I am forwarding this info from another list that concerns foreign
languages.  Those of you with Netscape can easily check things out - I
cannot.  Does it contain Hungarian?

Please, someone, look it up and let us know.

Thanks,
Martha

Could someone please add some Hungarian content to the ongoing discussion
about teachers, unions, and education? My instincts tell me two totally
contradictory things: first, that unions always screw those who pay for the
service, and second, that we want the teachers of our kids to be fat and
happy. Where does Hungary stand in comparison to European (in particular,
Visegra1d) countries in class size, teacher's salaries, competitive scores?
How much (un)equality is there across schools in different parts of the
country? How much influence the local governments have over curricula and
other key issues like teachers' salaries, tenure, etc? What is the NAT all
about? All this discussion about Westchester County and NC is fine and dandy,
but still, I'd appreciate something about Hungary...

Andra1s Kornai

funny bounce...
>
>    User > not known at this site.
>
> Should you need assistance, please mail .
>
> -------------------- Returned message follows ---------------------
>

> In-Reply-To:  > from "Stowewrite" at Jul 1,
>               96 10:42:05 pm
>
> >
> > I have always considered Hungary to be a society and culture that honored
> > academic achievement, much more so than my own native North Carolina. (and
> > I come from a long, long line of teachers in the northeastern part of the
> > state) Do teachers, as a whole, find a little more honor and prestige in
> > their profession there than they do here?
> > Sam Stowe
> >
> > "If this is paradise,
> > I wish I had a lawn mower..." -- (Nothing But) Flowers, Talking Heads


"Fresh" response:
>
> They used to. Most parent's attitude was, that the teacher is
> always right, in the 70s, and teachers were very respected
> members of the community, even if their salaries were always
> lower than comparable graduate jobs.  In the 80s the role
> of intellectuals in general started to have lower status,
> as it became evident, that more money can be made without
> certificates.  However, as university places were so
> restricted, the race to get to higher education and
> some of the prestige.
> I worked for a year as an unqualified "napkozi"
> (afternoon care) teacher, the same time a young
> nursery teacher started in the village (1983),
> and the community treated us with real deference.
> this behaviour could have been also the consequence
> of knowledge of the reluctance in taking up teaching
> jobs in small
> far-away (isten hata mogotti) places, even with the
> offer of accomodation and perks from the local coop...
> I apologise - sorry! I had a good time...
> What I hear now, the status of teachers - together
> with their living standards - is sliding ever since,
> and I've never heard a claim, that they'd been ever
> overpaid.
>
> Eva Durant
>

Hi, Does anyone have any experiences with Central European University?

any positive or negative info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks, Mike

Try to evaluate both your old system, and the one you
wish to adopt: keep the positive features of the
former and do not copy the negative ones of the
new. Unfortunately, Hungary seems to have gone
for the worst of both worlds...
However, you won't have much help from your
very democratic friends, you'll be forced to take
the lot, whether you'll like it or not...
Good luck, anyway...




>
> We are a group of Vietnamese who are willing to learn how your people
> liberated your country from the dictators in 1989.
> Please forward your experience and/or any documents which we could learn
> from.
> Thank You!

Eva Balogh wrote, quoting me:

TB>>
TB>>Communism was a consequence of Capitalism, have we learned anything?

>
>        I'm afraid this statement is not accurate. "Communism"--if under
>that term you mean the regime which was introduced in the Soviet Union in
>1917--was not the consequence of capitalism.

Yes, that is what I meant by "Communism".  The sentence would have lost
some of its impact had I used Rudolf Bahro's somewhat more accurate
"actually existing socialism".

Eva continues:

> Russia was not a capitalist
>country; i.e., it had a very small working class and was basically an
>agricultural country. The idea of "Communism" was kindled by a small group
>of intellectuals who took advantage of the general misery in Russia during
>the First World war and managed to introduce, with the help of disaffected
>soldiers, a dictatorship.
>

Some while back, Eva admitted, that though she is a historian with a Ph.D.
from an Ivy League American university, (I think it was Yale, but maybe
Harward, at any rate, not the University of Pennsylvania)  she was never
much interested in the philosophy of history.  I meant to write at the time
that to me this is analogous to a physicist who doesn't care for
mathematics, but I didn't get to it.  That's the way my life goes.....

