Szepessu"meg, in  Szepes (German  Zips)  County,  Iglo'i Ja'ra's.
          1,360  Slovak  and  Hungarian inhabitants (1913).   German  name:
          Schmo"gen.  Slovak name:  Smizany (the z has a  v over it).  from
          Magyar  helysegnev-azonosito  szotar  (1992),   p.   369.     Ken
          )

Phil:  Thanks so much for the info you provided.  I ended up accepting a
position in Romania teaching at a high school.  Quite a change from the
original plan, but I am excited about it.  Will be in Kolosvar from
January to June teaching English and American History.  Good luck to you
and your girl friend.  -Jennifer

On Tue, 13 Dec 1994, Phil Dietrich wrote:

> My girl friend owns an Apt. in Budapest. Its on the Pest side at the
> Nagyvarad Ter, very close to the Danube and Metro. She will be visiting me
> in Ohio Dec.28 to March 1.
> It is a sixth floor large one bedroom with cable T.V., phone, fridge, and
> very nice helpful neighbors. Also has a new washing machine, kitchen
> appliances, new living room furnishings. Heat is hot water and there is
> carpet throughout. Also her stay in the U.S. may be longer than two months.
> Let me know your situation. We have friends close that can take care of all
> arrangements should you plan to be in Budapest after she has come to the
> U.S.
> Thanks,
> Phil Dietrich
>

Would you please send me the list of all Finno-Ugric languages?  I'm just
curious.  Thanks!  :)

In article >  (Constantin Donea)
writes:
>From:  (Constantin Donea)
>Subject: Re: Trianon
>Date: 16 Dec 1994 14:56:46 GMT

>In article , zcapl74 >
writes:
>>         Frankly I do not agree with  (d.a.), I cannot
>> see where you got the idea from that hungary "...regained at least most of
>> the territory in the course of the thirties and WWII" and then you go on to
>> way that "After (notice, capital letter at the beginning of a sentence) WWII
>> Hungary returned to its post WWI boundaries...". Hungary lost almost
>> two-thirds of her territory after WWI and then some more after WWII, so
>> Hungary was larger after WWI than after WWII, and not the same size.
>>
>>         Further more, when did Russia and Austria loose any territory. I
>> recollect that there was the matter about Prussia which was taken by Germany
>> from Poland, then taken by Russia when they drove out the Germans in WWI
(?),
>> and then eventually returned to Poland.
>>
>>         What areas did the Germans loose? They lost the Sudetenlands
(however
>> you spell it) and the Rhine valley (O.K. also Prussia), none of which was
>> theirs to start of with. And what did Romania and Czechoslovakia every
loose?
>>
>>
>>         Karcsi


>I don' know what Czechoslovakia lost. But I can inform you that Romania lost
>Basarabia (the actual Moldavia), taken by the USSR, and the Quadrilater, taken
by
>Bulgaria.

>Constantin

>PS: All these complaints about the Trianon treaty sound like border
revisionism.


Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it last week (in a RFE/RL
article I posted on on this newsgroup) that the Ukranian prime minister
announced a snag in the Romanian-Ukrainian treaty because of Romania's
insistence on wording that would later allow Romania to claim territory now
in the Ukraine?
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
Norbert Horvat

-
In article >,
Paul Nevai > wrote:
>:Az apostoli hitvalla's
>:======================
>:Hiszek egy Istenben, mindenhato' Atya'ban,
>:mennynek e's fo~ldnek Teremto"je'ben;
>:e's a Je'zus Krisztusban,,
>:o" egy Fia'ban, mi Urunkban;
>
>etc. etc. Am I the only one for who these prayers sound totally ludicrous?

