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Re: Charlie's Kindergarten Apologia (mind) |
6 sor |
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2. |
Hungary list versus Forum (mind) |
78 sor |
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3. |
Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) |
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correction (mind) |
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A new Marshall Plan and other economic matters (mind) |
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Surname "Marczi" and "Bagonyi" (mind) |
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Groupthink, LSD, Oil of Ole, and other sundry things. (mind) |
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That sneaky Kadarist elite in Hungary and the West (mind) |
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+ - | Re: Charlie's Kindergarten Apologia (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
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At 09:42 AM 6/10/96 +1000, Tom Kramer wrote:
>In turn, Mr Vamossy, you may wish to upgrade your skills and return to
>kindergarten for a course in common courtesy and elementary logic.
As always, I am ready to accept good advice -- and offer it in return.
|
+ - | Hungary list versus Forum (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
:
>Boy, if the contributors to the FORUM don't like Andras,
>they'd hate me.
Who was your father then, Rakosi himself ?
Aniko:
>Good heavens dear Group! ... could Tamas Kocsis be another alias
>of our beloved Dr. Szucs coming to life ?
I am not an alias. I've been writing to Forum quite awhile.
>His words do sound familiar !!
There is one big difference. That guy has come here to provoke you.
But i am here because I was provoked. That's why I made personal re-
marks, which i haven't made here before. The accusation has started
here in this very place by the childish accusation of Forum. Some
people from this list happily joined in the mud throwing game. The
whole Forum was accused without making distinctions amongst the wri-
ters, because of one or two persons (whom Eva dislikes very much).
>Could you "Tamas" or anyone out there explain "somewhat an american
>thingy" ???
Some Hungarian American have strong dislike against other Hungarian
Americans. I am outsider in their game. Their beliefs,the emphasizes,
their tabous mean next to nothing to me. They also seems to be unsen-
sitive to my tabous, my emphasizes and my beliefs.
Farkas D. Gabor:
>Could someone please explain the difference between
>the two rules ?
Aniko:
>Firstly; I have been a Hungarian for as long as I can remember! No
>one has *ever* taught me the "Hungarian rules in discussions"
No PC, no denouncation, in some cases passionate arguments. Yes, you
might be attacked personally. If you have butter on your head you
should not stand to the sun. If you have nothing to hide,the personal
attacts are aimless and you are able to shake them off with gain on
your side. Otherwise you should stay away, here for example, as some
ex-forum writer are doing it.
>Secondly: "Anglosaxon way of arguments" How about defining that too?
This was the topics of discussion several times in the history of HIX.
If you are interested in it, go and search after.
>You don't like Kornai! And, so, anyone else that might enjoy his posts
>are automatically categorized as "bastards of communist nomenclature"?
Wrong conclusion. The "bastards of communist nomenclature" may be un-
grammatical but it is very real categorization. It has nothing to do
with enjoying someone's posts.
Eva Balogh:
>As far as discrediting those who fought against communist oppression
>in 1956 nobody ever tried to discredit me for my role in 1956 from the
>"liberal communist" side;
It is not surprising. They need you for cover and you accept their game.
Either because you are just vain, naive and snobberish as usual or you
really belongs to them, to the liberal communist side. With the excep-
tion of some of your economical views, which are indeed conservative,
your views on Hungarian scale are leftish/socialist,so your attraction
to them is not without ground. I don't know what's this on USA scale,
however.
>He also tried to discredit the whole revolution.
>We "revolutionaries" make him sick, he said!
Do you really want to say, that you are belonged to that communist
political adventurer scum that I actually tried to discredit ?
Tamas
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+ - | Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
my whole take on this topic, for all it's worth, is pure amazement that Mr.
Nemenyi and his ilk honestly believe that "international jewry" would waste
its precious time and resources on cranky old Hungarians.
my impression is that this was simply a conspiracy theory invented to make
themselves feel feared and therefore powerful, which they most certainly are
not.
a ego power-trip and nothing more.
Sven
Confederate Faerie Wonderboy
"This temple is just SCREAMING for drapes!!!"
-King David's boyfriend Jonathan's initial reaction to the bare-walled
Temple of Solomon.
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+ - | Re: Who denounced NPA? (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
At 05:36 PM 6/9/96 -0700, I wrote:
>The discussion centered
>around the Bolshevik revolution and I said something to the effect that most
>likely the Bolshevik revolution would have taken place without the outbreak
>of World War I.
