On Thu, 8 Sep 1994 01:50:49 GMT > said:
>>
>>--Wait a minute, you two!  While this is technically true, when was the
>>last time a British monarch actually could do this?  Certainly not since
>>sometime before Victoria!
>
>Not true. the new agreements are in (i think) the statute of westminster
>of 1948.

--True!  The question had do with the right of the Queen to appoint
the Prime Minister of the British parliament.  It is only a technical
privilege.  She appoints the person designated by the party that
wins and has done since before Victoria.  I'd have to dig a bit
to find out the last PM that was appointed by a monarch in defiance
of Parliament, but I suspect that it was before Walpole, when the
term "Prime Minister" first came to have political meaning.  In short,
I don't think that ANY person known as Prime Minister was ever
appointed in defiance of Parliament.  English readers please verify.

--The Tories won in 1991 in the "first past the post" election system
used in Britain.  Without proportional representation, most British
Prime Ministers end up being elected by a minority vote.  Unpopular
PMs usually don't cause rioting in the streets simply because there
is a constitutional way of unseating them when they lose their
political effectiveness.

 in australia at least, the queen, through her representative the
>governor-general, still has that right, last exercised in november 1975.

--Don't think so, Imi.  In the words of the Statute of Westminster of
1931, "no law hereafter made by the Parliament of the United Kingdom
shall extend to any of the said Dominions as part of the law of that
Dominion otherwise than at the request and at the consent of that
Dominion."  I don't have a history of Australia handy, but I suggest
that if the Queen exercised any power, it was more ceremonial than
actual, and that any decision to remove anybody was really taken
locally.  Can you give me the details relevant to 1975?

Charles

>
> If you disagree with something that a religion teaches, do not argue that
> you think they are wrong because of values taught be current cultural
> trends.  Argue based on what you have taken the time to study.
>
> Paul Gelencser

What I detest is the notion, that without religion one is not able
to make personal/social/moral decisions (how to live, how to avoid
making others unhappy etc) Eva Durant

On Wed, 7 Sep 1994 21:58:31 EDT paul said:
>>35, but that I'm sorry I thought that.  It only matters because the rules are
>>different for people after 35.
>
>
>What rules - sorry for my denseness (density?).
>
--You're not dense.  My rules.  I tend to be more tolerant of people
under 35.  After 35, things count.  Under 35, mistakes and idiosyncracies
must be overlooked unless they are heinous crimes.  Generally, I mistrust
the young.  I look for doctors with gray hair, because I value experience.
I don't admit women into my fantasy life unless they are at least 40, but
don't mention this to my wife, even though fantasy is all that there is!

The above statement is simply my explanation of the inner state of mind
of most of us who think of ourselves as Old Bastards.  To me,
Curmudgeon is a term of respect that one earns over time, not a put-down.

I forgot to mention, I am now a practicing member of the Episcopal Church.
I even serve as altar boy at the 8 a. m. service, which is attended
primarily by a bunch of other retired university types, most of whom
I would describe as devout skeptics.

Again, this is probably more than you wanted to know, but the
computer makes it easy to run on and on and on...

Yours,

Charles

The great dictator may be dead and gone but intolerance on part of the
authorities toward minorities, who make up more than a tenth of the
population in Rumania, is worse than before. This news
flash from the Hungarian Human Rights Foundation, which I forward
verbatim, should be of interest to the Discussion Group.

C.K. Zoltani

________________________________________________________________________



HHRF ALERT....

        Rumanian Chamber of Deputies
        Adopts Discriminatory Education Bill

On June 23, 1994, the Rumanian Chamber of Deputies adopted a new
Education Bill by a vote of 206 to 39 with 25 abstentions. In its
present form, the bill falls far short of international standards
regarding the rights of minorities to native-language education. The
Bill also evidences an almost total disregard for what minorities
themselves find would "create favorable conditions to persons belonging
to national minorities to express their characteristics and develop
their own culture, language, religion, traditions and customs"
(Resolution 47/135, Article 4.2 of the General Assembly of the United
Nations, dated December 18, 1992): In July 1993, the Council of National
Minorities unanimously approved the Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in
Rumania's (DAHR) proposals regarding provisions on native-language
education to be included in the Bill and submitted them to the
government. With the exception of three minor provisions, however, none
of the minority recommendations were actually adopted. The Bill's
discriminatory measures resurrect the same discredited policy of forced
assimilation implemented by the Ceausecu regime, in practically the same
terminology. In some cases, the Bill is a retrograde step when compared
to even the communist-era laws.