Unfortunately not.
Gyuri

A list of the Finno-Ugrian languages (although sending such a l
           ist to Indiana U is like bringing coal to Newcastle):

           Uralic> Finno-Ugrian + Samoyed (Russian: Nenets)
           Samoyed = various languages spoken in northern Eurasia; no of
                     speakers measured in thousands
           Finno-Ugrian > Fennic and Ugrian branches
            Ugrian>Hungarian + Ob'Ugric (Khanty YOstyak" & Mansi YVogul")
            Fennic> Permian> Komi and Udmurt (Votiak)
                    Volga Fennic>  Mari (Cheremis) and Mordvin
                    Baltic ">Finnish, Estonian, Veps (and a a few langs.
                     that have a handful of speakers or died out recently)
              Check the  Enc. Britannica for  a  chart  of  all this.   Ken

Bekes Boldog Karacsonyi Unnepeket es sikerekben gazdag
Boldog Ujevet Kivanok a magyar ujsag-csoportok minden
kedves olvasojanak! Viszontlatasra 1995-ben!
Minden jot,
Gotthard

Eva Balogh,

>(New Life), in which an article appeared about 100 Armenian and Georgian Jews
>settling in Nyiregyhaza. And if that wasn't enough, Peter Andras Nemenyi,
>another man who claims that he is not an antisemite, published news about
>secret agreements between the Horn government and who knows whom else about
>settling 200,000 former Soviet Jews in Hungary.

Writing an article against settling immigrants who are Jews is not antisemitism
.
Antisemitism is saying ALL Jews are bad for some reason.  Having the opinion`
that Jews have done something wrong, is not antisemitism, if there is proof
of it.  For example, is it prejudice against Hungarians to say that the
Hungarian government was wrong to side with the Germans in WWII (even if
there was no choice) and then say that all Hungarians are to blame for the
actions of hte government?  The point can be debated as to what the
government did was right or wrong, but people, some of them Jews, have
said the Hungarian people are ALL to blame since they didn't stop the
government from fighting with the Germans.  Is the prejudice?  No, it
is a critisism, right or wrong.  The same with criticizing Jews - are
all Jews to blame for the massacre of Palistinians 10 years ago in a
detension camp?  Are all Jews to blame when Palistinians are thrown
out of their houses to allow a Jewish family to move in (this is
documented, so let's not argue it)?  No, they are not all to blame, but
te criticism is still justified, and it is not prejudice.

Let's try to seperate legitimate disagreement with Jews on an issue, and
prejudice against Jews.

>be, in fact, very beneficial, and we should welcome these people with open
>arms since both the Armenians and the Jews have the reputations of being
>excellent businessmen and Hungary badly needs new capitalists! I am sure that

The Jewish Antidefimation League (JDL) would call this antisemitism, since you
again label Jews with the stereotypical label of 'excellent businessmen'.  Isn'
t
that ridiculous, but it is true.  In a poll last year, the JDL reported that
 most
Americans think Jewish people stick together more tan other groups, and the JDL
offered this as an example of antisemitism in the US.  Would it also be
prejudice to think the Chinese stick together more than other people?  I don't
think so; it is an observation made based on the behavior of that group.  We
 need
to be careful when using labels, especially those with stong emotions attahed t
o
them (attahed = attached).

Paul Gelencser

Dear Eva Balogh

Please do me the favor to let me know in advanve, if you are going to
attack my views and writings which I have only expressed somewhere else.
I have not participated in any arguments recently here, so if you could
not make your points on the given forum, where we argued, please don't stab
me in the back, somewhere else.

Nemenyi Peter Andras

Constantin Donea:
>PS: All these complaints about the Trianon treaty sound like border
>revisionism.

What would you say if Rumania lost 2/3 of the land it held for hundreds of
 years?

Paul

From: 

>Or, Hungary can do the same what France, Germany, even Austria do.
>Hungary could strictly clamp down on "re-settlement" -- regardless
>of race, national origin, religion -- and could let in members of the
>Hungarian nation only.