What I meant to say, of course, was: "most likely the Bolshevik
revolution wouldn't have taken place without the outbreak of World War I."
Eva Balogh
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+ - | Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary at St. Patrick's Cathe (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
At 08:13 PM 6/7/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>At 09:31 AM 6/7/96 -0400, Sven, Confederate Faerie Wonderboy, responding to
>George Antony's comment, "I think that your opposite opinion does not concur
>with the sentiments of most Hungarians", wrote:
>
>>this i view as a compliment, as it recognises my refusal to follow the
>>groupthink of the majority, and places me safely outside that which Hannah
>>Arendt would deem "common"
>
>Good one, Sven! Groupthink, like mothers milk, is warm and comforting.
>Some members of this newsgroup want it all the time, and they want others to
>want it too. They mistake the anesthetizing effects of groupthink for love,
>acceptance, "fitting in", and all that other gooey stuff that so many get
>stuck on. But, alas! It's an illusion. Groupthinkers raison d'etre is to
>be enfolded into the flock, and once there, they really don't give a fuck
>about "the other".
One cannot make a blanket statement like this. Just the other day
one could read the obituary of Timothy Leary, the promoter of LSD. He was
different all right, he didn't "groupthink." He just swallowed enough LSD to
fry his brains out. And he urged other young people to do the same. And
thousands followed him. At age of 75, judging from his picture, he looked as
if he were 95. Not all "difference" is good or acceptable.
Eva Balogh
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+ - | Re: Solemn High Mass for Hungary at St. Patrick's Cathe (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
>Not all "difference" is good or acceptable.
difference is neither inherently good nor evil, but rejecting an idea based
on it's rarity is purely baseless.
i believe that in your post you actually agreed to our displeasure of
groupthink.
separating onesself from that which is "common" does not infer blind
acceptance of everything which falls outside the values of the nebulous
majority, but rather guarding one's integral value of questioning the group.
in other words, rejection of groupthink involves realising the imperfection
of humanity and paramount personal (individual) moral responsibility.
in the example you cited, Jerry Garcia had the right to stone himself to
death, but those who blindly followed him toward the grave are themselves
victims of groupthink, surrendering their individuality to a trend. the
size of the group in question is irrelevant.
i hope this clears things up
Sven
Confederate Faerie Wonderboy
"This temple is just SCREAMING for drapes!!!"
-King David's boyfriend Jonathan's initial reaction to the bare-walled
Temple of Solomon.
|
+ - | correction (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
replace Jerry Garcia with Timothy Leary in my previous post
sorry - different names/same concept
Sven
Confederate Faerie Wonderboy
"This temple is just SCREAMING for drapes!!!"
-King David's boyfriend Jonathan's initial reaction to the bare-walled
Temple of Solomon.
|
+ - | Re: Hungary list versus Forum (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
At 03:25 AM 6/10/96 +0100, Tamas Kocsis is in the swing of things again:
:
>>Boy, if the contributors to the FORUM don't like Andras,
>>they'd hate me.
>
>Who was your father then, Rakosi himself ?
Also, he has no sense of humor:
>Aniko:
>>Good heavens dear Group! ... could Tamas Kocsis be another alias
>>of our beloved Dr. Szucs coming to life ?
>
>I am not an alias. I've been writing to Forum quite awhile.
>>His words do sound familiar !!
>
>There is one big difference. That guy has come here to provoke you.
>But i am here because I was provoked.
I can't recall of you being provoked on this list. No one even
mentioned your name. Most people didn't even know you existed.
>That's why I made personal re-
>marks, which i haven't made here before. The accusation has started
>here in this very place by the childish accusation of Forum.
I repeat. No one included you among the objectionable people who,
unfortunately, are extremely loud on the Forum. As a result, they are the
ones who gave the Forum its general favor.
>Some
>people from this list happily joined in the mud throwing game. The
>whole Forum was accused without making distinctions amongst the wri-
>ters, because of one or two persons (whom Eva dislikes very much).
Eva dislikes them very much indeed, because I think that they belong
to the extreme right. They don't have a democratic bone in their body,
although they pay lip service to the notions of democracy.
>>Could you "Tamas" or anyone out there explain "somewhat an american
>>thingy" ???
>
>Some Hungarian American have strong dislike against other Hungarian
>Americans. I am outsider in their game.
