||Our Centrist Patriot (mind)
|| 38 sor
||Re: Csurka's call to arms, HUNGARY 439 (mind)
|| 15 sor
||Cleanliness Next to Godliness (mind)
|| 16 sor
||Re: Eva the Which (mind)
|| 46 sor
||Re: "We know better" attitude (mind)
|| 5 sor
||egy kis szoc. -pszich. (mind)
|| 136 sor
||Re: Eva the Which (mind)
|| 41 sor
||Csurka, rebellion, punishment of the guilty (mind)
|| 79 sor
||Measuring the rights? (mind)
|| 32 sor
||Hungarians in the South Pac (mind)
|| 9 sor
||Re: egy kis szoc. -pszich. (mind)
|| 14 sor
|| 92 sor
||More about the IMF and Hungary (mind)
|| 12 sor
|| 5 sor
||Re: Where is Ve'cs ? (mind)
|| 9 sor
||Re: your mail (mind)
|| 21 sor
||Demonstrations on Oct. 23 (mind)
|| 25 sor
||Re: "We know better" attitude (mind)
|| 5 sor
||Re: "We know better" attitude (mind)
|| 12 sor
||Ve'cs, Heves megye (mind)
|| 52 sor
|+ - ||Our Centrist Patriot (mind)
It is curious how Dr Pellionisz managed get two of his delusions jumbled
so now he himself is unable to sort them out. First, there is the idea
of overthrowing the elected Hungarian government by popular revolt.
Apparently, this is scheduled to happen on October 23. Second, there is
the idea that popular wrath directed against the IMF nasties will serve
as the catalyst of said revolt. Or maybe not. Sometimes he gets the
sequence backward: revolutionary takeover first, followed by debt relief
as a reward to a Hungary that has finally seen the light. These two
scenarios cancel out, but then logic is not the Doctor's strong suit.
If you want to overthrow the constitutional order, first you must find
an enemy. This much is obvious. The enemy must be evil and hateful,
otherwise the revolutionary troops are difficult to motivate. The mystery
is how the good Doctor has come to pick the IMF for the role. As enemies
go, it is a singularly inept choice.
What is the IMF? It is a bunch of bureaucrats, accountants, and bankers.
A truly awful combination, if you ask me. They are powerful. They are
arrogant. Debtors' sob stories leave them cold. They wear three-piece
suits. Also, we owe them money. Clearly, a despicable bunch. But they
are only glorified messenger boys, really. Not a single one has a face,
a name, a personality that you can latch on to. A real obscure crowd of
people, pushing paper all day long. Altogether, it is hard to see how the
new revolutionary regime is going to organize Two Minutes Hate sessions
with the IMF as the target. Just doesn't seem to get the juices going.
In Dr Pellionisz' line of work, one has got to have enemies to get anywhere.
If you don't have them, they must be invented. Rule number one in inventing
one's enemies is to latch onto something that has a face you can project on
the big screen, and a voice you can identify. You can't hate abstractions.
Rule number two is to pick on somebody weaker. When our malignant Doctor
is not busy with his patriotic chest-thumping exercises, or looking for
dark conspiracies under the bed, it would be nice to hear the plan for
beating the IMF at its own game.
|+ - ||Re: Csurka's call to arms, HUNGARY 439 (mind)
Tamas Toth wrote:
>who in their pitiful shortsightedness and/or greed for momentary political
>gains sabotaged the question of accountability for whatever happened between
>56 and 89, please leave me alone. For the next, say, 20 years I am fed up
>with your "ideas" and judgement. After that, we can talk again.
This is the wrong list to mention this, Tamas, for it was exactly this
issue on which the original Hungarian language FORUM list split up years
ago. Some of us there were pressing the accountability, others the idea
of "let bygones be bygones". The arguments became heated, with charges
flying left and right, but at the end in the Hungarian domestic politics
their idea won out and we see the consequences.
|+ - ||Cleanliness Next to Godliness (mind)
>From the Unsolicited Confessions of Dr Pellionisz:
> Particularly true is that good honest people could safeguard their
> cleanliness and independence as their most cherished virtue, IF THEY
> REMOVED THEMSELVES from the scene of last 20 years of the decay and rot.
