Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Copyright (C) HIX
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 'Mare' Romania? (mind)  113 sor     (cikkei)
2 Louis Elteto's advice (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
3 Green Party (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
4 Ujvidek (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
5 Dr. Imre SZECSODY (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
6 ORSAY / SZIGETI / SPUHLER / GESS (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
7 FUDALA family (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
8 EBERTH / CSORBA family (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
9 HL-Wilson vs. Holbrooke (mind)  77 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Harangozo's harangue (mind)  71 sor     (cikkei)
11 Harangozo's harangue (mind)  2 sor     (cikkei)
12 not even vaguely re: Harangozo's harangue (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
13 not even vaguely re: Harangozo's harangue (mind)  2 sor     (cikkei)
14 BADMOUTHING HUNGARY (mind)  58 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Harangozo's harangue (mind)  48 sor     (cikkei)

+ - 'Mare' Romania? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

It is always bad news when extremist organizations use North America and
western Europe to promote their goals.  The Romanian 'mare' may become a
magyar nightmare.

This article was the feature story in the Kitchener-Waterloo Record
yesterday.  The headline reads, "Fascist 'nest' feared", "Cultural
organizations accused of being front for Romanian Iron Guard".  It was
datelined Hamilton, Ontario and was written by Andrew Dreschel and Casey


An international fascist movement with origins in violent anti-Semitism and
ethnic nationalism is using the Hamilton area as a secret base.
        It is also reported to have associates in Kitchener, Toronto and
        Several sources have linked the Iron Guard with Hamilton's Romanian
Cultural Association and the association's private campground in
Flamborough, a rural community bordering on Cambridge, which is used as a
meeting and recruitment centre for the Iron Guard. The campground has
received more that $100,000 in provincial funding.
        A three-month Hamilton Spectator investigation discovered the
Hamilton group is linked to a international network of Iron Guard "nests"
spanning North America and Europe.
        Also known as the Legion of the Archangel Michael, the Guard began
in Romania in 1927 during the social upheaval that saw the rise of fascism
in Italy and Nazism in Germany.
        The movement's main goal seems to be the recovery of power in
Romania. Its ideological touchstones are a peculiar combination of racial
and religious fanaticism, xenophobic nationalism and rabid anti-communism.
        The man at the centre of the Hamilton activities of the Iron Guard
(also called "the legion") is George Balasu, owner and editor of
Hamilton-based Cuvantul Romanesc, a Romanian-language newspaper. Balasu
plays a leading role in the Guardist movement both nationally and
internationally, according to sources inside the Guard and the association.
        An outspoken anti-communist, Balasu denies any involvement in the
Guard and insists he and the association are the target of a communist plot.
"It's dead. It was 1938 (when the Guard) was disbanded," he said.
        The association denies all allegations, insisting it is merely an
organization to promote Romanian culture and traditions.


        George Donison, current president of the Romanian Cultural
Association, denies there are any legion activities at the Flamborough camp.
        But Rev. Nicolae Zelea, a longtime member and a former director of
the association, which was formed in 1957, says the cultural association's
founders "mostly were legionnaires."
        The investigation also discovered:

-At least 24 people involved in the Flamborough camp, including Balasu and
Zelea, were identified as connected to the Iron Guard by the Simon
Wiesenthal Centre, an international human rights organization that monitors
neo-Nazi movements.
-An expert from Prague who monitors Eastern European extremist movements
cites Hamilton as one of the three most active centres of Iron Guard
activity, along with Freiburg, Germany, and Madrid, Spain. He also connects
Balasu and his newspaper to the Iron Guard.
-The Hamilton nest is linked to Iron Guardists in Romania, Spain, Germany,
Florida, New York, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit and Montreal.
-Petre Popescu, a longtime associate of the camp and a former director of
the Cuvantul Romanesc newspaper, is identified by the Wiesenthal Centre as a
former officer in the Nazi Waffen-SS. He was also named in a 1955 U.S.
Federal Bureau of Investigation report as an Iron Guard member.
-The association maintained close ties with Archbishop Valerian Trifa, a
self-confessed Iron Guardist who died in 1987. Trifa, who is named as an
Iron Guard leader in U.S. military intelligence and FBI documents obtained
by the Spectator, helped incite a pogrom against Jews in Bucharest in 1941.
During a three-day rampage, Iron Guardists descended on the Jewish quarter
in Bucharest, killing 140 people.
        Historically, the Iron Guard pursued its goals through
assassination, extortion, blackmail, beatings, intimidation and propaganda.
After the Second World War, remnants of the movement set up operations abroad.


