>Can you understand the feeling of shock - can you appreciate how this
may
>affects ones psyche? Think: your parents are casting you aside - you are
not
>part of the family any longer.
>

>He still thinks he is Hungarian.
>
I already pointed out before that the tragedy of the Hungarian Jews is
exactly what Marina is talking about.  We were always thinking
of ourselves as Hungarians of the mosaic fate.  We have no other culture
or cuisine.  I don't want to list here all the famours playrights,
writers, poets, musicians, artists, who happened to be Jewish, but became
famous as Hungarian writers, artists, etc., not as Jewish writers etc.
But our family casted us out - we were inferior.  And for the European
Jews we are Hungarians.  We don't speak Jiddish.  We don't eat gefilte
fish.  99% of us is not kosher.  A huge percentage of us is intermarried.
I guess, us, Hungarian Jews are a unique bunch.

Agnes

In article >, Hugh
> writes:

>Here's another posting from the Habsburg list with Hungarian relevance.
>Again, any leads or suggestions should be sent to the original poster
>directly, at his own e-mail address, unless anyone has a burning desire
>to start a discussion thread on Hungarian humanism in the sixteenth century
>on the list!
>
>Sincerely,
>
>Hugh Agnew


To be very honest with you, Hugh, I wish someone would start just such a
discussion on the list. I'm very interested in the Renaissance and humanism.
I'd love to just sit back and read a discussion on Hungarian humanism in the
16th Century. Was it affected by Italian scholars or the Northern European
model of, say, a Montaigne or Erasmus? How did the Ottoman occupation affect
the spread of humanist ideas in Hungary? Was Erdely a center for humanist
scholarship?
Sam Stowe


"If you hear a Southerner say, 'Hey, y'all, watch this!',
move away from him immediately. They're usually
the last words he'll ever utter..."
-- from "Southbound," a primer for our Northern friends
contemplating a move to the promised land.

In article >,  says...
>
>I need a translation of the following. Hope it is Hungarian:
>
>Kellene nekem egu csomay vecepapir.
>
>Thanks in advance.   Matter of life or death.
>
>


I need a package of toilet paper.

Agnes

aheringer wrote:
>
> In article >,  says...
> >
> >I need a translation of the following. Hope it is Hungarian:
> >
> >Kellene nekem egu csomay vecepapir.
> >
> >Thanks in advance.   Matter of life or death.
> >
> >
> 
>
> I need a package of toilet paper.
>
> Agnes
An don4t forget the <g> instead of <y> in <csomag> ( instead of <csomay,
which could be a family name ).
MKH

During the recent discussions about the "evils of these days",
sometimes the situation in Hungary was mentioned, as well, not only
the merits of Canadian vs. US Health Care or the kulaks. As to the
Hungarian situation, it is worthwile to read an intervew with Havas
Gabor in yesterday4s ( March 22nd ) Nipszabadsag : Nem mind szeginy, aki
annak latszik. ( www.nepszabadsag.hu, than carry on )
Regards
Miklss

At 10:18 PM 3/22/97 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:

<snip>
>To be very honest with you, Hugh, I wish someone would start just such a
>discussion on the list. I'm very interested in the Renaissance and humanism.
>I'd love to just sit back and read a discussion on Hungarian humanism in the
>16th Century. Was it affected by Italian scholars or the Northern European
>model of, say, a Montaigne or Erasmus? How did the Ottoman occupation affect
>the spread of humanist ideas in Hungary? Was Erdely a center for humanist
>scholarship?
>Sam Stowe

I know zilch about Johannes Sambucus and I too would be interested in such
a thread.  By the way, "Hungarian humanism" sounds a bit oxymoronic,
wouldn't you say?  Erasmus, Boccaccio and Petrarch were Renaissance
humanists but they didn't represent Dutch or Italian 'humanisms'.  Humanism
puts the emphasis on human beings and our values, capacities, and worth,
but not on our ethnic origin.

Is there a 'Hungarian way' of looking at the world?  Is there such a thing
as a 'Hungarian sensibility'?

Joe Szalai

This type of man who is devoted to the study of wisdom is always most
unlucky in everything, and particularly when it comes to procreating
children; I imagine this is because Nature wants to ensure that the evils
of wisdom shall not spread further throughout mankind.
          -- Erasmus

At 03:19 PM 3/23/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffman wrote:

>During the recent discussions about the "evils of these days",
>sometimes the situation in Hungary was mentioned, as well, not only
>the merits of Canadian vs. US Health Care or the kulaks. As to the
>Hungarian situation, it is worthwile to read an intervew with Havas
>Gabor in yesterday4s ( March 22nd ) Nipszabadsag : Nem mind szeginy, aki
>annak latszik. ( www.nepszabadsag.hu, than carry on )
>Regards

Nem mind szegeny, aki annak latszik, because the great pastime of this
century is to look poor.  Poverty is just an illusion and most people who
look poor are actually well off.