Native language education is probably the single most important element
necessary for the cultural survival of a national minority and its
elimination was the primary aim of Ceausecu's assimilationist policies.
The Rumanian Senate is currently scheduled to debate the Bill in Fall
1994. Should it adopt the Bill in its present form, the result would be
the gradual but total decline of native-language proficiency in the
ranks of national minorities.

Article 32, Paragraph 3 of the Rumanian Constitution declares that
"National minorities have the right of native-language education at all
levels and forms of education". Although Article 116 of the Educational
Bill incorporates this text, principle itself is violated, restricted
and contradicted by the following provisions of the Bill:

8.1 "Education at all levels is in the Rumanian language."

A proposed amendment adding the text "as well as in the language of
national minorities and languages in international circulation" was
rejected. The constitutional right to education in minority languages is
therefore restricted to only those few cases permitted by the Education
Bill.

The article is in flagrant contradiction to Recommedation 1201 (1993) of
the Council of Europe which states that: "Every person belonging to a
national minority shall have the right to learn his/her mother tongue
and to receive an education in his/her mother tongue at an appropriate
number of schools and of state educational and training establishments,
located in accordance with the geographical distribution of the
minority." The Hungarians in Rumania comprise one of the largest
national minority in Europe numbering approximately 2.5 million and
their legitimate needs are neglected by the bill.

8.3 "Learning of, and proficiency in, the Rumanian language-- as the
official language of the state -- is compulsory for every Rumanian
citizen irrespective of nationality."

This provision potentially paves the way for other rights violations and
restrictions. The "proficiency" requirement could result in the
elimination of the right to an interpreter in official matters (for
example, trials) for those who do not speak Rumanian fluently. The
teaching of a language can be mandated and implemented by law, however,
ensuring "proficiency" would require instituting a host of other
regulations. Moreover, the danger exists that elderly people and others
who are not proficient in Rumanian will be denied the right to equal
treatment in public administration and before the law.

9.2. "Officially recognized churches can organize their own educational
system in order to train their own personnel, as provided by law."

This article violates Paragraph 32 of the CSCE Copenhagen Concluding
Document which states that "persons belonging to national
minorities...have the right...to establish and maintain their own
educational, cultural and religious institutions.." The provision
rejects the rights of churches to fully reestablish and reorganize their
denominational schools limiting their educational activity to only their
personnel. Hungarian, German and Islamic churches historically played
significant role in education by maintaining a centuries-old network of
non-religious schools which trained an important segment of minority
society.

118.2. "The history of Rumanians and the geography of Rumania are to be
taught in the Rumanian language at the secondary level and according to
the same curriculum and textbooks used by Rumanian classes. In primary
education these subjects are taught in the mother-tongue".

This article bans the minority-language teaching of history and
geography at the secondary level. Students are taught the history of
Rumanians and not the history of Rumania. Accordingly, ethnic Rumanian
children grow up knowing very little about national minorities and their
history thereby reducing the chances for a more tolerant generation to
develop. This provision is a direct continuation of Ceausecu-era
policies: teaching of geography and history in Rumanian exclusively was
only introduced during the 1980s.

120.1. "In legal, technical, agricultural, commercial educational units
vocational training is in the Rumanian language, ensuring the
proficiency in mother-tongue terminology."

This article bans minority-language vocational training in the above
mentioned areas and is a serious regression even compared to the early
communist period (until the 1980s), when vocational training also
occured in the languages of the minorities. In fact, a straight-line
continuance exists between Ceausecu policies which gradually reduced the
number of institutions teaching in minority-languages, and the aim of
the Article to eliminate the few remaining vocational classes and
schools teaching in minority-languages. Hence, it violates the right of
persons belonging to national minorities to have access to jobs and
professions in their native language as stipulated in ILO Convention No.
111 and its 1991 Recommendation to the Rumanian government.

121. "In higher education - if requested and provided by law groups and
sections for pedagogical and artistic training can be established in the
language of minorities."

This provision restricts education to only two areas, totally omitting
other subject areas and does not ensure the native-language training of
specialists required in other fiels. Accordingly, all existing subjects
currently taught in minority languages at the Babes-Bolyai University in
Cluj will be eliminated in the future.

The Hungarian-language Bolyai University had existed in various forms
for 400 years until its forced merger with the Rumanian Babes University
in 1959, an event setting off the systematic elimination of Hungarian
higher education in Rumania. Hungarians' aspiration to have this
institution restored to its former state in order to rebuild
Transylvanian Hungarian culture is therefore defeated.

