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Megrendelés Lemondás
1 56, 42, etc. (mind)  81 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: List Behaviours (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
3 Hungarian Lobby (HL) (mind)  72 sor     (cikkei)
4 Hungarian-English dictionary (pictorial) (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Contacting Americans in Hungary (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
6 Privatisation of MVM Rt. (mind)  28 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Contacting Americans in Hungary (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
8 A bad parody? (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
9 Forradalom/szabadsagharc (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Info Ferihegy - Keleti p.u./ Nyugati p.u. (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
11 Revolution/counterrevolution (mind)  34 sor     (cikkei)
12 This is citation what Kornai wrote himself (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)

+ - 56, 42, etc. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Felado :  [United States]
> Temakor: it was a mirror ( 8 sor )
Will get a reply when (and if) the existence of an actual person other than
Andra1s Pellionisz hiding behind yet another login is demonstrated. See ya'

> Felado : Pannon Jozsef
> Temakor: Re: Forradalom/szabadsagharc ( 29 sor )
> [...] Anyway, I thought about '56 again, and I think it started out as a
> revolution (or uprising, if you will) and it actually won in the sense
> that the people accepted the new Nagy Imre government.

> So much so, that normal life was to resume on Monday, November 5.

> When the Russians attacked on the 4th, they were attacking a legit
> government and the resistance to that attack -- however brief and
> sparse -- can legitimately be called "szabadsagharc".
Yes. If there was a "szabadsa1gharc", it was *exactly* this brief and
sparse phase. My point was (and remains) that it was too brief and too
sparse to be called a szabadsa1gharc, but I fully accepted the point
(made at the time by Zolta1n Szabo1) that given more time, it might well
have developed into a full-fledged szabadsa1gharc.

> It was then no longer a revolution, or uprising, in my opinion.  It
> was a defensive war against an agressor.
Yes. If only it were more substantive!

> Joe
Can't believe my eyes, after all this acrimony, Joe Pannon, of all
people, saying effectively the same thing? What is the world coming
to? Well I shouldn't worry too much, as his next posting makes clear:

> Felado : Pannon Jozsef
> Temakor: Re: 56 and sickness ( 21 sor )
> I wonder how this got here from Kornai:
> >Back in 1991/92 the whole issue was triggered by the insufferable
> >posturing of another fellow ultrarightist and avid defender of the war
> >criminal Ba1rdossy.
> Could you elaborate on this a bit?  Who are you talking about?
It's all there in FORUM 461, check it out. Since you were a regular
poster at the time (with three posts in that particular issue) I
wonder what makes you share Andra1s Pellionisz' desperation to replay
the same old debates? So let's dispose of the Ba1rdossy issue:

> Not believing in Bardossy being a war criminal equates to being an
> ultrarightist?

As prime minister Ba1rdossy was responsible for: (a) openly racist
legislation (harmadik zsido1to2rve1ny) (b) deportation and massacre of
Jews (Hungarian citizens) at Kamenec-Podolsk (c) massacre of civilians
(mostly Serbs) at Backa (d) declaring war on the Soviet Union (e)
declaring war on the United States. Perhaps (d) and (e) don't make him
a war criminal, I'm not going to argue this. (I would argue that these
acts bespeak of remarkably weak judgement, an almost pathetic lack of
a sense of proportion, but that's no capital crime.) But (a-c)
did make him a war criminal, big time.

> Your post facto wisdom about it is nothing more than Monday morning
> quarterbacking.

Once again, it's not the declarations of war, its the racist laws and
the atrocities. How can you conveniently forget the moral abyss to
which Hungary sunk under Ba1rdossy's leadership (similar atrocities
were not seen before or after his government, at least not until the
German invasion)? What makes you think he was *not* a war criminal?
He was convicted as such, and executed. FORUM had a debate on whether
by hanging or by fireing squad, but really, who cares?

