Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
HIX HUNGARY 90
Copyright (C) HIX
1994-09-29
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Stupidity Tax... (mind)  7 sor     (cikkei)
2 Silence? (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: wealth tax (mind)  70 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Back from Hungary (mind)  49 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: wealth tax (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
6 two new weeklies (was Re: Back from Hungary) (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
7 wine (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Media watch (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: Silence? (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: wealth tax (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Silence? (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
12 gopher link to Hungarian Foreign Ministry "newsletter" (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: wealth tax (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Hungarian Folk Costumes (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: The Slovak dam (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: wealth tax (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
17 Media watch (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Gypsies (mind)  23 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Gypsies (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Wealth tax (mind)  37 sor     (cikkei)
21 Political criminals (mind)  79 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: wealth tax (mind)  115 sor     (cikkei)
23 wine/kings (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Political criminals (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
25 New York Hungarian House (mind)  70 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: wealth tax (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Stupidity Tax... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hungary should consider adopting the Stupid Tax, which a lot of western nations
rely on for increased revenue.  The Stupid Tax is much more efficient than any
sort of Wealth Tax and it generates a lot more revenue.  The real beauty with
the Stupid Tax is that it is the only tax that people voluntarily pay.  Since
it is based on one's stupidity and lack of intellegence, the dumber you are
the more you are willing to pay.  Of course this tax is more commonly known in
the US as the Lottery and in Europe as Lotto....marc
+ - Silence? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Is the list down?
I am not seeing any messages.
Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: wealth tax (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 26 Sep 1994 22:03:59 EDT Sipos Gyorgy said:
>"In an article entitled "Media Watch", Eva Balogh mentions with disapproval
>that Gyula Horn has raised, as a trial baloon, the notion of a "wealth
>tax". <etc...>"
>
>Aside from the unfortunate fact that a lot of hu"lye people agree with
>you, on what logic do you base the idea that the rich should pay a
>disproportionately larger share of taxes?

--I'm not sure of whom the question is asked, but certainly not Eva
Balogh, since she disapproves of a wealth tax.  I was one of those
in the discussion, though, so I would like to stick in a comment.

I don't think that anybody suggested that the rich should pay a
disproportionate share of taxes, although I think that Tibor from
Canada did suggest that a wealth tax was a good idea, given what he
called the "dismantling" of social benefits in Western Europe.

I disagreed with him on this last point.  Western Europeans are
not dismantling their social benefit structure.  They have reduced
the growth of what in America are called "entitlements."  The
universal benefits haven't been increased.  Instead, more benefits
are means-tested, and more co-payment is required from those who
are able to pay.  This makes good sense to me.

But back to the original question.   Actually, Adam Smith suggested
that the rich should pay a disproportionally larger share of the
tax!  His rationale was that they should do this because they got
a larger share of the state's protection and used a larger share
of the state's services.  For example, the rich use the courts more
than the poor, primarily for business law purposes.

Smith's general principles on taxation are contained in Book V of
*The Wealth of Nations*, a book that is cited often, but evidently not
read very often.

Actually, in America, the rich pay a disproportionally low amount of
the taxes.  Although they pay higher marginal rates of income tax, most
taxation is regressive.  Two quick examples.  There are flat-rate taxes
on petrol or gasoline.  A man making $10,000 a year pays the same tax
per gallon as a man making $1,000,000,000.  It behooves the poor man to
drive as little as he can, since the tax per gallon means more to him
than it does to the millionaire.  Second example.  Social Security taxes
are 7.65% of income up to a cut-off of about $67,500 (this year).  The
man making $10,000 pays 7.65% of his income toward Social Security.  The
man making a million pays 7.65% on his first $67,500--but nothing after
that.  On whom does the burden fall most heavily?

Well-to-do people also get fringe benefits that are not taxable or are
tax-deferred.  While I do not think that the rich should pay a
disproportionate amount of the taxes, as does Smith, I would argue that
the accent on taxation should be toward progressive taxes and away from
regressive sales, excise, and value-added taxes so that the rich would
pay a proportionate amount of the taxation.