162.1. "The assets of state education consists of all personal property
and real estate of the Ministry of Education, as well as of educational
and scientific research institutes and units, either owned at the moment
the law becomes effective, or gained as well as regained after said
date."

162.3. "Personal property and real estate of state education can not be
assigned or alienated."

The last two articles deprive the historical churches of national
minorities from the opportunity to regain their schools and educational
institutions illegally appropriated under communism. This is an example
of overt discrimination against minorities, since many properties
belonging to the Greek-Catholic Church (Uniates), consisting mainly of
ethnic Rumanians, were returned following 1989, but such was not the
case with minority-churches.

                ****

Note: In addition to ethnic Hungarian parliamentarians, representatives
of the German and Armenian minorities voted against the Bill.

>>For example, for a Christian, killing is wrong, PERIOD!
>the only conclusion i can draw from that is that the christian churches
>have been devoid of christians for centuries. i mean if i look at the
>conquest of the extra-european colonies or the inquisition, or the
>religious wars or the consecration by priests of the machines of war, i
>cannot see that the official christian churches abide by your categorical
>imperative.

I cannot remember any Christian church making conquest of extra-european
 colonies,
can you?  The fact that Christians did it does not mean it is approved of by
Christianity.  Though there were periods of time during which chruches did
approve of it, there were also eras during which churches condemned it.  When
the Catholic church gave approval to governments to colonize peoples, it was
with the understanding that the government help and allow the Church to spread
Christianity to those "savages".  Surely a shameful enterprise, but with some
important redeeming qualities.  The fact that, for example, the Church approved
of the slavery of African is unfortunate, but the Church did not commit that
crime.

As to the 'consecration by priests of the machines of war', it is accepted by
most if not all Christian denominations that war, and yes killing, can be
justified if the cause is right - the Allies resisting and crushing the
Axis powers for example.  Was it wrong for Christian American soldiers to
go to Europe to fight in either world war?

I will grant that my 'PERIOD' has some caviots, but that point that I made is
still valid.  Christianity provides a set  of standards of behavior which are
eternal.
PERIOD! :-)

Paul Gelencser

Eva Durant,

>What I detest is the notion, that without religion one is not able
>to make personal/social/moral decisions (how to live, how to avoid
>making others unhappy etc) Eva Durant

Several years ago I had a discussion with my priest (Catholic) about the
salvation of people who have not been exposed to Christianity - people in
rural India or Africa, maybe.  He explained that the main thing is for people
to live with respect for others, and contemplate seriously before taking
serious actions.  The reason for religion is to teach people how to live - as
a pillar of moral support.  If you live this way because you are a good person,
or because your culture has taught you to live this way, the bottom line is tha
t
you are living a good life, which is what God wants.  The notion you may have
encountered is that people make moral decisions in spite of what their
religion teaches.  That some people adopt a "new" religion, since it is
easier to satisfy.  God did not intent life to be without challenges and
struggle, but he does intend for people to meet those challenges.

Paul

Does anyone know the current status of the Slovak dam on the
Duna (hell if I can remember how to spell thast word - Gabczekova?)

Will they allow enough water to pass around for Hungarians
down stream to be able to farm?  Has any world organization
(the World Court?) takes any actions against it?

Paul Gelencser

Subject: Translation
From: EvaB459762
Date: 29 Aug 94 15:31:28 GMT
In article > ,  writes:
>Kenneth Nyirady asked the other day about a good, idiomatic translation
of
>the Hungarian expression "nem  tala'ltak meghallgata'sra." Kenneth
thought of
>"fell on  deaf ears," which seems to be close enough. The only trouble I
see
>with it that "to fall on deaf ears" has an exact Hungarian equivalent:
>"su2ket fu2lekre tala1lt." Perhaps a simple translation like "it didn't
find
>acceptance," would be better. Because "to fall on deaf ears" is stronger
than
>"nem tala'ltak meghallgata'sra." But perhaps Gabor Fencsik, whose
>translations from Hungarian I admire, might be able to come up with
something
>better. Eva Balogh

what about "found no resonance"?

d.a.

On Thu, 8 Sep 1994 20:07:48 EDT paul said:
           The fact that Christians did it does not mean it is approved of by
>Christianity.

--Well, I'd be among the first to say that the institutional church has
a lot to answer for.  But in the examples that you give, I'd have to
say that the old phrase "Silence gives consent" applies.

