In reply to your message of "Thu, 29 Sep 94 22: 50:50 CDT."
             >
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 94 21:45:27 -0700
From: 

Charles writes:

> --This was the comment that started it all.  And for those who came in
> late...Please read it very carefully.  I said that I did not agree with
> Smith, didn't I?

Yes you did. Yet you defend his rationale. And you favor progressive taxes--
which I think tends to make for a distinction without a difference.  You will
note I was only attacking the rationale, not progressive taxation.

> --The point was that you didn't like my argument

No, I'm afraid the point is you clumsily insult people who disagree with you.

Rest assured your points were both good and original, in the Johnsonian sense.

--Greg

In reply to your message of "Thu, 29 Sep 94 23: 14:14 CDT."
             >
Date: Thu, 29 Sep 94 21:59:55 -0700
From: 

Charles writes:

> >Something tending to show that a marginal rich person actually increases
> >government expenditure more than a marginal not-rich person
> >(in either absolute or relative terms) would be ideal.  :-)
> >
> --Wealthy farmers get high subsidies for not farming.  Marginal farmers
> do not.

I'm sorry but I don't see how any of your data establish the case that a
marginal rich person actually increases
government expenditure more than a marginal not-rich person
(in either absolute or relative terms).

I'm not trying to establish the contrary; but a laundry list of spending
is just not going to close my mind on the subject.


--Greg

On Thu, 29 Sep 1994 21:45:28 -0700 Greg Grose said:
>In reply to your message of "Thu, 29 Sep 94 22: 50:50 CDT."
>             >
>Date: Thu, 29 Sep 94 21:45:27 -0700
>From: 
>
>No, I'm afraid the point is you clumsily insult people who disagree with you.
>
--I apologize.  I thought you would recognize the Senor Wencez bit.
"Easy for you" his hand puppet would say, "But difficult for me! (since
he was only a hand puppet).

Charles writes:

> --I apologize.

In which case all is forgiven and forgotten.

Let's talk about whether it's possible to drink a liter of Aszu1 at
a banquet.  :-)

I'd say it's not *that* difficult.

--Greg

Please take me off the list.  Thank you!
Regards,  Gabor

Joe Pannon writes:
> Indeed, I recognize the name now.  His first name may have been Laszlo.
> That rings most familiar, but I would not bet on it.  Considering that
> Kornai almost called me a liar for mentioning the story without
> recalling the name, I take Kornai's revelation as a veiled apology. ;-)
La1szlo1 it is. Why do I have to apologize for your memory lapses is
unclear, but if you prefer it that way, I hereby publicly apologize for
Joe's imperfect powers of recollection:-)

> Unfortunately, Kornai could not stop at that and introduced another
> misinformation:
>> is known as politically neutral (neither MSZP/SZDSZ nor MDF/MIEP) and as a
>> journalist he is best known for promoting Edward Teller's ideas in Hungary.
What's the misinformation here? He is said to be neutral by conservatives
and liberals alike.

>> Just as a curiousity, Zelei wrote books together with another journalist
>> named Gazso1, and at least one of these books (I haven't read the others)
>> concludes with an extensive quotation from a newspaper article by guess who?
>> our very own Joe Pannon! So it seems there is a bit of private feud between
>> these guys, maybe a once warm professional relationship gone sour, or just
>> the opposite, Joe couldn't recall Zelei's name because he wanted to cover up
>> for an old pal, it doesn't really matter one way or another.
> Well, it matters to me because I don't have the faintest what the heck
> you are talking about, Janos!
My name's Andra1s, but you can call me Ja1nos (you've called me worse
things). I again apologize for your failing memory:-)

> I certainly don't know either of those
> journalists and I don't know what newspaper article you are talking
> about unless it's from one of the electronic (HIX?) forums.  Or perhaps from
> the newsletter of our Seattle area Hungarian-American Association?
> Let's have some quotes from that article allegedly written by me, shall
> we?  The "author" would like to know about it.
The article in question is over 5 printed pages, much too long to type in.
It is from Nemzeto3r (Tibor Tollas' emigre paper in Munich) dated October 15
1988, and it is signed Pannon. It is entitled "Bolse vita budapesten" and it
deals with the evils of communism. If it wasn't you Joe, at least now you
learn about another Pannon who obviously thinks and writes much like you.