We should all be interested in preserving the HUngarian identity, especially
in the face of the flood of immigration expected from larger countries, such as
Russia.  Limiting entry to imvestors and investment, while preventing
 immigration
can be justified, especially now that population has come to the attention of
 the
public, as a legitimate issue, since it affects the survival of our planet.

PAul

 (Constantin Donea) quotes Karcsi (I'm only referring
to what Karcsi wrote - sorry, but couldn't find his original article in
the newsboard) as follows:

>In article , zcapl74 >
writes:
>> [...] I
>> recollect that there was the matter about Prussia which was taken by Germany
>> from Poland, then taken by Russia when they drove out the Germans in WWI
(?),
>> and then eventually returned to Poland.

This is not entirely correct:
(1) From what you say I have to assume you are not talking about Prussia,
    but only about Eastern Prussia.
(2) Prussia was not taken from Poland by Germany, but by a group of German
    territorial rulers (Deutscher Ritterorden), who did not act in the name
    of the German Empire (to cut the whole story very short). This happened in
    the 13th century.
(3) In 1914, some small areas of Eastern Prussia were occupied by Russian
    troops for a couple of weeks, but then the Russians were driven out again
    by the German army.
(4) Eastern Prussia was not returned to Poland after WW ONE, it remained
    German. The bigger part of it was attached to Russia and the smaller part
    to Poland after WW TWO.
                       ^^^
>>         What areas did the Germans loose? They lost the Sudetenlands
(however
>> you spell it) and the Rhine valley (O.K. also Prussia), none of which was
>> theirs to start of with. [...]
>>
>>         Karcsi

Again, there are some details which are not entirely correct:
(1) Germany did not lose the Sudetenland. It could not do so,  because the
    Sudetenland was not a part of Germany (i.e. the Reich founded in 1871).
    It was not even occupied by German troops during WWI (this was not
    necessary, because the Sudentenland was a part of Austria-Hungary).
(2) Germany did not lose the Rhine valley. The Rhine valley was occupied
    by Allied troops until 1930 and demilitarized until 1936, but it
    remained part of Germany.
(3) The parts of the Rhine valley which are roughly situated between the
    Swiss and Dutch borders of our days have been German since 0919. You are,
    after all, ofcourse correct when you say that the Rhine    ^     valley
    did not belong to Germany to start with: it did not do so before 0919,
    because there was no Germany by then.
(4) What areas did Germany lose?
    - Memelland ---> Lithuania
    - parts of Western Prussia (Danziger Korridor) ---> Poland
    - Danzig ---> free city
    - Prussian province of Posen ---> Poland
    - Northern Schleswig ---> Denmark
    - Eupen-Malmedy ---> Belgium
    - Alsace-Lorraine ---> France
    - parts of upper Silesia ---> Poland.

Wolf
--
+------------------+--------------------------+------------------------------+
| Wolf Rackebrandt |  |  |
| +49 30 4440668 +----------------------------+------------------------------+
+----------------+  I can resist everything, except temptation. (Oscar Wilde)

> writes:

>Subject: Re: Trianon
>In article , zcapl74
> writes:

>[...]
>after world war i germany, lost not only prussia and the
>sudetenland, but also alsace-lorraine and upper silesia as well as
>part of pommerania. [...]

* Prussia, the Sudetenland, Alsace-Lorraine, upper Silesia: see my previous
  article on the same topic!
* Parts of Pomerania were only lost to Poland as a result of WW TWO.
                                                                ^^^

Wolf
--
+------------------+--------------------------+------------------------------+
| Wolf Rackebrandt |  |  |
| +49 30 4440668 +----------------------------+------------------------------+
+----------------+  I can resist everything, except temptation. (Oscar Wilde)

Greetings

I am a school waterpolo coach form South Africa. During July this year I
visited Budapest to watch the excellent Korona International Waterpolo
Tournament.