>of the slavery of African is unfortunate, but the Church did not commit that
>crime.
>
--But in this part of the country at least, they did not even label it
by the mildly negative term of unfortunate.  The church kept its
collective head down and went along with slavery.

>As to the 'consecration by priests of the machines of war', it is accepted by
>most if not all Christian denominations that war, and yes killing, can be
>justified if the cause is right - the Allies resisting and crushing the
>Axis powers for example.  Was it wrong for Christian American soldiers to
>go to Europe to fight in either world war?
>
--The Quakers are all conscientious objectors to war in general.

               Christianity provides a set  of standards of behavior which are
>eternal.

--Too general a statement, I think, although the prohibition against
murder is very clear and permanent.  Maybe the best standards are those
that have to do with acceptance, forgiveness, and charity in attitude.

Charles
>
>Paul Gelencser

On Thu, 8 Sep 1994 20:39:59 EDT paul said:
>Eva Durant,
>
>>What I detest is the notion, that without religion one is not able
>>to make personal/social/moral decisions (how to live, how to avoid
>>making others unhappy etc) Eva Durant
>
--I'm with you, Durant Eva, one can make personal/social/ and moral
decisions without religion.  Charles.

>Several years ago I had a discussion with my priest (Catholic) about the
>salvation of people who have not been exposed to Christianity - people in
>rural India or Africa, maybe.  He explained that the main thing is for people
>to live with respect for others, and contemplate seriously before taking
>serious actions.  The reason for religion is to teach people how to live - as
>a pillar of moral support.  If you live this way because you are a good person
,
>or because your culture has taught you to live this way, the bottom line is
>that
>you are living a good life, which is what God wants.  The notion you may have
>encountered is that people make moral decisions in spite of what their
>religion teaches.  That some people adopt a "new" religion, since it is
>easier to satisfy.  God did not intent life to be without challenges and
>struggle, but he does intend for people to meet those challenges.
>
--Paul, let me play devil's advocate.  Is the central purpose of Christianity
to promote the good life?  Or is it to express a belief system that one has
come to suspect may be true and compelling even if it is extremely
uncomfortable and illogical at times?  Loaded question?  Sure.  But
Christianity isn't centrally about moral codes, is it?

Charles

Subject: Translation
From: EvaB459762
Date: 29 Aug 94 15:31:28 GMT
In article > ,  writes:
>Kenneth Nyirady asked the other day about a good, idiomatic translation
of
>the Hungarian expression "nem  tala'ltak meghallgata'sra." Kenneth
thought of
>"fell on  deaf ears," which seems to be close enough. The only trouble I
see
>with it that "to fall on deaf ears" has an exact Hungarian equivalent:
>"su2ket fu2lekre tala1lt." Perhaps a simple translation like "it didn't
find
>acceptance," would be better. Because "to fall on deaf ears" is stronger
than
>"nem tala'ltak meghallgata'sra." But perhaps Gabor Fencsik, whose
>translations from Hungarian I admire, might be able to come up with
something
>better. Eva Balogh

what about "found no echo"?

d.a. wrote:

>in some cases recently, we have seen governements decide that former
>constitutions were invalid and reverse decisions of more than forty
>years standing.

Would you provide examples?  I'd like to know more about this.

Paul Gelencser

Charles,

>Further, the welfare state is basically a capitalist creation.

Without too much carrying on, can you explain why, and how?

Marc, I thought, had an interesting point, and I too am curious as to the
answer.
>Now if the protestant work ethic started in Northern Europe than how would
>one explain the transformation of these Northern European nations into welfare
>states?.......marc


Paul Gelencser

d.a.,

>i'd like to hear some cogent argument to support the view that religious
>education is a good idea, without resorting to religious arguments.

You speak as if religion were like some philosophical topic which can be
 accepted
or rejected with the appropriate argument.  You miss the point of religious
belief - it is a matter of faith, as oppoed to some economic or social theory.
The only physical proof possible to offer, and it should be sufficient, are the
miricles performed by Jesus, which are attested to be witnesses.  Other than
 that,
you will only see the working of God, in the achievements which you make, that
 you
know you are no capable of.

Paul Gelencser

OK, does anyone in the New Jersey/New York area know where to get Pick/Pik
salami?

Paul

Dear Reader,
We hve technical problem yet.
I hope we will start in October
( sorry....)
Best,
Dr ORCZAN, Zsolt
MET publisher5

___MAGYAR ELEKTRONIKUS TOZSDE____________________________HU-ISSN_1216-0229
MET                                  Copyright  1994. IV. evfolyam /volume
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
   A kormanyules temakoreibol...