> I don't think I've branded Zelei himself as a Party hack, have I?
I had a hard drive crash and I'm still in the middle of the restore,
but I will try to find out one way or another.

> BTW, Kornai, did you notice how the issue of a new constitution's been
> embraced by the new coalition now?  With almost the same arguments as
> some of us "right wingers" used to promote the idea on the Hungarian
> language HIX FORUM.  Isn't that ironic?
No I didn't. I actually went to an SZDSZ meeting advertised as "ko2zo2s
to2prenge1s e1s ko2tetlen eszmecsere" where a number of coryphaei (Peto3,
Magyar, Demszky) and prominent SZDSZ types (Eo3rsi, TGM, Konra1d, Jancso1,
Bro1dy Ja1nos) did as advertised, and the issue didn't even come up. The big
debate was about the upcoming local elections, with side-debates on
Besze1lo3 (this is how I know SZDSZ doesn't want to bail it out), on
Csu1cs/Na1hlik, on marijuana, on the advisors (Medgyesi in particular),
stuff like that.

The position emerging on marijuana might be of some interest to the readers
of HUNGARY: it appears that SZDSZ takes its role as a popular party
(ne1ppa1rt) very seriously. Magyar and Peto3 stressed it repeatedly that
they are not the party of the 12,000 who subscribes to Besze1lo3 but of the
1,200,000 who voted for them. Therefore, they do *not* want to champion a
cause that is relevant only for students, intellectuals, and "the 12,000"
and they particularly don't want their first major legislative efforts to be
devoted to a marginal issue. SZDSZ does not have, and will not have, an
official stance on the matter, and it was clear that the leadership was
somewhat miffed at Konra1d. The upshot was "nem ta1mogatjuk, csak szi1vjuk"
(we don't support it just smoke it).

As for Greg's question, U1j Demokrata is edited by Andra1s Bencsik of Pesti
Hi1rlap fame, published by "Nemzeti Korona Lap-, Ko2nyvkiado1, Kereskedelmi
e1s Szolga1ltato1 Kft" while Respublika is edited by Ga1bor Thurzo1 (if I
remember correctly -- I didn't bring it with me). The former looks like a
low-budget enterprise, the latter looks as if there was serious money behind
it, but of course appearences can be deceptive. U1j Demokrata is serializing
Sudoplatov's "Special Tasks" but neglects to mention that the book's more
startling claims (especially about Bohr, Oppenheimer, Fermi, and Szila1rd)
don't seem to stand up against closer scrutiny -- not such a great start for
a paper supposedly striving for greater objectivity.

E1va Balogh writes:
> I am getting the impression that the new directors of MTV and MR are most
> reluctant to relinquish some of the channels and frequencies they are using
> currently.
I think this impression is 100% correct, they are defending their "zsiros
buli".  Moreover, it is not only the presidents: these presidents are
insiders and they have the support of the rank and file.  Political parties
(on both sides) are extremely reluctant to confront this -- the only party
that came out for radical privatization was Fidesz and look what happened to
their press...

Word has it that TV's channel 2 will be "privatised" by the Nap-TV crowd.
This is, for all intents and purposes, the exact same thing that happened in
every other sphere: a group of insiders walks away with a piece of former
state property. Just on the anecdotal side, back in 90 we had a big debate
with my brother what this was: on my view, this is "privatiza1cio1" and on
his view this is "lopa1s". So let me ask the following question: what is to
be done? I'm particularly interested in hearing the opinion of the more
patriotically inclined who maintain that Hungarian buyers are always to be
preferred to foreign buyers.  Here, as in almost any sphere I can think of,
it requires a great deal of insider knowledge to assess the hidden costs and
benefits, and to simply know what works and what doesn't. It has been
demonstrated over and over again that the best bid comes from the inside:
unless backed by serious capital, outsider teams tend to burn themselves.

