The Hungarian Tourism Service, the official promotion agency of the
Hungarian Tourist Board is proud to announce its presence on the
Internet. Everyone with World-Wide Web access can get information
about Hungary by pointing to

             ------------------------------------
              http://www.hungary.com/tourinform/
             ------------------------------------

at any time, day or night.

Gyorgy Szekely
Director
Hungarian Tourism Service
>

I am a Hungarian American college student looking for a scholarship
specifically geared for Hungarian student who want to or are already
attending an accredited American college or university.
        I have been unsuccessfully searching for such a scholarship. If you
have any suggestions on starting a scholarship fund for Hungarian students
or information on such scholarships, it would be appreciated.

                                                        Thanks,
                                                        K.Juhasz

> >Romania
> >Population: 23,181,415 (July 1994 est.)
> >Ethnic divisions: Romanian 89.1%, Hungarian 8.9%
> >
> >
> >Calculator (/usr/openwin/bin/calctool)
> >says:
> >
> >23181415 * 0.089 =~ 2.063 mil.
> >
> >Other sources are welcome.
> >
>
> 100 - 89.1 - 8.9 = 98
> 23181415 * 0.02 = 463,628 other minorities in Romania.
> That's ludicrous. There are more gypsies than this, not considering
> Turks, Armenians, Germans, Ukrainians etc...
>
> Constantin Donea
>

Constantin, read what I posted about deliberate choice of nationality. If
someone is given the choice, they will usually choose what is considered
to be the most advantageous. A good example of this has occurred with the
former Soviet Union, minorities literally coming out of the walls. Sever
underreporting of Ukranians in Ukraine because they didn't speak the
language or thought they would be persecuted because of the nationality
they claim. It is very possible the GErmans (many of whom have already
left for Germany) and Ukranians have been assimiliated enough to not give
a damn about their status and claim Romanian ethnicity. I don't think
this explains the shortfall you expect in other minorities, but it could
be start for discussion.

I agree with you, I think the figure of 2.5 million is high, but then I
would say Romanian official stats probably underestimate the numbers as
well. It is in the state's interest to look homogenous as possible.

Darren Purcell
Department of Geography
Florida State University

I can't believe that none of you know the words to the Hungarian national
anthem and szozat!  or at least the general gyst of these two documents!  Is
this the wrong discussion group to ask?  I have seen people asking about
Hungarian food, geneologies, travel suggestions, etc... so it isn't just a
forum for arguing about Transylvania and 1956.  Nobody knows what the debt
per capita is up to either?  Or the unemployment rate?  Geez, I had more
faith in you all.  (yes, this message is trying to exert light pressure on
somebody who might know these things to reply.  If you have replied and it
was on the day, Friday, when my system crashed and took all my mail files with
it then I apologize for my teasing and would really appreciate it if you
could send it again to my personal account:  ).  Thank you!

Of course Darren is right that no census on ethnicity is entirely
trustworthy: they usual undercount the minorities. He is also right about the
futility of arguing about the numbers. On the other hand, I would like to
establish the fact that the quoted numbers are based on the last Romanian
census. I don't think that they counted the dead among the living, and I
don't think that they falsified their figures in favor of the Hungarians.
Moreover, the quoted figures are exactly the same as those of other sources I
consulted: *The Universal Almanac,* an American publication and, surprise,
surprise, a Hungarian publication of an older vintage: *Tenyek konyve '88*
also gives very similar numbers. So, all in all, I am satisfied that the
statistics are more or less accurate. What I am surprised about that our
Romanian internetters seem to be so misinformed about important statistics
concerning their own country's population.

Eva Balogh

I read in two different sources (Internet "Hirmondo," Sept. 20, 1995 and *168
ora," (Sept. 19) that Mr. Csurka is planning to organize an uprising on
October 23, 1995 in the name of the "intimidated and humiliated masses,"
because "it would be incredible naivete to believe" that "1998 will be our
year." Meaning, of course, the far-right. Why not? Because the people are
frightened and "the opposition parties are divided and financially ruined."
Thus, by democratic means there is no chance of changing the regime. There
is, according to him, only one way: taking to the streets, rising up against
the existing order. That is, if I understand him correctly, to take power by
undemocratic means. And that act is announced in the name of October 23 for
the anniversary of October 23. I am disgusted. If anyone discredits the
Hungarian Revolution of October 23, it is Mr. Csurka and the far-right. Shame
on them!