> As I solemnly testified the other day, and confirm it in writing
> here again, I have never in my life was a member of ANY political party
> -- kept myself ABSOLUTELY clean from MSZMP (communists) and its famed
> network of III/3 ("informers")....
Whatever made him say that? Cleanliness and virtue are indeed most precious
when you got them, but the good Doctor doth protest too much, methinks.
|+ - ||Re: Eva the Which (mind)
I repeat umpteenth time... socialism was not
successful, because it hasn't yet been built
on a democratic basis. I had a look at kibbutzes
in Israel, and ofcourse it is the same positive
pointer to the future as cooperatives are,
even when planted in an unfrienly stony soil
of capitalism... I think Engels had something
to say about the role of the family and the
emancipation of women, in a new society,
one would expect a new structure, the nuclear
family and mass loneliness is associated with
capitalism, especially in the most "successful"
places... Even in the "atkos" in the little
village in Somogy, old people were dining in
the village nursery with the kiddies, everyone
enjoying the company, and those who could not
walk had a villager delivering the food in a
3 decker foodcarrier... But these things just
spoil people, making them lasy...
> Dear Enemies, Eva--
> When we are talking about socialism or capitalism, we are talking
> about people. That is life span dvelopment, child development, and
> family systems that comptise personality developement. Socialism has
> been successful in only one country --Israel. In the Kibbutzim. This
> is beacuse Marx and Engle were not aware that the nuclear family had
> to be torn down if a larger, societal and less selfless society was to
> form. Russia and all of the Russian Empire did not desecrate the
> nuclear family --raqther, ambivalently extolled it. Thus selfness
> and egoism became the norm within a false facade of selflessness that
> proved tragic --in Hungary during the 80's a common saying was that
> "you were cheating your family if you did not steal from the factory."
> By contrast, Kibbutzim, with their well functioning inant care,
> that formed a "family" of peers, facilitated a group identification
> toward the Kibbutzim and its thriving (rather than toward the Self or
> egoism). This had drawbacks, true. But it proved to be a first step
> in communalism, if not, communism.
> L. Petrovics-Ofner
> --- MOMS 3.0
|+ - ||Re: "We know better" attitude (mind)
Please, please someone tell Eva Balogh, that
the US is not the democratic paradise she thinks
it is, and other countries have good reasons
to hesitate about copying it's structure.
|+ - ||egy kis szoc. -pszich. (mind)
Kerdesem:Van e kulonbseg az ex-kommunista (kelet europai) es nyugat-europai
>En nem tudom elkepzelni, hogy a "politikai viselkedes"
>pszichologiai okokbol kulonbozzon orszagonkent. A
>helyi gazdasagi helyzet es a helyi politikai/kulturalis alternativak
>tunnek fontos szempontoknak...
Szerintem eppen hogy van, szerintem!
Ezzel nem azt akarom mondani, hogy az egyik jobb lenne a masiknal,
hanem csak azt, hogy van kulonbseg. Miert?
A mi szocializacionk ez alatt a 40 ev alatt egeszen mas volt,
mint a nyugat-eur.-ike. Europa gyakorlatilag ket reszre volt valasztva:
- egy demokratikus nyugateuropa, ahol a politikai sokfeleseg termeszetes
volt. A belso bal- ill. jobboldali mozgalmak mindig egyfajta belso
destabilizaciohoz vezettek. Ez termeszetes jelenseg az ottelok
-kelet-eur.: egy tekintely-elvu, a belso heterogenitast lenyesgeto
rendszer, ahol az ertekrend, jo-rossz, velemenyalakitas stb.
tudatosan leegyszerusitett format vett fel.
