Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
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Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: leadership, etc (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Muzsikas (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
4 Mea culpa (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
5 Gyorgy Kadar's description of MDF congress (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
6 MODEM in HUNGARY (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Paprika/Peppers (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Main St. and Wall St. (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: AUSTRALIAN HUNGARIAN NEEDS Hungarians to talk to (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
10 Tell me about Dabrongy (?) (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: leadership, etc (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: leadership, etc (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Paprika/Peppers (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Main St. and Wall St. (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Quebec (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
16 Eva Balogh (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: leadership, etc (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
18 What happened to Szabad Gyuri bacsi? (mind)  114 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: leadership, etc (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I agreed with most except that leader-king thing
and strong attachment to Plato... He was an
aristocratic blue who had preached for a selected
few and had disregard for most of humanity - as far as I
Eva Durant
+ - Re: Soros wrongdoings---a short list (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

All points made in a discussion that detail
the  opponents credentials, but not the ideas
put forward are suspect.  People cannot be
specialists in all areas of interests, but
they ought to form opinions if they live in
a democracy. All you need is useful and
democratically supervised information...
,,, and aware people who expect their opinions to be
valued, not only marketed...
Eva Durant
+ - Re: Muzsikas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Barry Guiduli wrote:
> Bela Liptak wrote:
> .......
> .......
> >
> > It was a nice evening. See them, if you can.
> >
> Does anybody know if Muzsikas is coming to Chicago?
> Thanks for any info,
> Barry Guiduli

This seems like sort of a new thing, replying to my own posting....

Muzsikas was here on Saturday, I just found an announcement.

Ha valaki tud valamilyen magyar programrol itt Chicagoban, erdelkelne.

 - Barry
+ - Mea culpa (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

This was stupid. It would have been better to think a little bit before
writing it down. I should have weighted the parties; i.e., the MSZP and the
SZDSZ had a larger share of the votes than the other parties. Unfortunately,
in my own library I can't find the exact figures on voters, only the
percentages in parliament. In any case, the figure is a great deal lower
than 46% but I would say still high enough.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Gyorgy Kadar's description of MDF congress (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I no longer know what to believe. Since the congress was not open to the
public and therefore no member of the media was present, I assume that the
descriptions of the meeting came second hand. Since I don't believe that
anyone simply would make up a story like that, I must conclude that certain
participants heard one thing, while others heard other things. This happens
quite often in describing crime, for example. Most likely, we will never
know the truth.

        Eva Balogh
+ - MODEM in HUNGARY (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I returned on March 19th from Budapest where I never did get my MWAVE modem
working on my IBM laptap.  The IBM service people there know nothing about
these things.  I found a technical expert at IBM Austria who tested the modem
there and it worked.  He felt that a judicious selection of MODEM codes would
produce good results in Budapest but I never did get the modem to work.
Yesterday I checked with IBM modem experts here- and they are indeed experts-
and they tell me I need to clip in a DAA attachment de
+ - Re: Paprika/Peppers (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

All attempt at growing the proper "white" paprika
from seeds brought from Hungary failed here.
It was available a few years ago in Morrisons,
and once in a Manchester veg. street stall...
Australia is great, I'll never foryet, a 2lb bagful
for 1$ Sydney sunday market.
If you fly from Hungary if you wrap in alu foil
healthy ones, they survive for weeks - if overlooked
by the bomb-squad.  Frozen gesztenyepure lasts
well too, if it is packaged in multiple layers
of polistyrene or similar...

> You should grow peppers that are sweet, crisp, and fleshy.  Unsweet peppers
> with a thick skin will do an injustice to any Hungarian recipe.  If you
> can't find Shepherd then try growing Sweet Hungarian or Gypsie.
> Pepper plants thrive in warm, sunny, rich soils.  They don't like periods of
> drought.  Don't be disappointed if your peppers don't perform well.  There
> are years, like last year, when the peppers are great and prolific.  Other
> years they can be dismal.  Since I don't change the way I garden from year
> to year, I assume that our Canadian weather has a lot to do with the quality
> of the crop.
> Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Main St. and Wall St. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> >
> > Fascinating stuff. Would this mean that in the UK the unemployment is
> > "kept" at 10% or so to keep down inflation?
> I don't think so. Unlike the US Fed, the Bank of England is controlled
> by politicians (The Chancellor of the Exchecquer or some such title) and
> for them to raise interest rates to keep unemployment from getting too low
> is unthinkable. Even if it weren't, nobody thinks getting from 10% to
> say 6% unemployment would put serious inflationary pressure on the economy.

I've just read in HVG (there was a special section on the UK)
that in fact the threshhold under which they do not
want to go is 7.5%.   To my amazement, I also read, that
UK is fine, growth figures cute, doing better than anybody...
Not one mention of still falling living standards, growing
taxes, very high and growing unemployment, ruined health
service/transport/education, homelessness, negative equities...
etc...  They seem to be still good at the most important
thing: "image-making"...

