||Re: Honnan fog jonni a gaz? (mind)
|| 11 sor
||Re: 56 (mind)
|| 60 sor
||Ah, vilagos nekem, ahol a gz van! (mind)
|| 26 sor
||Re: anti-Semitism (mind)
|| 37 sor
||Action on the Slovak Language Law (mind)
|| 118 sor
||Privatization of MVM (mind)
|| 75 sor
||Honnan fog jonni a gaz? (mind)
|| 14 sor
|| 5 sor
||e-mail address search (mind)
|| 8 sor
||Re: Freedom fight and 1956 (mind)
|| 36 sor
||Re: e-mail address search (mind)
|| 14 sor
||HUNGARY About 75% info for godoi/Steve Slovak Rep. (mind)
|| 15 sor
||Hello I am new at this (mind)
|| 7 sor
||Re: anti-Semitism (mind)
|| 33 sor
|+ - ||Re: Honnan fog jonni a gaz? (mind)
>Leslie, I have not seen to many maps of showing large reserves of Natural
>gas in Hungary. Could clarify where this gas will come from? Russia,
>North Sea, Algeria?
Bio-gas, Darren, what else? Hungarians have a lot of it and it's high
time to put it to some good use instead of just generating a a lot of
|+ - ||Re: 56 (mind)
(Last night I sent out a message about 56, which seems to have fallen into
a net.hole. If it reappears, I apologize for the duplication. The wording
was different, but the content substantially the same.)
> Felado : [United States]
> ..no, not to me. It would not matter if I did not exist "as an actual
> person". (BTW: who does Kornai think write this letter if not "an actual
> person", an actually "living person"?)
I think Andra1s Pellionisz writes this stuff. Apparently he needs to create a
virtual supporter of his position.
> Felado : [Canada]
> 1. The term "freedom fighters" were used in the western press in 1956 and
> 1957. it is clearly associated in the mind of westerners and most historians
> with the revolution of 1956 in Hungary.
Yes it was and it is. I haven't suggested changing the term. There was a
revolution, and many heroic deeds were done.
> 2.There was plenty of military action between October 24 and October 26.
Indeed, there was a revolution. Why belabor this point? It has no bearing
on the question whether a war of independence has taken place.
> 3. Nobody have counted how many out of the 200,000 refugees were active
> during the revolution. I believe that their proportion is higher than those
> who stayed behind vs. ten million.
Very likely you are right. But it was *staying* that carried the risk, not
> 4. How do you measure "impact"? How do you measure the impact of 1956?
56 had tremendous impact on subsequent events, both inside Hungary and in the
larger world. I was talking about specific military impact. 200,000 people
can put up one helluva fight against any invader, if they want to. How many
days amd how many tanks did it take to drive Corvin Ko2z down? How many
armed people did Pongra1cz have, maybe 200?
> Life in Hungary was different after 1956. Why? The Hungarian communist right
> (munich, Revai etc) were defeated in 1957. The post-November resistance,
> including the work of the Workers Councils may have had theri impact.
Sure they have. Maybe bigger impact on the long run than a futile war
of independence would have had (though we will never know). Perhaps
avoiding a losing fight was a good thing. Just let's not pretend it
wasn't avoided by the body of the nation, that's all.
> 5. Sexist jokes do not help us understand 1956.
Applying 1995 standards to a 1945 joke can lead to bizarre results. As
a matter of fact the joke is not at all sexist, particularly as it is
the husband who is ridiculed for his "bravery". Of course it's up to
you whether you accept the analogy between post-invasion Hungary and
the husband who maintains he is very courageous yet avoids actual
> Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
Pe1ter, I really appreciate that you kept a civil tone. Belive me, it
is not my intention to detract from the glory of those who fought or
otherwise resisted Soviet domination. To the contrary, I firmly
believe that Mu2nnich's losing out and in general Hungary's relatively
more free status within the Soviet orbit can be directly attributed to
|+ - ||Ah, vilagos nekem, ahol a gz van! (mind)
> Darren wrote:
> >Leslie, I have not seen to many maps of showing large reserves of Natural
> >gas in Hungary. Could clarify where this gas will come from? Russia,
> >North Sea, Algeria?