Ez a kulonbseg tudattalanul is a politikai beallitodas kulonbsegehez,
de en tovabbmegyek, mas embertipushoz vezetett:
1; nalunk a tiszta, vilagos ertekrend utani nosztalgia jelei megfigyelhetoek,
ezt a problemat pedig akkor, amikor az emberek szamara nem vilagos, hogy
mi a jo ill. rossz, mi a kovetendo minta stb. a "Tekintely" oldja meg.
Ehhez a tenyhez vegyuk meg hozza azt, hogy a mi szocializacionkben
egy "tekintely" mindig is szerepet jatszott. Az ertekek valsaga ill. egy
"tekintely " hianya (aki tiszta, kovetendo ertekeket adna nekunk)
alapozta meg a bal- most meg a jobb-oldal novekvo nepszeruseget.
Valsagok idelyen mindig az extrem jelensegek valnak nepszeruve,
es talan furcsan hangzik, de az, hogy valaki most a jobb vagy a bal
oldalra all, az mellekes (a veletlentol fugg).
2; az ertekek valsaga mellet a szocialis szerepek zurzavara is jellemzo:
nincs kovetendo minta, amit asszimilalhatnank. Errol kesobb.
Erre a te valaszod:
>Azt hiszem ez nem valami hizelgo es nagyon lekezelo analizis...
>Milyen onallo velemenye van egy amerikainak - ha mar altalanositunk,
>ha az alternativa egy mosolygo, mindent igero demokrata,
>vagy republikan? A tapasztalata szerin nem nagy a kulonbseg, ugyhogy nem
>megy el szavazni, de egy Ginrich vagy Perot (vagy mi is a neve)
>demagog sikert arathat csak mert egy uj alternativanak tunik,
>nem beszelve a Berlusconi jelensegrol...
Persze, apolitikus beallitodas. A sajat kis eletukkel vannak
elfoglalva. Igy feluletes tulajdonsagok hatarozzak meg a valasztasat.
Ez se jo. De kerdesemre egyfajta valasz:
apolitikus nyugat-eu. es kovetendo ertekrendszert ill. mintat
kereso kelet-eu. Persze ez egy drasztikus altalanositas, de
most nem vehetem figyelembe az EU. valasztasok nagy
valasztasi aranyszamat, az eszaki es deli orszagok
kozotti kulonbsegeket...Ez is egy erdekes teme lenne.
A kommunistak valasztasi gyozelmerol:
Itt szerintem a szocialis biztonsag mellet ugyanolyan szerepet
jatszott a tiszta ertekrend utani nosztalgia, es egyfajta irigyseg
az ujgazdagok ellen.
>Az biztos, hogy sokan visszasirjak a rendet es biztonsagot,
>es ha ezt nem kapjak egy valsagban levo kapitalizmustol,
>vagy egy gyengelkedo de ezuttal demokratikus alapon allo
>es szervezodo szocialista mozgalomtol, akkor rasszista/fasiszta
>totelatarian utakra ternek.
Igen, de miert. Ez a kerdes.
A szocialis szerepekrol valsagarol:
>Ez sem tipikusan magyar jelenseg, hanem az utobbi evtized
>media begyuruzese... Look after number one... Ha nem vagy
>ugyes, okos es vallakozo, magadra vess, ha nincs olyan
>szep autod es hazad, mint amit a reklam mutat a teven...
>Mindegy hogyan szereztek, az hogy van, a tulajdonos
>ugyesseget bizonyitja. Epp ez a megkerdojelezes az
>amit a kadar korszak csunya irigykedesi hagyatekanak
Azt hiszem, hogy en nem jol fejeztem ki magam:
En a leg hetkoznapibb szerepekre gondolok, es nem egyfajta
-egy rendor nem tudja , hogy hogyan viselkedik (mit szabad..)
" a Rendor"
-egy pincer szolgalekusegnek tartja a keszseges kiszolgalast
-egy vallalati manager a sajat gyors meggazdagodasat helyezi
eloterbe becsapva a sajat vallalatat, ugy hogy tudja:
a vallalat igy csodbe megy.Sajat mega alatt vagja a fat,
es ezt tudja, de annyira bizalmatlan a jovovel szemben,
hogy megis csinalja.Nyugaton is van ilyen, de nem
Vagyis : Nincs Minta, amit kovetni lehetne. Itt ausztriaba a szocialis
szerepek mintai annyira melyen ulnek, hogy trivialisak.