> Felado :  [United States]
> Obvious bad parody a capital offense?
Bad parody, yes, obviously bad. But not obviously a parody: it was
all in quotes, just as if it were taken straight from me. As for
capital offense, not as far as I'm concerned. It's a free internet,
and if "Ja1nos" can't even get his act together to the extent of
showing his face, it's really his problem.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Re: List Behaviours (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Prof. Agnew writes:

>  ... the list is currently structured so that anyone who cares to can
> post to it without being a subscriber.  I frankly have no idea what would
> be the effect on the connections through HIX or bit.listserv.hungary
> for me to alter the list parameters so that one would have to be subscribed
> in order to post.  But if the kind of mindless, scurrilous postings as
> those recently arriving from AOL continue, I would be moved to make that
> change, or even go over to full moderation.

The effect of throwing the software switch that would allow only subscribers
to post would be nil.  Everyone could continue to read the list directly via
the listserv, Usenet, HIXmail, HIXweb, or whatever.  Everyone could continue
to post directly through the listserv, or via the reply/follow-up facilities
of HIX or Usenet.  Those who desire to post to the list would have to mail
two one-line messages to >.  The first one should say

   SUB HUNGARY your_name_here

and the second should turn off mail like so:


Having sent these two messages, everything would go on as before.  Everyone
could post to their heart's content using their favorite method.  Posters
of scurrilous or defamatory messages can lose their posting privileges; all
the list owner would have to do is to delete them from the subscriber list.
They could continue to read the list via HIX or Usenet, but attempts to
post to the list would fail with nasty error messages.

In the case of sites with virtual users breeding like rabbits, each of the
newborn users would have to send the above two messages before they can
grace the list with their postings.  This would give the list owner some
notice of what is coming, in case evasive action is necessary.  People who
take advantage of free trial accounts at AOL to spam the list and disappear
into the digital mist before they could be traced would have a little harder
time of it.  But I'm sure the diabolically clever and pathologically prolific
Dr Pellionisz will think of a way to keep up his Protean act.  Now that he
does not have a scientific career to worry about any more, he has plenty of
time on his hands...

Gabor Fencsik

+ - Hungarian Lobby (HL) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Colleagues,

My main purpose is to wish you and all the members of HL a very happy Thanks
Giving. When, surrounded by your family, you give thanks for the blessings of
the past year, please think for a moment of our larger family, think of the
villages (where Bartok collected his folk tunes) who's schools and churches
are under attack, and promise, that next year we will try to protect them.

Just a few items of news: Yesterday, USA Today published Dr. Simon's letter
on the conditions in Romania. Also, the weekly titled Budapest Week reported
on HL, on our methods and our goals.

Sadly, an unfortunate event also occured: As the representative of the German
minority tried to demonstrate, that in the Hungarian Parliament, one is free
to speak in his mother's tongue, representative Torgyan objected.
Fortunately, the majority of the deputies understood, that cultural tolerance
is a two-way street and he was allowed to complete his speech.

While in the last weeks, the efforts of HL concentrated on using political
pressure and on influencing public opinion through the media to protect the
cultural group rights of minorities, I have received many letters, which
suggested the use of other means. I am attaching one such letter, so that we
all can think about these issues, as we formulate our plans for 1996.

Wishing you a very happy Thanks Giving: Bela Liptak

Subj:   Slovakian insanity and "cure"
Date:   95-11-20 20:39:52 EST
From:    (Tony and Celia Becker)

My mother, after long political and economic experience that was not always
humane, developed the motto "grab them by the wallets, the minds,
hearts--and the balls--will all follow."