In Hungary, a lot of people made money under the Communists.  I once
discussed this with a young woman at Etvos Lorand.  I jokingly asked,
"But surely no one got rich under Communism?"  She looked at me with
an arch smile and replied, "Surely you are not that naive!"  Her
argument was that people close to the administration had many
opportunities to make a great deal of money, which ostensibly now
reposes in a Swiss bank.  There was some knowing talk on the street
about how to get hold of some of this for investment in Hungary.  The
problem was that if it were invested, everyone would know for sure
who had profited under the Communists.

Sorry this got out of hand and is too long, but it's 6:00 a.m. and I
got carried away.

Charles
+ - Re: Back from Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hello to everyone!

Kornai writes:

> Just came back from Hungary

Well, what a coincidence!  I just got back myself a few days ago.

> Cleared up a few minor points that have been debated long on this list: the
> journalist accused of alcoholism/making a mess in Australia was Zelei,

Indeed, I recognize the name now.  His first name may have been Laszlo.
That rings most familiar, but I would not bet on it.  Considering that
Kornai almost called me a liar for mentioning the story without
recalling the name, I take Kornai's revelation as a veiled apology. ;-)
Unfortunately, Kornai could not stop at that and introduced another
misinformation:

> is known as politically neutral (neither MSZP/SZDSZ nor MDF/MIEP) and as a
> journalist he is best known for promoting Edward Teller's ideas in Hungary.
> Just as a curiousity, Zelei wrote books together with another journalist
> named Gazso1, and at least one of these books (I haven't read the others)
> concludes with an extensive quotation from a newspaper article by guess who?
> our very own Joe Pannon! So it seems there is a bit of private feud between
> these guys, maybe a once warm professional relationship gone sour, or just
> the opposite, Joe couldn't recall Zelei's name because he wanted to cover up
> for an old pal, it doesn't really matter one way or another.

Well, it matters to me because I don't have the faintest what the heck
you are talking about, Janos!  I certainly don't know either of those
journalists and I don't know what newspaper article you are talking
about unless it's from one of the electronic (HIX?) forums.  Or perhaps from
the newsletter of our Seattle area Hungarian-American Association?
Let's have some quotes from that article allegedly written by me, shall
we?  The "author" would like to know about it.

> Whether Zelei
> is an alcoholic is still unclear (but he is the one who has been singled out
> by this accusation by the Tom Kennedy crowd) but it is clear he isn't/wasn't
> a party hack.

I don't think I've branded Zelei himself as a Party hack, have I?

BTW, Kornai, did you notice how the issue of a new constitution's been
embraced by the new coalition now?  With almost the same arguments as
some of us "right wingers" used to promote the idea on the Hungarian
language HIX FORUM.  Isn't that ironic?

Joe Pannon
+ - Re: wealth tax (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Sipos Gyorgy writes:

> ...on what logic do you base the idea that the rich should pay a
> disproportionately larger share of taxes?

The logic that life is unfair?

--Greg
+ - two new weeklies (was Re: Back from Hungary) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andra1s Kornai writes:

> There are two new weeklies, U1j
> Demokrata (right-wing, but possibly not as bad as its predecessors, cheapo
> paper, B&W) and Respublika (politically neutral, shiny paper, color)

Any knowledge as to their ownership?  Foreign, domestic, mixed?

--Greg
+ - wine (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

generates a great deal of response. The facts: Alexander the Great lived and
 ruled between BC 336-323. At that time the Hungarian tribes lived a lot
 thousands of miles away from Alexander's realm. They dealed mainly with huntin
 and husbandry, but not with viticulture. The Hungarian's alcohol-bearing
 drink was the "kumisz" which means fermented horsemilk and this drink is
 still consumed in Mongolia. I am afraid that Alexander the Great (whatever
 great his realm was) had not even connection with Hungarians...