The Hungarian bidders don't have the capital (except for the insider team
that has the "intellectual capital" or know-how that compensates for the
lack of actual capital) and the foreign bidders are, well, foreign. So here
is channel 2 -- you can give it to a pre-existing "family" or you can give
it to Berlusconi (who some years ago was eager to buy) or Mark Palmer (who
has some capital but no expertise). And by selling it to a foreign investor
you still can't eliminate the "families" because any buyer with a minimum of
intelligence (and you don't get to be a major investor without some brains)
will make its peace with a major "family".

Needless to say, by the term "family" I don't imply any mafia-like activity:
all this talk about the Vitray- Chrudina1k- or Mester-families is just so
much stuff and nonsense. In reality, they are all one big, happy family,
just as in Hollywood.

Andra1s Kornai

On Fri, 30 Sep 1994 06:01:58 -0700 > said:
>
>
--I promise never to try to be clever on E-mail again.

>I'd say it's not *that* difficult.
>
Easy for you.  Difficult for me.

Charles

Kornai finally responded:

> La1szlo1 it is. Why do I have to apologize for your memory lapses is
> unclear, but if you prefer it that way, I hereby publicly apologize for
> Joe's imperfect powers of recollection:-)

Do you realize how ridiculous you are by faulting somebody not recalling
an obscure name like Zelei?  Haven't you met anybody who had a hard time
remembering names or phone numbers? Besides, the story was important,
not the name and I've got that right, haven't I?

> >> is known as politically neutral (neither MSZP/SZDSZ nor MDF/MIEP) and as a
> >> journalist he is best known for promoting Edward Teller's ideas in Hungary
.
> What's the misinformation here? He is said to be neutral by conservatives
> and liberals alike.

That was about the following stuff:

> >> Just as a curiousity, Zelei wrote books together with another journalist
> >> named Gazso1, and at least one of these books (I haven't read the others)
> >> concludes with an extensive quotation from a newspaper article by guess
 who?
> >> our very own Joe Pannon! So it seems there is a bit of private feud betwee
n
> >> these guys, maybe a once warm professional relationship gone sour, or just
> >> the opposite, Joe couldn't recall Zelei's name because he wanted to cover
 up
> >> for an old pal, it doesn't really matter one way or another.
> > Well, it matters to me because I don't have the faintest what the heck
> > you are talking about, Janos!
> My name's Andra1s, but you can call me Ja1nos (you've called me worse
> things). I again apologize for your failing memory:-)

You see what I mean about remembering names?  But blame Eva for that
because before I wrote that I read some big praises of your dad from
her. ;-)

Anyway, let's get to the main issue:
>
> The article in question is over 5 printed pages, much too long to type in.
> It is from Nemzeto3r (Tibor Tollas' emigre paper in Munich) dated October 15
> 1988, and it is signed Pannon. It is entitled "Bolse vita budapesten" and it
> deals with the evils of communism. If it wasn't you Joe, at least now you
> learn about another Pannon who obviously thinks and writes much like you.

Well, I was afraid that might be the key to your smear of me.  For I
rememeber those "Pannon" articles quite vividly from Nemzetor as I've
been a long time subscriber to the paper.  Those articles painted an
insider's portrait of the Kadar regime's ruling elite.  A few years ago
the paper revealed the identity of the "Pannon" pseudonym, upon his
death.  As you can expect, I don't recall the REAL name then revealed,
but he was also an insider, I think high in the military or police
establishment.
So, you see, the "Pannon" name is a total coincidence and apparently
a favorite pseudonym for I've seen it used on other occasions as well.
I let you figure out the moral of this story, Andras, without testing
your pride any further.