- a politikusok a parlamentben : "gyorsan penzt osszeszedni
meg a valasztasokoig, egzisztencialis alapot teremteni gyorsan,
mert ha nem valasztanak meg, akkor nem lesz ilyen jovedelmem."
Persze valaszolhatnad: nyugateuro.-ban is van ilyen stb. Persze
hogy van ilyen, de ilyen mertekben, nem ennyire hallgatolagosan
elfogadott modon. Ha pedig ilyesmi tortenik, ujsagok rola.
Nalunk ki ir a Fotex - parlamenti kepviselok osszefonodasarol stb.
Latin-amerikahoz hasonlitanak minket ebbol a szempontbol.
-en nem az orszag neveben irtam, csak sajat velemeny
-nem mondtam ertekiteletet: hogy nyugat jobb lenne
Emlitetted meg, hogy Marxista vagy. Ez mit jelent a szamodra?
Mit jelent Marxistanak lenni?
Ez tenyleg erdekelne.
|+ - ||Re: Eva the Which (mind)
An aside on comments by L.Petrovics-Ofner in Israeli kibbutzim:
Unfortunately, even in Israel's noble experiment with socialism is failing.
Many of the
kibbutzim are either defunct or have slipped into one of two patterns -- they
tourist attractions (with kibbutz style accomodations and restaurants for
the best known being a successful "dude ranch") or they have become moshavs,
agricultural or light-industrial (and capitalist) cooperatives. Some also have
abandonned the ideal of personally working the land and have either leased land
local Arab farmers or simply hire Arabs to do the farming.
Most distressing is the inability of the kibbutzim to keep their own young
vast majority of whom do not return to the kibbutzim after military service,
they apparently are not willing to make the sacrifices that kibbutz life
specifically, surrender to the communality of "ownership" of land, resources,
opportunities.) Some Israeli analysts have speculated that the very success of
as a "capitalist" country and as a regional military power has made it extremel
for the kibbutzim to keep or attract young members -- the need to endure
sacrifices for the preservation and success of Israel is no longer obvious to
The results are an aging -- perhaps already aged -- kibbutz population with
diminishing ability to keep the system going and a downward trend line for the
of the kibbutzim in anything resembling their original idealist, socialist form
|+ - ||Csurka, rebellion, punishment of the guilty (mind)
You wrote in connection with my piece about Mr. Csurka:
>Csurka must be a real idiot if he announces an ARMED UPRISING one
>month in advance with exact date and location.
Hmm! I think that this is real possibility!
>In my mind
>"(armed) uprising" is "felkeles", "fegyveres felkeles" in Hungarian, while
>"lazadas" (the word used in Hirmondo) is "rebellion", more than just plain
>civic disobedience, but less than (para)military action.
Well, this is not what the Hungarian dictionary says: "`lazad' = eroszakos
eszkozokkel, rendsz. fegyveresen tamad vezetoi, feljebbvaloi v. az
allamhatalom ellen." In English: to rise, normally with the help of arms,
against one's leaders, superiors or the state.
I didn't have in mind your scenario (or any scenario for that matter) when I
sat down to write the piece about Mr. Csurka. No, I didn't, because I am
certain that nothing will come of it. No throngs of people will gather on
October 23 in order to topple the government, armed or unarmed. But I, as an
active participant of the 1956 events, greatly object to linking Mr. Csurka's
antidemocratic ideology with the 1956 Revolution, which was the outpouring of
democratic yearnings of the Hungarian people. The memory of 1956 is already
tarnished by many far-right groups speaking in its name, we don't need Mr.
Csurka's call for "rebellion" on its anniversary.
