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1 Christmas gift for you from Hung. Pronunciation Tutor (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Ba1rdossy (mind)  166 sor     (cikkei)
3 Hungarian Lobby (HL) (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Computing jobs in Hungary? (mind)  2 sor     (cikkei)
5 A response to Szalai (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Janos Somodi(e) (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
7 New Hungarian Homepage (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Tell Me More About Hungary (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
9 *** WARNING *** (mind)  114 sor     (cikkei)
10 Yanks (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Christmas gift for you from Hung. Pronunciation Tutor (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


My grandmother9s Hungarian Christmas cheesecake recipe is posted on the
Hungarian Pronunciation Tutor9s www site with our best wishes for the

Absolutely my favorite dessert!!

+ - Re: Ba1rdossy (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

There are two separate issues here: (1) was Ba1rdossy guilty of crimes
against humanity (2) did his trial establish this fact.  As to (2),
everybody seems to be in agreement: his was not an impartial trial, and it
established nothing to our satisfaction. E1va Balogh writes:

> The question is whether, to quote Peter, "he received a fair trial
> and a fair judgment" or not, and there seems to me enough evidence to say
> that he did not.
This is NOT the question, and it was not the question at any point. The
question was whether he was objectively guilty, not whether his guilt was
established in an objective manner. In fact, my main points of accusation
didn't recieve much discussion at the trial. Early on I used the example of
Al Capone, who was tried and convicted on an otherwise relatively leniently
treated matter, tax evasion. Arguably the same fate befell on Ba1rdossy: he
was convicted on a matter (declaration of war against the SU) which was not
his main crime, and in fact wouldn't even be considered a crime by European
standards. Al Capone was not convicted (or even tried) for murder and
racketeering, but of course the moral judgement of the world is not based on
his alleged (or even real) tax evasion.

So let's leave the trial alone (we all seem to be in agreement anyway),
and concentrate on the main issue, that of guilt. Once we establish that
he _was_ guilty, my "highly emotional" remarks come under a different
light: I'm simply saying "good riddance".

> Again, I must repeat: he was
> condemned to death for declaring war on the Soviet Union--something he didn't
> do, but even if he did, in civilized societies, one doesn't get hanged for
> war declarations. I think your insistence on this issue is misplaced.
Again, I must repeat: this is not the issue. We agree he was condemned for the
wrong thing. What I'm insisting on is not that he was fairly tried and
convicted, but rather that he was guilty of specific crimes (see below).

> Felado :  [United States]
> To recap, Andras Kornai, on 22 Nov 1995 writes
> >As prime minister, Bardossy was responsible for
> >
> >       a) openly racist legislation
> >       b) deportation and massacres of Jews (Hung. citizens) at
> >          Kamenec-Podolsk
> >       c) massacres of civilians (mostly Serbs) at Backa
OK, let's take them one by one. You write:

> Bardossy's role in the promulgation of racist legislation was not disputed.
I called the charge "self-evident", which reminds you of "Darness at Noon".
I think it's self-evident, obvious, clear from the historical record. Are
you ready to dispute the charge, or do you think it will be hard for me
to prove that he promulgated such legislation? I'll get to (b) and (c)
as we go along, but (a) is obviously true, isn't it?

> It was, however, pointed out to Andras that laws and practices
> of the same genre were widespread in the West at that time, and even
> much later, and politicians in those countries were not charged with
> alleged "war crimes"
One crime doesn't justify another. Besides, the Third Jewish Law went way
beyond anything anywhere else at the same time, except for nazi Germany
and perhaps fascist Italy (I'm not sure about the latter).

So let us turn to (b), Kamenets-Podolsk.
> It was pointed out to Andras that
>         (i)  the government in power then did not have a policy to
>              deport Hungarian citizens but rather, in response to
>              German pressure, showed the door to illegal aliens

"Showing them the door" is such a marvelous expression, isn't it? "Handing
them over to the SS", nah, you wouldn't want to say that, it sounds a bit
too reprehensible. At any rate, the facts are this.

b1) The "legal" target of the deportations were foreigners
b2) The actual targets were Orthodox Jews, whether they had papers or not
b3) A number of provably Hungarian citizens were swept up in the
deportations, some of them (possibly including the Jews of Putnok)
were saved from the SS at the last moment
b4) Observers with no Jewish background or sympathies found the measure was
carried out inhumanely, unjustly, and in a manner inimical to the rule of

I would like to see a specific refutation of these points. What I have seen
so far was the argument that Ba1rdossy was not directly responsible, inasmuch
as he didn't actually order the excesses. In that sense, he indeed wasn't
directly responsible. But he was directly responsible for (bb) not taking
preventive measures (bbb) not punishing the excesses. Again, I believe these
points to be self-evident, but I welcome any specific counterargument.