        The legion's history of violence in war-time Romania is well
documented, but little is known about current activities. There is no
evidence the Iron Guard is now engaged in violence. However, police have
investigated possible Guard links to two high-profile killings in North
America in the last decade. No charges have been laid and the murders remain
        On Feb. 17, 1986 Corelius Dragan-Dima, publisher of a
Romanian-language newspaper, was shot and stabbed to death at the door of
his Etobicoke apartment by a young Romanian-speaking man. Dragan published
articles critical of the Iron Guard and was believed to be on the verge of
publishing the names of top legionnaires in Canada.
        Police make a link between the Etobicoke slaying and a rifle attack
on the Romanian consulate in Montreal three weeks earlier. A Romanian trade
official was wounded in the attack, which occurred on the anniversary of the
1941 Guardist uprising in Bucharest. There have been no arrests in the
Montreal shooting.
        Police also looked at the Guard following the May 1991 murder of
University of Chicago professor Ioan Culianu, a Romanian-born divinity
professor who was shot in the head.
        Romanian authorities and Jewish organizations fear the movement is
helping fuel a growing right-wing threat in Romania.
        According to a 1994 Romanian intelligence report obtained by the
Spectator, Iron Guardists routinely establish cultural associations, leagues
and foundations as fronts for their activities in Romania.
        There's no question that lurid rituals have always played a
significant role within the legion. To join a nest, according to some
accounts, original recruits had to suck blood from self-inflicted slashes in
every nest-member's arm. They then wrote an oath in blood. Songs and prayer
remain central to legionnaire ceremonies.


Does anyone know if the Iron Guard is active in Romania?  Does anyone have
any information on extreme right wing groups or organizations in Romania?
In Hungary?

Joe Szalai
+ - Louis Elteto's advice (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I think Peter Kaslik misunderstood Greg Grose.

Louis wrote:

>My remark was aimed at those who respond to the kind of
>drivel that caused Prof. Agnew to resort to restrictions in the first

And I myself took his advice to heart. After a while one feels compelled to
write something as an answer. Wrong! The best thing is to ignore them.

Eva Balogh
+ - Green Party (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I would like to correct something in my posting of yesterday concerning the
Green Party. In my original posting I used the present tense:

>Bela Liptak's Green Party IS an environmentalist group.

It should read: Bela Liptak's Green Party  WAS an environmentalist group at
the time Bela Liptak was running for parliament. Today it is not an
environmentalist party.

Eva Balogh
+ - Ujvidek (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Eva!

In reply to an earlier posting of yours let me quote you Braham re the
Ujvidek criminals:

the trial began on December 14, 1943, in Budapest under the chairmanship of
Catain Dr. Imre Gazda; Jozsef Babos served as presecutor...The outside
world was statled and the Hungarian liberals were gratified by the stiff
sentences handed down by the coourt. Feketehalmy-Czeeydner was given 15
years' imprisonment; Grassy 14, Deak 13; and Zoldi 11. Four other leading
officers received 10 years each...Under the provisions of the Hungarian
Military Code the defendant were temporarily paroled on their own
cognizance. On January 15, 1944, the four leading defendants fled the
country and found refuge in Vienna as guests of the Gestapo. The escape was
effectuated with the aid of Archduke Albrecht..a confidant of Heinrich
Himmler. (The Politics of Genocide, I, 213-4).