I am arranging a tour for July next year and will be visiting Budapest and
Sopron on December 26. I have tried in vain to get the telephone and fax
number of the Hungarian Waterpolo Fedaration, based on Margaret Island at
the Olympic Pool. I would also like to get some contact details of the
waterpolo people in Sopron - they will be hosting a 9 nation U21 tournament
in mid-July.

My school tennis team will also be going with me in July 1995 and I need to
make contact with tennis schools/clubs in both centres.

Can you help me rather urgently please?

Please E-mail as soon as possible.

Sincere thanks in anticipation,

Grant Robertson

Karcsi writes that in WWII "actually half the time the Hungarians were
fighting with the Russians," and the context suggests that he means "on
the side of the Russians." If this is, indeed, what he means, he is in
error. The attempts to form an anti-fascist corps or division or
regiment (following the Polish, Romanian, Czechoslovak, etc. model) of
volunteers among the soldiers in Soviet prisoner of war camps were
squelched by the Soviet government probably in late 1943. Apart from the
activity of the chetniks in Bacska, guerilla actions during the war were
minimal in extent and negligible in effect in Hungary; they cannot bear
comparison with the "partisan" activity in Poland, Slovakia, Ukraine,
etc. During the siege of Budapest (Dec. 1944-Feb.1945) a Volunteer
Regiment was organized of deserters and prisoners of war (commander:
Col. Varihazy); this unit saw quite a bit of action and suffered heavy
casualties. Toward the end of the war in Europe, in March 1945, the
Temporary Government (Ideiglenes Kormany), in an effort to implement its
obligations under the Armistice Agreement to join the military campaign
against Nazi Germany, projected a force of four divisions but, due to
the lack of equipment and personnel, could actually organize only two,
the 1st (Jaszbereny) and the 6th (Debrecen) infantry divisions (veterans
of the Volunteer Regiment of Buda, disbanded meanwhile by the Soviet
command, formed the cadre of the 1st). These two divisions were sent to
the front, which by this time (April 1945) was in Austria, and by the
time they reached the zone of operations, hostilities ended, and they
saw no action. On May 8, 1945 (armistice day), the 1st division was in
Wiener-Neustadt and the 6th north of Graz, this latter as part of the
27th Soviet Rifle Army, 3rd Ukrainian Front (Tolbukhin). This, as far I
can ascertain, was the extent of Hungarian participation in WWII "with
the Russians," that is, on the Russian side. My data are based primarily
on Gosztonyi, Magyarorszag a masodik vilaghaboruban [Hungary in World
War II], vol. 3, pp. 182-210, and are supported also by the relevant
passages in Magyarorszag Hadtortenete [The Military History of Hungary],
vol.2, and in Kiraly, Honvedsegbol Nephadsereg [From Homeland Defense
Force into People's Army]. Before I forget, Gosztonyi's book was
published by HERP, Munich, in 1984.
        Trianon was clearly the result of Hungary's having fought twice
on the losing side. All the rest is "lyric poetry." (For a variously
hilarious and infuriating story of one of the more destructive and
intellectually pathetic "principles" often quoted in defense of the
Paris Peace Treaties of 1920 and 1947, read Daniel P. Moynihan's
Pandaemonium: Ethnicity in International Politics [New York: Oxford
U.Pr., 1993], chapter 2: "On the 'Self-Determination of Peoples'").

Ivan Marki

vol. 2, and in Kiraly

I am terribly sorry. I mixed up Andras Pellionisz and Peter Nemenyi. I really
wonder why.;) Please substitute the name Pellionisz instead of Nemenyi when
you read my piece on "drivel."

