In article >, Alexander Bossy > wrote:
>
I wrote:

>: Of course, Vojvodina belongs to neither the Serbs, nor the Croats,
>: historically speaking.  It was part of Hungary until the end of WW I,
>: after which it was given to the Serb-Croat Kingdom (later called
>: Yugoslavia) by the peace diktat. So it was not given to either the Serbs
>: or Croats separately, but to both of them jointly.
>
Bossy's reply:
>
>	Does this mean that you ae putting a claim on Vojvodina as well 
>as on Transylvania?

Me again:

No.  It means that Vojvodina belongs to neither the Serbs, nor the Croats,
historically speaking.  It was part of Hungary until the end of WW I,
after which it was given to the Serb-Croat Kingdom (later called
Yugoslavia) by the peace diktat. So it was not given to either the Serbs
or Croats separately, but to both of them jointly.

Capiche?

>  How about Croatia as well, after all, it was a 
>Hungarian province in the Middle Ages, and what about Slovakia?

This just goes to show how little you know about history. 
The relation of Croatia to Hungary was about the same as Hungary's to
Austria.  Croatia was never considered integral part of Hungary and was
never treated as such.  Just like in the case of Austria and Hungary,
Croatia's crown was inherited by the Hungarian kings, way back in the
12th century. Then of course, when the Hungarian Crown was inherited by
the Habsburgs, Croatia also shared the same king through Hungary.

Slovakia, of course, was always an integral part of Hungarian Kingdom
and achived her first formally independent statehood only in this
century.  ... and I don't want to get here into another fruitless debate
about the Great Moravian Empire, which the Slovaks consider their
original state. 
u
>then, if you incorporate all of these territories with non-Hungarian 
>minorities will you resort to the "voluntary Magyarization" of 
>yesteryear?  No wonder your neighbors fear you, which is a shame since 
>most Hungarians don't have your revanchist views, and thus make good 
>neighbors.

I thought we were talking about history, i.e., how it was, not how it
will or should be.  But no matter what the subject, you can only think
one thing, right?  Well, if you want to continue your shadow boxing,
I am no game.  How is that for another revanchist view?

Joe

In article >, Dan Pop > wrote:
>
>The ones with a big mouth are the revanchists.  I have yet to see the
>others publically repudiating the views of Joe & Co.  Hence, their views
>are extrapolated to the others.
>
I guess they just don't know what to repudiate.  Why don't you point out
those things in my articles with actual quotes to help them out.
I can think of quite a few guys who would be eager to join you in
repudiating good ol' Joe. (BTW who are the "& Co."?)  But they need more 
help than just you saying that I am revanchist.  Talk is cheap, Danno! 

Joe

Hi,

I am the webmaster of @LA, a guide to sites of interest to those in the
Los Angeles area. We are trying to improve our Minority related links
section. If you know of any good sites with Hungarian-American related
information, please e-mail me (I won't have the time to check the
newsgroup for replies). I am especially interested in sites which also
relate in some way to Los Angeles (e.g. student associations, community
organizations). Your assistance will help publicize your groups. 

@LA now has over 1,000 links and is located at:

http://emporium.turnpike.net/A/atLA/index.htm

Thanks,
Paul Klose
Webmaster of @LA

 (Charles Gimon) wrote:
>
> Chicago ) wrote:
> : Is there a newsgroup where immigration and all its ramifications once a
> : person gets to the USA is discussed.
> : Thank you!
> 
> misc.immigration.usa
> --
>  *********************************************************************
>      Paranoia! Even Goya...                   
>        couldn't draw ya... --T. Pynchon       Minneapolis MN USA
>  *********************************************************************
>                    >>>Tour d'Ivoire: 612-425-0554<<<

I am computer consultant from Milwaukee Wisconsin, and I am very
interested in finding out, how my counter parts from the rest of
the world are conducting their business, wherever they are. 

I work with small businesses and I help them computerize and then
I help them maintain the equipment and the programs. 

I have been working for the same small firm for over ten years,
and in spite of the fact that the  nature of the business has
changed somewhat, it is still the same. 

I am an early adopter of the OS2 and for now I  am determined  to
stay with it, in spite of the "vapor  ware" campaign  put out  by
Microsoft. I have been very  successful in  solving problems  for
our clients, with the multi tasking in OS2. 

I wander how many of you are working with OS2, and I also  wander
what are your results.

I would appreciate any input.