Eva Balogh

On the 7th of September 1995, Dr. Anthony Endrey (lawyer, citizen and
resident of Hungary) officially filed the first of his lawsuits in his
claim of negligent damages that IMF and its officials inflicted on Hungary
and her citizens. Dr. Endrey had issued a "Press Release" about this intent
prior to his filing. Because of a tide of international interest in this
matter, well informed sources confirm that Dr. Endrey has already acted
upon his lawsuits.

First-hand information in this news item can be obtained at Dr. vitez
Anthony Endrey, Hungary, H-6800 Hodmezovasarhely, Rudnay Street 2,
Tel/Fax 36-62-342-959. Also, a "Proclamation of Support" has been issued
for the media and sent (written in the English language) to Ambassadors
stationed in Budapest. Some well known supporters of Dr. Endrey in Hungary
include Zsolt Zetenyi, lawyer, Erzsebet Gidai and Sandor Kopatsy
economists, Imre Makovecz, architect.

[news reference posted by: Dr. Andras J. Pellionisz, fax in USA 408-746-2765.
Dr. Endrey's supporters, regardless of their citizenship or national origin
could e-mail/fax their name, occupation, mailing address, citizenship and
whether their data are public or strictly confidential to either Dr. Endrey

or to AJP]

One final word on Marx, Marxism, socialism, democracy et al.

I said that I consider Marx as utopistic as any of his predecessors. Eva
Durant wanted to know why. Simply because socialism goes against the grain.
People are not(!!) equal. That, of course, doesn't mean that they are not
equal before the law. Of course, they are. That is one of the important
ingredients of democracy. But they are not equal in every other way. Some are
brighter than others; some of more ambitious than others; some of
harder-working than others; for some X is important while for some Y is
important. Some are outgoing and talkative while some are shy and quiet. Some
are generous, some are stingy, and one could go on and on. Socialism doesn't
take all these differences into consideration. And perhaps more important,
people are rarely motivated by common goals but rather by individual desires
and attainments. Also, people usually treat property which belongs "to all"
shabily. In fact, they look upon common property as belonging to no one.
People are greedy: if the workers could alone decide the fate of the profit
their factory produced, most of them would like to see that money directly
benefiting them. The would like to receive bonuses, or suggest the building a
vacation retreat instead. Such a management of a factory/firm would not be
considered judicious for economic growth.

Eva Durant keeps asking me specific refutations of every argument she brings
up. I can't do that simply because I find the whole laundry list unrealistic.
The whole thing is utopistic altogether.

Eva Balogh

 (Dan Pop) wrote:
>In >
 (Gyorgy Kovacs) writes:
>
>>In article >,
>>Constantin Donea > wrote:
>>>
>>>For God's sake, how many Hungarians live in Transylvania?? Soon there'll
>>>be like 25 million...
>>
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
>>May your words be the ones of a prophet! (A pro'fe'ta szo'ljon belo"led!)
>>Approximately 2.5 million recently.
>
>This must be _very_ recently, because in 1992, HDUR got about 7% of the
>votes, and 2.5 million is more than 10% of Romania's population.  Or,
>maybe, some Hungarians voted for PUNR...
>
>Dan
>--
>Dan Pop
>CERN, CN Division
>Email: 
>Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

You raise an interesting question, Dan.  Could it be that there were some
irregularities, disenfranchising, etc. going on during the elections?
Thanks for calling that possibility to our attention.

Charles Vamossy

 (Alen Docef) wrote:
>1994 CIA world factbook
>(http://www.odci.gov/cia/publications/94fact/country/199.html)
>says:
>
>Romania
>Population: 23,181,415 (July 1994 est.)
>Ethnic divisions: Romanian 89.1%, Hungarian 8.9%
>
>
>Calculator (/usr/openwin/bin/calctool)
>says:
>
>23181415 * 0.089 =~ 2.063 mil.
>
>Other sources are welcome.
>
>--
>
>Alen Docef
>
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>email:            Digital Signal Processing Laboratory
>Phone (W): (404) 894-4813     School of Electrical and Computer Engineering
>Phone (H): (404) 873-0285                   Georgia Institute of Technology
>FAX:       (404) 894-8363                       ECE Van Leer Building C-449
>WWW: http://www.ee.gatech.edu/users/alen        Atlanta, GA 30332-0250, USA
>---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Thanks, Alen for the facts...  Nevertheless, the Hungarian minority's
human rights concerns remain the same, wheather they number 2.5 or 2.0
million.  Tha basic problems remain the same.