> > I don't think I've branded Zelei himself as a Party hack, have I?
> I had a hard drive crash and I'm still in the middle of the restore,
> but I will try to find out one way or another.

Don't bother; from his behavior I may have called him that though I am
no longer sure.  It doesn't really matter, because compared to his deeds
there down under, the party hack title would be a compliament.
>
> > BTW, Kornai, did you notice how the issue of a new constitution's been
> > embraced by the new coalition now?  With almost the same arguments as
> > some of us "right wingers" used to promote the idea on the Hungarian
> > language HIX FORUM.  Isn't that ironic?
> No I didn't. I actually went to an SZDSZ meeting advertised as "ko2zo2s
> to2prenge1s e1s ko2tetlen eszmecsere" where a number of coryphaei (Peto3,
> Magyar, Demszky) and prominent SZDSZ types (Eo3rsi, TGM, Konra1d, Jancso1,
> Bro1dy Ja1nos) did as advertised, and the issue didn't even come up.

That may be so, but in the first weeks of my stay there (second half of
August) it was quite often covered in the media (besides the
EuroWoodstock).  I am surprised how you don't remember this.  I guess
it's time to bring this up on the Hungarian language HIX FORUM as well.

> The position emerging on marijuana might be of some interest to the readers
> of HUNGARY: it appears that SZDSZ takes its role as a popular party
> (ne1ppa1rt) very seriously.

SZDSZ as a popular party?  That's an interesting proposition.  We'll see
how long that popularity will last as the screw is turned on even more
on the Hungarian taxpayers just to squeeze out those billions for foreign
bankers who so prudently lent their money to dictatorships right and
left in the past.

> it, but of course appearences can be deceptive. U1j Demokrata is serializing
> Sudoplatov's "Special Tasks" but neglects to mention that the book's more
> startling claims (especially about Bohr, Oppenheimer, Fermi, and Szila1rd)
> don't seem to stand up against closer scrutiny -- not such a great start for
> a paper supposedly striving for greater objectivity.

Well, there still are those who doubt the guilt of the Rosenbergs and
Alger Hiss as well.  I wouldn't be surprised if Sudoplatov's doubters
come from the same circles.  I haven't seen any more serious refutations
than ones that can be easily attributed to not remembering distant events
in minor details.  Oh, but I forgot that Andras has a dim view of people
not having perfect recall.
>
> I think this impression is 100% correct, they are defending their "zsiros
> buli".  Moreover, it is not only the presidents: these presidents are
> insiders and they have the support of the rank and file.  Political parties
> (on both sides) are extremely reluctant to confront this -- the only party
> that came out for radical privatization was Fidesz and look what happened to
> their press...

Why are they so worried?  After all who ever would buy the station would
need experts to run it and where would they come from if not from the
same crowd that works now for the state?  Or are we seeing the indirect
acknowledgment on their part that a private owner could not afford the
kind of overstaffing that exists now at MTV and thus many of them would
not find a job there after privatization?

> This is, for all intents and purposes, the exact same thing that happened in
> every other sphere: a group of insiders walks away with a piece of former
> state property. Just on the anecdotal side, back in 90 we had a big debate
> with my brother what this was: on my view, this is "privatiza1cio1" and on
> his view this is "lopa1s".

Your brother is right.  Insider deals tend to be sweetheart deals more
than when an outsider comes in.  However, that outsider could still be a
Hungarian, no?  Or at least a joint venture ...

Joe Pannon

Joe Pannon writes:

> > > BTW, Kornai, did you notice how the issue of a new constitution's been
> > > embraced by the new coalition now?
> > No I didn't.
> That may be so, but in the first weeks of my stay there (second half of
> August) it was quite often covered

Please to clue us in on the changes the new coalition is (or isn't) embracing.

--Greg

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> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--