Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Copyright (C) HIX
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Cognitively challenged (mind)  29 sor     (cikkei)
2 Wanted: Budapest Apartment (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: New History Book (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
4 Szoba/Lakaskeresis Budapesten (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
5 Paks NPP (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
6 Re: Relative backwardness (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Relative backwardness (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
8 state representative at Auschwitz? (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
9 unsub (mind)  1 sor     (cikkei)
10 Proper names (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Horn and the hotels (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Relative backwardness (mind)  85 sor     (cikkei)
13 Relative backwardness (mind)  57 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Relative backwardness (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Parliamentary representation of ethnic minorities (mind)  123 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Cognitively challenged (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I haven't responded to any of the "cognitively challenged"
writings, my paragraph must have responded to something else.
I am not making assumptions on your capabilities of
digesting alternative ideas - none of my business...

> Eva Durant comments on my posting on "cognitively challenged":
> >> I am ready to come out of the closet. I don't really know what
> "cognitively
> >> challenged" means but if I just use my common sense it just might mean:
> the
> >> person cannot think adequately. It might just mean deficient in cognitive
> >> powers. And if this is the case, Norb's question is most justified.
> >>
> >> Eva Balogh
> >
> >If you are referring to me, I think I have a right to challenge the
> >majority view on this list; that Hungary should copy a market-economy
> >structure which is not capable to provide a viable future.
> Aren't we oversensitive. Moreover, you have not read the postings on this
> subject terribly carefully. Tibor Benke told us practically every day that he
> was "cognitively challenged." No one was talking about you. You didn't say
> that you were cognitively challenged. You simply have a closed mind when it
> comes to Marxism-Leninism. That's all.
> Eva Balogh
+ - Wanted: Budapest Apartment (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

American historian on research visit seeks 2-bedroom apartment with phone
and laundry to rent starting mid-March for myself, my wife, and our
little baby. If anyone has a lead, please let me know. Thanks. -Glen
+ - Re: New History Book (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thanks for mentioning that book. Peter Sugar is Professor Emeritus at the
University of Washington in Seattle. The book is authoritative, academic.

On Wed, 25 Jan 1995, JELIKO wrote:

> The Indiana University Press just issued "A History of Hungary" Peter F.
> Sugar editor, Peter Hanak associate editor, Tibor Frank editorial
> assistant. The price is $17.95 in soft cover.
> Regards,Jeliko
+ - Szoba/Lakaskeresis Budapesten (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article
>Subject: Szoba/Lakaskeresis Budapesten
>Date: Mon, 23 Jan 1995 12:54:10 LOCAL

>Februar kvzepetvl keresek szobat vagy lakast Budapesten kb.10 honapra.
>Minden infoirt halas leszek.
>Tudnilik Becsbvl stipendiummal Budapesten mrom meg a diploma munkamat.
>Ha valaki tud segiteni jelentkezzen az kvvetkezv IMAIL cimen:

>          vagy

>elvre is kvszvnem mindenkinek
>                           ROBERT

>ui. valaszt angolul, nemet|l vagy magyrul is megertem!!
+ - Paks NPP (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>From the Jan, 1995 issue of Nuclear News;
"Paks shows it can be done.
Achievement of the high levels of safety at Type 213 (Russian VVER nuclear)
reactors is dependent on good mamagement of the plants and implementation
over the years of clearly defined programs of improvements. Nowhere is this
more apparent than at Hungary's four unit Paks station,which has been
recording performance and safety indicators as good as any in the world."

I have visited the plant several times in the past years and found that the
above is fairly correct. Generally, they are aware of what further changes
need to be made to make the plants even better and safer. In the past
funding for improvements were available.

+ - Re: Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Durant writes:
> Isn't it also true, that the money-lending policy to
> countries resembles that of loan-sharks?
> It is a fact, that more money is going towards the rich countries
> (that is, their financial institutions) as interest payments, than
> the other way as "assistance of development", isn't it?

Could we have the specifics to support your opinion?