It's interesting what one can learn in Nepszabadsag these days.

Joe Szalai

Newspapers are unable, seemingly, to discriminate between a bicycle
accident and the collapse of civilisation.
           -- George Bernard Shaw

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  Our thousands of letters and nearly a dozen newspaper advertisements
have reached President Clinton and we stand a good chance that
American support for COLLECTIVE HUMAN RIGHTS will become an integral
part of American foreign policy. The people who took the trouble to
write deserve our thanks. The continuation of this effort is the prime
task of the Hungarian Lobby.

What to do:
  Please write President Clinton and ask him to make the collective
human rights an integral part of American foreign policy. Please send
them out every day(!)  Please, distribute them to all your
acquaintances who care about human rights.
  Feel free to use the attached sample letters: letter #1 is
applicable for Hungarian-Americans, letter #2 for non-American 
citizens.  

  Address of Clinton (e-mail):
    

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Hungarian-Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE:  Support for Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. We Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups. 

We must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just as
we led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.


Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently eliminate
the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the future is
to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be done by
uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous minority
groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would make the
defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a cornerstone
of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate the need for
our GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts. 

As a member of the 1.58 million-member community of
Hungarian-Americans, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all
indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part of
your foreign policy. 

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc:  Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. The Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups. 

The USA must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just
as you led during the Second World War when you decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.


Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently eliminate
the need for sending your troops on similar missions in the future is
to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be done by
uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous minority
groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would make the
defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a cornerstone
of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate the need for
your GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts. 

As a human right activist, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of
all indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part
of your foreign policy. 

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________

****************** CALL FOR ACTION ****************

Priority:
 normal

Background:
  Our thousands of letters and nearly a dozen newspaper advertisements
have reached President Clinton and we stand a good chance that
American support for COLLECTIVE HUMAN RIGHTS will become an integral
part of American foreign policy. The people who took the trouble to
write deserve our thanks. The continuation of this effort is the prime
task of the Hungarian Lobby.

What to do:
  Please write President Clinton and ask him to make the collective
human rights an integral part of American foreign policy. Please send
them out every day(!)  Please, distribute them to all your
acquaintances who care about human rights.
  Feel free to use the attached sample letters: letter #1 is
applicable for Hungarian-Americans, letter #2 for non-American
citizens.

  Address of Clinton (e-mail):
   

**************************************************************

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #1 for Hungarian-Americans:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE:  Support for Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. We Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

We must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just as
we led during the Second World War when we decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.


Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently eliminate
the need for sending our troops on similar missions in the future is
to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be done by
uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous minority
groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would make the
defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a cornerstone
of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate the need for
our GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a member of the 1.58 million-member community of
Hungarian-Americans, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of all
indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part of
your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc:  Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________



xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
letter #2 for non-American citizens:
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

<date>

President Bill Clinton
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, DC
(e-mail:  )

RE: Support Collective Human Rights in Central Europe

Dear Mr. President:

Every culture is sacred. The destruction of a single one mutilates the
heritage of the entire human race. International standards are needed
to protect them all. The Americans must accept the historical
responsibility of leading in the development of international
standards which will protect the collective human rights of all
indigenous minority groups.

The USA must lead as we pass over the bridge to the 21st century, just
as you led during the Second World War when you decided to protect the
individual human rights of all. Collective human rights flow from
those of the individual because such basic rights as the use of one's
language can only be practiced in groups. There is no other choice.
There are no melting pots in the Screbenicas of the world. The
alternative to cultural autonomy is mass graves and cultural genocide.


Mr. President:  In this century the United States was obliged to
intervene in Europe three times. The only way to permanently eliminate
the need for sending your troops on similar missions in the future is
to eliminate the cause of these conflicts. This should be done by
uniformly satisfying the aspirations of all indigenous minority
groups. If, as the President of the United States, you would make the
defense of collective human rights and cultural autonomy a cornerstone
of your foreign policy, you would permanently eliminate the need for
your GIs to get entangled in future European conflicts.