You don't really know what you are talking about. As far as I am
concerned these people could live in Timbuktu and I still would feel exactly
the same. Moreover, there are quite a few from Hungary whose ideas I equally
dislike--in fact, so much so, that after a while I refused to answer their
letters.
>>Could someone please explain the difference between
>>the two rules ?
>
>Aniko:
>>Firstly; I have been a Hungarian for as long as I can remember! No
>>one has *ever* taught me the "Hungarian rules in discussions"
>
>No PC, no denouncation, in some cases passionate arguments. Yes, you
>might be attacked personally. If you have butter on your head you
>should not stand to the sun. If you have nothing to hide,the personal
>attacts are aimless and you are able to shake them off with gain on
>your side. Otherwise you should stay away, here for example, as some
>ex-forum writer are doing it.
Well, first of all, if you are silly enough to believe Nemenyi, you
are either very naive or ideologically so blind that you are ready to
believe anything. Nemenyi simply can't prove anything and I am ready to bet
any amount of money that not a word of this accusation is true. I am on very
friendly terms with all those people who are being accused of
"denunciations," and believe me not one of them would do anything of the
sort. And that includes myself. They are decent people, even if you think
that all liberals (all sons and daughters of the nomenclature) are
scoundrels. Look, I spent seven or eight years of my life dealing with
students and I learned a lot during those years. Among many things: there
are a lot of people out there who don't always tell the truth. They swear
that the paper was written and shoved under Professor So and So's
door--ready to swear on the Bible and I was ready to believe them, only to
find out two weeks later that not one word of it was true. As a result I
have developed a healthy skepticism in matters like this.
>Eva Balogh:
>>As far as discrediting those who fought against communist oppression
>>in 1956 nobody ever tried to discredit me for my role in 1956 from the
>>"liberal communist" side;
>
>It is not surprising. They need you for cover and you accept their game.
Oh yes, this is a favorite retort. I have heard that earlier, that
time, uttered in Hungarian. All these liberal communists, bastards of
communist nomenclature, mostly Jewish, of course, use Eva Balogh, make a
fool of her. Use her as a cover for their evil deeds. For Pete's sake, don't
you think that I am a bit more intelligent than that.
>With the excep-
>tion of some of your [meaning my] economical views, which are indeed
conservative,
>your views on Hungarian scale are leftish/socialist,so your attraction
>to them is not without ground. I don't know what's this on USA scale,
>however.
Tamas, your problem is that you are so far to the right that
anything left to it seems "far left and socialist." Well, first of all, I
hate the very idea of socialism. I shudder if I think that the MSZMP (Mihaly
Bihari, I think) wants to introduce the word "social/socialist" into the new
constitution. Just shudder, and I am very much hoping that it will not
happen. When I tell my friends here that my Hungarian "friends" on the
Internet call me left socialists, they split their sides laughing. Hahaha,
you, a leftist? However, these Americans can't imagine how far right the
Hungarian right is. I simply consider myself democratic. I try very hard to
be tolerant. And most of all, I try to be realistic. It is not realistic to
act as if the last forty years didn't happen. It happened and we must accept
its baggage whether we like it or not. Personally I wish that we didn't have
a population which is still enamored with the Kadar regime. I, as a 56-er,
certainly have a much stronger dislike of that regime than those who lived
through it. For me it is difficult to understand such things as: how is it
possible that a newspaper bearing the name "Nepszabadsag," can possibly go
on, under the very same name, and be the most read paper in Hungary. I
personally find that hard to swallow. But I am a realist. I realize that the
Hungarians living in Hungary don't find that as stomach turning as I do.
Sixty percent of the population wishes the Kadar regime back! Hundred
thousand people followed the murderer Janos Kadar's to his grave! Do I like
it? No, of course not. But it would be unrealistic--as the Hungarian right
is unrealistic--to act as if those years and their influence can be ignored.
>>He also tried to discredit the whole revolution.
>>We "revolutionaries" make him sick, he said!
>Do you really want to say, that you are belonged to that communist
>political adventurer scum that I actually tried to discredit ?
I was not very different from the thousands of other university
students. We wanted to build something, perhaps idealistically, beautiful. A
better society. We wanted the Russians to leave and we wanted to live in our
own country according to our traditions.