+ - Re: Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Paul writes:
> It hasn't stopped:

>         *Western countries are paying third world countries to
>                 take toxic waste that the first world (FW) deems
>                 too dangerous to store.
>         *FW countries are paying pennies to third world countries (TW)
>                 for their resources of wood (I think Thailand is one
>         *FW countries are paying pennies for beef from South America,
which is
>                 raised on land cleared of tropical rain forrest.
>         *FW countries are paying pennies to Jamaica for boxite, which is
>                 required to produce aluminum.  The cost is well below
>                 what would be fair market value, but it was agreed to 50
>                 ago when Jamaica was desperately poor, as it still is
>                 they do not get the income they are rightly entitled to.

Now Paul, if you cite the specific cases with the actual prices involved
rather than making an "opinion" ststement as fact it will be an interesting

+ - state representative at Auschwitz? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On the first day of ceremonies marking the
50th anniversary of the liberation of the Auschwitz-Birkenau
concentration camp, Nobel Prize laureates and delegates from 27

Does anyone know who from the Hungarian government attended?

+ - unsub (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Please unsubscribe me to this list.  Thank you.
+ - Proper names (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Ferenc rightly pointed out that Tony very deliberately left out all the
Hungarian equivalents of the geographic names he quoted in connection with
institutions of higher learning on the territories of today's Slovakia.
Indeed, quoting the Latin name but not quoting the Hungarian shows a certain
bias. In my writings I always gave three versions, Slovak, Hungarian, and, if
appropriate, German. I think that is a good and fair practice since most of
these towns' population was mixed.

One more little footnote to all these Slovako-centric descriptions of
cultural matters. Please note, that until the end of the seventeenth century,
these were the territories which were not under Turkish occupation. The
territory was called Royal Hungary. Therefore, it was not surprising that
these territories were used to establish colleges, law schools, and high
schools not only during the seventeenth century but also in the eighteenth,
because they were better developed than the central regions under Turkish
occupation. Please also note that the official language of the country was

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Horn and the hotels (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Antony writes:

>>Eva Balogh writes:

> >there seemed to be a deposit of $900,000,00 which is being
>>returned to the American firm. Is it customary to ask for a deposit without a
> >signed contract?

> It does happen.  In recent Australian government tenders there was a
> case when this was employed: the government was sellling off pay-TV
> licences and found that many bidders were not serious.

..(text deleted)

  It is routine practice in major Canadian government tenders.  The
bidders are required to post a bond of a certain percentage to prove
financial responsibility.  Losers get it back. Winner loses it upon
backing out or incompletion of the contract.

    Jan George Frajkor                      _!_
 School of Journalism, Carleton Univ.      --!--
 1125 Colonel By Drive                       |
 Ottawa, Ontario                            /^\
 Canada K1S 5B6                         /^\     /^\
  o: 613 788-7404   fax: 613 788-6690  h: 613 563-4534
+ - Re: Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva writes:

>(2) Tony then gives a long description of "equality" of Slovaks with Germans,
>Hungarians with Germans, and Czechs with Germans. The upshot of this
>discussion that the Slovaks were made "equal" with the Germans the earliest.

Let's put it into perspective. It was not me that put forth the statement:

>It must be embarrassing not to know the names by which the above-mentioned
>cities have been known for centuries in Hungary, whose part they were at the
>times discussed.  They are: ....

Whereupon Eva wrote:

>Let me first say that this whole discussion has nothing whatsoever to do with
>the discussion on hand. Also, if I may say so, most of the people on this
>list (even those who are from those parts) will not even understand what Tony
>is talking about. Just a brief background. Because Eastern Europe was
>economically less advanced, early tradesmen were invited by the Crown (mostly

Eva, thanks for the elucidating background info, however I do not agree with
your premise that the early tradesmen were invited by the Crown because
Eastern (East Central actually ) Europe was economically less advanced.
Are we not forgetting the after-effects of Tartar devastation of 1241 upon
the economy of East Central Europe and the consequent loss of revenue for
the Crown due to the wholesale devastation and depopulation by the Tartars?