In short, Eva is the sort of historian, of whom there are still,
unfortunately, too many, who believes that the most important part of
hitory is to recunstruct the 'facts'.

I have written earlier to this list (in my debate with our Roumanian
Mathematician friend who was disturbed about "atrocities" committed against
Wallachians in the 1700s and 1800s by Hungarians.  There was something
about the burning of churches, the persecution of Roumanian Orthodox
Priests, and some politically incorect quotes by Koshuth) about why I think
this is not feasable (i.e. the epistemological problems inbedded in
historical discourse of any sort, for example, Koshuth's undoubtedly nasty
comments have a different weight when one remembers that in America,
Africans were still held as property at the time) and there are many great
historians (see Ranke, Dilthey, or Croce) who point to the importance of
culture, context, and perspective in the construction of historical
interpretations.

Thus, while Eva is perfectly right about the the small degree of capitalist
development in Russia, she ignores the following circumstances:

1.  Nineteenth century capitalism already had global negative effects, some
of which were felt in Russia and were described for the Russian context by
Lenin in his little book _Imperialism: The Final Stage of Capitalism_.

2.  The fundamental ideas of socialism in general and Marxism in particular
were worked out in the rapidly developing (Germany) and well developed
(Britain) Capitalist societies.  After WW I. attempts were made almost
throughout Europe to put them in practice, but only the Russian ruling
class was weak enough for a revolution to succeed.

3.  The opportunity for revolution in Russia came about as a result of the
first great capitalist war,  WW I.

4. Finally, Lenin himself was aided and transported to Russia from exile,
by Germany in order to take Russia out of the war and relieve the Axis of
the neccessity of fighting a two front war.

So, as you can see, whether my statement is valid or not, has little to do
with accuracy, and a great deal to do with perspective.  As the children
sing in Sesame Street, "Where you put your eyes, where you put your eyes,
that's about the size of it."

Tibor Benke


Think globally, act locally!

I don't know if there is an English translation
of a very funny book:"Medencek, golok, pofonok"
by Dr Karpathy Gyorgy - one of the great
Hungarian waterpolo veterans.
If there isn't, there should be, as one of the
fumniest book one could read as far as I remember.




>
> My brother is interested in writing an article for a midwestern newspaper
> on the bloody Olympic waterpolo match that took place between Hungary and
> Russia in the
> aftermath.
>
> Would anybody know of anything written on this subject--English preferred,
> but French, German or Italian acceptable.
>
>  --
> Ted Perlmutter
> Center for European Studies     Phone (212) 998-3838
> New York University             FAX   (212) 995-4188
> 715 Broadway, 3rd Floor
> New York, NY 10003
>
> Home: 212-721-1813
>
> Internet address:  or 

>
> I stand corrected. I based my statement on news reports about lack of math
> teachers and science teachers. I was also speaking only about school
> teachers, not college teachers.
>
> However, if there is teacher-unemployment, than the artificially high
> salaries are even less justified. They just encourage more people to choose
> a career with no safe future (if there is such an animal).
>
> Gabor D. Farkas

so the problem of the 10% + european unemployment could be
solved if those at work would take cuts in their pay.
It's been done - it didn't work. The market forces are not
upto their task of sorting out all ills in society...

The choice is between being an unskilled or a skilled unemployed,
and more and more people opt for the later one,
as they were told it would give them more chance... oops.

Perhaps we should see planning done democratically,
using all the dataprocessing now available, before we
make pronouncements.  Even in the beloved market
economy, there is an awful lot of planning's going on,
it can't be that bad...
yes, have nice holidays with
better weather than the one overhere!

Eva Durant

>
> Charlie,
>
> Of course, your assessment is right, particularly when you point at the
> failures of the central planning.  My aim was to show the true picture
> about teachers going into different fields, due to lack of positions.
>
> A happy 4th of July to you and everyone on this side of the pond!
>
> Martha

Michelle G Sandler wrote:
>
>  : What is the best folkmusic CD out in the market?
>
> --
> Michelle Sandler
> ,
I happen to like a group called "Muzsikas". They play a variety of
styles from Hungary as well as from the surrounding areas. A singer by
the name of Marta Sebestyen is also quite a treat. Hope this helps.