You are right, that would not make much sense.  However I am still quite
certain that I remember reading about a very famous ruler who enjoyed Hungarian
wine.  Perhaps Peter the Great?  Forgive my lack of historical knowledge, I was
educated in american public schools....marc
+ - Re: Media watch (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Jeliko writes:

> Gee, I feel so sorry for both sides. It reminds me of the fourth estate's
> behavior in the US. I am coming to the opinion that all estates
> representative's should be elected, and not self-appointed, or in many
> cases self-annointed.


"There is much to be said in favor of modern journalism.
By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch with
the ignorance of the community." -- Oscar Wilde


--Greg
+ - Re: Silence? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Roman Kanala writes:

> In article >, "JELIKO" >
writes:
> > Is the list down?
> > I am not seeing any messages.
> > Regards,Jeliko.

> Perhaps people just wait for a posting from me. Here it is.

> Roman Kanala
I think the direct list is down and only access is through Usenet.
Somewhere there is a logjam, (I did not want to write dam). Probably once
the pressure increases something will trickle through, than we will see
postings on osmotic floods and other novelties. :-)
Regards,Jeliko.
+ - Re: wealth tax (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Charles writes:

> Actually, Adam Smith suggested
> that the rich should pay a disproportionally larger share of the
> tax!  His rationale was that they should do this because they got
> a larger share of the state's protection and used a larger share
> of the state's services.  For example, the rich use the courts more
> than the poor, primarily for business law purposes.

Many things have changed since 1776, would you argue that his
rational is still valid?

--Greg
+ - Re: Silence? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "JELIKO" >
writes:
> Is the list down?
> I am not seeing any messages.
> Regards,Jeliko.

Perhaps people just wait for a posting from me. Here it is.

Roman Kanala
+ - gopher link to Hungarian Foreign Ministry "newsletter" (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Rather indirect, the data is on a NATO computer.

        gopher://gopher.nato.int/11/partners


Sample from most recent (9-16) posting

                        ***

  Government Approves Hungarian-Croat Water Management
Agreement


   Budapest, September 15 (MTI) - THE Hungarian government
approved the Hungarian-Croat water management agreement,
at its session on Thursday. It also approved the statutes
of the Hungarian-Croat Water Management Standing
Committee, government spokeswoman Evelyn Forro said in
Budapest on Thursday.

   The water management agreement between the two
countries was signed on June 10, 1994. The document is in
concert with the international convention signed in Sofia
in June, 1994, on the protection and use of the Danube.
The convention's effect extends to water management on the
Hungarian-Croat border waters, and to the exchange of
relevant information.

   The sides are to delegate three members each to the
Standing Committee.
                        ***



If someone knows of a more direct access to this newsletter,
please post.


--Greg
+ - Re: wealth tax (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Wed, 28 Sep 1994 09:51:39 -0700 > said:
>Charles writes:
>
>Many things have changed since 1776, would you argue that his
>rational is still valid?
>
--Fascinating!  First, someone asked me for a rationale.  I provided one.
Now someone complains that it is too old!  Then why do people on the right
cite Adam Smith frequently when they believe that his 1778 thinking supports
their point?  And I was citing from the 1801 edition, anyway!  That was the
last one that Smith himself had anything to do with.

--What has changed about the relationship between the rich and the poor
since 1776?  Do not the rich still get more benefit from the protection
of society?  Do not they use more of the nation's resources?  Has that
changed?

--Bear in mind that I am no socialist, but a believer in market systems.
Like Smith, however, I also believe in fairness.

Charles
+ - Re: Hungarian Folk Costumes (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

 writes on 9/27--
>Does anyone know of firm in North AMerica which produces traditional Hungarian
>Folk Costumes made to order?

No, I don't, but I would love to find out where to get a pair of those sexy
 black "peasant" boots that Hungarian folk dancers always wear!