> Bio-gas, Darren, what else? Hungarians have a lot of it and it's high
> time to put it to some good use instead of just generating a a lot of
> hot air.
I hope other people enjoyed this laugh as much as I did :-) I needed it
after an ll-nighter preparing a geography test. By the way, given some
comment last week about Americans and their geographical knowledge, none
of my World Regional Geography class managed to mix the two up (which is
ironic because I did in the sixth grade-the only two question I missed on
a 100 question exam!!!). Bio-gas...hmmmm....perhaps we could tap the same
source in Russian givne the election rhetoric :-)
Department of Geography
Florida State University
|+ - ||Re: anti-Semitism (mind)
In a genuinly democratic society everyone is free to keep
and practice whatever culture they want to.
The problem is when you claim to be member of a group
purely by your genetic inheritence; it is also impossible.
There is no such a thing as a pure Hungarian, or pure English, or
pure Jewish, whether you like it or not, whether it is
"Good" or "Bad". It is a fact. I'd like to be able to
be proud to be a decent human being, with a particular
culture and inheritence - if I or anyone else happen to be
interested in that sort of thing. The first part should be
the determining factor of my identity, not the second.
You cannot artificially administer assimilation or
non-assimilation, no such policy has ever been successful
to my knowledge. It seems, that people take what they
judge to be useful from newly encountered cultures,
and drop the ones they deem outmoded from their own. Lots of these
discarded traditions have only fitting place in a museum.
But one cannot and should not make these decisions for others.
> For example:
> The latest rage in biology and genetics is the discovery of naturally
> occuring medicines in the rainforests of the world. These medicines
> were discovered by the native peoples, who live a non-western culture.
> If they had been assimilated into the western culture, their knowledge
> would have been lost. They have things to offer us, and we have
> things to offer them, but to totally destroy either culture would
> be a loss to the world (realistically, the west would absorb them, and
> destroy their culture, as we did with the American Indians. there would
> be little danger of them absorbing us into their culture, short of
> what we now call western-bashing multicultural).
|+ - ||Action on the Slovak Language Law (mind)
Yesterday, the Slovak Parliament has passed a "language police" law.
Therefore, today, it is our duty to act. Attached below are two letters: one
to your political representatives, the other to the newspapers. Please mail
both today. If you don't have the E-Mail address of the local papers in your
state, or those of your Senators or Congressman, let me know and I will send
them to you. If I have to, I will stay up all night in answering your
questions, but PLEASE DO YOUR PART. Let us make sure that thousands of
letters are mailed, and it will only happen, IF YOU SEN YOURS.
With best personal regards: Bela Liptak
The first letter is to the Senate Foreign Affairs Committee, with copies to
our political leaders. The E-Mail addresses are: ,
, , ,
, , ,
Copies are sent to our political leaders :
because Robert Dole does not have an E-Mail number, his Fax Number
To the Members of the Foreign Affairs Committee, The Honorable Senators:
Joseph Biden, Hank Brown, Paul Coverdell, Christopher Dodd, Russell
Feingold, James Jeffords, Richard Lugar, Daniel Moynihan, Larry Pressler,
Charles Robb, Paul Sarbanes and Paul Simon.
Copies: The Honorable President Bill Clinton, Vice President Al Gore, Senator
Robert Dole and Newt Gingrich
RE: Language-Police in Slovakia
Yesterday, the 15th of November, an unprecedented outrage occured in
Slovakia. The Slovak Parliament has approved the use of the
"language-police." I ask you, as a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee
to resist this outrage. This law makes it a crime for a German doctor to
speak in his native tongue to his German patient. This law makes it a
criminal act for a Rabbi to speak Yiddish or Hebrew in a synagogue. It
outlaws the use of Roma when two Gipsies are getting married. It could result
in the jailing of an Italian opera singer, for singing in Italian. And it
outlaws the total educational system of the 600,000 indigenous Hungarians.