As for the political adventurer scum--well, by the summer or fall of
1957 there were 300,000 political adventurers who joined the MSZMP!!! Maybe
one day we will know exactly who they were. The number of political
adventurers was obviously huge. So, don't just pick on some of the better
names. Some of the really big names, at least in my own field, were not
party members. They refused to join the party after 1956. But I knew a lot
of real scoundrels--very ordinary little doctors and teachers--who readily
joined the party by the mid-1960s for sake of their careers. Many, many. And
their names were not Kornai either.
And since you gave me a compliment about my thinking on economics,
let me return the compliment. Do you remember that you were afraid that with
Bokros's resignation, the austerity program might come to a screeching halt.
I expressed hope. Well, I think that you were right. The economic news from
Hungary is not very good. Medgyessy is lying very low, doing practically
nothing. Here and there he promises all sorts of things, only later to
correct his optimistic figures. I don't think that he is a strong enough man
to withstand the pressure. I am again worried about Hungary's economy.
Eva Balogh
|
+ - | Re: Christian symbols et al. (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
You say Rakosi designed a coat of arms for Hungary, but you don't remember
what it was? I'm dying to know. Can anyone describe it in detail?
Thanks
Burian
|
+ - | Re: Yes, '56 was a 'Szabadsagharc' (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
I have to agree that a good number of Hungarians seemed nostalgic for the
Kadar regime when I visited Hungary in '94. That's understandable
considering the very painful transition they're going through--tragic,
really, when you think of the old people's plight with their now worthless
pensions.
One man I met said there should have been a Marshall Plan after the fall
of communism, and I agree. From what I saw, with little economic
bolstering of the masses (and by that I mean simply the basics, like rent,
bread, milk), the seeds were there for an eventual return to fascism.
Did you read--I forget where--the American writer who was told by her BP
taxi driver that he missed the old days. When she asked why, he replied
that the communists took their time stealing your money, because they
thought they'd be in power forever. These days, the leaders know they've
only got a short time, so they steal it all immediately.
Burian
|
+ - | Re: Christian symbols et al. (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
At 08:57 AM 6/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
>You say Rakosi designed a coat of arms for Hungary, but you don't remember
>what it was? I'm dying to know. Can anyone describe it in detail?
>
>Thanks
>Burian
>
>
As far as I can recall, it was similar to the Soviet Union's coat of arms,
as well as several other Communist countries.
Instead of the Hammer and Sickle, in the center it had a crossed hammer and
wheat stalk, a red star on top, on the outside two sheafs of wheat forming a
circle and, on the bottom, a red-white-and-green ribbon, folding over itself
on both sides. There may have been some rays emanating down from the red
star, too.
It occupied the center position of the Hungarian National Flag, which is why
in '56 it was cut out from the flags, leaving a round hole...
I don't know if Rakosi himself designed it or not, but it was certainly
associated with his regime. After the revolution, Kadar did not dare bring
it back, coming up with a new one: a shield in the same shape as the
Kossuth Coat of arms, but with only the red, white and green colors to fill
it horizontally.
regards,
Charles Vamossy
|
+ - | Re: Christian symbols et al. (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
> Modern antisemitism, of course, doesn't have anything to do with the
>fact that Hungary has a coat of arms with a cross in it. Why on earth do you
>insist on coupling this two? It makes no sense.
I began my theme arguing that the glorification of past Christian atrocities
inspired antisemitism, and it seems that theme has twisted into the
coat-of-arms.
While I certainly do not expect the current coat-of-arms to be hung at the
gate of Auschwitz, I simply do not see it as a good reflection of a
religiously diverse society. We've both stated our opinions on this issue,
and I do recall your statements that you find little in the coat-of-arms
relating to Christianity, but rather a simple reflection of Hungary's
history. I mildly disagree, but accept your point.
I wonder, however, how the Christian population of Hungary would react to a
coat-of-arms with a star and crescent (muslim symbol). After all, that too
is part of our history.
Sven
Confederate Faerie Wonderboy
"This temple is just SCREAMING for drapes!!!"
-King David's boyfriend Jonathan's initial reaction to the bare-walled
Temple of Solomon.
|
+ - | Re: Christian symbols et al. (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
At 05:13 PM 6/10/96 -0400, Sven wrote:
>I wonder, however, how the Christian population of Hungary would react to a
>coat-of-arms with a star and crescent (muslim symbol). After all, that too
>is part of our history.
There are topics simply not worth discussing. This is one of them.