Be1la

+ - Re: The Slovak dam (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Evidently matters are not as settled, legally, as Jan Geoge Frajkor would
like us to believe.  The RFERL-L reported the following item in its 9/27
Daily Report--
"SLOVAK GOVERNMENT APPOINTS COUNSEL FOR GABCIKOVO.  The Slovak cabinet has
appointed former Polish Foreign Minister [sic] Krysztof Skubiszewski to
represent Slovakia in the trial against Hungary over the Gabcikovo-Nagy-
maros dam, TASR reports.  The two countries agreed in April 1993 to bring the
case to the International Court of Justice in the Hague."

Udv.,
Be1la

+ - Re: wealth tax (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Charles writes:

> --What has changed about the relationship between the rich and the poor
> since 1776?
That's not what I wanted to get at.

> Do not the rich still get more benefit from the protection
> of society?
This is.  Whether this was true in 1801 or not, is it still true in a
modern welfare state?  And I suppose the comparison of rich vs middle class
might be more interesting.


> Do not they use more of the nation's resources?  Has that
> changed?

That's the question, and quoting authority from 1801 may not be enough
to settle it.

--Greg
+ - Media watch (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I am getting the impression that the new directors of MTV and MR are most
reluctant to relinquish some of the channels and frequencies they are using
currently. The director of MTV insists that both channels which MTV uses
currently must remain in state hands. Similarly, the director of the MR
claims that he needs all three stations, not just one or two. The director of
MTV announced that if the state television operated only on one channel, the
numbers of the employees would have to be drastically cut, and he is
unwilling to let some of his employees go. Apparently the parties, even the
SZDSZ which had been actively promoting speedy privatization in the past, are
silent on the issue. Andras Hanak, in the "Velemenyek" (Opinions) section of
HVG, claims that if both channels remain in state hands, the only available
channel may not be privatized easily because a great deal of investment is
necessary to make that channel strong enough to serve the whole country.

Did anyone hear anything new about plans for privatization of the electronic
media? Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Gypsies (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I totally agree with this assessment.
        Audrey

On Mon, 26 Sep 1994, Andras Kornai wrote:

> Audrey Wright writes:
> >Now, what I saw regarding Gypsies was very similar to what
> >I see regarding ethnic minority groups in this country.
> Perhaps at the level of everyday abuse/prejudices/racism it is.  But at the
> political/societal level the situation is quite different.  In the US, there
> is a black justice on the Supreme Court (maybe not the guy you'd want there,
> but still) there are black senators, congressmen, governors, mayors of big
> cities, state senators/congressmen, etc. etc. Their number in such positions
> is not proportional to that of blacks in general, but it is not zero either.
> At this point there might be a few token gypsies in Hungary's Parliament,
> but that's about it -- there are no gypsies in the judiciary or in the
> executive.  Even more importantly, the US has a significant black middle
> class, and there is nothing unusual in seeing a black doctor, lawyer,
> journalist, or university professor. I doubt there is one gypsy in Hungary
> with a degree in law or medicine!
>
> Andra1s Kornai
>
+ - Re: Gypsies (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Andra1s Kornai writes on 9/27--
>I doubt there is one [Hungarian] Gypsy with a degree in law or medicine!

Without in the least wishing to challenge Andra1s' very telling comparison
between the situation of blacks in America and Gypsies in Hungary, I might
simply note that I believe there are a number of Hungarian academics, not
all of them in folklore studies, who claim to be "of Gypsy origin," and I
understand that there is now an organization of Roma which is politically
active in trying to improve the situation of the Gypsy people in Hungary.

But I must also confess that when I was studying Hungarian at the Summer
University in Debrecen last year, a young, seemingly sophisticated female
phonologist told a viciously anti-Gypsy joke in front of a whole class of
West European students, and seemed taken aback when none of us laughed and
even criticized the propriety of such a joke.  There was also an abundance
of vicious anti-Gypsy graffiti around the city, even on munuments on the
main drag.  Two stand out--"Ciga1nyok India1ba" [Gypsies back to India] and
something to the effect that Gypsies should be put in concentration camps.