Thank you all for the time to read this posting


Cforbes

 (Francis O Akenami) wrote: 
>Fellow netters, 
> 
>Can anyone who attended the Morrocan party give a testimony of how it 
>went. From my experience here,a  morrocan party is not safe for anyone 
>to attend. 
> 
>All the morrocans in Helsinki do is to fight, drink and smoke (all   
smokables). 
>They never hesitate to use knives and bottles. 
> 
>Is the Washington experience different? 
> 
>Oruogho. 
> 
 
 
 
 
 
WHERE IS THE PARTY DUDE, YOU GUYS MUST THROW SOME WILD AND CRAZY PARTIES. 
 
PARTY ON DUDE. 
 
 
Windfinder, 
 
from Los Angeles, CA. "surf's up, hang ten" I say...

In >  () writes:

>In article >, Dan Pop > wrote:
>>
>>The ones with a big mouth are the revanchists.  I have yet to see the
>>others publically repudiating the views of Joe & Co.  Hence, their views
>>are extrapolated to the others.
>>
>I guess they just don't know what to repudiate.  Why don't you point out
>those things in my articles with actual quotes to help them out.
>I can think of quite a few guys who would be eager to join you in
>repudiating good ol' Joe. (BTW who are the "& Co."?)  But they need more 
                            ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
How about the Hungarian National World Council and the American
Hungarian Congress?  If necessary, I can repost the "HUNGARIANS IN THE
WEST CALL FOR TRANSYLVANIAN SELF-DETERMINATION" document, submitted by
Hon. ROBERT K. DORNAN to the House of Representatives.

>help than just you saying that I am revanchist.  Talk is cheap, Danno! 
 
Yeah, especially your ramblings.

If memory serves (I don't keep archives of s.c.r) you were the one who
suggested, a couple of years ago, local referenda, in certain parts of
Transylvania, with the purpose of changing the borders, invoking as a
precedent similar referenda which changed the border between Austria
and Hungary, immediately after WWI.

Dan 
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

 (Charles Gimon) wrote:
>
> Chicago ) wrote:
> : Is there a newsgroup where immigration and all its ramifications once a
> : person gets to the USA is discussed.
> : Thank you!
> 
> misc.immigration.usa
> --
>  *********************************************************************
>      Paranoia! Even Goya...                   
>        couldn't draw ya... --T. Pynchon       Minneapolis MN USA
>  *********************************************************************
>                    >>>Tour d'Ivoire: 612-425-0554<<<

In article > CLARY Olivier,
 writes:
>Hungarian word order does not bear this particular meaning of designating
>which is the object, but it bears much more meaning than in English (see
>previous post)

Hmm, I don't agree. Those extra meanings come from the stress,
i believe. The different word order alone doesn't mean much,
without the stress those sentences has no extra meaning. Lets
go back our doggy:

These sentences have no extra meaning compared to the
English "The dog sees the man", without stress:
A kutya látja az embert. (the nearest translation)
Az embert a kutya latja. (normal Hungarian word order)
Az embert latja a kutya. (normal Hungarian word order)
Latja a kutya az embert. (this sentence is wrong without
stress. Ohne stress I would say: Nézi a kutya az embert')

Without stress the 'ember' is emphasized quite strongly
here, i think:
A kutya az embert látja.

Here, however with stressing either the 'kutya' or 'látja'
the natural emphasis can be easily shifted to these words..

Here the action 'latja' is emphasized, quite strongly (the action
first, the subject last):
Latja az embert a kutya.

Tamás

I am trying to find locations to write or other sources of info on
particular family's in Hungary. My family on my fathers side started
coming to USA in 1903 with the first brother George Opre. The Opre
family came from the town of Oros in the state or province of Szabolcs
Megye, Hungary. My Fathers mothers family came in approx 1893, the name
was Mayoros and we are not sure what part of hungary they came from. 
  Any info will be appreciated.


                                    John Opre
                                    

In article > T. Kocsis > writes
:
>These sentences have no extra meaning compared to the
>English "The dog sees the man", without stress:
>A kutya látja az embert. (the nearest translation)
>Az embert a kutya latja. (normal Hungarian word order)
>Az embert latja a kutya. (normal Hungarian word order)

Yes, stress is simple (stressed part always before predicate, in place of
an eventual preverb), let's restrict the discussion to unstressed sentences.

The extra meaning is to set what it is about (theme). Like in English
the difference between "The dog has seen the man" and "The man has been
seen by the dog".