As for the punishment of the guilty. I had not followed Hungarian events very
closely until about two years ago, therefore, I must rely on other people's
observations. I just finished reading a book on Jozsef Antall, the former
prime minister. In that book I read the following:
"Vitathatatlanul frusztralo helyzetbe kerult az orszag vezetese. Nem volt az
orszagban a diktatura negyevtizedes kartevesevel aranyos, szemelyek elleni
gyulolet, es nem lehetett megragadhato normakat megadni a bunosok
csoportjanak meghatarozasahoz. Az igazsagtetelnek, a nagytakaritasnak, az
atmentesek megakadalyozasanak utjat allta a gyulolethiany, a forradalomhiany,
a kaderhiany, a jogallamisag es a politikai erdekek. . . . 1990 augusztusaban
a kormany elrendelte a vallati tanacsok ujravalastasat, had legyen
rendszervaltas a munkahelyeken is. A valasztasokra a kormanypartok es az
SZDSZ egyarant igyekezett mozgositani a tagjait, eredmenytelenul. Az esetek
nyolcvanot szazalekaban ujjavalasztottak a vallalatok elso szamu embereit. A
szovetkezetek nem oszlottak fel, a kilepok szama igen alacsony maradt, az
elnokok javareszt szinten a helyukon maradtak. 1990 oszen a "magyar videk"
hatalmas aranyban polgarmesterre legitimalta vezetoit."
For those who do not know Hungarian here is a short description of the above
passage: It was difficult to do housecleaning because there was lack of hate,
lack of revolution, lack of personnel. And at the same time there were
political interests and the rule of law. In August 1990 the government
ordered elections for workers' councils in the factory. In 85 percent of the
cases the number one man in the council was reelected. The cooperatives
didn't fall apart, the number of people who left the cooperative remained
low, and the former directors remained in their posts for the most part. In
the fall of 1990 the countryside reelected the presidents of the local
councils as mayors.
Yes, perhaps it would have been better to have a revolution from below. But
there wasn't and therefore I see difficulties with the kind of housecleaning
Mr. Csurka suggested. Moreover, what criteria could have been used to divide
the population into two groups: the innocent and the guilty. Would Mr. Csurka
who himself admitted to be a secret police agent have fallen into the first
category or not?
I sympathize with you in certain cases. I myself clearly remember people who
were despicable human beings and who did real harm to their fellow citizens.
But most of these atrocities were committed during the Rakosi regime and the
early stages of the Kadar regime. During the second half of Kadar's rule it
was much more difficult to find real villains and obviously, the Hungarian
people didn't look upon the office holders of these years as their enemies.
Otherwise, they would have demanded at least their leaving public office.
I certainly welcome any discussion on this topic.
|+ - ||Measuring the rights? (mind)
It is most amusing how certain standards can be twisted around in the
needed directions. Let's take this lines as a good example of the fact:
>Thus, by democratic means there is no chance of changing the regime. There
>is, according to him, only one way: taking to the streets, rising up against
>the existing order. That is, if I understand him correctly, to take power by
>undemocratic means. And that act is announced in the name of October 23 for
>the anniversary of October 23. I am disgusted. If anyone discredits the
>Hungarian Revolution of October 23, it is Mr. Csurka and the far-right.
>Shame on them!
The Hungarian Revolution of 56 was just as undemocratic, as the way how
a bunch of traitors and occupators forced their unwanted presents on the
masses. Just as it was stated above...there was a time when people took
to the streets in "rising up against the existing order"!
So, just because this "up-rising" was against the will of the existing
order, than it was undemocratic or else?
Shall we use the same measure of the masses of their time, just as we try
to do with the masses of our time, or use another kind of set of standards?
Of course we can argue, that the regime of pre-56 installed themselves with
the aids of cunning deceit and borrowed power, but that argument can be used
pro and contra for the present situation as well. Not that I am, in any shape
or form is trying to support any violent mass demonstrations, but whoever
is trying to deny the rights of the masses for Public Disobedience and
peaceful demonstration in the case of unsolvable political situations, should
shame on her/himself only!