Charles Vamossy

As their ad hominem attacks, big lies and pitiful attempts of debating
the real issues all backfire, as expected, there is the real danger of
loosing Fencsix & Burundistas from the list of Hungary. As they go down
in flame again and again [pofara eses] it is a real problem that the gang
might get discouraged. Since their service is of great assistance to the
cause of Dr. Endrey, please let us do all we can such that they keep up
the good work of drawing attention amidst a desperate attempt by liberal
media of trying to deny publicity to a swelling grassroot movement
towards a popular revolt.

As a consultant hired by the Hungarian Government in compliance with
World Bank regulations concerning the preparation of investment
and credit proposals, I may add a word of caution to the
initiators of this lawsuit.

It may very easily backfire.

During the 14 months study which I led, government officials and industry
representatives distinguished themselves by ignorance of the prevailing
conditions, indifference to the proposals being worked out and a deep
cynicism about the ability of the lendor (and consultants) to contribute or,
in fact, do anything useful except fork out money.

Other than suggestions to break for lunch, I do not recall a single positive
contribution coming OFFICIALLY from the Hungarian side.

The emphasis above is critical. Privately, I have found lower ranked
government officials and industry employees to be helpful, capable and
genuinely concerned. Many of their suggestions have been incorporated in our
final reports.

So when the day of reckoning comes and the records revealed, you should not
be surprised to find Hungary (i.e. its legal representatives at the time) in
the dock.

For wasting resources with their "we know better" attitude.

Too bad.

Radu Damian writes:

>If you want to "see" the real life over there, don't read the journals,
>go there. After that, you can speak about numbers, laws, regulations and
>especially who's right and wrong (if that can help).

This would make only sense if the Hungarians on this list were
advocating something different than HDUR.  I haven't seen that, frankly.
And HDUR is in Romania after all.

Joe Pannon

Kulfoldi Magyar Cserkeszszovetseg
P.O.Box 68
Garfield, NJ  07026   USA
























                                                               1995.augusztus
23.

Kedves Partfogonk!

Felevszazada immar, hogy elhallgattak a masodik vilaghaboru fegyverei.
A magyar menekultek sivar barakkjaiban kesedelem nelkul megindult a
fiatalok nevelese: 1945 nyaran Esensben megalakult az elso magyar
 cserkeszcsapat idegen foldon. Azota az elultetett mag terebelyes fava
novekedett. Emberi szemmel nezve otven ev nagy ido. Ez ev augusztusaban
kozponti cserkeszparkunkban szamvetest tartottunk.

                             Mit er a cserkesz, ha magyar?

Cserkeszetben felnevelt fiataljainkat (szamuk ma megkozeliti a 35 ezret)
gyakran faggattuk:  kik vagytok?  Valaszukbol mindig az derult ki, hogy
szulofoldjukhoz ragaszkodnak, de szuleiktol atadott es a cserkeszetben
elmenyszeruen megelt magyar kultura a magyarsaghoz koti oket. Szemely
azonossagi igazolvanyukat a szivukben hordjak. Tudatosan es szivesen
szolgaljak a magyarsag ugyet.

Altaluk jottek letre intezmenyeink: Cserkeszhazaink, cserkeszpark-
jaink, sajtonk es konyvkiadasunk, hetvegi es nyari iskolaink, magyar
erettsegi tanfolyamaink, neptanccsoportjaink, regostaboraink, a magas
kulturat atkozvetito Corvina taboraink...

A cserkeszetnek es a magyarsagnak egyarant neveltunk vezetoket.
Ennek koszonheto, hogy a nyugati magyarsag intezmenyeiben Buenos Airestol
Stockholmig es New Yorktol Sydney-ig mindenutt ott lathatok, ahol dolgozni
kell es aldozatos vezetokre van szukseg. Becslesek szerint Budapesten kozel
200 kulfoldi magyar cserkesz dolgozik, szamosan kozuluk igen jelentos
pozicioban.

A kommunizmus latszolagos bukasa utan feladatunk nem ert veget. Ma uj
Trianon veszelye fenyegeti ifjusagunkat, demokratikus maz leple
alatt. A Karpat-medenceben 3.5 millio magyart terelgetnek celtudatosan,
anyanyelvi korlatozasokkal, ijeszto uj oktatasi torvenyekkel, a nyelvetol
megfosztottak tarsadalmaba. Minden eszkozzel gatoljak a Felvidek, Karpatalja,

Erdely, Delvidek ifjusaganak megmaradasat. Nagyon sok a tenni es
aldozni valo.