Finally, let us turn to (c), Backa.
>         (ii) the massacres in Bacska were not ordered or instigated
>              by Bardossy
Again, his sin was not that he ordered the massacre, but that he (cc)
didn't take preventive measures (as pointed out by Bajcsy-Zsilinszky
at the time) and (ccc) he didn't punish those directly responsible.
There was some discussion about (ccc) until I pointed out that Ka1llay
was the one who took this task upon himself, and E1va Balogh pointed
out that Horthy (or at least someone from his office) also has some
responsibility for (ccc). So I grant that this point is perhaps not
self-evident, yet it remains true.

So my accusations boil down to (a), for which we see direct responsibility,
(b), for which I see indirect responsibility (see points (bb) and (bbb)) and
(c), for which again I see indirect responsibility (cc and ccc).

> Accessible records indicate that those of Hungarian citizenship of
> Putnok, who were deported and subsequently murdered, suffered their fate
> not under Bardossy's tenure in office, but later, after the German
> invasion of Hungary in 1944. Kornai has not furnished sources to
> contradict this view.
You are missing the point. Whether the Putnok Jews were killed or not, they
were deported as far as Ko3ro2smezo3. This proves that Hungarian citizens
were also swept up in the deportations, irrespective of whether they were
turned back or not. What we are establishing here is (b3) and (b2). As for
(b1), an instruction from the Home Office dated July 31st forbids the
deportation of Hungarian citizens (but of course many were deported before
and even after, as the Slachta letter dated Aug 13 shows).

Both Braham and Slachta describe the general atmosphere of the deportations
as anarchic, and obviously a lot of scores were settled by the local
authorities. Are you claiming that all who were swept up were
non-Hungarians?  This would not hold water, as the Putnok case shows. Are
you actually claiming that all who were so swept up were lucky enough to be
turned back from Ko3ro2smezo3?  Perhaps matters at Ko3ro2smezo3 proceeded in
a highly organized and strictly legal fashion, in which everybody who had
documents or claimed to have such documents got a chance to return to their
place of origin and prove it? To quote from the same Slachta letter to Mrs.

"La1ttunk a1llampolga1rsa1gi okiratukat kezu2kben tarto1 embereket,
fe1lkaru1 hadirokkantat, alig csoszogo1 aggastya1nt, kantyaro1s kisgyermeket
ke1tnapi utaztata1s uta1n o1ra1kon keresztu2l a to2meggel eso3ben a nyilt
teherkocsin valo1 tova1bbsza1li1ta1sra va1rni. La1ttuk ezen szerencse1tlenek
gu1nyola1sa1ra fela1lli1tott akaszto1fa1t az a1lloma1son a rajta lo1go1
varju1val." [We have seen people still clutching their citizenshp papers, a
one-armed disabled soldier, an old man who could barely walk, a sick child,
waiting for ours in the rain with the crowd to be transported on uncovered
trucks. We have seen the gallows erected at the train station to mock these
unlucky people, with a hanged crow.]

> The testimony at the trial of Bardossy does not contain credible
> evidence as far as the culpability of Bardossy is concerned in ordering
> any massacres. Kornai was challenged to provide substantiation of his
> charges, see (c) above, but as yet has failed to do so.
This is again the same red herring. Ba1rdossy faild to act against the
atrocities before, during, and after they happened.

> That's just the point Andras! How could guilt or innocence be determined
> under such conditions? If it was a kangaroo court, as you state it, how
> could the defendant defend himself? What validity has a judgement
> rendered under such conditions?
None. My argument wasn't based on the trial's justness, it was based on the
accusations enumerated above.