L. Galambos

Unfortunatley I know a few too many high sholl and lower grade teachers
that are unemployed because of a lack of jobs in Norther Florida and in
Central Kentucy, but then that is the way a capitalist econmy prefers it
isn't it, 5 percent unemployment is considered good for the employers?

sorry, thought not a marxist, I couldn't avoid the obvious jab.

Darren Purcell

Mike,

I would help us to answer better if you'd narrow the subject: are you
planning to teach or study?

Martha




On Wed, 3 Jul 1996, Michael Mr mike wrote:

> Hi, Does anyone have any experiences with Central European University?
>
> any positive or negative info would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks, Mike

At 02:15 AM 7/3/96 -0700, Tibor Benke wrote:

>Some while back, Eva admitted, that though she is a historian with a Ph.D.
>from an Ivy League American university, (I think it was Yale, but maybe
>Harward, at any rate, not the University of Pennsylvania)  she was never
>much interested in the philosophy of history.

        Yes, I received my Ph.D. in history from Yale Univeristy. In any
case, it is Harvard and not Harward, and what's wrong with the University of
Pennsylvania?

>I meant to write at the time
>that to me this is analogous to a physicist who doesn't care for
>mathematics, but I didn't get to it.  That's the way my life goes.....

        I don't think that Tibor Benke knows what he is talking about.
Philosophy of history is a sub-category of philosophy more than of history.
In most universities they don't teach philosophy of history in the History
Department and rarely in the Philosophy Department. I had the misfortune of
taking a year of Philosophy of History as a prerequisite for an honors B.A.
in Canada.

>In short, Eva is the sort of historian, of whom there are still,
>unfortunately, too many, who believes that the most important part of
>hitory is to recunstruct the 'facts'.

        Well, without facts or with the wrong facts, we can't do anything.
No fancy foot work, no fancy philosphy of history will be worth a damn
without the righ facts.

>and there are many great
>historians (see Ranke, Dilthey, or Croce) who point to the importance of
>culture, context, and perspective in the construction of historical
>interpretations.

        Yes, but Ranke was not concerned with philosophy of history. Dilthey
did, and yes, Croce did.


>Thus, while Eva is perfectly right about the the small degree of capitalist
>development in Russia, she ignores the following circumstances:

>1.  Nineteenth century capitalism already had global negative effects, some
>of which were felt in Russia and were described for the Russian context by
>Lenin in his little book _Imperialism: The Final Stage of Capitalism_.

        Oh, come on. Lenin wrote his "little book," because he had to come
up with some theory which would explain why Marx's prediction about the
worsening situation of the working class in capitalist countries didn't
materialize. So, he came up with this ingenious theory which went something
like this: the workers of the capitalist countries were paid off by the
booties of colonialism. Sounded nice, except it wasn't really true.

>2.  The fundamental ideas of socialism in general and Marxism in particular
>were worked out in the rapidly developing (Germany) and well developed
>(Britain) Capitalist societies.

        Yes, the ideas were developed there but no revolution came in those
countries.

>After WW I. attempts were made almost
>throughout Europe to put them in practice, but only the Russian ruling
>class was weak enough for a revolution to succeed.

        Yes, there were attempts but not because the general miseries of
capitalism but because of the myseries of the war. Please, keep in mind that
only that these attempts occurred only on the losing side. (OK. Russia was
not theoretically on the losing side but in reality it was.) Yes, these
revolutionary attempts occurred in Germany, Hungary, and Russia. Not in
countries which were victorious. As for your saying that "only the Russian
ruling calss was weak enough to a revolution to succeed," I think is wrong.
It succeeded in Russia because the Provisional Government didn't have the
guts to get out of the war. Kerensky and Miliukov felt that they cannot go
back on their words with the Allies. And, of course, there was a lot of
pressure on the Allied side to keep Russia in the war. They made a horrible
mistake. If the Provisional Government had gotten out of the war, Lenin or
no Lenin, German sealed train or no German sealed train, there most likely
wouldn't have been any Bolshevik revolution in Russia.