Eva Durant
+ - Re: AUSTRALIAN HUNGARIAN NEEDS Hungarians to talk to (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi.  I don't speak any Hungarian but I too have deep roots there.  My
mother's entire family(Edenhoffer) is from Pecs, and my brother is
currently studying there.

I am a first year student at the University of Texas at Austin.
Here's my e-mail address:
                                         mbachers @mail.utexas.edu
+ - Tell me about Dabrongy (?) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

my great-grandfather was born in an area called ?Dabrongy? near the river
Pecs. Can anyone tell me anything about this area, as well as how to
research Hungarian genealogy????

Please help! Email me if you have information, or if you've been to this
+ - Re: leadership, etc (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> says:
>At 03:15 PM 3/19/96 -0500, George Szaszvari wrote:
>>Naturally, no leader ever works in a vacuum. They need supporters and
>>allies, but the strength, charisma and wisdom of a leader influences
>>all this. Take Napoleon Bonaparte, for example: he only achieved (without
>>pretending that he was necessarily *enlightened*) his conquests through
>>strength, charisma and *military wisdom*.
>Political leadership has no meaning any more and there is no such thing as
>economic leadership.  "Natural" economic "forces" alone determine todays
>politics.  Real power is economic power.  Democracy has been usurped!
>Whomever you vote for, the government always wins.  And the governments
>major goal is to ensure that its policies result in a good credit rating on
>the international bond market.  Everything else is negotiable and people are

It is hard to disagree with all this, in principle. Today the most powerful
countries in the world are also the economic leaders. Japan lost WW2 from
a military point of view, but continue the war via economic means, the
US in the forefront of the western military-industrial complex....

I cannot agree, however, that the personal qualities of leaders are
totally meaningless today. Take Mandela in South Africa, Gorbachev in
the former USSR, Milosevic in (former) Yugoslavia, Gamsakurdia in Georgia,
to say nothing of earlier examples this century like Hitler, Lenin, Stalin,
JFK, Franco, Castro, Gandhi, Nagy, Mintoff, you name it. Religious leaders
in the Islamic world is another area that could be argued. Anyway, these
leaders, whether good or bad, certainly had some impact, one way, or
another, even if they could never operate without the constraints and
influences of economic forces, financiers, the vested interests of the
military-industrial complex, etc, (though some may have tried.)



George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
* Independent Commodore Products Users' Group UK * C=64 stuff wanted *
* ACCU ** ARM Club ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list *
+ - Re: leadership, etc (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Eva Durant
> says:
>I agreed with most except that leader-king thing
>and strong attachment to Plato...

A Neo-Platonist, eh? Only in the mystical sense! Seriously, though, I
wasn't aware that I had a strong attachment to Plato; I only borrowed
an expression of his that now has common currency in the world of debate,
honestly... ;-)



George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * Cybernautic address: 
* Independent Commodore Products Users' Group UK * C=64 stuff wanted *
* ACCU ** ARM Club ** Interested in s/h chess books? Ask for my list *
+ - Re: Paprika/Peppers (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

No Hungarian content but (I think) useful:

Having undergone (and still suffering from the after-effects of)
kidney-stone pains and then lithotripsy treatment, I learned a lot about
them. Among other things I learned that green peppers are a major source of
oxalate, the major component in the most frequent form of kidney-stone.

My advice: take it easy with the pepper consumption, it is not worth it.

Gabor D. Farkas
+ - Re: Main St. and Wall St. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:59 PM 3/19/96 -0500,  Andras Kornai wrote:

>Whether such monetary control is exercised by the Fed is unclear (the
>market was betting that it would be, but don't mistake a bet for the actual
>thing -- in the past decade unemployment has never been low enough to
>trigger this policy) so the question is hypothetical for the US. For
>England it's doubly hypothetical, unemployment being way above the
>inflationary threshold and the Bank of England being a pawn of the >government

You say this with a certain amount of disdain.  Why?  Do you not like
government elected by the people making economic decisions?  Who should the
Bank of England be a pawn of, if not the government?  After all, doesn't the
government just accommodate the wishes of the moneyed classes?

Don't worry about not having any qualifications in economics, Andras.  I'm
enough of a democrat (perhaps unwisely) to welcome all opinions and comments.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Quebec (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Do you really think that an attendant at Montreal's Olympic stadium would
> 'chose' not to understand the word 'toilet'?  That would be a political

In Canada, people ignore English words as a poltical statement. However this
gets dangerous in some cases. For example, recently I read a story about a
French Quebecer who would not stop at stopsigns because they said "stop" and
not "arret". This is just plain foolishness if you ask me. Even in Hungary and
France the stop signs say stop. Oh well, such is life!
+ - Eva Balogh (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

While continuing the "Soros" topic I am responding under a new Subject field
because he is not the subject of my remarks.  I have no beef with Soros or
his alleged wrongdoings -- I simply don't know enough about his dealings one
way or another.  Unlike some, I prefer not to get involved in arguments just
for the kicks of it.