These people did not emigrate into Slovakia, they became minorities while
staying in their towns and villages, as the borders were redrawn around them.
The former Communist Prime Minister, Vladimir Meciar considers them as a
"problem to be solved" and instead of concentrating on the economic problems
of his nation, he attempts to distract attention, by whipping up ethnic
While Meciar objects to cultural or collective rights, he approves
of collective guilt of minorities and therefore he keeps the Benes Decrees
on the books. These decrees made it possible to deport members of the
Hungarian minority and to confiscate their property. Because the United
States supports the rights of minorities, Mr. Meciar's paper SLOVENSKA
REPUBLIKA, has started an attack on the USA. On June 3, 1995 it wrote: ...
20 million blacks, 6.5 million Mexicans, 1.5 million Puerto Ricans, half
million Native Americans... have virtually no rights in the United States.
Compared with those minorities, the half million Hungarians in Slovakia,
perhaps one third of whom are Romanies, are only a drop in the Sea.
In the name of the 1.6 million American-Hungarians and in the name
of American respect for freedom of speech, freedom of religion and human
rights, I respectfully ask the Foreign Affairs Committee to advise the
Slovak Government, that our ambassador will be recalled, if this fascist law
is not rescinded. If the precedent of a language-police institution is
allowed to stand, others will folow this example, which will create
destabilizing tensions in this already troubled region.
your name, regular mail address, title
The other letter is to your local newspaper. If you do not have the E-Mail
address, give me the name of your state and I will mail them to you.
To The Editor,
The curbing of the Hungarian language in Slovakia (11/16/95) is more than an
administrative formality directed against Hungarians. The law that was
approved on November 15 authorizes the use of the "language-police" in
Slovakia. This law makes it a criminal act for a Rabbi to speak Yiddish or
Hebrew in a synagogue. It outlaws the use of Roma when two Gipsies are
getting married. It could result in the jailing of an Italian opera singer,
for singing in Italian. And it would outlaw the total educational system of
the 600,000 indigenous Hungarians, people who became minorities not by
emigrating into Slovakia, but by staying in their towns and villages, while
borders been redrawn around them. The former Communist Prime Minister,
Vladimir Meciar considers them to be a "problem to be solved" and instead of
concentrating on the economic problems of his nation, attempts to distract
attention from them by whipping up ethnic hatred.
Because the United States supports the rights of minorities, Mr.
Meciar's paper SLOVENSKA REPUBLIKA, has started an attack on the USA. On June
3, 1995 it wrote: ... 20 million blacks, 6.5 million Mexicans, 1.5 million
Puerto Ricans, half million Native Americans... have virtually no rights in
the United States. Compared with those minorities, the half million
Hungarians in Slovakia, perhaps one third of whom are Romanies, are only a
drop in the Sea.
The free world should not tolerate the use of "language police" in
the middle of Europe at the end of the 20th Century. This is not only,
because we Americans respect human rights, and the freedom of speech and
religion. The use of language-police should not be tolerated, because of the
tensions it creates, in an already unstable part of the world. Therefore we
should recall our Ambassador until this outrageous law is rescinded.
Your name, date, address, telephone number and title.
Thanks for helping. What is 10 minutes for us, can not only mean the cultural
survival of 600,000, but also can give a precedent; that there indeed are
international standards of behavior and the Free World is willing to stand up
for them. Best regards: Bela Liptak
|+ - ||Privatization of MVM (mind)
Unfortunately the style of the Forum is contageous--now it is appearing on
this list as well. For example, Barna Bozoki writes:
>Balogh Eva again argues in a subject she knows nothing about.
>I don't know how of the decision about the MVM privatization
>was made, I hope it was made with better knowledge of the issues involved
>than: if it is good for Connecticut it must be good for Hungary also.