        And by the way although my main interest is Eastern Europea and
Hungary within that, I also studied Russian history quite extensively and
TA'd year after year in Russian history.

>3.  The opportunity for revolution in Russia came about as a result of the
>first great capitalist war,  WW I.

        Well, I don't know why it was a capitalist war. Just because it
occurred when the mode of production of capitalist?


>4. Finally, Lenin himself was aided and transported to Russia from exile,
>by Germany in order to take Russia out of the war and relieve the Axis of
>the neccessity of fighting a two front war.

        And so what. What does that have to do with capitalism? That Germany
was a capitalist country? Oh, come on!


>So, as you can see, whether my statement is valid or not, has little to do
>with accuracy, and a great deal to do with perspective.  As the children
>sing in Sesame Street, "Where you put your eyes, where you put your eyes,
>that's about the size of it."

        Whatever that means, obviously my perspective is not the right one.
At least not according to you.

        Eva Balogh

Tibor Benke wrote:
> Eva Balogh wrote, quoting me:
> TB>>Communism was a consequence of Capitalism, have we learned anything?

> >        I'm afraid this statement is not accurate. "Communism"--if under
> >that term you mean the regime which was introduced in the Soviet Union in
> >1917--was not the consequence of capitalism.
>
> Yes, that is what I meant by "Communism".  The sentence would have lost
> some of its impact had I used Rudolf Bahro's somewhat more accurate
> "actually existing socialism".

> Eva continues:

> > Russia was not a capitalist
> >country; i.e., it had a very small working class and was basically an
> >agricultural country. The idea of "Communism" was kindled by a small group
> >of intellectuals who took advantage of the general misery in Russia during
> >the First World war and managed to introduce, with the help of disaffected
> >soldiers, a dictatorship.

> Some while back, Eva admitted, that though she is a historian with a Ph.D.
> from an Ivy League American university, (I think it was Yale, but maybe
> Harward, at any rate, not the University of Pennsylvania)  she was never
> much interested in the philosophy of history.  I meant to write at the time
> that to me this is analogous to a physicist who doesn't care for
> mathematics, but I didn't get to it.  That's the way my life goes.....
>
> In short, Eva is the sort of historian, of whom there are still,
> unfortunately, too many, who believes that the most important part of
> hitory is to recunstruct the 'facts'.

You just HAD to get this little piece of ad hominem off your chest, did you?

> I have written earlier to this list (in my debate with our Roumanian
> Mathematician friend who was disturbed about "atrocities" committed against
> Wallachians in the 1700s and 1800s by Hungarians.  There was something
> about the burning of churches, the persecution of Roumanian Orthodox
> Priests, and some politically incorect quotes by Koshuth) about why I think
> this is not feasable (i.e. the epistemological problems inbedded in
> historical discourse of any sort, for example, Koshuth's undoubtedly nasty
> comments have a different weight when one remembers that in America,
> Africans were still held as property at the time) and there are many great
> historians (see Ranke, Dilthey, or Croce) who point to the importance of
> culture, context, and perspective in the construction of historical
> interpretations.

Whatever that long-winded meandering has got to do with the issue on hand.

> Thus, while Eva is perfectly right about the the small degree of capitalist
> development in Russia, she ignores the following circumstances:
>
> 1.  Nineteenth century capitalism already had global negative effects, some
> of which were felt in Russia and were described for the Russian context by
> Lenin in his little book _Imperialism: The Final Stage of Capitalism_.
>
> 2.  The fundamental ideas of socialism in general and Marxism in particular
> were worked out in the rapidly developing (Germany) and well developed
> (Britain) Capitalist societies.  After WW I. attempts were made almost
> throughout Europe to put them in practice, but only the Russian ruling
> class was weak enough for a revolution to succeed.
>
> 3.  The opportunity for revolution in Russia came about as a result of the
> first great capitalist war,  WW I.
>
> 4. Finally, Lenin himself was aided and transported to Russia from exile,
> by Germany in order to take Russia out of the war and relieve the Axis of
> the neccessity of fighting a two front war.