A far cry from the situation in the US indeed.

Udv.,
Be1la

+ - Re: Wealth tax (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 26 Sep 1994 17:17:28 EDT > said:
>
>I wish I knew exactly what *they* are talking about.

--Agreed.

>My feeling is that it would include all your money in the bank as well as in
>stocks and bonds. Perhaps even the value of your Persian rugs and
>19th-century marble clock would be included. And, I guess, you would have to
>assess the value of your library, in addition to your TV set and microwave.
>In plain language, everything you own.

--Sounds like it.  In this country, we call it a "personal property" tax,
and it isn't very effective.

                   Apparently such tax was in use in England for a short while
>after the Second World War.

--I believe that you are correct.  It didn't really work, because companies
increased the non-taxable fringe benefits, e.g., provided executives with
a company car or a vacation home owned by the company.

 Apparently, Hungary also tried it about the same
>time. According to the article I read, most economists consider it a bad
>idea: it would cost more to collect it than it would yield.

--Sure, because you'd have to have an army of accountants as think as
ants at a picnic.

 This "wealth tax"
>would be designed to unearth the hidden incomes. According to some estimates,
>this hidden economy accounts for one-third of the GDP. Even *Nepszabadsag,*
>close to the MSZP, was negative about it. If you read between the lines, the
>economic expert of the newspaper made it clear that its introduction would be
>stupid (szama1rsa1g).

--Finally you have found a smart economist!  Not too many of those around!
+ - Political criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I discovered a very interesting item in HVG, entitled "Eminence rouge"
(Vo2ro2s eminencia1s), written by Ja1nos M. Rainer, a professional historian.
The piece is based on documentary evidence.

According to a news item which appeared on September 9, Sa1ndor Rajnai, with
a title of general in the police force and later Hungary's ambassador to
Moscow, had died. About a year and a half ago news leaked out that Rajnai had
emigrated to Israel and from there he moved to the United States. His
emigration to Israel was confirmed, but his place of residence in the United
States was not known. According to rumors he was working on his
autobiography. In the late 80s he lived alone in the outskirts of Pest in the
company of several guard dogs. Quite a few people question--and not without
reason--his death. In any case, the Capital Burying Institute confirms that
he was buried in the morning of September 12 in the Farkasre1ti cemetery.

Rajnai's last years and his death are not more mysterious than his whole
obscure career. He was one of the many barely known eminences grises of the
Kadar regime. His formal position didn't normally correspond with his
political importance. For example, it was only during his tenure of
ambassador to Moscow that he became member of the party's central committee,
but even then only ex officio.

He joined the political police in May 1946, at the age of 24. They don't know
much about his activities during this period but in 1955 his name appeared in
a document which detailed the unlawful actions of some AVO officers in
connection with the Rajk, Ka1da1r, and So1lyom trials. According to rumors he
was one of the interrogators of Ge1za Losonczy after Losonczy was arrested in
1951. However, despite these revelations he remained in the AVO. At the end
of October 1956 he ended up, in the company of a few hundred AVO officers, at
the To2ko2l headquarters the Soviet army command in Hungary. There, on
November 2, the AVH officers elected him to be their squad leader. He was 34
years old at the time and his rank was lieutenant colonel.

On February 16, 1957 the MSZMP decided to go ahead with the trial of the
members of the Imre Nagy government at the time interned in Romania. Kadar in
March traveled to Moscow to get the green light from the Kremlin. By that
time Rajnai and his subordinates were already in Romania. As soon as he got
the word, Rajnai began his interrogation of Gyo2rgy Fazekas, Ga1bor Ta1nczos
and Jo1zsef Szila1gyi. On April 14, Rajnai arrested Imre Nagy himself and
flew to Hungary bringing the prisoners along.