On the other hand, the other expert in utilities, Laci Toth, says:
>Eva Balogh,your argument is good,regarding the privatization of MVM.
Please, experts, decide!
Well, I am certainly not an expert on utility companies. I have never claimed
to be one either on this list or on the Forum. However, I am a firm believer
in private ownership of companies. If it were possible to make the American
Postal Service private I would--I bet that it would be better than it is now.
See FedEx or UPS!
But anyway, let's compare the assessments of Barna Bozoki and Laci Toth, both
worked as engineers in utility companies:
>The reliability of the Hungarian electric supply was poor in the past
>because it was not interconnected with Western Europe. Just recently this
>tie has been established, therefore the reliability will improve.
Will a priva-
>tized,profit-seeking utility industry be able to maintain the high level of
>reliability and accountability that we Hungarians now take for granted?
Well, gentlemen, let's decide which is true.
>Obviously the rural distribution network also contributes to the
>reliability, but I don't think that this is the main issue in the
I assume that is an answer for my anecdotal recounting of my relatives'
problem with the supply of electricity. I don't quite know why everybody
thinks that all my relatives live in villages. Not one does. This anecdotal
reference is to an urban environment.
>I worked for a large public utility for 33 years, so I know something about
>electric power systems, still I would not dare to come out and argue for or
>against the MVM privatization. There is no simple rule for such an issue.
>In Ontario for example, the public power was definitely a big asset for
>many years. The electricity here was much cheaper, than in the US. Now,
>with different economic conditions and changes in technology, may be
>privatization would makes sense here. A lot of qualified people thinking
But if that is the case why are you vehement against my wanting to privatize?
Then, what's wrong with my position? Why do you have to attack me; why do you
have to accuse me of ignorance? I don't quite understand it.
As for Laci Toth, he says:
>Privat ownership would require a much
>higher level of equity,as opposed to debt,and the equity would have to earn
>at least 5-6 percentage points higher than the interest on the debt.This
>would make the Hungarian ratepayer pay a much higher price for the use of
I am sorry but I don't understand this whole thing. Most likely my fault.
|+ - ||Honnan fog jonni a gaz? (mind)
Dear Darren Purcell;
Yesterday,you wrote:"Leslie,I have not seen to many maps of showing large
reserves of natural gas in Hungary.Could clarify where this gas will come
During the summer of 95,I visited hungary and to my surprise I noticed,that
most of the small villages I were visiting,gas pipelines were installed and
connected to the family homes. So I talked to the people there and everybody
said,today natural gas supply is no problem. I didn't investigated it any
further,but I suppose it is coming from Russia,or one of the former SU.repub-
lics.If the natural gas is there already, I don't see,why couldn't we use it
for operating gas turbines? Before 1948 my family used to operate a Power
Station,and there we produced the gas from coal.Today,I would be glad to ope-
rate a similar station with natural gas.For me,this is the way to go.
|+ - ||None (mind)
Subject: Time: 1:34 PM
OFFICE MEMO None Date: 11/16/95
Does anyone know the origin of the surname "Kolonay" Is it indeed Hungarian?
Please reply in English, as I cannot read Magyar.
|+ - ||e-mail address search (mind)
I would like to have the e-mail address of The Budapest Sun which is an
english language newspaper in Hungary. I am specifically looking for the
e-mail address of one of their journalists.
Any help would be appreciated.
Ron Patterson P.Eng.