Kerjuk ezert Partfogoinkat, hogy adomanyukkal tamogassak ez evi balunkat,
melynek jovedelme fokent a fenti celokat szolgalja.


A Kulfoldi Magyar Cserkeszszovetseg Nagy Tanacs neveben
Dr. Hoyos Janos      Nt.Dr. Bertalan Imre      Msgr.Dr. Henkey Karoly

On 24 Sep 1995, CHARLES VAMOSSY wrote:

>  (Dan Pop) wrote:
> >In >
 (Gyorgy Kovacs) writes:
> >
> >>In article >,
> >>Constantin Donea > wrote:
> >>>
> >>>For God's sake, how many Hungarians live in Transylvania?? Soon there'll
> >>>be like 25 million...
> >>
>
>>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
> >>May your words be the ones of a prophet! (A pro'fe'ta szo'ljon belo"led!)
> >>Approximately 2.5 million recently.
> >
> >This must be _very_ recently, because in 1992, HDUR got about 7% of the
> >votes, and 2.5 million is more than 10% of Romania's population.  Or,
> >maybe, some Hungarians voted for PUNR...
> >
> >Dan
> >--
> >Dan Pop
> >CERN, CN Division
> >Email: 
> >Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland
>
> You raise an interesting question, Dan.  Could it be that there were some
> irregularities, disenfranchising, etc. going on during the elections?
> Thanks for calling that possibility to our attention.
>
> Charles Vamossy
>
Very recently at Bucharest was released the result of the HDUR concerning
the "1.75 million magyar population in Transylvania". You can not have
more than 75% of the population with the right to go to vote, right ? So
even 7% is a lot.

The "romi", gypsy population is estimated at 1 - 1.5 million, nobody can
tell that with high precision, then the other communities at least 1.5 -
2 million people. Armenians, Greeks, Turks, Bulgarians, Jews,
Macedonians. So the calculations issuing the 2.5 million magyar
population is only a wish, as presented above in both languages but not
reality. Anyways, the numbers do not count but decisions taken based on
civilized, mature and responsible discussions. Pushing, forcing, hiding
the truth, overreacting in all international places will not help.

If you want to "see" the real life over there, don't read the journals,
go there. After that, you can speak about numbers, laws, regulations and
especially who's right and wrong (if that can help).

I am against any violence and pressure and I'm sure it can not help. No
conciliation is possible without mutual respect and you should not forget
that.


Radu Damian



>
>
>

---------- Originally,  wrote to PETROVICS OFNER
----------

Gabor Fencsik writes:

G> I wonder what's keeping Dr Pellionisz from
G> filing his famous lawsuit
G> against the IMF.

Dr. Endrey, cohort to Dr. P., has already filed the suit in NYC and
Wash.DC.  The case will be considered in December. The BIG LIE is that
in an interview with the editor of "Budapest Week," Endrey denies any
affiliation with the Smallholders.  At least Dr. P. admits he supports
Torgyan.

Laszlo Petrovics-Ofner



-------------------- End of quoted message --------------------




--- MOMS 3.0

Dear Friends,

I improlore you to read my eassay in "Budapest Week" this week
entitled "A Cry From The Street."  Dr. Pellionisz and Dr. Endrey are
both Smallholders who are publicising a major platform for Torgyan.  I
agree with Eva Balogh's recent statement that Torgyan possesses a real
and imminicable threat to Hungary.  SZDSZ, nor any other party is
sophisticated enough in using the internet for propaganda as the
Smallholders are.  They hold the key to the nation's fomenting heart
in seeking vengence and venting rancor on ANYONE, let this be IMF or
the World Bank.  But I am fearfull for minorities after the next
election --as Torgyan may win.  I can see the headlines --"Torgyan
whips opposition --set to bludgeon Gypsies, foreigners, and Jews."
Torgyan is not merely a "clown" as Hungarian Media now portrays him.
We must remember that he holds the key to the cleansing of the
Hungarian rancorous heart.  Hitler, too, was portrayed by the media in
the early 30's as a "clown."  To hold emotional responsivity in hand,
while twisting rational thought out of kilter is the pure making of
tyranny!

L. Pterovics-Ofner


--- MOMS 3.0