At the Ministry of Interior's II/8 Department, under the direction of Rajnai
a separate, more than thirty-member, investigative unit was formed just to
deal with the 88 most important prisoners, from Imre Nagy to Istva1n Bibo1
and A1rpa1d Go2ncz. Rajnai's name does not appear on any of the official
minutes but he was the one who wrote the reports on the ongoing investigation
to his superiors. Many of these reports didn't stop at the desk of Be1la
Biszku or Ja1nos Ka1da1r. At least three of them were carried by Ka1da1r to
Moscow during a secret trip to the Soviet Union in June 1957. A couple of
months later another report by Rajnai was carried to Andropov by Biszku.

However, Rajnai's days were numbered in the Ministry of Interior. He, along
with several other AVO officers involved in the 1950's political trial, had
to leave the ministry in July 1962. He was sent to the Hungarian embassy in
Moscow as a counselor.

On May 27, 1966 he became an employee of the Ministry of Interior again and
remained there until the end of 1976. Even today the Ministry of Interior
refuses to disclose his exact position; according to some he was the head of
intelligence. In 1978 he became Hungarian ambassador to Bucharest and four
years later, in August 1982 he became ambassador to Moscow. He remained in
this post until 1989.

The article continues by saying that in the last few years there has been
quite a discussion about the nature of the Kadar regime. Was it the
continuation of the Ra1kosi regime, pure and simple, or was it something
else, which, after a period of "unavoidable" repression, completely broke
with the classical methods of Stalinism. Rajnai's case shows that the regime,
if circumstances dictated, used Rajnai's earlier experience without the
slightest hestiation; moreover, during 1957 and 1958 he was put in a key
position. Later the regime tried to place him farther away from the center.
But to completely remove him and everything he stood for was not possible;
probably those in power didn't really want to do so.

That the end of the article--it is a fairly free but accurate translation of
the original. I must say that as I was reading it my blood was boiling. A
fellow like him ending up in Israel and subsequently in the United States!
But I guess it is all the fault of the Hungarian government which didn't
prosecute men like Rajnai and his ilk. Eva Balogh
+ - Re: wealth tax (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On Mon, 26 Sep 1994 17:10:05 EDT Peter Biegelbauer said:
>Charles,
>
>you say in your message from Sun, 25 Sep 1994 18:27:03 CDT that Western
>European
>welfare states are not being dismantled.
>
--Correct.  Dismantled means taken apart, right?

>Well then,
>how do you explain that people now have to pay in quite a few countries for
> education
>- regardless of their financial situation - when they did not have to before ?

--But they have not shut down the school system, have they?  Most European
countries now require co-payment from those who can afford to pay, because
totally free education at the level it was being offered is too expensive
for the level of taxation available.  In the 1960s, welfare states expanded
tremendously fueled by the Cold War and cheap oil.  After the oil embargo,
they were faced, in Ramesh Mishra's words with the difficult choice of
increasing taxes or cutting services.  Ultimately, they have done both.

>How do you interpret the fact that people have to take on jobs in most
>countries, regardless of the qualifications they may be able to offer for the
> job
>market, whereas before they could refuse to do so until they found a job
>corresponding appropriately to their needs.

--Because of the above.  The oil embargo was a watershed event, and as
the resulting increase in the price of fuel percolated through the world
economy, companies engaged in a number of strategies to survive.
Unemployment rose, increasing the cost of the welfare state.  The boom
of the 1960s was over and things went back to "normal."

>How do you interpret the fact that in most countries nowadays you get less
>unemployment benefits than before - and often for a shorter time period.

--Same line of reasoning.  Most European nations had very generous benefits.
These benefits have to be paid for through taxation.  Sweden was notorious
for absenteeism and extremely generous fringe benefits, e.g. maternal
leave for fathers as well as mothers.  This just proved too expensive,
given the narrower profit margins in a more competitive economy.

>What do you say about pensions not raised in line with inflation rates.

--Same answer.  How can they be paid for under todays economic conditions?