You have no proof that she ignores any of the above.  It is just that these
are, at best, side issues and not the root cause.  Quite apart from some
of your statements being rather tendentious interpretations of facts, and
quite debatable themselves.

> So, as you can see, whether my statement is valid or not, has little to do
> with accuracy, and a great deal to do with perspective.  As the children
> sing in Sesame Street, "Where you put your eyes, where you put your eyes,
> that's about the size of it."

I suppose I must be rooting for those historians who place more emphasis on
facts that touchy-feely-woolly waffle, or 'perspective' if you prefer, and
do not consider Sesame Street the ultimate guiding light in history.

And, for the sake of introducing some Hungarian contents, may I just point
out that regardless of your perspective of the lowly matter of accuracy,
Kossuth is spelt just like that, and not 'Koshuth'.

George Antony

At 04:17 AM 7/3/96 GMT, you wrote:
>Hi, Does anyone have any experiences with Central European University?
>
>any positive or negative info would be greatly appreciated.
>
>Thanks, Mike

        I don't have direct experience but I know several people to teach
there. If you are interested, please let me know.

        Eva Balogh

At 09:16 AM 7/3/96 +0100, Eva Durant wrote to the Vietnamese inquiry:
>Try to evaluate both your old system, and the one you
>wish to adopt: keep the positive features of the
>former and do not copy the negative ones of the
>new. Unfortunately, Hungary seems to have gone
>for the worst of both worlds...
>However, you won't have much help from your
>very democratic friends, you'll be forced to take
>the lot, whether you'll like it or not...
>Good luck, anyway...

>
>
>
>>
>> We are a group of Vietnamese who are willing to learn how your people
>> liberated your country from the dictators in 1989.
>> Please forward your experience and/or any documents which we could learn
>> from.
>> Thank You!
>
>
        Please, don't take Eva Durant too seriously. She doesn't believe in
the nonsocialist economic model.

        Eva Balogh

At 05:13 PM 6/26/96 -0700, Eva Balogh wrote:

>        But let's turn to the Hungarian situation. Hungarian schools used to
>be of very high standards especially on the high-school level. The reason
>for that, let's say 30-40 years ago, was that relatively few people went to
>gymnasium.

This is very interesting.  The decline of the 'high standards' started to
happen soon after the 'communists' took power. And they had the gall to
allow the snotty-nosed offspring of the dreaded proles to attend high school.

>Therefore, the student body was self-selective.

Oh, really!  As if money and wealth had nothing to do with it.  I wonder how
many intelligent, but poor, working-class teenagers "self-selected"
themselves to go to high school?

>Even a mediocre student in a Hungarian gymnasium was way above the average
>student, let's say, in the United States. However, more and more Hungarian
>children go to gymnasiums or their equivalents and therefore the pool is
not >as good as it was a few decades ago.

And certainly not as good as in the good old days when only the sons and
daughters of the elite could afford high school.  The proles diluted the
gene pool!!

>Second, as I mentioned, the Hungarians also adopted the practice of
separate >institutions for future teachers.

I see this as a good idea, not a bad one.

>        Prestige of teachers also dropped considerably in the last forty
>years or so. When I entered fifth grade, most of my teachers had doctorates
>in their fields. They belonged to a very small, highly educated elite.

Indeed they did!  And the rest of the Hungarians?  Did anyone care about
them?  No!

Joe Szalai

At 02:15 AM 7/3/96 -0700, Tibor Benke wrote:

>In short, Eva (Balogh) is the sort of historian, of whom there are still,
>unfortunately, too many, who believes that the most important part of
>hitory is to recunstruct the 'facts'.

Especially if the 'facts' further their agenda.  And I, for one, have never
doubted that Eva Balogh has an agenda.  I just don't agree with it.

Joe Szalai

At 09:26 PM 7/2/96 -0700, Gabor Farkas wrote:

>Prices of energy and bread were increased by 50-60% yesterday in Romania.
>One liter of unleaded gas is now 900 lei ($1~3,500 lei).

        I think the Hungarian price of gasoline is higher than that. Over
$1.00 per liter. It just went up another five forints per liter because the
price of oil worldwide went up also, as we can tell in this country.
Gasoline prices in Connecticut are very high at the moment.