On the subject of the Bardossy trial.
The trial can be considered problematic but the court was not a kangaroo
court. The Peoples Courts were established by the National Assembly and the
Hungarian government. They were recognized by the Allied Powers. Akos
Major, a military judge during the Horthy regime, tried Bardossy. He was
assisted by a jury or other judges delegated by the various political
parties. Hungarian laws were cited during the trial including the Law
3/1848. Bardossy was able to defend himself and even to challenge the
jurisdiction of the court. Major controlled the hostile audiance and the
British member of the Allied Control Commission once warned Major not to
take on the role of the prosecutor. Rakosi intervened to to silence
Bardossy but this action was ignored. The procedure was not that much
different from French jurisprudence or pre-war Hungarian one. Our
reservation conserns the  problem that the court could not prove, without
reasonable doubt, that Bardossy was responsible for starting the war. The
charge of responsibility for the Cold Days was dropped.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

+ - Dr. Imre SZECSODY (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I'm trying to locate a distant cousin named Dr. Imre SZECSODY
(sp?).  He was born in 1926, possibly in Sweden.  His parents
were Imre SZECSODY and Magdalene LENKAY.  I believe they were
both born in Hungary.  His wife's name is Ulla and he has two
children named Peter and Andrea.  He lives either in Budapest
or Stockholm, Sweden.

-Beth Huffman / Indianapolis, IN
   Elizabeth T. Huffman >
   Indianapolis, IN
+ - ORSAY / SZIGETI / SPUHLER / GESS (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I'm looking for information about the ORSAY / SZIGETI family.  My gr-gr
grandmother was named Josepha Szigeti.  She was married to Kalman Orsay and
lived in PUSZTA ZOBNATISZA, Hungary.  Kalman was born in 1840 in
KISKUNHALAS, Hungary to Karoly Uvegarn SPUHLER and Suzanna GESS.  He died in
1915 in SZENTENDRE, Hungary. They had two children, Charles Michael Orsay
and Hermina Maria Orsay.  Josepha died very young of tuberculosis in 1887.
Kalman then married Mary LANGER.

Charles ORSAY was born Sept 21, 1881 in Puszta Zobnatisza, Hungary.  His
godfather was Janos LELBAK, who was a count or baron (Grof).  Janos owned
the horse ranch (Puszta Zobnatisza, now Northern Yugoslavia - South of
Subotica) which was founded in 1779.  Kalman was the farm manager
(gazdatist). Charles served one year in the Austro-Hungarian Navy.  He
emigrated to the United States in 1905 and married Elizabeth EBERTH in 1907.

-Beth Orsay Huffman / Indianapolis, IN

   Elizabeth T. Huffman >
   Indianapolis, IN
+ - FUDALA family (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I'm looking for information about the FUDALA family.  My husband's
grandmother's maiden name was Kunegunda "Katherine" FUDALA.  She was born in
1887 in Budapest, Hungary.  Her father's name was Joseph FUDALA and she had
two sisters: Olga & Sophie.  Katherine emigrated to Morris, Illinois in 1905
with her first husband Steven ZAVISZA.  Steven died young and Katherine
married Joseph DEMBICKI.

-Beth Huffman / Indianapolis, IN
   Elizabeth T. Huffman >
   Indianapolis, IN
+ - EBERTH / CSORBA family (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I'm looking for information about my gr gr grandparents.  John Eberth was
born in the mid-1800's and was a household guard in the palace of Franz
Joseph (of Hungary).  He married Theresa CSORBA, daughter of Gyorgy CSORBA
and Katrina RUZINSKI, born in 1848 in Hungary.

Theresa's mother died when she was very young so she was raised in the court
of Countess FESTETICH, who was the traveling companion of Franz Joseph's
wife, Empress Elizabeth. She was raised in the Festetich Palace on Lake
Balaton, west of Budapest in the town on KESZTHELY, Hungary.  Her brother
was a huntsman for Franz Joseph, the emperor of Austria/Hungary.  Her cousin
Paul GALTZ was a chaplin for Franz Joseph.  John Eberth was her third husband.

In 1884, John & Theresa emigrated to Trenton, New Jersey from Hungary (or
Germany before that).  They had a son Charles Eberth and then moved to
Chicago, Illinois and had a daughter Elizabeth.  After that John left the
family and was never heard from again.