As a human right activist, I ask you to make the cultural autonomy of
all indigenous national minorities of Central Europe an integral part
of your foreign policy.

Respectfully,

<Your name, address and title> (If this letter is signed by many,
please use the attached form to list the names and addresses.)

cc: Vice President Al Gore
)

NAME                                  ADDRESS
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________
______________________________________________________________________

Dear All:
A while back we spoke about Radio Canada International. I wrote a letter to
the Deputy Prime Minister of Canada and just received a letter reply.

It states that RCI has received funding fro one year from April 1, 1997.

They are aware that RCI is part of the Canadian International Information
Strategy and is being launched by the Dept. of Foreign Affairs and
International Trade.

The letter is signed by Sheila Cropps, Dpty Prime Minister & Minister of
Canadian heritage.

Regards,
Peter Soltesz

Marina E. Pflieger wrote:
>
> In a message dated 97-03-21 16:35:16 EST,  (E.S. Balogh)
> writes:
> >I have a few correction to Ferenc Novak's piece on the so-called . . . .  >>
>
> >I am terribly sorry but I do see a tremendous difference. The
> >numerus clauses had nationwide applicability which practically meant that
> >very many talented students simply couldn't attend university. If they were
> >lucky and their parents could afford it they were sent abroad--this is how
> >those famous Hungarian scientists we like to boast about ended up in German
> >universities and eventually in the United States after Hitler came to power.
>
> I totaly agree with Eva -  Ferenc is comparing apples and oranges. First -
> Hungary's
> Jewish population was not large enough to create the same concerns that they
> may had at Columbia. I believe the intent of the "numerus clausus"  in
> Hungary
> was clearly to keep "undesirables" out of the institutions of higher
> learning.
>
> I have personal knowledge of three such Hungarians - who received their
> education in those days in Vienna and in Paris at the Sorbone. The three
> gentlemen were
> room mates during their school years, none of them came from wealth, in fact
> they came from poor families. They worked their way through school. All three
> became physians and made a name for themselfs in the US - no thanks to their
> place of birth. The irony is that today they are considered  a credit to
> their
> place of birth - and on a way they are.
>
> So lets not kid ourselfs and call it what it was - discrimination on a large
> scale.
>
> Sincerely, Marina

Yes Marina, it was discrimination on a large scale. And I am against
discrimination, too. We must be carefull with the facts, however, if
we want to sweep Ferenc4s comment from the table, want to compare the
situation of Columbia with the one in Budapest and DO NOT WANT to supply
ammunition for the right.
I am quoting the Budapest Lexikon, Vol 1, A-K of the Akadimiai Kiads,
1993, based on an earlier edition during the Kadar-regime, describing
Budapest in the thirties, with the fascist parties strengthening with
German help - from without and from within -  :
< A szelsvsigesen demagsg nyilas parti propaganda a korabeli magyar tar-
sadalomban realisan meglivv problimakra ipmtett. A munkasok helyzetire,
a tvke mindenhatssagara is kizsakmanyols szerepire, ( I DO hope Kristsf
is reading ) a harom millisnyi mezvgazd. koldusra, a jelentvs szamz
irtelmisigi munkanilk|lire is a m. tars. sajatos fejlvdise rivin gazd.
tzlszlyhoz jutott zsidssag elleni fellipisre alapoztak befolyasukat. A
fvkint a baloldallal szemben kiipmtett pol. rendszer eliggi nehezen
tudott fellipni a jobbrsl jvvv tamadassal szemben. A keminy kiz latszat-
intizkedisei ( sic! my remark ) mellett a mar emlmtett szocialis
tv.-eken kmv|l a "zsidstvrvinyek" ztjan igyekeztek a szelet kifogni a
szilsvjobboldal vitorlajabsl. A fvvarosban a lakossag 20,3%-a, az orsz.-
an 5,1%-a volt zsids vallasz. 1930-ban a budapesti hirlapmrsk 36,1, az
|gyvidek 55,8, az orvosok 67,2%-a volt zsids. Az ipari is kereskedelmi
nagy vallalatok, a pinzintizetek tulajdonosainak 51%-nal nagyobb hanyada
volt zsids felekezethez tartozs, de ezek a cigek uraltak a magyar gazda-
sagi ilet 95%-at. Az ez vallalatokban alkalmazott tisztviselvk 73%-a
volt zsids. > I finish the quotation. I hope I didn4t make to many
typing errors. I do not know, how reliable the numbers are. I can recall
that there was a problem in this sense. This DO NOT justify what
happened. I am just commentig your remark "The Jewish population was not
large enough to create the same concerns they may had at Columbia". If
there was a discrimination at Columbia, let us call it
a discrimination, even if it happened in a clean wasp surrounding. As
Dominus ( noster, salve ) pointed out, the world is not black and white.
Shalon. Peace.
Miklss

