8011:::::::::
+ - Dentistry in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thomas Breed happened to mention dental care in the former Czechoslovakia. I
can assure him that the situation is no better in Hungary. I am convinced
that if I stayed in Hungary I would have no teeth left being one of those
people who mouth is full of cavities. My second experience with a dentist
took place when I was fourteen. It turned out that my front upper incisors
had cavities! They were filled all right, but my God, the circumstances! The
very best dentist in town used absolutely no Novocane--I don't know whether
you know or not, but especially the front incisors are extremely sensitive,
at least the first time around. It was an absolutely awful experience! What I
really found galling was that the destist met my mother on the street and
told her that I was just an awful patient because I jerked my head even
before he actually got to the teeth. Considering that I knew what was coming
I am not surprised! And it went on for days! Also, may I add that at least in
the 50s Hungarian dentists had not yet heard of cleaning teeth! Luckily I was
20 years old when I left Hungary and therefore I have a decent set of teeth
today. Mind you, unlike Hungarians living in Hungary, I go to the dentist
once a year.
Eva Balogh
+ - Literature in English about Hungarian dog breeds (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

A few weeks ago somebody from the US asked me whether I could help
 to find some literature in English about Hungarian dog breeds as she has a
 "kuvasz" (a Hungarian breed of sheep-dog) and would like to know
 more about Hungarian dog breeds.

 I found three book titles by the help of Hungarian librarians.
 As I suppose that there might be other people interested here follows the
 information about the books.

 Two of the books I found have been translated from Hungarian to English.

 All three books can be found in the Library of Congress Catalog.

 The Library of Congress catalog can be reached by

    telnet locis.loc.gov

 or by gopher.  Neither userid nor password is necessary to use the catalog.

 Now the data of the books as can be found in the Library of Congress

------------------- excerpts from the Catalog -----------------------


Sarkany, Pal.

Hungarian dog breeds / Pal Sarkany, Imre Ocsag ; [translation revised by
Kay White and Christina Molinari ; photographs by Jozsef Hudetz].  2nd., rev.
ed.  Budapest : Corvina, c1986.  215, [1] p. : ill. (some col.) ; 25 cm.

   LC CALL NUMBER: SF422.6.H9 S27 1986


      Dog breeds--Hungary.



      Ocsag, Imre.

      Sarkany, Pal. Dogs of Hungary.

   DEWEY DEC:  636.7/1/09439 dc20


      Rev. ed. of: Dogs of Hungary. 1977.
       Includes bibliographical references (p. 214-[216]).

   ISBN:  9631323021

     GEOG. AREA CODE:  e-hu---

      LCCN:  94-113884

> ------------------------------------------------------------------------


   Dangerfield, Stanley, 1911-

The international encyclopaedia of dogs; edited by Stanley Dangerfield and
Elsworth Howell.  London, Pelham, 1971.  479 p. illus. (some col.),
facsim. 29  cm.

   LC CALL NUMBER: SF422 .D28 1971c




      Howell, Elsworth S., joint author.

   DEWEY DEC:  636.7/003

   ISBN:  0720705290

     LCCN:  72-182043

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------

   Hajas, Jozsef.

   [Bobby-hobby. English]
   The new dog owner's handbook, by Joseph Hajas and Paul Sarkany.
   New York, Howell Book House, 1972.  251 p. (chiefly illus.) 22 cm.

   LC CALL NUMBER: SF427 .H21613




      Sarkany, Pal, joint author.

   DEWEY DEC:  636.7


      Translation of Bobby-hobby.

   ISBN:  0876057008

     LCCN:  70-177384 r83

-------------- end of Library of Congress Catalog data  ---------------

 Best regards

 Magda Zimanyi