-Beth Huffman / Indianapolis, IN
   Elizabeth T. Huffman >
   Indianapolis, IN
+ - HL-Wilson vs. Holbrooke (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Colleagues,

I would like to ask all of you to post (after January 1, 1996) all the
letters you write to your newspapers or representatives  on .
By letting all participants of HL know what you wrote, you might give ideas
to the rest of us and that way we all will learn from each other. Our goal is
not to become a debating society. We don't want to tell you what you should
think or what you should have written, but we do want to support your
actions, when we agree with them.
        For example, when I got home from cutting our christmas trees this
morning, I noticed the Holbrooke article in the NYT Magazine, and wrote them
the attached. If reading this letter gives you some ideas, and if these ideas
prompt you to write your own letter, the probability of one of our letters
being published  increases. If you don't, no harm is done.
         So, in the future, anything you write, please also post on the HL
forum. We will not criticize it, we will not initiate an idle debate over it,
but if you have good ideas, we will support you with our own letters and
together we will be more effective .

Best regards: Bela Liptak

New York Times Magazine

To the Editor,

Roger Cohen quotes Richard Holbrooke:  I am not a Wilsoni an.I think he was
naive. I think he was a failure.Those thick red lines he drew at Versailles
around imagined ethnic boundaries made a significant contribution to what is
going on in the Balkans today.
     It is hard to believe that Mr. Holbrooke did really say that. The facts
are just the opposite:  Those red lines  were not drawn around ethnic
boundaries. President Wilson's principles of self-determination were
completely disregarded by Georges Clemenceau and Raymond Pointcare at
Versailles. The type of dismemberment of the 48 million Austro-Hungarian
empire, which instantly made 16 million citizens into foreigners in their own
hometowns and the formation of artificial successor states (Yugoslavia,
Czechoslovakia, greater Romania) were all opposed by President Wilson. If
President Wilson had his way, if those  red lines  were drawn at ethnic
boundaries, the XXth century would have been different. This  naive
 President fought not for the invention of new nation-states, but for the
only workable long-range solution: The Danubian Confedera tion.
      Making a deal with a mass murderer and sending troops to Bosnia for a
year is similar to the temporary propping up  one floor of a collapsing
building. No, if we want peace in the XXIst century, we don't need temporary
local deals, but long-term regional solutions. And we need solutions based on
sound principles.
      History has shown, and President Wilson understood, that whenever a
power vacuum existed in the Carpathian Basin, the Balkans became unstable.
History has also shown that no outsiders, not Germany, not Russia, not even
the EC, the UN or NATO can permanently fill such a vacuum. That is, because
they have no vital interest in the stability of the region, they don't want
to risk the lives of their children to keep the peace there. The only people
who have such vital interest, are the people who live there. Therefore, what
is needed is exactly what President Wilson proposed: the establishment of an
economically self-sufficient, politically stable, militarily neutral and
geographically large enough federation, which can eliminate the present power
vacuum. Only such a federatio can prevent future upheavals, which otherwise
will flood Western Europe with despairing refugees.       Building such a
federation is more difficult than making temporary deals. It requires both
the support of the international community and an atmosphere of
reconciliation. Armies can not create such atmosphere, only justice can and
justice can only be provided through the guarantee of autonomy to all
national communi ties. Just as the autonomy of Tyrol has eliminated the
tensions between Austria and Italy, the granting of cultural and
administrative autonomy to all indigenous national communi ties of the region
would do the same for this region. Once ethnic tensions have dissipated,
federation building can start.
      History does not solve problems accidentally. A better future can only
be achieved, if we first have a vision of it. President Wilson had such a
vision. He was neither naive, nor a failure, he was and still is right.