>from the Germanies) to settle in, let's say, the Kingdom of Hungary. These
>settlers had to be induced to come east and among many other inducements they
>also enjoyed self-government, including the use of their language, their own
>courts, using German law. So, most of the towns in Eastern Europe were German

Yes indeed. Karl Robert had a progressive mind :-) Germans were good miners,
coined a lot of currency for his coffers, therefore the priviledges afforded
them in self-government AND in the use of the German language (inclusive of
the mature German laws and the names of cities and towns, which is evident
in the names of cities such as Tyrnau (Trnava) and Sillein (Zilina), Kaschau
and Pressburg. Note also the similarities between the German and Slovak names.

>in speech and spirit. However, slowly the natives also emigrated to these
>towns from the countryside until they were either equal in number or outnumber
>ed the German settlers. (Also, there was the normal assimilation. The Germans

However the mature German laws were incorporated into the municipal codes,
their industries flourished (E.g. mining for silver and gold) which amounted
to a rather substantial portion of the Crown's income, eventhough most of it
which was somewhat localized to the hilly area of today's Slovakia.

>first became bilingual and eventually they lost their original mother
>tongue). These native people, Slovaks and Hungarians in this case, eventually
>demanded a say in city government. However, this has nothing to do with the
>discussion on hand

On the contrary, the mature German laws introduced by the German settlers
formed the basis for the municipal laws of the early cities placing them on
an equal footing with the laws of German cites and wherein lively trade
existed between the German settlers and their past homeland doing business
in East/Central Europe was not at a disadvantage with respect to the West.

In reference to Ferenc's contention, that it must be embarrasing not to know
that Trnava was known as Tyrnau in German and that in the 1480's the Germans
had half of the places on the city council, the Slovaks had the other half,
seems to me that Slovak business enterprises would not have been at any
disadvatage in doing business with the local German enterprises, who in turn
were actually doing a lot of business with enterprises in Germany.

The names Tyrnau and Trnava being similar (as one might expect of two indo-
european languages ), whereas Hungarians mostly arrived after Mohacs (and
the subsequent Turkish occupation of the Lower Land) and promptly started
buying-up town houses, which however the German and Slovak gentry resisted
for a number of years, until in 1551 Ferdinand of Habsburg made Germans,
Slovaks and Magyars in Trnava completely equal.  Thereafter successively
a German, a Slovak and a Magyar was elected mayor, representation in the city
council was completely equal and perhaps the name Nagyszombat became more
widely utilized thereafter, but that was not necessarily the case previously
in Trnava or Zilina, since the Slovaks of Zilina (Sillein) achieved parity
in municipal representation with the Germans already in 1381, whereas
Magyars of Buda achieved parity with the Germans only in 1438 (57 years later
than the Slovaks of Zilina), in Kolozsvar/Cluj only in 1458 (77 years later)
whereas in Old Town Prague the Czechs did so already in 1413, the point being
that the municipal representation was not necessarily Magyar, nor were the
names of cities, towns or villages, since the Magyars did not arrive in large
numbers until after Mohacs and it took a Habsburg (Ferdinand) to establish
the Magyars on a equal basis with the Germans and the Slovaks.
+ - Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thomas Breed writes:

>It's a shame that someone so prestigious as yourself has to approach issues
>like this adversarialy.  People should approach history as we approach a
>football match:  hoping to win.

First of all, I don't think that I ought to be ashamed for my approach to
discussions on this list or any other. Second, history should not be
approached as a football match. Hypotheses ought to be supported by facts. If
the facts are not there, you are wrong. Tony's admission that an earlier
attempt at establishing a university floundered because of lack of funds is
not helping his case. That's all. Third, following my alma mater's
classification I don't consider history a social science. Political science
and sociology can be classified as such but not history. (And please, don't
start a long discussion about this. It has nothing to do with Hungary per