Accordingly, besides bringing this situation (Slovakia's latest attempt at
genocide of the Hungarians) to the attention of the State Department (I have
"yellow books), and a few key people, who have access to high leaders of
various sorts, I have also contacted a couple of venture capitalists whom I
know to have interests in East Central Europe. One is a Hungarian American.
I advised them that the potential for various types of social instability,
affecting labor, markets, etc. can be quite high when 30+% of the population
is being severely persecuted by the still-communist-facist mentality
remainder and that this means very risky business ventures.  I strongly
recommended they suspending their building of an industrial park in
Slovakia, and that they advise the rest of the venture capitalists, etc.
that they know of this situation and recommendation.   Since the Hungarian
American venture capitalist is also a former freedom fighter, I believe this
all will be done. I also immediately ceased my own efforts to help another
person develop a joint venture in Slovakia.

Many other Hungarian Americans--and other sympathetic East Central Europeans
are older people whom have risen in professional careers.  They also are
undoubtedly acquainted with bankers, venture capitalists, directors of
companies who are considering new subsidiaries and joint ventures, etc..
The word needs to get out that not only are professional, often highly
placed East Central Europeans are urging no investments, loans, etc. to
Slovakia until they not only cease and desist the latest genocidal ideas,
but begin a formal national re-education program similar to what the best
U.S. police forces require for "ethnic sensitivity training."   Moreover, it
has to be understood, by credible action, that Hungarians will withdraw both
personal and business funds from banks that hold loans and investments in

Let's bring all the racist, ethnically/religiously prejudiced genocidal
tyrants down--those in front and those behind them!

Respectfully and sincerely,

Cecilia L. Fa'bos-Becker, Michael's grand-daughter--and proud of it!
+ - Hungarian-English dictionary (pictorial) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Would like to call to your attention (readers are always looking for
There is a new Oxford-Duden Pictorial Hungarian-English Dictionary
out (c. 1994).  ISBN 0-19-844511-2, $ 55.00.  Similar in arrangement
to the Duden pictorial dictionaries and arranged by the Akademaia
Kiado and Oxford University Press.  Received a good review from T.M.
Racz, Eastern Michigan University in Choice, Oct. 95, p. 271.

+ - Re: Contacting Americans in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Bela Batkay writes:

>> The problem is when you stay longer and speak Hungarian, but were
>>not born in Hungary.  My experience is that Hungrians are simply non-
>>plussed in dealing with such people.  To say that they are suspicious is
>>not, I think, going too far.  In particular, a longer stay--say, of 3
>>months--and in a provincial city--say, Debrecen--brings one smack up
>>against the closed nature of Hungarian society in general, and provincial
>>Hungarian society in particular.  This was not only my experience, but
>>that of other Hungarians not from Debrecen.

Maybe so. But my wife spent 6 months in Budapest, picked up a lot of
friends, with whom we still keep the connection, and had a wonderful time.
She was there without me. She was born in Canada. Not of hungarian descent,
with a real bad hungarian, not young, but very out going. (Picks up friends
easily). This does not disprove Bela's statement, but there are different

+ - Privatisation of MVM Rt. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In the (London) Financial Times,Virginia Marsh reports from Budapest:
"The most ambitious attempt to date at utility privatisation in the former
Soviet bloc got under way yesterday with the deadline for bids for majority
stakes in Hungary's five regional gas distribution companies (GDCs).A second
tender for electricity utility MVM,the country's second-largest company,
closes in nine days.The sale represent the greatest opportunity to date for
western utilities to buy into the east Europian energy sector. They will be
able to establish a strategic foothold in what is expected to be the conti-
nent's fastest growing region over the next decade.On offer are stakes of 50
per cent plus one vote in the five GDCs,which together had fixed assets of
Ft.68.3bn ($516m) at the end of last year. APV Rt.the privatisation body,is
being advised on the gas sales by N.M.Rothschild,the UK merchant bank.
MVM,which last year had revenues of Ft164.3bn and assets of Ft682.0bn,is
being split up and privatised in 14 units.A stake of 24 per cent is being
offered in the core company,which will retain the national grid and Paks,
Hungary's Soviet-designed nuclear plant.Stakes of between 34 per cent and
49.7 per cent are being sold in 13 non-nuclear power generation and supply
companies.The electricity and GDC sales have attracted interest from several
of Europe's largest energy companies.British Gas,Gaz de France,Austria's OMV
and Ruhrgas,Bayernwerk,PreussenElectra and RWE of Germany participated in the
22 bids entered in yesterday's GDC tenders.
The German electricity utilities have also purchased information memoranda
for MVM companies,as have some 20 other international companies including
Electricite de France,Southern Electric of US and UK companies
PowerGen,Eastern Group, Midland Electric and National Power.The only company
that is not expected to attract several bids is the core MVM company,due to
its nuclear component."
(typed in by Laci Toth)
+ - Re: Contacting Americans in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sandor's reporting of his wife's experience in Budapest was most interesting.
Among the other thing that seems to set my experience apart is that even the
few Hungarians in Debrecen with whom I thought I had become friendly have
most definitely *not* kept up contact, despite having access to E-mail.