On the other hand, I agree with you that the Hungarian right's emphasis on
"Christian Hungary," has an antisemitic ring to it, as it did in 1919.
Eva Balogh
|
+ - | A new Marshall Plan and other economic matters (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
At 09:08 AM 6/10/96 -0400, Burian wrote:
>One man I met [in Hungary in 1994] said there should have been a Marshall
Plan after the fall
>of communism, and I agree.
Yes, it sounds good but I am not sure whether massive financial aid
(not loans) would have been a good answer, especially before the
privatization of state properties. I have the nagging feeling that most of
the money would have gone down the drain, postponing real economic change.
The money would have been spent on propping up hopeless industries (see
Diosgyor, or Pecs uranium mine) in order to keep social stability and
popularity of the government. And here I make no distinction between the
current socialist/liberal and the former, conservative/national governments.
As the matter of fact there are signs again that the economic changes so
necessary are being postponed again, simply because as a result of the
Bokros package (as the austerity program is called in Hungary) there was a
bit of success. They are sliding back again. Everybody agrees that about
10,000 hospital beds must be eliminated but the hospital lobby is
successfully resisting. And there are many similar signs that the economy
will be derailed again.
>From what I saw, with little economic
>bolstering of the masses (and by that I mean simply the basics, like rent,
>bread, milk), the seeds were there for an eventual return to fascism.
I am very much hoping that this is not going to happen although all
the postponed decisions and changes work against economic recovery. And the
closer we are getting to the elections the less is the will on the part of
the government to introduce unpopular measures.
>Did you read--I forget where--the American writer who was told by her BP
>taxi driver that he missed the old days. When she asked why, he replied
>that the communists took their time stealing your money, because they
>thought they'd be in power forever. These days, the leaders know they've
>only got a short time, so they steal it all immediately.
Unfortunately there is a great deal of truth in this. Most shady
economic deals done by officials of the ministries are basically hushed up.
The government talks about sacrifices but then you hear about luxury cars
(BMWs, Mercedeses) ordered to ministers. Each minister is entitled to two
cars: one official and one for the family. There is a lot of corruption,
reaching the highest government officials and the lowest police officer. And
it seems to me that the socialist party is not doing a great deal to
eliminate corruption. Oh, yes, Horn wanted to establish a special
investigative office (under his own authority) but that was simply a
political ploy: to show the population that he really cares, he really tries
to do his best but those wretched liberals don't let him. A less charitable
interpretation of Horn's insistence on such office is that through such
separate office, corruption cases involving members of his own party could
be hushed up more effectively. Whatever is the case, I am getting more and
more worried about Hungary's economic health.
Eva Balogh
|
+ - | Surname "Marczi" and "Bagonyi" (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
Does anyone know the frequency which these surnames are found in Hungary
or possibly some history about them? I am the last link! Thanks for your
help and kindness.
Please email me directly at .
Thanks, Anna
|
+ - | Re: Christian symbols et al. (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
At 10:49 AM 6/10/96 -0700, Charlie Vamossy wrote:
>At 08:57 AM 6/10/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>You say Rakosi designed a coat of arms for Hungary, but you don't remember
>>what it was? I'm dying to know. Can anyone describe it in detail?
>>
>>Thanks
>>Burian
>>
>>
>As far as I can recall, it was similar to the Soviet Union's coat of arms,
>as well as several other Communist countries.
The description, by the way, seems quite accurate to me. And this
coat of arms business reminds me of the "Song of the Republic," which was
supposed to replace the Hungarian national anthem. I don't know who composed
it but musically it was certainly not remarkable. The lyrics were not
remarkable either. I remember one line especially vividly. It read: S hullt
a po'r es hullt a gyereke (in English: And the peasant fell and so did his
child). The word "po'r" is an archaic/poetic version of "paraszt" [peasant],
but most of the kids in grade seven, including me, misheard the word and we
all sang: s hullt a por es hullt a gyereke. Por, without the acute on the
"o" means "dust."
Eva Balogh
|
+ - | Re: Rules of discussion (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
Gabor Farkas wrote:
> Kocsis Tam's wrote:
> "we
> stick to the the Hungarian rules in discussions[in the Forum], while the
> Anglosaxon
> way of arguments are favoured here [in the Hungary]".
>
> Could someone please explain the difference between the two rules?
There are no two rules that could be paired with ethnicity. The furthest
one can go is that Hungarians are more passionate in debates than Anglo-
Saxons, but that does not extend beyond fairness in decent Hungarian circles.