   A kormany elfogadta a potkoltsegvetes tervezetet, es igy az mar a
jovo heten a parlament ele kerulhet.

   Oktober 1-rol januar 1-re modositottak az also AFA-kulcsok emeleset.

          Kosane Kovacs Magda
   Beruhazasi adokedvezmeny bevezeteserol targyaltak a kabinet
ulesen, es megvizsgaljak ennek lehetoseget.

   A nemreg felallitott energiahivatal a korabban hangoztatott 40
szazalekos aremeles helyett ennel kevesebbel, de emelni kivan.
Ehez kapcsolodik, hogy a lakossag reszere a kabinet kompenzaciot
tervez.
   Mezogazdasagunk versenykepessegenek megtartasa celjabol import
vam-ememles lehetosegerol targyaltak,
   A mezogazdasagi minimum-ado eltorleset elfogadta mind a kormany,
mind az erdekegyezteto tanacs.
   A nyugdijak rendezeserol targyalva elfogadta a Kabinet, hogy meg
iden, es visszamenolgesen januar 1-ig, 8 szazalekos nyugdijemelesre
kerulhet sor. Erre a kormany garanciat vallal, de meg egyeztetni
kell, mennyit visel ebbol a Nyugdij Onkormanyzat, es mennyit a
koltsegvetes.
   Hataroztak arrol, hogy a szolidaritasi alapbol 2.1 mrd Ft-ot a
munkanelkuli alapba atcsoportositas torenik.
   A noi nyugdijkorhatar emeleserol megallapitottak, hogy csak
fokozatos bevezeteserol lehet szo, de errol mindenkeppen  -1995-tol
kezdodoen- sort kell keriteni.
   Az allami illetve reszben allami tulajdonu vallalatok vezetoinek
magas berezese illetve a lakossagot irritalo magas vegkielegitesek
ugyet is megtargyalta a kormany. Mivel ez joggal valo visszaeles,
ezert felhatalmaztak a szaktarcakat, hogy ilyen esetben kotelezo
jelleggel vizsgalatot inditsanak. A kormany ezert a jogellenes,
csalard elbocsatasokert felelos vezetoket felelossegre vonja - a
szakminiszteriumokon keresztul.

  Vilagosi Gabor BM allamtitkar elmondta, hogy az allami vagyonnal
kezeleset ellenorzo rendszert allitanak fel.
  A privatizacio tisztessegevel kapcsolatos ellenorzesre bizottsagot
hoznak reszre Kozpenzek Felhasznalasat es Privatizaciot Vizsgalo
Bizottsag neven.
  A kozponti kozpenzek, elkulonitett allami alapok ugyeben
felszolitottak az Allami Szamvevoszeket, hogy inditsanak vizsgalatot.
Felkertek a legfobb ugyeszt, hogy vegyen reszt a munkalatokban.
  Ezenkivul felhatalmaztak a penzugyminisztert, vizsgalja felul,
illetve ellenorizze a privatizacioval valo visszaelesek, illetve
ado,- es vam-ugyek teruleten elofordulo vagyoni hatranyokozassat.
   BM, IgM, PM tarcak vezetoibol es a Minisztterelnoki Hivatal
Kozigazgatasi allamtitkarabol, tehat kormanytagokbol allo felsobb
bizottsagot hoznak letre. Ennek feladata egyreszt az ellenorzest
vegzo szervek munkajanak felugyelete, masreszt a kozvelemeny
folytonos tajekoztatasa.

A kormany hatalyon kivul helyezte, a Magyar Honvedseg (nem
Nephadsereg!} Vezerkara, es a HM osszeolvadasarol keszult korabbi
rendeletet.

A kabinet tajekoztatast hallgatott meg a Balaton helyzeterol, melyet
Baja Ferenc adott elo.
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

       M     M   EEEEE   TTTTTTT        1994. IV. volume /evfolyam.
       M M M M   E          T               HU ISSN  1216-0229
       M  M  M   EEEE       T          HUNGARIAN  ELECTRONIC EXCHANGE
       M     M   E          T               ELECTRONIC JOURNAL
       M     M   EEEEEE     T          BUDAPEST,Pf.311. H-1536.HUNGARY
              Kiado/Publisher: dr.Orczan, Zsolt L.
             Foszerkeszto/ Editor  Orczan, Csaba S.

MET_________________________      ______________________MET