You do not play dice: if you start with "Az embert...", you have a reason
for it. Same for choosing "...a kutya látja" instead of "...látja a kutya".
These are things that English cannot do, or not through word order, while
for instance spoken French works like Hungarian:
   Le chien, il a vu le gars qui voulait entrer, et...
   Le gars qui voulait entrer, le chien, il l'a vu, et...
   Le gars qui voulait entrer, le chien l'a vu, et...
[it seems that to make more sense, I changed the man into a burglar :-) ]

>Latja a kutya az embert. (this sentence is wrong without
>stress. Ohne stress I would say: Nézi a kutya az embert')

Probably because of the continuous character, you can say "Nézi, nézi..." -
it/he just watches it/him, for a long time - so this can be the core meaning
in itself, the rest "a kutya az embert" can come afterwards. But "Látja"
is a shorter action - it/he sees it/him, that's all. So if it comes first,
it can be only in a pattern of a sentence with stress at that place
(= it/he does see it/him). Let's have a look at this in spoken French:
   Il l'a vu, le chien, le gars qui voulait entrer, et...
   Il l'a bien regardé, le chien, le gars qui voulait entrer, et...
Yes, the first one is a bit strange: why would we say it this way?

-- Olivier

I'm a former electric power system professional who'd like to
learn something about the Hungarian power system.
Specifically, I'm interested in procedures and practices
surrounding the computer control systems for the power network.

Can anyone out there talk with me about this?
,X,q
Kosz:kVh szepen.

-- 
---------------------------|------------------------------------------------
Michael B. Holt            | The next time someone says to me
Richmond, Virginia         | "Do you see what I am saying?"
U. S. A.                   | I will eviscerate the one who is speaking. 
---------------------------|-------------------------------------------------

I am visiting Romania in July/August and hope to spend a week or so in Hungary.
Has anyone any caving contacts in Hungary ?

Nigel Whittington )

On 4 Jul 1995  wrote:

> No.  It means that Vojvodina belongs to neither the Serbs, nor the Croats,
> historically speaking.  It was part of Hungary until the end of WW I,
> after which it was given to the Serb-Croat Kingdom (later called
> Yugoslavia) by the peace diktat. So it was not given to either the Serbs
> or Croats separately, but to both of them jointly.
> Capiche?

Highly irrelevant neocolonialist verbiage.  The thing that matters, is that
Serbs are a majority in Vojvodina as well as in Kraina.

> The relation of Croatia to Hungary was about the same as Hungary's to
> Austria.  Croatia was never considered integral part of Hungary and was
> never treated as such.  Just like in the case of Austria and Hungary,
> Croatia's crown was inherited by the Hungarian kings, way back in the
> 12th century. 

'Inherited', what a sad euphemism ! Inherited by killing, burning, destroing
a peoples culture and imposing catolicism by force.  No better than all the
lame aspersions you cast upon the Serbs today. 

> Slovakia, of course, was always an integral part of Hungarian Kingdom
> and achived her first formally independent statehood only in this
> century.  ... and I don't want to get here into another fruitless debate
> about the Great Moravian Empire, which the Slovaks consider their
> original state. 

No doubt, 'inherited' by the Hungarian crown selflessly desiring to 'help'
the Slovaks with a better government.

> Well, if you want to continue your shadow boxing,
> I am no game.  How is that for another revanchist view?
> Joe
 
Right, you would just have to bleed to death, for revanchism is your 
blood ! You can't help it. As they say, if it looks like a revanchist, if it
walks like a revanchist and it squacks like a revanchist, it must be a 
revanchist !

m. cristian

Tisza Ensemble presents:

Special Concert & Tanchaz (Dance) w/ Me'ta Hungarian Folk Music Ensemble 
from Hungary, with guest artists: Be'la Halmos & Ka'lma'n Balogh

when: 		Wednesday July 19, 1995
		7:30 pm - 10:30 pm

where:		East Silver Spring Elementary School auditorium
		631 Silver Spring Avenue
		Silver Spring, MD 
		(off of Georgia Avenue in downtown Silver Spring)

admission:	$10

Join us for this very special event.  This is sure to be a great concert 
and dance.  (Please note: this event REPLACES the previously announced 
July 8, 1995 Tanchaz which was to be held at Starting Point Dance Studio 
in College Park, MD).

For further information, please contact Tisza Ensemble at (301) 847-1277.