I wonder how would be the tone of the critic in the case of the same
situation, let's say, done by the far-left? Or what we are experiencing now,
nothing but an acute case of Situation Ethics?
|+ - ||Hungarians in the South Pac (mind)
I am being assigend to the Island of Guam, and would like to know if anyone
knows of Hungarians on the island. In addition, I am looking for any
information concerning Hunagrians in Japan, Australlia, or any where else in
the Pacific, including Hawaii. If you know of any helpful information, please
let me know. Thanks in advance.
e-mail address: >COM
|+ - ||Re: egy kis szoc. -pszich. (mind)
Inkabb valaszolok privat, mert egyreszt sokan nem
ertenek magyarul ezen a listan, masreszt elofordul-
hat, hogy vannak nehanyan, akiket nem erdekelnek
a valaszaim... Meg definialni sem tudom
a "szocial-pszihologia" tudomanyagat, de velemenyem
azert mindig (meg) van...
I rather answer in a private post, as a few on this
list are not proficient in Hungarian, and also, there
could be some who's not interested in my answers...
please save my answers, incase someone is curious
about what it means to be a Marxist...
|+ - ||appeal (mind)
In response to the draconic and discriminatory education bill passed by
the Romanian parliament, the Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in Romania
has published the following appeal. It should put the impending visit of
President Iliescu's to Washington in proper perspective.
The Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in Romania has been pursuing
since its formation a consistent political fight for the democratisation
of the Romanian society, the European integraton of Romania and the equity
in rights of our ethnic Hungarian community of 2 million people. We have
always considered that those aims cannot be separated from each other, and
it is not possible to build real democracy for the majority while depriving
the minority of its most fundmental rights.
On the other hand we wished to reach our endeavous--endeavours of
the community we represent...by strictly constitutional and legal means;
in our parliamentary work we tried to serve both general and specific
democratic interests at the same time.
For more than seventy-five years the ethnic Hungarian community in
Romania has been threated by elimination, being subjected to various ways
of aggressive assimilation by the different Romanian governments. This
intention did not cease to exist after 1989, on the contrary, the
extremist, xenophobic, anti-Hungarian forces representing it act even more
openly. Anti-Hungarian incitements, fascist instigation became accepted
in the Romanian Parliament and unfortunately Romanian politicians
concerned with real democracy also watch helplessly how the leadership of
the country is more and more dangerouly shifted toward an extremist
The most recent and the most critical evidence for this intention
of cultural genocide and its step-by-step realisation is the Law on
education adopted by the parliament. In the following period this law
will be an efficent tool to destroy education in the mother tongue,
continuing and strength methods of the communist dictatorship before 1989.
This law is categorically more discriminatory, with a stronger
anti-Hungarian and anti-minority character than the similar laws and
regulations of the Ceausescu.
It prescribes the forced establishment of Romanian teaching units
in every locality.
It forbids the teaching of many subjects in the mother tongue,
including the whole vocational education.
It winds up existing Hungarian professional schools and classes.
It eliminates the possibility of denominational education,
nationalising once again nd definitively schools confiscated from the
It forbids the establishment of independent Hungarian universities
and higher education institutes
It regulates the system of entrance examinations in such a way the
Hungarian students are forced to attend schools with teaching in the
Romanian language as they cannot take their entrance examination to higher
education institutes in their mother tongue.
The Democratic Alliance of Hungarians in Romania cannot accept this
law, which ignores the will of minorities living in Romania. Neither the
draft bill signed by half million ethnic Hungarian Romanian citizens and
forwarded nine months ago, nor our repeated appeals for a dialogue about
the problems of education with representatives of the government, had
It is not possible to take decisions concerning the life of a
community in a specific situation without their consulting and without
asking their opinion, and those happened categorically prove that hidden
or open cultural genocide can only be avoided if own decision-making
spheres of authority are ensured and wider autonomy guaranteed.
The recently adopted Law on Education is in contradiction with the
Constitution and with international agreements Romania has signed.
We call the Hungarian community in Romania to join forces and
protest in the following period unanimously, in solidarity against the
mutilation of our education in the mother tongue.