Mr Kocsis is self-servingly twisting this relatively slight distinction to
identify a Balkans-style no-set-rules, winner-takes-all type debating style
that some people prefer on FORUM with Hungarians at large.
This is patent falsehood. The FORUM has been taken over by a noisy group of
political extremists (Nazis and their fellow travellers) whose debating style
conforms with their unsavoury political views. They have been busy fouling
their own nest to the extent that the original group of debaters have all but
left. They are not representative of Hungarians, neither in their political
views, nor in their debating style: they are merely a bunch of rednecks who
are abusing freedom of speech in general and Jo'zsi Hollo'si's facilities
in particular.
George Antony
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+ - | Re: Nephadsereg (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
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> At 12:34 PM 6/5/96, Csaba Zoltani (ASHPC/CTD) wrote:
> >A good reference, from the Western perspective, on the training,
> >composition and doctrine of the Hungarian Army in the Warsaw Pact days
> >is Chapter 5 of
> >
> > Ivan Volgyes, The Political Reliability of the
> > Warsaw Pact Armies: the Southern Tier.
> > Duke Press Policy Studies
> > Durham, NC 1982
> >
> >In the light of this study, the explanation for the behavior of the Army
> >during the Szabadsagharc of '56 becomes quite clear.
Peter Hidas wrote:
> See also
>
> A magyar Nephadsereg es az 1956-os forradalom. 1956 EVKONYV (1992): 157-170.
> order from: Az 1956-os Intezet, 1074 Budapest, Dohany-u 74. II. em. Hungary
> Berki Mihaly. HADSEREG VEZETES NELKUL. Budapest: Magyar Media, 1989.
Would you gentlement be so kind as to at least hint at the salient points that
the authors are making, at least as far as they refer to issues discussed here.
Not all of us have the facility/time/interest to go after entire books that
are relevant to issues discussed here. Your help would be much appreciated
and it would also introduce factual points into discussions.
George Antony
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+ - | Re: A new Marshall Plan and other economic matters (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
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> At 09:08 AM 6/10/96 -0400, Burian wrote:
>
> >One man I met [in Hungary in 1994] said there should have been a Marshall
> Plan after the fall
> >of communism, and I agree.
Eva S. Balogh wrote:
> Yes, it sounds good but I am not sure whether massive financial aid
> (not loans) would have been a good answer, especially before the
> privatization of state properties. I have the nagging feeling that most of
> the money would have gone down the drain, postponing real economic change.
Back in '90 or so there had been American companies willing to modernize and
invest a lot, and they were rebuffed. It would have been the same type
of shot in the economic arm as a Marshall Plan, albeit on a smaller scale,
but a *beginning* just the same. Somehow Hungarians didn't realize how much
help they really needed; that they had no time to act cocky, saying that
they would do things in their own way, and in due time. I have heard the
same story from a British consultant for the Hungarian government. He
was disappointed beyond belief with this attitude.
And the
> closer we are getting to the elections the less is the will on the part of
> the government to introduce unpopular measures.
When will the elections be held in Hungary? There is every indication
that the discontent will produce similar election results in all former
Communist countries. While (once again) it looks like Yeltsin is an almost
certain winner, the force of the Communists cannot be discounted. The
sad part is that even though it looks like those were the "good old
days," there is no way the clock can be turned back. Western ideas,
including freedom of movement and speech, have already penetrated the
societies that were once behind the "Iron Curtain." Next week's Russian
votes will most likely foretell the story of Hungary as well.
> (BMWs, Mercedeses) ordered to ministers. Each minister is entitled to two
> cars: one official and one for the family. There is a lot of corruption,
Political corruption is not new. A "Marshall Plan" type of aid would
never do in Latin America, where all monies go for some window dressing
and the rest into the pocket of a select few. Organized crime is a
worldwide threat and growing. I don't know the answer how, given the
combined problems of poverty, drugs, and the hunger for power and money,
this international malady can be controlled.
I am a firm believer in educating people; enabling them to do things for
themselves. Giving them money is not the answer. Easy come, easy go.
The real question is: how to motivate them to perform well, to create a
better existence, when it looks so hopeless?
> more worried about Hungary's economic health.