Now more about Me'ta Hungarian Folk Music Ensemble w/ Special Guest 
Artists Be'la Halmos & Ka'lma'n Balogh

The Me'ta Folk Music Ensemble is one ot the best known musical groups in 
Hungary, Me'ta performs authentic as well as interpretive folk music.  
The Ensemble has toured throughout Europe and continues to be a major 
force in the folk music revival movement in Budapest.  Me'ta's primas is 
Bea'ta Salamon, the only female lead violinist and singer for any major 
folk group in Hungary.  The Ensemble has been awarded the coveted "Young 
Masters of Folk Art"  prize.  Me'ta's concert repertoire is always an 
exciting tapestry of traditional folk music from different regions of the 
Hungarian speaking territories and modern interpretations of traditional 
folklore.

Special guest artists enhance the versatility of Me'ta's first American Tour.

Be'la Halmos is a legendary performer and folk music researcher.  He was 
one of the founders of Hungarian folk music revival movement in the late 
1970's.  Ka'lma'n Balogh is simply the most amazing Hungarian cimbalom 
player today.  His previous visits to this continent garnered the highest 
critical acclaim.  Me'ta and Guests offer the most enjoyable experience for 
folk music enthusiasts.


Arpad Fabian Kovacs
Member of Tisza Ensemble, Inc.


--
WWW                : http://www.glue.umd.edu/~kovacs
personal email     : 

In article >,
Hermes  > wrote:
>
>The thing that matters, is that
>Serbs are a majority in Vojvodina as well as in Kraina.

That's probably true, but I was talking about Voivodina's history, not
about what is today.  But from what I know, you may be right about the
Serb majority there now.  Especially since the recent ethnic cleansing.
However, I suspect that even in Voivodina there are areas with local 
Croat majorities, just as those with Hungarian majorities.  
Of those regions with local Croat majorities that are bordering Croatia,
it would be reasonable to attach them to Croatia.  I suspect
that most Hungarians of Voivodina would also rather be citizens of
Croatia than Serbia.  Since Voivodina was not given specifically to
either Serbia or Croatia by international treaties, partition of 
Voivodina along ethnic lines seems to me justified after the collaps 
of Yugoslavia.  This would be in line with the principle of
self-determination, don't you think? 
>
>'Inherited', what a sad euphemism ! Inherited by killing, burning, destroing
>a peoples culture and imposing catolicism by force.  No better than all the
>lame aspersions you cast upon the Serbs today. 

First, to my knowledge the Croats were brought to the Roman branch of
Christianity before the Hungarians, or at least by the time their crown 
was inherited by the Hungarian crown.

Second, the personal union (through royal blood lines) was normal by the
standards of the contemporary feudal system.  So much so that to my
knowledge the legitimacy of Croatia's status within the Hungarian
kingdom was not challenged by the "international community" until the
fall of Austro-Hungarian Empire.  Your invocation of fighting words is
just so much BS I am used to from you. 
>
As to Slovakia ...

>No doubt, 'inherited' by the Hungarian crown selflessly desiring to 'help'
>the Slovaks with a better government.

Well, since there was no such thing as "Slovakia" on maps before the
20th century, your comment is just another of your nonsensical
ramblings.

>Right, you would just have to bleed to death, for revanchism is your 
>blood ! You can't help it. As they say, if it looks like a revanchist, if it
>walks like a revanchist and it squacks like a revanchist, it must be a 
>revanchist !

More of the same, with an additional dose of self-projection. 
(Well, along the lines: "we wanted to get Transylvania, so they must
want to get if from us, too."  Or: "We want to get back Bessarabia, so
they must be wanting to get back Transylvania.")

It might be an interesting project to study why Romanians go into these
fits whenever Hungarians want to set the historical record straight.
Or at least present their version of it.  Romanians, like their recent
protest over some Hungarian foreign ministry pamphlet shows, immediately
are assuming Hungarian revisionist aspirations from it.  I wouldn't be
surprised if such study would also conclude that these Romanian protests
are just another manifestation of self-projection.  After all, they
started their preparation for their grab for Transylvania with
historical justification, this is what Hungarians must be doing
whenever they talk about history.  It fits, doesn't it? 

Joe

Gyerekek, ahogy illik, Fradika bajnok lett es megnyerte a kupat is.
Nem tudom pontosan, vajon-e Pinter Attila meg minding jatszik a
Fradiban. Remelem valaki feltudja nekem sorolni a mai Fradi kezdo
11-set. Kosz.