Their reason are uniform, and fall into one of only two categories: 1)"I
just don't have any time, I'm so busy," and the like; or 2)"I just don't

But I emphasize again that non-Debrecen born Hungarians have had similar ex-
periences, so this may be a peculiarity of living on the frontier of the unde-
veloped part of Asia, and Budapest may well nurture different values and be-

+ - A bad parody? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


>Obvious bad parody a capital offense?

No, if it were just a bad parody, but it is not. It is an attack on Andras
Kornai's person.

Eva Balogh
+ - Forradalom/szabadsagharc (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Pannon writes:

>No doubt it was a popular uprising, a revolt, a revolution -- the
>criteria for applying these terms are met. I'm not happy with
>"ne1pfelkele1s" because it was a watered-down compromise offered by a
>self-promoting communist honcho (one who proved his lasting
>unpopularity through two elections now) but at least it's
>descriptively correct. However, the juxtaposition "forradalom e1s
>szabadsa1gharc" does bring 1848-9 into mind, and precisely the sense
>of "szabadsa1gharc", namely "war of independence" that I objected to
>all along.  As far as the other sense of "szabadsa1gharc", namely
>"fight for freedom" is concerned, 1956 was obviously that.

You have restored my faith in rational discourse. I think we can all live
with this definition.

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Info Ferihegy - Keleti p.u./ Nyugati p.u. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>From Keleti Pu., and may be also from Nyugati Pu., exist the so called
"Rail Bus". It's a minibus or Taxi shuttle for 700.- Ft to anywhere in the
town. They pick up several people at the some time. It's the easiest way
and not so expencieve than a taxi. (Do never use a privat taxi : very
>From Ferihegy exist also a Mini-Bus system for 800.- Ft. to any place.

Please keep in mind that there in Budapest Ferihegy I and Ferihegy II.
Terminal II for most international flights, Ferihegy I mostly russian
airlines, if i'm right.
Think about transport time is about one hour.

Best regards

+ - Revolution/counterrevolution (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Durant:

>It depends how you define the words, revolution, freedom fight,
>etc.  For the same reason I cannot call the "velvet" changes
>revolutions. They brought independence and changed
>the system, but they did not create  "new" systems, that never
>has been before in these countries.

You have an odd interpretation of the word "revolution." According to the
dictionary any "fundamental change in political organization, esp.: the
overthrow or renunciation of one government or ruler and the substitution of
another government" is a revolution. A revolution therefore doesn't have to
introduce an entirely new, hitherto nonexistent order. I am afraid, your
thinking on the subject is influenced by the Marxist interpretation, i.e.,
according to the Magyar Ertelmezo Szotar, published in 1972, the first
meaning of "forradalom/revolution" is: "Osztalytarsadalomban az elavult
tarsadalmi es gazdasagi rendnek az elnyomott osztalyok altal valo (fegyveres)
megdontese, es uj, fejlettebb, halado rendnek a letrehozasa." Only the second
meaning--following the foreign usage--talks about simple "gyokeres
atalakulas, fordulat," "fundamental change." That is, the Marxist
interpretation includes the notion that the new order is "more advanced, and
more progressive" than the previous one. Hence one can take the next step to
"counterrevolution/ellenforradalom," or according to the same dictionary: "A
reakcios eroknek a megdontott rendszer visszallitasat celzo folkelese." Is
that what you have in mind?