Rather, my topic is Eva Balogh.   I don't really want to dwell on her
mathematics; others have already pointed out the fallacy behind her
tendentious arithmetic.  However, it is another example of her venturing into
unfamiliar territory.  Yet she calls me patronizing when I  gently remind her
of the pitfalls of attempting to be something of a Renaissance scholar. She
may not believe me, but I really enjoy her historical postings.

Obviously, others on this list respect her for her expertise also, and not a
few tend to rush to her aid even when she is on shaky grounds, commenting on
other topics.  One of them is Peter Hidas, commenting:

>>She might have said that people are against total compensation of Jews
>>under existing laws the average citizen -- without regard to religion or
>>ethnicity -- could receive only _partial_ compensation for illegally
>>confiscated property.  The law under consideration would fully compensate
>>Jews.  Most people feel this is unfair.

>Why do you say that Eva is unfamiliar with the topic? Why are you a better
>authority? You criticize her for saying "they" but you are talking about
>"most people".  How would you know the opinion of most people? Do you mean
>the ones who voted for Csurka?

OK.  I don't KNOW the opinion of most people.  I should have said it is not
difficult to understand why people might feel it is unjust to single out some
groups for preferential treatment -- in this case, full compensation -- just
because they happen to belong to a religious or ethnic group.  I for one
would not consider this fair.

Peter's last quoted sentence threw me for a loop.  Why would the phrase "most
people" refer to the ones who voted for Csurka?  I thought his voting bloc
was minuscule.



PS.  I, too, have heard about the antisemitic epithets allegedly hurled at
Gyorgy Szabad, but did not see an actual quote.  If anyone has, I would like
to see it for myself.  If it really happened, it would bolster Eva's claim.
 If not, it would be another example of unsubstantiated allegations, of which
we see so many nowadays.
+ - Re: leadership, etc (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:48 PM 3/20/96 -0500, George Szaszvari wrote:

>I cannot agree, however, that the personal qualities of leaders are
>totally meaningless today. Take Mandela in South Africa, Gorbachev in
>the former USSR, Milosevic in (former) Yugoslavia, Gamsakurdia in Georgia,
>to say nothing of earlier examples this century like Hitler, Lenin, Stalin,
>JFK, Franco, Castro, Gandhi, Nagy, Mintoff, you name it. Religious leaders
>in the Islamic world is another area that could be argued. Anyway, these
>leaders, whether good or bad, certainly had some impact, one way, or
>another, even if they could never operate without the constraints and
>influences of economic forces, financiers, the vested interests of the
>military-industrial complex, etc, (though some may have tried.)

I think that leaders today can elevate a society/nation/country to a level
that already exists, or, they can ruin it.  Mandela may raise S. Africa to
Western European levels and I would consider that good.  But do you think
that he can go beyond that?  Can any leader?  I think not.  And that can be
problematic.  If people in developed, western nations, give up hopes that
leadership, enlightened or otherwise, can make a difference, then we may be
in for a decline.  Just look at the low voter turnout in many elections.
That's just one of the many social costs of "free" markets.  The economic
costs will have to be tabulated later, after the fall.