Me, too. For decades, most Hungarians didn't have to work hard; there was
overemployment. This is extremely hard to unlearn. Social services
were provided for everyone. Their teeth were filled, their appendix taken
out. These were their rights - after all, they were citizens! Now, all
this is up to them to pay for, - from far less money than before, - or
they can rot. My heart goes out to them.
Ooops! How did I get this carried away?? OK: off the soapbox!
Martha
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+ - | Re: Christian symbols et al. (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
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Hi, Charlie -
Let's see if this works. I am still not receiving the messages from the
List, although I am listed as a subscriber. I think gremlins are at work,
preventing me from getting the List messages.
So, I am reading the Newsgroup right now through Netscape. I would also
like to express my thanks to Aniko, who has been faithfully sending me
the HIX Digests of the List.
Now, down to business. Charlie is absolutely correct in his description
of the coat of arms which was designed by the Rakosi regime. I have a
fair collection of Hungarian stamps up thru the mid-60's, and the Rakosi
coat of arms is depicted on a number of the stamps from about 1949-1954.
Then it disappears, and in a 1957 issue, the new coat of arms appears. It
was similar in general layout to the earlier one, but the sheaf of wheat
around the outside forms more of a circle rather than a horsehoe design.
It does feature the red star at the top with the rays emanating down,
however, but instead of a crossed hammer and a sheaf of wheat in the
center, it features the shield with the three horizontal bands - red on
top, white in the middle, and green on the bottom (piros-fehe'r-zo:ld),
just like the flag.
I guess you could say, like Jim Doepp, that I've been lurking (or like
Eva Balogh and the Forum! :-)))
Yours,
Johanne
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail -
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+ - | Groupthink, LSD, Oil of Ole, and other sundry things. (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
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At 07:16 AM 6/10/96 -0700, Eva Balogh, responding to my comments about
groupthink, wrote:
> One cannot make a blanket statement like this. Just the other day
>one could read the obituary of Timothy Leary, the promoter of LSD. He was
>different all right, he didn't "groupthink." He just swallowed enough LSD to
>fry his brains out. And he urged other young people to do the same. And
>thousands followed him. At age of 75, judging from his picture, he looked as
>if he were 95. Not all "difference" is good or acceptable.
Now you're talking about things you know knothing about. How many hits of
acid have you done, Eva? None, I bet. But you feel perfectly alright about
discussing its effects. LSD does not fry brains and it does not age people.
It's not like the reverse chemical compound of Oil of Ole! It is simply an
hallucinogen. But why confuse you with facts when you've already made up
your mind. I'm reminded about the thousands of Christians who demonstrated
against the film, "The Last Temptation of Christ". None of them saw the
film. But they were told, and they belived, that the movie was 'bad'.
Sometimes I suspect that your economic theories are as equally well footed.
Just today, in a post about a new Marshall plan you say that you are
"getting more and more worried about Hungary's economic health". Now why
would that be? Hungary is part of the larger, free market, capitalist,
corporatist world. Everything is functioning normally according to market
forces. There are winners and there are losers. And I bet you thought
Hungary would be a winner, eh? But why? There were no real economic
indicators to show that.
Joe Szalai
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+ - | That sneaky Kadarist elite in Hungary and the West (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
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Ferenc Novak wrote:
> Anyway, I don't think anyone ought to be upset because some people don't like
> the term "szabadsagharc". For example, it would be folly to expect communists
> or their sympathizers to do so. There is another group, the one-time liberal
> communists as well as non-communists who, in exchange for certain privileges,
> agreed to serve, or at least not to oppose, the Kadar-type "soft
> dictatorship".
This very neatly includes most Hungarians, with the exception of those who
did oppose the Kadar regime with samizdat publications, etc.
> A thin layer of society thus managed to live quite well,
Indeed, especially the Party apparatchiks and their yesmen who were allowed
into positions of social privilege such as Csurka, Antall and Boross.
> even travel abroad
Actually, travel abroad was not restricted to the wealthy. Hungarians have
been allowed to travel even to Western countries since the 1960s and did so
with a vengeance, on next to no money.
> and send their children to be educated in the West.
Well, not even high-ranking Party officials had extensive foreign-currency
accounts necessary for the Western education of non-residents. The only
people who had such accounts were those who sold something in the West
(artists, scientists with royalties from Western sales of their works) or
foreign-trade officials who put their kick-backs into Western accounts.