> one wonders whether Stalinist political murder, as it was practiced in
> Hungary at the time, really decreased the evil in the world? I would
> argue that the opposite was the case.
Perhaps you are right. My point was not to endorse Stalinist political
murder, but rather that Ba1rdossy doesn't have my sympathy as a victim of
it, much the same way as Al Capone is not getting the sympathetic winks that
most tax-evaders get. I'm also not saying that the end justifies the means.
If Ba1rdossy dies in a car accident, that would have decreased the amount of
evil in the world just as well as his execution, perhaps even more, since
there is something evil about a rigged trial which would have been avoided.
This doesn't mean I approve of car accidents -- it means I approve of
Ba1rdossy's death. He was a singularly unethical person who, in a position
of great responsibility, caused grave damage to his country and his fellow
men. Good riddance.

Andra1s Kornai
+ - Hungarian Lobby (HL) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Colleauges,

I am glad to report that after our success at the New York Times, our letter
camgaign at the Economist in London has also succeeded: In today's issue,
there is an article, which lists most of our concerns. It is titled:
"Slovakia Madness."

Thanks a lot to all of you who sent E-Mails to the Economist. I would also
like to thank those who organized fax-campaigns (Obol Magyar Kulturkozpont,
Hungarian Club of Denver), those who mailed nearly 1000 letters (Odon
Sandor), the newspapers that supported our efforts (Nepszava, Kanadai
Magyarsag, Amerikai Magyar Hirlap.) I would also like to thank the leaders of
the Hungarian Coalition who organized in Washington an outstanding Conference
on Minority Rights, the Hungarian Human Rights Foundation and the National
Committee of Hungarians from Slovakia for their excellent publications. I
know, that together we will succeed.

Now the HL is functioning on all five continents. We have the E-Mail
addresses of most political leaders and newspapers. (If you ask for the
E-Mail addresses of your local politicians or newspapers, I will send them to
you.) We are ready for 1996, which is not only the 1100th anniversary of
Hungarian Statehood, not only the 40th anniversary of the 1956 Fight for
Freedom, but is also an election year in the United States. This time the 1.5
million voters of Hungarian origin must make their political strength felt.
It is up to all of us, to make that happen.

Therefore I ask you to take an active role in HL. Ask your friends and
relatives to send in their E-Mail addresses to join the HL. At the end of the
year, I will send the complete list  of the HL list to all our members. From
that point on, all of us will have an equal opportunity to reach all members
of the HL. We will all be able to initiate actions and formulate new and more
effective strategies. Your initiating more actions will be particularly
important in January/February, when I will be away, working on the Danube
problem in The Hague and in Budapest.

With best personal regards: Bela Liptak
+ - Re: Computing jobs in Hungary? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Does anyone know where to find out what computing job are available in
+ - A response to Szalai (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The one who's having trouble admitting he's wrong is you, Joe. I'm no
die-hard defender of capitalism myself. What I object to about radical
free-market capitalism and communism both is their insistence that
mankind's greatest role is as an economic being. That pays short shrift to
everything else that you or I do or are that makes us human. I think you
can see the results of that obsessive focus in the cruelties of the
Leninist-Stalinist system of the 20s and 30s and, say, Dickens London.
I'll be glad to debate this with you at length privately, but I think we
owe it to the folks on this list to try and stick to issues pertaining to

And as far as Comrade Durant goes, she can take her own lumps without your
interference. Her complete absence of wisdom abetted by a singular lack of
wit is matched only by your own. You swing wildly from one pole of
Canadian nationalism to quasi-Marxist internationalism in a very short
amount of time -- whatever it takes, I guess, to get a little rhetorical
traction for the anti-American junk you continue to insist on posting

I see you've abandoned your original thread about American troops in
Bosnia. Guess that flamebait just ran its course for you. Oh, and thanks
for overlooking my "patronizing tone" in a previous post. I just wish
everyone else on the list who raised hell with you about your first post
had overlooked your own transgressions in that regard.

Sam Stowe
+ - Re: Janos Somodi(e) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

My mother in Ireland is trying to supply more details - proper spelling is
Janos Somodi and daughter
Koti. I belive Janos worked at Lucas in Lancashire,England during the
1960s. (Not me. My typo error)

John McMahon
+ - New Hungarian Homepage (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Please, come and take a look at my homepage, I have lots of links. If
you have links that I don't have, please e-mail to me.
The URL is: htttp://www.cyberg8t.com/tools/kinga.html