Eva Balogh

I stand up against religious bigotry

It makes me so sad to witness religious bigotry and open disrespect
of others' differing opinion!  There is someone here (forgot her name)
on "Hungary" and "Forum" listings who is obviously hung up on
religion. She keeps harping on the religious background of Armenian
and Georgian immigrants who "re-settle" in Nyiregyhaza. The fact
that newspapers in Hungary fall into the same trap is a weak excuse
for her, since those of us who have lived in America for decades
should have gotten rid of such religious biases and should have been
able develop a perspective on serious government-issues (such as
immigration) without any regard whatsoever on the religious (etc.)
background of refugees.  It is likely that she is obsessed with religion
since she also entertains us with belaboring her religious background
(for several generations, as it was customary in Horthy's time),
subsequently teaching us religious prayer over the Internet. Once
her religious bigotry is displayed, it is not that surprising that same
person goes on repeated record with her explicit disrespect of others'
opinion. History teaches us that religious zealotry often leads to
disrespect of differing opinions. I recommend, therefore, that she
looks into the benefits of developing a "religion-neutral" perspective
(like mine), that is based on separation of church and government in
evaluation of immigration-issues, thus religion (and/or way of life,
gender, race, etc.) of e.g. Armenian and Georgian immigrants is not
even mentioned (as for instance I completely omitted such
references from my words).  If I could make a statement totally free
of any religious reference that "only members of the Hungarian
nation should be allowed to re-settle in the Land of Hungarians" she
should also be able to make an equally "religion-neutral" statement,
even if it diametrically opposes mine, for instance: "Hungary should
be completely wide open to emigres with all religions, equally,
without any preference". (I would of course oppose that suggestion,
however not based on any religious discrimination but based on the
cool reasoning that such unchecked "tsunami" will predictably result
in breaking the economic backbone of Hungary, is extremely likely to
impose vicious social upheavals, and eventually would mean the end
of "Land of Magyars" as we know it)

Religious (or other) discrimination among immigrants who are
foreign to the Hungarian nation is not only unworkable and is
already on the trash-heap of history, but religious zealotry/bias, and
disregard of advice to shed such shameful practices, typically leads
to active discrimination. I would be really horrified for the readers of
"Hungary" if her religious predilection would escalate to her
advocating "Anti-non-Armenian" and "Anti-non-Georgian", or (what
should be considered equally faulty) "Anti-Armenian" and "Anti-
Georgian" sentiments, based on hatred or love of the religion of what
these groups might subscribe to.  While it may be considered
regrettable if she harbors such sentiments as causes for her apparent
religious zealotry, it is certainly true that religion-freaks hardly ever
tender viable political advice -- most especially not in socially
explosive cases such as re-settlement.

In article > ,
 writes:
>
>Many foreign populations, with different nationalities, citizens,
race,
>religion or way of life had attempted to re-settle the land of
Magyars
>in the past.

by the "land of the magyars" i presume, from the tone and content of
the rest of your posting, that you mean "hungary", and presumably the
geographic hungary that was part of the austro-hungarian empire.

the truth of the matter is that the modern hungarians are quite a
mixed people --- as indeed most other populations in europe --- and
their forebears are mostly very much johnny-come-latelies in that
particular region of the world.

you don't have to go very far from the centre of budapest to see
ample
evidence of civilisations there some thousand years (as an order of
magnitude) before the first ofthe hordes arrived from asia.

d.a.

> :Az apostoli hitvalla's
>
> etc. etc. Am I the only one for who these prayers sound totally ludicrous?

Feel free to expose to ridicule some of your own deeply felt beliefs.

I'm sure you've some; perhaps a faith in posterity, or democracy, or
the value of right-reason; perhaps more likely your favorite beer, or
football team, or female super-model. It makes no matter, we've kooks and crank
s
aplenty to mock any belief you might have.

Of course, we may have to settle for mocking your now-you-see-me-now-you-don't
style of public discourse...

--Greg

Fejlesztesek miatt a rendszer tesztelese folyik. Nemsokara kepes, hangos
valtozatban kuldjuk ujsagainkat a kedves olvasoinkhoz.
 Udvozlettel : a szerkesztoseg

This is an test from MET Hungarian Electronic Exchange Journal
sorry.. we will send voice, picture and text e-journal next...

Best Chief Editor
Csaba ORCZAN