Bela Liptak
84 Old N. Stamford Road, Stamford, CT 06905-3961
Tel:203-357-7614, Fax: 203-325-3922, E-mail: liptakbela@ao l.com
+ - Re: Harangozo's harangue (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Joe Szalai
> writes:

>As for Mr. Stowe, he has twice commented that he doesn't understand how
>Americas mission to Bosnia is going to help anyone get re-elected.  I'll
>to explain it as simply as I can so that he can understand.  (Actually,
>rather embarrassing when someone with his apparent talents is so clueless
>when it comes to his own domestic politics.)
>Let's fastforward to the fall of 1996.  Despite considerable odds and
>loss, the Americans in Bosnia succeeded in stabilizing the area and they
>all going home.  What American president would not take advantage of such
>situation with only weeks away from an election?  What are spin-doctors
>about?  It would appear that Mr. Stowe has never heard of Hill and
>(that's the name of the PR firm that stage managed the gulf war or am I
>wrong?) or he just dosen't know the kind of work they do.
>It's time for Sam Stowe to drop his disneyesque world view.
>Joe Szalai

Good grief! You leave town for a week and look what happens! What is it
with you and conspiracy theories, Joe? Are you consciously aping the
extreme far right of American politics or are you simply lying down with
dogs and getting up with fleas? Too bad you're a Canadian citizen.
Otherwise, I think you'd enjoy campaigning in New Hampshire for Pat
Buchana. As far as the old "War equals re-election" saw, Bubba, I got two
words for you -- George Bush. You may be living in a parallel universe,
but in the main space-time continuum in which I and most of the rest of
the readers on this list live, George B. didn't get re-elected in 1992.
The Iraq War of a year earlier didn't help him at all. Nada. Nothing.
Bubkis.Not happening at that juncture.

You steadfastly refuse to explain yourself. How is America's entry into
Bosnia going to reassure Bill Clinton's re-election? It's not, of course,
but you'll use any old stick to whack at the United States. At least this
time around, as Darren Purcell has so aptly pointed out, we're at least
using our military muscle for a goal a little more idealistic than
protecting our sources of oil.

You and Durant (whose Marxist yammering continues to set records for
breath-taking academic asininity) and Harangozo, however, have convinced
me that it's not worth the time and effort for my nation to lift a finger
to help anyone outside our own borders. So the next time you get into a
full-scale rumble with one of your neighbors -- say Romania, Slovakia,
Serbia, Croatia or, God forbid, a resurgent Russian empire, you won't have
to worry about Americans like me muddying the waters by supporting our
military's involvement in cleaning up your mess. You guys would bitch at
the top of your lungs about American intervention even as the Red Army
parades down Deak ter and its soldiers begin stealing wristwatches at
gunpoint from passersby. I can't wait to see how you America-haters handle
the coming age of regional conflict once you've hounded the United States
onto the sidelines.

And as for the "disneyesque" view of life -- What are you nuts? You're
gonna have guys in trench coats and those mouse ears shadowing you if you
keep this up. And if you wake up one morning with the bloody head of Bambi
in your bed, you'll have no one to blame but yourself.
Sam Stowe

P.S. Why are you jumping into Harangozo's fight? Judging from his most
recent posts, he doesn't need your help making himself look like an idiot.
He's doing a brilliant job of it all by himself. You're simply carrying
coals to Newcastle, intellectually speaking.
+ - Harangozo's harangue (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

has anyone been to Hungary in the past 6 months?

+ - not even vaguely re: Harangozo's harangue (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> has anyone been to Hungary in the past 6 months?

A few million tourists, in addition to the ten-million-odd permanently
domiciled there.

Why ?

George Antony
+ - not even vaguely re: Harangozo's harangue (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

sorry to have upset the anal compulsive applecart
i shall leave you to feed on each other
+ - BADMOUTHING HUNGARY (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Well, it was very instructive for the reader, to silently witness
how in the avalanche of "magyarok/ciganyok" we learned that HUNGARY is
the hotbed of racial hatred. Where rabid antigipsy sentiment is in the
bone of scum-of-the-Earth Hungarians. As if HUNGARY would pale in
comparison with BOSNIA, where Milosevic, the war-criminal "ethnic
cleanser" emerges with his "Greater Serbia", having cleansed his
Lebensraum at the expense of 250,000 murdered.

How many died of "ethnic cleansing" in the meantime in Hungary?
Not one?  Has Hungary been amply rewarded by hefty chunks of Land
for "ethnic cleansing" as Milosevic was? Not really?