Amherst, Nova Scotia, Canada. " Learn to do by doing "
|+ - ||Re: Freedom fight and 1956 (mind)
>It was not the western press from which the Hungarians borrowed the term
>'freedom fight' and 'freedom fighter' in 1956 (while the guns were still
>cracking in Budapest), but, rather, the other way around: the western
>press picked up the term from the 'szabadsaagharcosok'. Nor was it
>generally customary, except in Marxist schoolbooks, to refer to 1848-49 as
>'forradalom' (revolution); rather, 'szabadsaagharc' was the traditional
>term used to describe it in Hungarian for over a century. Nor is 'freedom
>fight' identical with 'fueggetlenseegi harc', 'fight for independence', a
>term which indeed never did catch on in Hungary - perhaps because it was
>never really applicable. Until April, 1849, when the Republic was finally
>declared and the Habsburgs dethroned, the fight was much more one of
>constitutional restoration and reform than of revolution, Petofi
>notwithstanding. And even in 1956, the image of an independent Hungary
>was maintained throughout. In neither case did Hungary need to secede
>from anything in order to establish its independence. Freedom,
>illegality, illegitimacy - these are other questions.
I taught Western Civilization for over twenty years and I do not recall any
textbook printed in English that did not call 1848, including the Hungarian
revolution, a revolution. There are also specialists today,
some Marxists others are not, like Istvan Deak, who speak of the Lawful
Revolution of 1848. There are respectable Marxist historians, e.g. C.Hill,
and one should not confuse them with Stalinist propagandists.
Hungary was not an independent country in 1848 or in 1956. In 1848 we were
part of the Habsburg empire, in 1956 the Soviet empire.
Can you prove who used the term "freedom fighter" first? It would be
interesting to check the contemporary press, both Hungarian and western.
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
|+ - ||Re: e-mail address search (mind)
>I would like to have the e-mail address of The Budapest Sun which is an
>english language newspaper in Hungary. I am specifically looking for the
>e-mail address of one of their journalists.
>Any help would be appreciated.
>Ron Patterson P.Eng.
>Amherst, Nova Scotia, Canada. " Learn to do by doing "
Try the following:
Peter I. Hidas, Montreal
|+ - ||HUNGARY About 75% info for godoi/Steve Slovak Rep. (mind)
1.: Sure : From Ferihegy (Fred Hill) Airport there is suttle bus,
about 7-15 $ (or equivalent Hung Ft).
2.: I guess : It stops at Deak Square (Deak Ter), and tramp goes
to Nyugati pu (West Railway Station) and subway to Keleti pu.
(East Railwaystation) in 5-10 minutes for another half-half $.
3.: Sure : There is Taxi from Freihegy.
I am not sure the price, but much higher that 10$, about 50$.
There are Taxi drivers who cheat with foreigners asking
higher price than 50 bucks.
4.: Sure : from Ferihegy Bus 98(?) gees to
subway in 20 minutes (about half $).
Subway goes to Keleti pu. for about an another half $ in another
5.: At Ferihegy many people speak English, not at Ferihegy very few.
|+ - ||Hello I am new at this (mind)
Hello My name is Jeremy Meyer. I am new at this LISTSERV. Is there a way of
getting a list of people who are on this LISTERV?
I go to Cerritos College and my major is Photography.
Take it easy,
|+ - ||Re: anti-Semitism (mind)
Eva Durant gave us another lecture on how we should order our values.
>In a genuinly democratic society everyone is free to keep
>and practice whatever culture they want to.
>The problem is when you claim to be member of a group
>purely by your genetic inheritence; it is also impossible.
>There is no such a thing as a pure Hungarian, or pure English, or
>pure Jewish, whether you like it or not, whether it is
>"Good" or "Bad". It is a fact. I'd like to be able to
>be proud to be a decent human being, with a particular
>culture and inheritence - if I or anyone else happen to be
>interested in that sort of thing. The first part should be
>the determining factor of my identity, not the second.
This is becoming tiresome. She can be whatever she chooses to be but
should kindly grant similar rights to others.
I have not heard anyone on this list making claims of genetically
inherited purity. She attacks a paper tiger and obfuscates the fact
that I can very well choose to be VERY Hungarian or VERY Jewish
or whatever. If it pleases me, I can make that part the determining
factor of my identity. Many do just that, have always done that and
presumably will continue to do that.
Ms. Durant may want to ask herself why that is so. Marx has, no doubt,
solved this problem too.
Name: tiha von ghyczy