>What do you think about the widening of the bandwith between richest and
>poorest
>10 percent of the population in all Western European countries, with the
>partial
> exception of
>Germany and one Scandinavian country - Germany before reunification, that is.
>
--Actually, it's happening in Sweden as well, but it is greatest in the
U.S.  There are several reasons, but this posting would get too long if I
listed them all.  Here's one.  Today's "high tech" economy demands experts.
Good experts command high salaries.  In the old days, when the economy
depended on labor-intensive factories, one employee was more like another,
and they both got approximately the same wages.  Today, a good computer
programmer is worth significantly more than an average one.

>In Western Europe nobody doubts that the welfare state is being reduced, or
>streamlined, as some prefer.

--I'm one of those who prefers streamlined.  But that isn't dismantling.
General Motors has reduced its work force.  Does that suggest to you that
GM is being dismantled?

 There are, however, only few people who would not
>agree with the thrust of your argument which seems to be that there were
>problems with the classic welfare system of the 60/70s.

--Most people would agree with me?  Good.  Maybe we'll get some significant
reform.  There were and are problems in most Western welfare systems.  Here's
one.  Even in a full-employment welfare state, inequality gaps widen.  Why?
Because compensation and benefits tend to flow upwards.  Higher salaried
workers get larger entitlements.  Here's another.  The uncoordinated growth
of what Titmuss called all three forms of welfare (fringe benefits, tax
losses, and social benefits) tends to increase inequality.  The major
villain are tax losses--breaks that some get that others do not that
increases one person's welfare over another's.  In the U. S., over
600 billion will be lost in tax breaks this year.  Some of these serve
a national purpose, others just represent favors done for special
interests, e.g., deductions allowed on home mortgages helps homeowners,
real estate salespeople, banks, and the construction industry.  Subsidies
to tobacco farmers help only the tobacco farmers and are the result of
a strong special interest lobby.

 Since the national
> economies of
>Western Europe experienced serious economic problems only since the 80s, nobod
y
>cared much about these inefficiencies, as I would call them, until the
>economies
>went downhill.

--You are exactly right.
>
>So, most Western Europeans will agree with you that the welfare state has to b
e
>reformed. The question only is, do you think the changes one can see right now
>are good as they are. Judging them by their effects, I don't. Do you ?
>
--A bit soon to tell.  But tell me, Peter, why should I pay taxes to provide
medical care for the Rockefeller family?  Under universal health care, that's
what I'd be expected to do if medical care was free at the point of service
as it is in the U.K.  How responsible am I for a person who chooses not to
accept a decent job on the grounds that it is not quite what he or she wants?
I believe that user charges make economic sense and are equitable.  I think
that individuals must accept some responsibility for themselves and not
depend on me if they can do something toward self-support.  What's wrong
with that?

Charles
+ - wine/kings (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In reply to your message of "Sun, 25 Sep 94 19: 48:52 GMT."
             >
Date: Wed, 28 Sep 94 19:15:32 -0700
From: 


 From the Hungarian Home Pages

Tokaji Aszz is described as Wine of Kings and King of Wines (Vinum Regum,
Rex Vinorum), but it is more an aperitif-desert wine.


I've seen claims that Louis XIV coined that phrase.

--Greg
+ - Re: Political criminals (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh writes:

> A
> fellow like him ending up in Israel and subsequently in the United States!

He may have cooperated with the CIA, as a price for entry, or earlier in his
career.  Sheer speculation, of course; but it wouldn't've been the first time..
.

--Greg
+ - New York Hungarian House (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

News from the New York HUNGARIAN HOUSE:

After a long, hot summer the New York HUNGARIAN HOUSE has opened its doors agai
n
renewed, refreshed and with a spectacular new coat of paint.

The first event was an interesting evening organized by the Hungarian Human
 Rights
Foundation that introduced Mr. Sandor Sara, President of DUNA TV. (The event wa
s
 also
the debut of The Hungarian House's new Video Projector System.)