We call the President of Romania, the Romanian Government,
responsible political forces to reconsider their present standpoints, not
to outlaw the Hungarian community in Romania, not to permit the country to
become a prey of extreme nationalist forces when the economical and
political interest of the whole Romanian society is a fast European
We call the democratic Romanian opposition not to yield to
nationalist rhetoric and try to prevent the separation of Romania from the
We call the Romanian public opinion not to let itself deceived by
an untrue propaganda which presents the Hungarians as enemies, because we
want to settle our future together with the Romanians here, in Romania.
We call the Govenment of Hungary to support our endevous and speak
out against our oppression on every international forum.
We call the Council of Europe, the European Union, the OSCE, the
UNO not to allow the situation to become aggravated, not to permit fascist
incitement, nationalist hatred in this region creating a new conflict
situation, endangering security and stability in Europe.
We call the governments of Europe and the world to help us stop the
annihilation of our education and culture in the mother tongue, the
oppression, and forced disappearance of a Hungarian community with a
history and a strong culture from Romania, Transylvania.
Targu Mures, July 1, 1995
G. P. Zoltani
|+ - ||More about the IMF and Hungary (mind)
A footnote to 's comments "The IMF lawsuit
I just received the electronic edition of Magyar Narancs, a political weekly.
According to the paper's information Tamas Suchman, the minister for
privatization, did not show up at the appointed time for a discussion with
the delegates of the IMF. Apparently the IMF representatives waited for him
at least an hour but no show! Later Suchman apparently apologized. Apology or
no apology, this only reinforces 's impressions.
The unmitigated gall--that's all I can say.
|+ - ||Folders (mind)
What is the accepted Hungarian word for "Folder", as used in Windows 95,
or on the Macintosh OS?
L. J. Elteto
Portland State University
|+ - ||Re: Where is Ve'cs ? (mind)
Thanks you very much for your reply. This will be very
helpful to look for more information in the other near by
Do you happen to know when the village of Ve'cs was formed?
I would like to find out what that area was called before
Ve'cs came into existance.
|+ - ||Re: your mail (mind)
> Does somebody know ???
> 1.: In Transylvania how the Hungarians are distributed?
> In a homogeneous area in the North or mixed with Romanians ?
> I can not find maps about this.
> 2.: In the Paris treaty after WWII there was a point which stated,
> if Chech and Slovaks split an area (Csallokoz ?) must go
> back to Hungary? Is it true?
Regarding question number one, Maramures judet in Northern Romania has a
large councentration and the two central judets Surrounding Brasov are
majority Hungarian (by a sizable amount).The rest of Transylvania is very
much mixed, with Romanians making up the majority but the size fo the
majority varies as well. This is not from any particular data source, but
ehre was an excellent article that can confirm what I said (and have seen
on maps in both countries), Fall 1994, The Wilson Quarterly. The title
escapes me at the moment, but that was the journal.
BEst wishes on question number 2
|+ - ||Demonstrations on Oct. 23 (mind)
Totally independent of who is organizing what for which 23rd of
October, I'd like to ask Ms. Eva Balogh if demonstrations on
the 23rd of October 1956 were a DEMOCRATIC or an UNDEMOCRATIC
event in her opinion?
It is interesting to note that one of the famous "16 Points"
(flyer, comprising the demands of Hungarian Youth, compiled and
distributed by the Student Council of Technical University of
Budapest) specifically called for:
"#8: Foreign trade agreements, and the de facto figures of war
reparation demands, that are N E V E R truly repayable by Hungary,
should be made public..."
In view of the likelihood that 20 year old socialist true believer
Ms. Balogh took part in the (democratic or undemocratic) demonstra-
tions with the "16 Points" being in the limelight of demands, one
wonders if 59 year old SZDSZ (liberal) true believer Ms. Balogh
would approve a demonstration on 23rd of October, 1995, with such
an explicit demand"
"Attempts aimed at lowering the de facto figures of IMF debts,
that are N E V E R truly repayable by Hungary, should be a matter
of public debate, with government obliged to respond to letters
written to government officials by citizens/electors. [A. Pellionisz]
|+ - ||Re: "We know better" attitude (mind)
If you know a better or more succesful country than the USA, I sure
would like to hear about it!!!