> Unfortunately, until 1989 only such loyal types and their offspring were
> allowed to come to the West,
"allowed" by whom ? You are hopelessly misinformed about the consolidated
Kadarism. As I already pointed it out, the regime mostly allowed people to
travel: denial of exit permits was the exception, not the rule.
> and today they comprise the majority of young
> educated Hungarians abroad.
Really ? Please do present some statistics to prove this point, least some
think that you are merely waffling.
> Now that spoiled generation is serving as
> apologists for the defunct regime, if not openly, then by trying to discredit
> those who fought against the communist oppression. Their dishonesty is the
> lasting legacy of the corrupting influence of the Kadar years. We might as
> well give up on this group and hope that now that no one in Hungary needs a
> party secretary's approval to be admitted to college and to travel abroad,
> another generation will come that will not have theideological baggage of
> some of the current crop and is willing to see things as they really were.
You sound like an embittered man, unable to accept that there was life under
Kadar: the majority of the population did not die on the barricades in 1956
and made its peace with the regime for a modest material living standard and
some civil rights that were not available in most other Communist countries.
Most (not all, but most) people who wanted to leave could do it with the
relative dignity of a pretence trip to Vienna.
Moreover, some people actually managed to do well due to their intellect.
To be sure, the latter was only available for a brilliant minority without
joining the Party or becoming its lackey. But to deny that there were such
people is merely sour grapes on your part.
George Antony
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+ - | Re: Rotten eggs, Groupthink, LSD, Oil of Ole, (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
You wrote:
>
>Now you're talking about things you know knothing about. How many
hits of
>acid have you done, Eva? None, I bet. But you feel perfectly alright
about
>discussing its effects.
> But why confuse you with facts when you've already made up
>your mind. I'm reminded about the thousands of Christians who
demonstrated
>against the film, "The Last Temptation of Christ". None of them saw
the
>film. But they were told, and they belived, that the movie was 'bad'.
>Sometimes I suspect that your economic theories are as equally well
footed.
>Joe Szalai
>
I am reminded of the story of Pal Gyulai, well known writer, poet and
literary critic, and a fellow, although not contemporary, resident of
my favorite place on earth, Leanyfalu.
It seems that a hapless struggling author whose work was panned by the
famous critic, wrote a letter to one of the papers, saying that if Mr.
Gyulai knows so much about what a great novel should be, how come he
never wrote one? Gyulai replied the next day. "Just because I know
immediately a rotten egg doesn't mean I can lay one," he said.
Regards,
Charlie Vamossy
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+ - | Re: Groupthink, LSD, Oil of Ole, and other sundry thing (mind) |
VÁLASZ |
Feladó: (cikkei)
|
On Mon, 10 Jun 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
> At 07:16 AM 6/10/96 -0700, Eva Balogh, responding to my comments about
> groupthink, wrote:
>
> > One cannot make a blanket statement like this. Just the other day
> >one could read the obituary of Timothy Leary, the promoter of LSD. He was
> >different all right, he didn't "groupthink." He just swallowed enough LSD to
> >fry his brains out. And he urged other young people to do the same. And
> >thousands followed him. At age of 75, judging from his picture, he looked as
> >if he were 95. Not all "difference" is good or acceptable.
>
> Now you're talking about things you know knothing about. How many hits of
> acid have you done, Eva? None, I bet. But you feel perfectly alright about
> discussing its effects. LSD does not fry brains and it does not age people.
> It's not like the reverse chemical compound of Oil of Ole! It is simply an
> hallucinogen.
Well, Joe, this IS a switch! You are chewing Eva out for her
inexperience in experimenting with - or using drugs. A "simple hallucinogen"
~~~~~~
- no less. I am not sure that it is so great to have all that knowledge;
particularly from personal experience!
Can you please forgive Eva for this lack of expertise and chalk it up
among her other shortcomings? In her posting she had inadequately tried
to convey a message about the dangers of doing drugs, with express
examples of how a promising, bright professor went off the deep end (am I
doing any better, Joe?) with the use of LSD.
I, for one, cannot see the benefits of ANY substance that would give me a
false - and temporary ! - feeling of well-being. It was one thing that
Leary took risks himself. Advocating the use of LSD was an entirely
different matter. He was single-handedly responsible for the lives of
tens of thousands, and perhaps much more - now already for the third
generation - of Americans and Canadians; even influencing youth worldwide.
Martha
BTW: it is Oil of Olay. (And no; I do not use it.)
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