        Eva Balogh

To close the circle on this topic ( I am not implying that I want to close
the discussion, just that I opened it in  a similar way), a recent issue of
Nepszabadsag published an article about the efforts made to retrain the
teachers in Hungary that will be unemployed do to the demographic changes.

Even the teachers' union leader seemed happy.

Gabor D. Farkas

At 07:55 PM 7/3/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>...I for one, have never
>doubted that Eva Balogh has an agenda.  I just don't agree with it.

Because it doesn't match yours. You see, I think that you have an agenda.
And I am sure you think I have one. And so on, and so on.

That's what makes this list (and many other ones) interesting. Otherwise
they would be like brainwashing sessions in the "good old days" where the
party theses were analyzed.

Gabor D. Farkas

> Dear Friends:
> We are a group of Vietnamese living in the United States.
> We would like to learn how your country was liberated from the Communist
> Dictatorship in 1989.  Could you please share with us your experience
> and/or tell us where to get the related documents.

I think that the fundamental differences between Eastern Europe and Vietnam
make very little of the Eastern-European experience applicable to Vietnam.

In particular, the threat of Soviet intervention on behalf of the Communist
regimes was the single most important source of their stability.  Once that
was withdrawn, the Communist elites were on their own.  Most were not
callous enough to reinstate terror against their own populations, and
neither were most of the state instrumentalities to be used in a terror
campaign unquestioningly subservient to the existing regime (cf. Romania).
Besides, the ruling elites perceived that they could transform themselves
into internationally acceptable democratic parties and still cut it in a
liberal democratic political system - in which they were proven right.

In Vietnam, as in China, there is no incentive for the ruling elites to
accept a transformation along the Eastern-European lines, for the exact
opposite of the factors above applies.

There is also a deep cultural difference in that Confucian reverence of
the rulers (even the authoritarian ones) by the ruled is deeply ingrained
in the Orient, as is the perceived need for harmony and consensus.  There
is no such sentiment in Europe.  On the contrary, to hold and voice opposing
ideas is seen as legitimate behaviour.

Hence, in my view, the transformation of the totalitarian/authoritarian
regimes in South-East Asia is going to be a much longer process than in
Eastern Europe.  As a precondition, it will require a changed popular
perception about the rights or wrongs of authoritarian government, plus
a clear need to be acceptable internationally.  These factors, particularly
the latter, have already brought about changes in South Korea and Taiwan
(both threatened by hostile neighbours and needing Western help to defend
themselves).

Vietnam is more dependent on the goodwill of the outside world than China
(for foreign investment, to reduce the danger of social explosion due to
unemployment growth due to population growth), so there is a better chance
of real political change the in the mid- to long term than in China.

George Antony

In article >,  says...
>
>In article >,
 says...
>
>>        I received eight and he dumped about 40 identical messages on
>>soc.culture.magyar. I already wrote to . We should also
ask
>>Hugh to remove MEgorov from the list of contributors because he is
>>obviously up to no good.
>
>One doesn't have to be a subscriber to blh to post here. I'm not on
>the list and post via the totally public Usenet gateway with free
>software available (downloaded from an Internet ftp site); i.e., I don't
>receive blh postings via e-mail, I currently use WinVN Usenet newsreader
>(BTW excellent for small capacity PCs like my 4MB RAM 386 laptop) I'm
>supposing most contributors receive and post to this list via e-mail...
>is this right?
>
>Perhaps our aol "friend" posted via Usenet. (I received one sample
>of his e-mail which could also have been sent via a Usenet newsreader.)
>
>George
>
>--
> George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
> Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy **** NW London Computer Club **** ICPUG
>
I also use the newsnet, but everybody's e-mail address appears as soon as
one posts a message.  Agnes

At 06:22 PM 7/3/96 -0700, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

>At 07:55 PM 7/3/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>
>>...I for one, have never
>>doubted that Eva Balogh has an agenda.  I just don't agree with it.
>
>Because it doesn't match yours. You see, I think that you have an agenda.
>And I am sure you think I have one. And so on, and so on.

True enough, Gabor.  However, my agenda is to bring some truth to the
ubiquitous right-wing blather on this newsgroup.

Joe Szalai