Joe Szalai
+ - What happened to Szabad Gyuri bacsi? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Lectoris salutem!
        It was obvious from the moment of the secession of the MDF, that
for outsiders the most vulnerable point may be the refused proposal of
Gyorgy Szabad on the first day of the congress. Therefore I discussed
the events after the congress with three participating eye-witnesses.
        My question to those participating friends was: was there any
anti-semitic content in the refusal of the proposal of Gyorgy Szabad?
        I can declare, that Gyorgy Szabad in the MDF was very much
respected and considered as the living indication that all those, who
wanted to paint the portait of the MDF as an intolerant party, were all
liars. As the speaker of the Parliament he defended very effectively the
fresh, young and vulnerable values of parlamentary democracy. He never
wanted to go to another party, he was very much at home in the MDF. His
relation to Ivan Szabo and Sandor Lezsak was not influenced by any other
than political points of view. The mentioning of anti-semitism in this
respect is plain lie and insinuation. He was Gyuri bacsi (uncle George)
for the MDF members.
        The political differences between the two opposing groups of the
MDF were focussed on two demands, common for both groups:
1) The presidential board should be more effective (more disciplined),
2) The allience policy should be more careful.
The differences manifested themselves in the questions "how and
with whom?" The moves towards the Small-Holders (Torgyan-Schamschula) or
the MIEP (Csurka-Bencsik) were rejected by both Lezsak and Szabo (just
read the newspapers). Lezsak simply said, that during the delicate
forging attempts of the Civil Allience (Fidesz-MDF-Christian Democrats)
in November, before a decisive meeting of the Christian Democrats it was
a political mistake of the MDF (Szabo) and Fidesz to release common
declarations, and thus to increase jealousy in the third would-be
(would-have-been) participant.
        Now back to the congress of the Democratic Forum.
The events in the closed-door congress will not be discussed publicly by
the participants - that is what they decided while all were together. But
I was not a participant. The responsability of transferring the report of
eye- (and ear-) witnesses will be only mine.
        As the interested readers might remember, on the 2nd and 3rd of
March, 1996 the National Congress of the Hungarian Democratic Forum, MDF
was to elect a new president for the party. Two candidates were running
for the presidency, and Sandor Lezsak was nominated by a larger number of
local chapters, than Ivan Szabo. The general opinion among the barefooted
members was, that Ivan Szabo as acting vice-president was not successful
enough during the almost two years elapsed since the 1994 elections. The
actual president, Lajos Fur decided to refrain from candidacy.
        The main point in the congress was the election of the new
president. At the beginning the presiding "moderator" (so to say) made a
proposal (which I personally would not have made): The timing of the
voting procedure of the election was proposed just after the half-hour
speeches of the candidates, and before the debate of the other
participants. The argument was, that the counting of the votes usually
takes time, and the debate may utilize this time after the voting. This
doubtful proposal was  voted and accepted with high majority of the votes
(doubtful, since the opinions of the supporters of the opposing
candidates could not influence the voting).
        At this point entered Szabad Gyuri bacsi (uncle Gyuri). He
stood up, and made another proposal: The yearly financial report of the
party should be examined in more detail and before finishing that work
(several more weeks) no election should be held. It was obvious, that it
was a delayed, good-willing last-minute attempt to derail the election on
behalf of a Szabo-supporting respected personality. This was the reason
for the booing, and for the noisy rejection of his proposal.
        Then the two candidates delivered their speeches, and the
electoral votes of the participants were collected. After
the voting in the following debate many participants mentioned that it
was a shame to behave with Gyuri bacsi in the manner described above,
and some of them apologized and otheers proposed common declarative
        In all this the concept or word: "anti-semitism" emerged only
once in this form: one of the apologizing participants asked publicly the
question from  the person of Gyorgy Szabad, whether he felt any
anti-semitic flavor in the noisy rejection of his proposal, because if
yes, then he, that participant himself would propose a written public
declarative apologizing. Gyuri bacsi said that he did not see any reason
for any apology. Still later (perhaps next day) there was a voting on the
issue of declarative apologizing, when Sandor Lezsak abstained.
        My friends did not hear any other mentioning of any word just
faintly referring to the religion of Gyuri bacsi.
        I can name my sources, and their presence can be verified by
documents. Who can give the sources of any other version of the story?
And what is that other version (I mean: who said what, as above)? Gyuri
bacsi certainly would be ready to tell the true story to any of his
former students.
        One might mention a parallellism with another case, which
happened some years ago, when in the Parliament the then governing
Antall-coalition members had booed a speaker of the opposition by
shouting: "Put a barrel under the speaker!", or "Barrel to the speaker!"
("Hordot a szonoknak!").
[It is worth mentioning, that in the Hungarian language (maybe in other
languages too) somebody, who is only speaking and speaking to the public
without saying anything substantial, is called "hordoszonok = speaker on
the barrel" (some relation to "drunken speaker" too).]
        After this episode the openly anti-government media (*) was
discussing for months whether it was: "Barrel to the speaker!" (hordot a
szonoknak!) or "Barrel to the Jew!" (hordot a zsidonak!). Careful
examination of the video- and acoustic records by the court experts
showed later that there was no mentioning of "...Jew...", that is there
was no "zsidozas".
(*) [no problem with the anti-goverment media, the free media is
anti-goverment by nature, eh?... the only question may be, how this free
media turned to be pro-government, or strangely enough anti-opposition
        I simply cannot imagine, why is it so important to try to make
the public believe, that the most important (now after having been
halved, certainly less important) truly anti-bolshevik party of the
Hungarian Parliament, the Hungarian Democratic Forum was and still
(after so many painful erosions and secessions) is anti-semitic,
nationalistic, populist, and so on and so forth...
        It is not so difficult to force us to be even more silent,since
we were accustomed to be silent for decades (our fathers were not the
rulers in the bolshevik party, but were forced to silence, to misery, to
the kolkhoz, to emigration, to prison, or to death by both Szalasi-Hitler
and Rakosi-Stalin and even by Csermanek-Brezhnev). And we, with such family
backgrounds vote for the MDF and the conservative civil center-right.

        God bless us all...             kadargyorgy