By quoting Charles Jelavich here you are changing the gist of your argument.
You no longer deny that there was a progression from West/South to East in
economic and, subsequently, cultural and political development, now you are
arguing about what constitutes Eastern Europe. Well, let's talk about this. I
don't like the term "Eastern Europe" for the very same reasons Charles
Jelavich doesn't like it, and not just Charles Jelavich but practically
everybody else who have been involved with the area. Eastern Europe "came
into being" after 1945 to denote the countries which had been occupied by the
Soviet Union and eventually became its satellites. Programs called Russian
and East European Studies sprung up all over in England and the United States
and in them they lumped together the Soviet Union (Russia, to be more
precise) and the "socialist" countries. But there was always some unease
about all this. There was Yugoslavia which was not a satellite country. Also,
only few people would consider Eastern Germany part of Eastern Europe. The
people of "Eastern Europe" also disliked the term. It is only lately that
Hungarians are actually using the term instead of calling the area Central
Europe (and Central Europe would also include Germany in this case). And
there were always the Baltic countries--we didn't quite know what to do with
them. And if we include Yugoslavia, Albania, and Bulgaria, how can we leave
out Greece? In short, the term is pretty useless but, I am afraid, we are
stuck with it. Moreover, it is unlikely that the Russian and East European
Programs will be dismantled just because of the collapse of the Soviet
Empire. So, we will still have the ridiculous situation that, for example,
the one of the two languages the students in the program (at least at my
institution) had to pass was Russian, regardless whether the student was
interested in Czechoslovakia, Hungary, or Romania, on the one hand, or Poland
and let's say Bulgaria, on the other. In the last two cases, the knowledge of
Russian was defenseable, in the former three it wasn't. The cultural
influences in the Czech lands and in the former Kingdom of Hungary were
mostly German. In Moldavia and Wallachia, it was French. If you were
concentrating on Russian Poland, of course, you needed Russian. But not

So, indeed, let's dispense with the term "Eastern Europe" or "Central
Europe." Let's just say that there was a continuum in economic development,
by and large, from south/west to east. Of course, you can always come up with
exceptions. It is not a hard and fast rule but it is, BY AND LARGE, an
acceptable formula.

Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Relative backwardness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh wrote:

: I don't consider history a social science

Thank goodness.  I was starting to feel alone.

+ - Re: Parliamentary representation of ethnic minorities (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Tony, as far as legislation is concerned, the current situation concerning
parliamentary representation of minorities in Hungary and Slovakia is essen-
tially the same. Both in Hungary and Slovakia, the (parliamentary) electoral
law doesn't contain a single word about minorities: minority parties take
part in the elections under the same conditions as all the other parties do.
In both countries, only those parties make it to the parliament that receive
a certain minimum portion of all votes (in Hungary 4%, in Slovakia 5% for a
single party, 7% for a coalition). In Hungary the minority organizations/
parties (even altogether) are not able to meet this requirement (they tried
it in the 1990 elections, in coalition with some other organizations, but
didn't succeed). In Slovakia it happens to be the case that the Hungarian
minority is able to gain a parliamentary representation even under these
circumstances, simply because it is large enough. But no other minority is
able to do the same. Your statement that

T> ... minorities in Hungary have not as yet been able to achieve an
T> _elected_ Parliamentary representation, whereas in the other successor
T> states the minorities are represented in Parliament.

is false. In Slovakia minorities in general are _not_ represented in the
parliament: in fact, _no_ minority is except for the Hungarian one.

Further you write:

T> Ukrainian/Ruthenian, Polish and German deputies were represented in the
T> Co-existance party of 1993 in Slovakia, and the Co-existance platform did
T> make mention of them, however the Polish, German and Ukrainian/Ruthenian
T> deputies had opted out of the Co-existance program sometime prior to the
T> 1994 elections for reasons unknown to me. However it cannot be said that
T> Coexistance did not partake of Parliamentary representation prior to the
T> time that the Ukrainian/Ruthenian,Polish, German deputies opted out of it

Sorry, but this has nothing to do with the issue we are talking about. What
we are talking about is whether _each_ minority can achieve parliamentary
representation of "of its own choosing" (as you stated it), and whether
there are any _legislative guarantees_ that ensure this. Of course, both in
Hungary and in Slovakia minority candidates can join some strong party and
get a seat more or less as a present. Say, in Slovakia you need some 17000
votes for a seat in the parliament. Now, there are some 3000 Polish and 5500
German people here (official 1991 data), so if a representant of the Polish
or German minority made it to the parliament as, say, a Coexistence candida-
te, would that really be a Polish/German minority parliamentary representa-
tion? A man necessarily elected mainly by Hungarians? Or is it enough that a
party (even the Coexistence) _declares_ that it represents some other mino-
rity's interests? What if Meciar then declares that HZDS represents the Roma
minority? Would that be a minority representation "of own choosing"?