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 10:18 PM 3/22/97 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:
>
> <snip>
> >To be very honest with you, Hugh, I wish someone would start just such a
> >discussion on the list. I'm very interested in the Renaissance and humanism.
> >I'd love to just sit back and read a discussion on Hungarian humanism in the
> >16th Century. Was it affected by Italian scholars or the Northern European
> >model of, say, a Montaigne or Erasmus? How did the Ottoman occupation affect
> >the spread of humanist ideas in Hungary? Was Erdely a center for humanist
> >scholarship?
> >Sam Stowe
>
> I know zilch about Johannes Sambucus and I too would be interested in such
> a thread.  By the way, "Hungarian humanism" sounds a bit oxymoronic,
> wouldn't you say?  Erasmus, Boccaccio and Petrarch were Renaissance
> humanists but they didn't represent Dutch or Italian 'humanisms'.  Humanism
> puts the emphasis on human beings and our values, capacities, and worth,
> but not on our ethnic origin.
>
> Is there a 'Hungarian way' of looking at the world?  Is there such a thing
> as a 'Hungarian sensibility'?
>
> Joe Szalai
>
> This type of man who is devoted to the study of wisdom is always most
> unlucky in everything, and particularly when it comes to procreating
> children; I imagine this is because Nature wants to ensure that the evils
> of wisdom shall not spread further throughout mankind.
>           -- Erasmus

Hi everybody, hi Joe,

OK, let4s call it Humanism in Hungary, whereas the Hungarian Kingdom is
ment, both in the sense of taking place in the Kingdom, and the Huma-
nists originating there.

But, yes, there is a Hungarian way of looking at the world. Those human
beings were/are defined not only by their a) individuality, but also by
their b) being part of their society, c) being part of nature, d) having
an individual and a collective past, history and by e) their limita-
tions. ( All these defining,constituting factors not being independent
of each other, but in a dialectic interdependence. ) And their society,
and their past was no doubt Hungarian. And exactly these differences
make the European map not only so miserable, but, also so fascinating.

I hope you have a nice Sunday. It4s running out rapidly in these parts.
Miklss

Joe Szalai wrote:
>
> At 03:19 PM 3/23/97 +0100, Miklos Hoffman wrote:
>
> >During the recent discussions about the "evils of these days",
> >sometimes the situation in Hungary was mentioned, as well, not only
> >the merits of Canadian vs. US Health Care or the kulaks. As to the
> >Hungarian situation, it is worthwile to read an intervew with Havas
> >Gabor in yesterday4s ( March 22nd ) Nipszabadsag : Nem mind szeginy, aki
> >annak latszik. ( www.nepszabadsag.hu, than carry on )
> >Regards
>
> Nem mind szegeny, aki annak latszik, because the great pastime of this
> century is to look poor.  Poverty is just an illusion and most people who
> look poor are actually well off.
>
> It's interesting what one can learn in Nepszabadsag these days.
>
> Joe Szalai
>
> Newspapers are unable, seemingly, to discriminate between a bicycle
> accident and the collapse of civilisation.
>            -- George Bernard Shaw
Did you read it, Joe?
Miklos

Reading the accumulated mail I went through this thread. Maybe I missed it,
but IMHO the essential difference between the practice of the Ivy League
Schools and those in Hungary at that time was that following: one is the
practice of a private institution, the other one is the law of a country.
Although I detest both, I find it difficult to consider them equivalents
(even if someone will say that the student population of the Ivys approaches
that of Hungary:-).

Gabor D. Farkas

S or G Farkas wrote:
>
> Reading the accumulated mail I went through this thread. Maybe I missed it,
> but IMHO the essential difference between the practice of the Ivy League
> Schools and those in Hungary at that time was that following: one is the
> practice of a private institution, the other one is the law of a country.
> Although I detest both, I find it difficult to consider them equivalents
> (even if someone will say that the student population of the Ivys approaches
> that of Hungary:-).
>
> Gabor D. Farkas

I think, it is the attitude behind...
MKH

At 07:26 PM 3/22/97 -0500, Ferenc Novak rote:

>P.S.  Can anyone tell me in what year the Numerus Clausus laws  were passed?

        Yes, 1920. ESB