Also, it is obvious from the above that a revolution doesn't necessarily have
to be accompanied by an armed uprising. The revolution of 1848, for example,
was entirely peaceful and yet brought about a total change in the political
order: from absolutism to the establishment of a responsible ministry and a
parliamentary system. Thus, the velvet revolution is certainly a revolution
just as the English Glorious Revolution of 1689 was a revolution.

Eva Balogh
+ - This is citation what Kornai wrote himself (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kornai wrote into forum #63. It is in the forum archives. In the 6.line from
the end Kornai wrote that "as a jewish person should I tolerate".

Felado    : 
Beerkezett: Thu Nov  1 08:08:57 EST 1990
Temakor   : Becsbe Csoorival
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
 ..Aki leirja hogy a zsidok es a magyarok kozott a szellemi-lelki
osszefonodas lehetosege megszunt, az jobb esetben tomeges kitoloncolasra
biztat, rosszabb esetben pogromra.  Ha lenne egy birosag ami emberellenes
bunokert (mint pl faji uszitas) bunteteseket szabhat ki, akkor Csoorit ilyen
birosag ele kene allitani. En ugy gondolom hogy ez a birosag elitelne
Csoorit, es hogy a szamuzetes melto buntetes lenne.  Egy csendes polgari
lakas a Karl Lugerringen -- mit monjak, mashova is kivanhatnam...

Mert felreertes ne essek, Csoori Sandor fasiszta. Nem a szo
erzelmileg tuldimenzionalt, kiterjesztett ertelmeben, hanem
szukebb ertelemben. Naci. Fajvedo. Teljesen mindegy hogy kozben milyen jo
kolto.  Aki ezeket a dolgokat amiket Csoori leir le meri irni az fasiszta.
 Engem nem erdekel hogy csak ket
paragrafusra lehet nyiltan ramutatni hogy ez kerem rasszizmus, mert a dolog
nagyonis beleillik mindannak a logikajaba amirol a cikk tobbi reszeben van
szo. Amikor Esterhazy (szokasahoz hiven ertelmes, vilagos es emberi
meltosagtol sulyos) hozzaszolasaban azt mondta hogy olyan allapont mint
Csoorie nem letezhet akkor en azt mondom hogy letezhet, letezik, sot neve is
van: fajgyulolet.

Hogy Csoori tollat nem csak a nemzetert erzett aggodalom hanem egyben kemeny
antiszemitizmus is vezeti azt mar korabban is sikerult nyelvi elemzessel
bemutatnom. De most mar nem kell a nyelvi elemzes: itt van feheren feketen
mindenki lathatja. Fasiszta. Nem kicsit fasiszta mint ahogy egy no se lehet
kicsit terhes. Fasiszta. Tudom, nem kell tulreagalni. A szamuzetesi javaslat
nem tulreagalas, hanem eppen a higgadt mertektartas jele. Amikor Csoorit
olvasom, a gyomrom gorcsbe randul, a pofamon osszeszukul a bor a felelemtol
es a megalaztatastol: mint zsido turjem szo nelkul hogy ez a naci meg akar
fosztani a magyarsagomtol? Hat fosszak meg inkabb ot, erezze hogy milyen az.
Amig kepes vagyok az o (megengedem, nem kulonosebben veresszaju) fasiszta
gazembersegen ironizalni es egy-ket "szereny javaslat"-tal eloallni addig nem
sikerult lerantania a
sajat szintjere.

Kornai Andras"
    ^   Kornai wrote this whole thing not me. (Janos Kiss)