Thank you for visiting,

       ,_ O
      /  //\,
        \>> |
+ - Re: Tell Me More About Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Jennifer,
  I'm glad for your interest in Hungary, but I don't necessarily agree
with your father's assessment of the country ("like going back in time").
There's much I could write (and have already written and can forward to
you) about the country, but if you really want to find out more about
where your heritage is, you should visit yourself.  Ask your cousin if you
can visit his or her family when he or she is back in Hungary.  It would
probably be very interesting for you.
  As for the current economic situation, etc., that remains to be seen.
Certainly, there is a ways to go before catching up with the "west."  If
you have money in Hungary, however, you can buy almost anything you want,
including Nike sneakers, fancy cosmetics, etc.  As for restrictions, I'm
not sure what it was like when your father was last there, but civil
rights and freedoms seem to be basically upheld.  One big difference I
noted was that unlike the US, Hungarian people always carry ID with them,
and must show it at the bank, when buying your bus pass, etc.
  If you want to know more about the young people in Hungary, or
specifically about teenagers (I don't know how old you are), let me know.
I was an English and French teacher in a Hungarian high school last year,
and my students still write to me all the time.  I'm going back to live in
Hungary again at the end of this month too.
  Glad for your interest in Magyarorszag!!
--Shannon Morris
+ - *** WARNING *** (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


The above warning label is not unlike that on bottles of toxic
substance, making sure that sellers have the right to sell a product
even if it is harmful but at the same time also satifsying the rights
of consumers to know that the product may be positively unhealthy.

Therefore, I feel as my moral responsibility, that as long as I am
permitted to use a list named "Hungary", I am obliged to post the
above "warning label" - just as the King of Danmark wore the Star of
David out of solidarity to the oppressed as long as he could/had to.

No, I of course don't deny Prof. Agnew's right to use censorship if
he apparently caves in to the extremist ("blue") wing. But yes, I do
express my opinion that, with all due respect to an American professor
who donates his time to issues concerning Hungary, he positively
harms not only himself and Americans (this is ultimately up to him
and to Americans), but also does grave disservice to Hungarians.

Although Prof. Agnew has decided to assume a new role, that of a "judge
of opinions", instead of his former quality of "space provider for
clash of opinions",I am not absolutely sure that Prof. Agnew actually
qualifies to be a judge of what is grave disservice to Hungarians and
what is not. For Hungary is (at least, in principle) a sovereign country
thus it is up for its citizens to decide what is, and what isn't.
I am not sure if Prof. Agnew is a citizen of Hungary, if he is
sufficiently familiar with Hungary and/or Hungarians, if he speaks the
language at all, or what qualifications he claims for his new role to
be the judge on permissibility of opinions for HUNGARY.

Should he lack e.g. a perspective on some extremely worrisome develop-
ments of today in Hungary, that his censorship mirrors with striking
similarity, I would like to help him by quoting some pages about dangers
of ("blue") media control, from a (hitherto in Hungary uncensored) book
written by a Hungarian (ISBN 963 650 190 4, pp. 241-243), appeared just
a couple of months ago. The author is Jeno Szatmari, whose grandfather
Lazar, son of Jewish rabbi Mor, was shot in a ghetto in the Holocaust.
For those who may possess even less qualifications to be the judge on
Hungarian issues and/or may not even read the language, a translation
to the English language will ensue at my earliest convenience.