Next, a fantastic group from Slovakia, the Ghymes Ensemble gave a concert - a
 combination
of solid Hungarian Folk Music, peppered with modern jazz and R&B.  After the
 formal
concert, the enthusiastic audience cleared the chairs and got down to serious
 "Tanchaz"
business. (Literally: dance house - call it a Hungarian version of square
 dancing.)

Our Thursday night "Social Circle" (Tarsaskor) and Folk Dance Fridays also got
 off to a new
start.

What's next in October?

Sunday, Oct. 2nd at 4 PM: GAL SANDOR  "MAGYARSAGTUDAT KISSEBSEGBEN"
(sorry, folks, its only in Hungarian).  The writer lives in Slovakia and wrote
 over 30 books.
Winner of the Jozsef Attila and Madach Prizes, chief editor of the "Keleti
 Naplo" in Kassa,
his works discuss the needs, problems and hopes of all humanity - including
 those of the
Hungarian minority.  Contribution:  $8, senior and students $5.

Friday - Sunday Oct 14 through 16:  DANCE FEVER HITS THE HUNGARIAN HOUSE!

Friday 10/14 7:30PM  Steve Kotansky and Susan Snyder-Kotansky teach Hungarian
 Gipsy
Dances, followed by general folk dancing.  Cost:$7
Info: 212 942-3768

Saturday 10/15 from 1:30 to 5:30PM:  Workshop and Tanchaz.  Natalia Zagyva
 teaches
Gyimesi Csango dances.  (Natalia danced with ELTE Budapest's group and now
 teaches
Hungarian dances and children's games at the Hungarian Consulate.) Sponsored by
 the
Hungarian Folklore Centrum, cost is $7.Info: 516-741-5109

Saturday Night (10/15):  Starting at 8PM till the bitter end...  B U L I !!!
If you know what a buli is, come! If you don't, come and find out!  Cost: $8
Info: 212 249-9360

Sunday (are you still with us?):  Swedish Fiddle and Dance Workshop and Dance
 Party!!!
1PM:  Fiddle Classes.  3PM: Dance Classes  Party: 7:30.  (almost forgot:
 Nyckelharpa class
for nyckelharpa afficionados and others at noon.)  Cost: $15 for the whole day.
Info:  Carolyn:  212 369-1843

*************************************************************************
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*     213 East 82nd Street      *                                       *
* (between 2nd and 3rd Avenues) *                     *
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+ - Re: wealth tax (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> On Mon, 26 Sep 1994 22:03:59 EDT Sipos Gyorgy said:
>
> But back to the original question.   Actually, Adam Smith suggested
> that the rich should pay a disproportionally larger share of the
> tax!  His rationale was that they should do this because they got
> a larger share of the state's protection and used a larger share
> of the state's services.  For example, the rich use the courts more
> than the poor, primarily for business law purposes.

Is this still true?  It seems that the prisons are full mostly with the
not-so-rich whose cases must have gone through the courts.
Then consider the huge welfare load: that is also for the benefit of the
poor, not the rich.

> Actually, in America, the rich pay a disproportionally low amount of
> the taxes.  Although they pay higher marginal rates of income tax, most
> taxation is regressive.  Two quick examples.  There are flat-rate taxes
> on petrol or gasoline.  A man making $10,000 a year pays the same tax
> per gallon as a man making $1,000,000,000.  It behooves the poor man to
> drive as little as he can, since the tax per gallon means more to him
> than it does to the millionaire.

Let him use the much cheaper public transportation then.

>  Second example.  Social Security taxes
> are 7.65% of income up to a cut-off of about $67,500 (this year).  The
> man making $10,000 pays 7.65% of his income toward Social Security.  The
> man making a million pays 7.65% on his first $67,500--but nothing after
> that.  On whom does the burden fall most heavily?

I had the impression that Social Security was not a general tax, but a
retirement scheme.  Do the rich get more out of it after retirement than
the poor as compared to what they paid into it?  I doubt it.
I just know for myself that I'm going to get far more out of my private
pension into which I am paying far less than my SS tax is.
>
What does this all have to do with Hungary, anyway?

Joe Pannon

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