I guess if a bunch of Hungarian-haters likes to maintain this list
to ventillate Anti-Hungarian hate speech, in the spirit and the letter
of First Amendment they are free to do so -- but would be appropriate
to change its name to "BADMOUTHING HUNGARY".

Contributors to the sophisticated "good cop/bad cop" badmouthing of
Hungarians, where one smears this Nation with rabid anti-gipsy
sentiments, and the team-player comes on to say "well it is not *that*
bad" may not realize how similar they are to their fathers' and mothers'
tactic, exercised ad nauseam in Kadar's time. Kadarjugend, which
suffered some pretty heavy blows here by the exposure of their
parents' doings, does exactly what Kadar's propagandist did when
their Communism was under the fire of criticism.  They started to
shout in carefully orchestrated manner: "In America, they beat up
the niggers!"

This is exactly what we witnessed in the "magyarok/ciganyok" fabricted
"debate" (with not a single Gipsy participating!); when Anti-Hungarian
hate speech suffers some heavy blows they acclaim: "In Hungary, they hate

Never mind that present-day Hungary is HEAVEN for minorities, compared
for instance to practically all neighboring countries of the Trianon
alone BOSNIA) where people are forbidden to use their mather-tongue,
where Andras Suto's eye is punched out in pogrom, where A QUARTER OF
MILLIONS ARE KILLED under the banner of "ethnic cleansing" to create
Lebensraum for war criminals.

Those badmouthing Hungary in this list should be ashamed. Of course,
they won't. This is just another of the series of offenses that Anti-
Hungarian Defamation League fortunately has a record of.

Again, it might be important for the readers of this list to be reminded:

"Note *WARNING* label below, and use this list at your own risk"

+ - Re: Harangozo's harangue (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Good grief.  Mr. Stowe is back to harangue a few of us who aren't too keen
to see American GIs in Bosnia or southern Hungary.

Sam stoically substantiates severe shortcommings in seminal semantics.  He
just dosen't get it!  But never have I seen such vacuousness expressed with
such effervescence.  Rather than waste his time on this list he should be
syndicating his dribble to dentists.  What he writes has the same effect on
me as a hit of nitrous oxide.

Two examples of his utter ineptitude will suffice.

>As far as the old "War equals re-election" saw, Bubba, I got two
>words for you -- George Bush. You may be living in a parallel universe,
>but in the main space-time continuum in which I and most of the rest of
>the readers on this list live, George B. didn't get re-elected in 1992.
>The Iraq War of a year earlier didn't help him at all. Nada. Nothing.
>Bubkis. Not happening at that juncture.

I very carefully explained in an earlier post that Clinton promised the
Republicans that the American GIs would be home within a year.  That would
be election time.  That would NOT be a year BEFORE an election, as happened
with Bush.  A week in politics can be a lifetime.  A year, well.... Sam just
dosen't understand political timing, amongst a lot of other things.  His
Micky Mouse watch must be on the blink.

>You and Durant (whose Marxist yammering continues to set records for
>breath-taking academic asininity) and Harangozo, however, have convinced
>me that it's not worth the time and effort for my nation to lift a finger
>to help anyone outside our own borders.

Thanks for this morsel Sam.  By lumping Durant, Harangozo and me together,
and fighting us simultaneously, you must feel pretty macho.  I know that
that appeals to a certain percentage of men, so you may as well enjoy your
sumperman fantasy, because reality makes macho men shrivel.

As for Americans lifting "a finger to help anyone outside our own borders"
goes, all I can say is, that's ALL the Americans do.  They lift a finger.
The index finger.  And if there weren't polite people reading this list, I
would tell you where to put it.  For you, and most Americans, 1956 was the
year after 1955!  And, oh yes, it was an election year, too.

I suppose I shouldn't be too harsh with you.  After all, you're a good
example of the inflated American egos that Hungarians will have to endure as
they enter the brave new world of market captialism.  Too bad that truth,
equality, fairness, compassion, and justice are not highly valued in the
marketplace.  Too bad.

Joe Szalai