(Not related to Eva Balogh)
|+ - ||Re: "We know better" attitude (mind)
In article >, (Laszlo
>If you know a better or more succesful country than the USA, I sure
>would like to hear about it!!!
>(Not related to Eva Balogh)
|+ - ||Ve'cs, Heves megye (mind)
As Mr. Hidas pointed out, "Ve'cs is a small village in the Heves-county
region connecting the smooth and calm "Ma'tra" hills ("only" hills, not
mountains) with the Great Hungarian Plain ("Puszta"). "Domoszlo'",
together with "Abasa'r" and "Visonta" are well known of their excellent
wine as part of the traditional "Eger-Gyo:ngyo:s" wine-producing
territory. "Ve'cs", at a distance of about 100 km (65 miles) East -
North-East from Budapest, is certainly not a town or a city, just a
beautiful little Hungarian village.
As for the question put by Al Starnes, perhaps some historical facts can
help. I have seen milling stones (to be operated by hand) found in the
vicinity of "Gyo:ngyo:shala'sz", proving, that the region was inhabited
quite continuously from very ancient times. "Abasa'r" is the burial
place of "ABA SA'MUEL", a prince from the time of the first royal
dynasty, the "A'rpa'ds" of the Hungarian Kingdom. "Gyo:ngyo:spata" and
"Gyo:ngyo:ssolymos" are proud of their Roman Catholic churches of the
"A'rpa'ds" era. "Gyo:ngyo:s" was elevated to its rank of town by Carl
Robert, the Anjou king (Caroberto for the Italians) in 1334 and her
gymnasium (high-school) was founded in 1634 (I am proud of having my
maturity diploma from the Gyongyos Vak Bottyan gymnasium). "Gyo:ngyo:s"
played for a short time a central role in the "Ra'ko'czi Independence
War" against the Habsburgs (Janos Bottyan, a brave leader of that war was
buried in the franciscan church of the town). "Eger" was a fortified town
and famous of a long battle in 1552 when the Turks were stopped there.
In the last century the landlords of the region were of the quite
rebellious (kuruc) "Alma'sy" family, "Ra'ko'czi" himself was once a guest
in their Castle in "Gyo:ngyo:shala'sz". Two "Alm'sys" with the same name
should be mentioned here.
"Alma'sy Pa'l" was the President of the Debrecen Parlament in 1849,
which declared the deprivation of the Habsburg dynasty
from the throne and crown of the Hungarian Kingdom (probably the first
reason or alibi for the first Russian occupation of Hungary: how could we
hope that the Holy Allience (Szent Szo:vetse'g) might allow such an
irreversible-looking rebellion against the European Order established in
1815 in Jalta-Potsdam...sorry! Vienna).
The other "Alma'sy Pa'l" was an officer of the Horthy-army during WWII,
and in October 15, 1944 he was involved in the group of military
officers and politicians, who (again desperately) wanted to organize the
"jump out" procedure. His illustrated diary written in the the Gestapo
prison of Sopronko"hida was published in Budapest.
The family's burial place is in the cemetery of "Gyo:ngyo:shalasz",
about 30 meters from the tomb of my father. The name of this village was
first mentioned in a document dated back to the era of the Tartar
Invasion (Tata'rja'ra's) in the the XIII. century. The size and character
of "Gyongyoshalasz" must be very similar to that of "Ve'cs".
Therefore I guess, that the name of "Ve'cs" has not been changed in the
last centuries, probably dates back to the "A'rpa'ds", and it is not a
town, but a beautiful Hungarian village.
And as you see, the point was "Gyo:ngyo:shala'sz"! ;-)
I'll go for harvesting grapes this weekend, and can probably collect more
information in "Hala'sz" about neighbouring "Ve'cs".
God bless all of us... kadargyorgy