It was exactly this what they wanted to solve in Hungary: to create a
mechanism that ensures that _each_ minority achieves its _own_ parliamentary
representation. The basic idea was that for each minority, one special
minority candidate would need only a symbolic number of votes (1000-2000)
for a seat in the parliament. This was then criticized by some minorities,
as they considered the threshold too high. Another objection was that this
scheme would not _grant_ parliamentary representation for all minorities:
what if some of them would not meet even these criteria? On the other hand,
if you specify no threshold and grant _automatic_ representation for all
minorities, then it may happen that the elected candidate represents almost
nobody. From the non-minority viewpoint the objection was that there would
be deputies in the parliament who in the elections received significantly
less votes than the others, but who in the parliament would have one vote as
everybody else. In the end, the amendment to the electoral law that would
have implemented some version of the above failed to pass in parliament. So
now the situation is that the Hungarian constitution states that the minori-
ties have the right to parliamentary representation, but the electoral law
doesn't contain a mechanism realizing this right. This is an unpleasant
thing, but on the basis of what should it be criticized by countries where
it has not even been considered to make a step in this direction? The Slova-
kian constitution doesn't talk about the right to parliamentary representa-
tion, and the electoral law doesn't grant any either. Is this anything bet-
ter? Your statement that "... [Hungary] doesn't even guarantee the most ba-
sic of all democratic principles for its own ethnic minorities, that is par-
liamentary representation in its own state" is ridiculous: in fact, a scheme
that would _grant_ parliamentary representation for all minorities would be
quite unique.

Tony then continues:

T> ... rather the implementation of the Nationality Law number 77, which
T> came into force on January 1, 1994 is being disputed in the Hungarian
T> Parliament. The Hungarian Parlaiment is contesting the implementation of
T> Nationality Law number 77, the very law which is supposed to be a model
T> for the demands of the Hungarian ethnic minorities in surrounding count-
T> ries.

Now, what this Nationality Law is about:

"(1994 Annual Report on Human Rights by the U.S State Department)

The new law on ethnic and minority rights, approved by Parliament in July,
legally establishes the concept of the collective rights of minorities and
states that minorities need special rights in order to preserve their ethnic
identities. It explicitly permits organized forms of limited self-government
in areas where ethnic groups constitute a majority and states that the
establishment of self-governing bodies must be made possible in localities
where an ethnic group constitutes less than a majority of the population.
Further, the new law permits associations, movements, and political parties
based upon an ethnic or national character and mandates unrestricted use of
ethnic languages."

What about the implementation?

"RFE/RL Daily Report No. 234, 13 December 1994

Ethnic Minorities Office Chairman Janos Wolfart says that all
Hungary's 13 minorities--with the exception of the
Ukrainians--requested the creation of minority self-governments,
MTI reported on 12 December. Some 660 direct elections for
minorities were held in the 11 December municipal elections, 67
percent of them for the Roma ethnic minority; and 470 minority
self-governments were set up. In addition, five ethnic Germans and
three ethnic Slovaks were elected mayors. Wolfart called the
initiative a success, noting that it also received strong support
from Hungarians living in minority-inhabited areas. -- Alfred
Reisch, RFE/RL, Inc."

So, are you still claiming that the Hungarian Parliament is contesting the
implementation of this law? And if you want, then in this context -
minority self-governments - you can rightly say that "Hungary deviates
from the other successor states" (your words), as such self-governments are
unimaginable in Slovakia, Romania, etc.