[emphasis is CAPITALIZED in the original, my explanations are in square

"...Kende meg mosolyogva veregeti meg lelki vallaimat:
'Urasagodnak nagyon megfutott! Mast se hallok, mint hogy nagyon jokat ir,
elemez. A Kisfonok -marmint Gal [Gal Zoltan, Chairman of Parliament]- is
ezt hallotta Horntol [Horn Gyula, Prime Minister]. Ugyhogy [Gal] felker
egy talnulmany keszitesere mindarrol, amit esetleg nem tudunk az SZDSZ
vezetoirol.  Te meg ismersz par hangadot a 'kozepmezonybol'. Ez ezert is
fizetunk. Vallalod?'  Miert nem vallalnam? Ha egy fust alatt valami rosszat
irhatok a kedves jo kek fiukrol [blue media], akik a fel eletem tonkre-
tettek, hat orommel.  A tanulmany el is keszul. A gyokereknel kezdem: az
1967-69-es "balos" mozgalmaknal, a kozgazon es a bolcseszkaron, ahonnan
valoban a mai SZDSZ politikai elso vonalanak nagyobbik resze 'szarmazik'.
De hozzateszem: ez nem minden. Nemcsak ok voltak az alapitok kozott. Hanem
egy masik csoport is.  Zsido szarmazasuak, akik viszont sohasem ertettek
egyet a "balosokkal". Ok eleve mas cellal indultak.  Beepulve, besimulva a
hatalomba, azt maguknak, nehany szaz embernek megszerezni.  Es mikozben
magukat kifele a zsido identitas es onvedelem profetainak mutatjak, a
gyakorlatban ennek felszine alatt kulfoldi uzletbaratokkal oz orszag olyan
eladasaban erdekeltek, amely e par szaz, esetleg nehany ezer ember tartos
gazdasagi hatalmat biztositja.  Marxi ertelemben komprador buzsoaziakent,
azaz idegen penzugyi hatalmak helytartojaikent. Mert csak igy tudjak
biztositani, hogy nelkuluk, ellenukre
akkor se tortenhessen semmi, ha mar a zsidosag normalis 90 szazaleka is
hanyingert kap gusztustalan mohosaguk lattan.  Hozzajuk csatlakozott az a
'muveszi elit', amelynek tobbsege keptelen volt tomegigenyeknek megfelelni,
de "lilasagait" e csoport gazdasagi vedohatalma alatt 'kizarolagosan
sztarolt muveszette' tette, elsosorban Budapesten.  Ok a derekhad az
SZDSZ-ben. Es nekik mindegy, hogy a partot ki vezeti, annak hagyjak a
kamarillairanyitast eljatszani, aki az adott helyzetben az o nyugodt
ternyeresuket biztositja. Az ujsagokat, kozvelemeny-kutato intezeteket, egy
sor nagyvallalatot ok iranyitanak. Amikor Antallal kellett megallapodni,
Tolgyessyt toltak eloterbe, ha Hornnal kellett egyezseg, akkor Petot.
Petot, akit olthatatlan vagy fut az elso ember szerepere, es frusztraltsaga
eppen abbol ered, hogy tudja, ezt a magyar politikai milioben sohasem
teheti meg.  Es ezt csak egy uton tudja magaban kompenzalni: barki van a
kormanyfoi barsonyszekben, tamadja, tamadtatja.
Mivel most ez Hornnal szemben celszeru eljatszani, segitik ebben a derekhad
nagymoguljai.  Ha mas taktika lesz celszeru a tovabbi "leuralashoz", hat ot
is ejteni fogjak. Soros mester pedig hatalmas penzeivel a derekhadat
segiti. Mert neki tenyleg egy eladosodott, tonkrement orszag a jo tavlati
terjeszkedesehez, vagy ahhoz, hogy a nemzetgazdasagokat osszeomlaszto
devizamanipulacioi miatt a vilag minden komolyabb orszagabol menekulnie
kell majd, akkor eleg lesz a maradek vagyona ahhoz, hogy itt meg akar
kiraly is lehessen - a hatterben.  Mondjuk, az allamadossag felenek
kifizetese fejeben menedeket, vedelmet kapjon.  Egyszer. Talan.
        Nos, ebben az elemzo stilusban husz oldalt irtam Galnak [Gal Zoltan,
Chairman of Parliament]. Nemi marxista szakzsargonban, hogy konnyebben
ertse.  A reagalas, Kende kozvetitesevel: "Vegre egy ember, akinek stilusa
is van. Tud irni. Na persze, ez a szakmaja" (Magamban hozzatettem: meg
politologiai tudomanyokbol van a doktoratusa. Es az sem mindegy).
        Es meg egy "aprosag": tobbszor elmondtam a jelzett uraknak, hogy
mifelenk, a Klauzal ter, Dob utca tajan, de masutt is, ahol zsidok,
felzsidok laknak, lakunk, bizony terjed, de nagyon, egy aranymondas:
        Es ezert van az, hogy a pesti kiszsidoknak talan a tobbsege az
MSZP-re szavazott, es ezert van mar szinte minden partban nehany vezeto,
zsido szarmazasu szakerto.  Hogy ez tan megse tortenhessen meg. Es ezert
allt el a lelegzetem kesobb, a Flamenco [Hotel] elott, Revesz szavai utan.
Mert akkor tunt eloszor realisnak ez az irtozatos alom. Lazar nagyapam, az
emlekedre eskuszom, en megprobaltam most, e konyvvel, beleszolni."
+ - Yanks (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

So, have the Yanks arrived in Pecs yet?   What is the general feeling
about NATO using Southern Hungary as a Logistics base for Bosnia?