On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:

<SNIP>
> Thanksgiving may be a non-sectarian holiday but it's still a religious day.
> Mother Nature does not require such days.  I live in rural Ontario and I'm
> surranded by hundreds of thousands of acres of prime agricultural land.  The
> Christian farmers (and yes, they are Christian!) around here are still
> subduing the land with tons of chemicals.  And once a year, after raping and
> killing the soil, they give thanks to god for the bounty.  Such hypocrisy!!!

Well for once I have to agree with Joe. Thanksgiving is a religius
holiday (a Christian one at that) and those farmers in Ontario and
elsewhere are not obeyong the law of nature and what God has prescibed
about land use.  It just so happens that the topsoil in tidwest has
eroded significantly since the last dustbowl.  Soon we are all going to
pay for this "raping & killing the soil" with no food.  Greed wins again!
(So does not being religious -- but only for a little while longer!)

BTW -- ithe post  about the original thanksgiving that I sent in, please
note that those Christians KNEW that they were the COVENANT people! (Ala
an older post on the true nature of ISRAEL (biblical).

Peter Soltesz

Please do have a good thanksgiving and watch out for those turkeys on the
road too!

At 03:24 AM 11/23/96 GMT, Sam Stowe wrote:

<snip>
>I don't think you're a commie. I just think you're a doctrinaire left-wing
>wienie who can't think out of the box. Nineteen sixty-eight is over with,
>Joe. Let it go. But you do have a good heart and that counts for a hell of
>a lot with me.

Tsk!  tsk!  You're the wienie, big guy.  If you knew anything about '68
you'd know that it was anything but doctrinaire.  I guess they didn't teach
you in high school that the word "alternative" was invented in the '60s.
Why, even Prague happened in '68.  All this sounds very "doctrinaire" to
you, don't it?
>>So, are you all ready for a good debate?  Can you let go of your
>ideologies?
>
>You're the one who flails around the minute he has to let go of
>ideologies. Learn to dog paddle for yourself before you try to teach me
>how to back stroke.

I'm sure you're pretty good at stroking already, Sam, so all I'll have to do
is show you the weakness of your ideology.

Joe Szalai

Here is one other thing that HU needs to eliminate!

Getting tickets and PAYING the fines ON-THE-SPOT!

I wonder how many millions of HUF wind up in the policemen's pockets?
Are the fines larger the "better" car you have -- you betcha!

Let's start fixing things in HU one thing at a time. This might give the
residents a slight improvement on their perspective of life.

Peter Soltesz

In article >,
 says...
>
>In a message dated 96-11-25 22:30:21 EST, you write:
>
>> >Thanksgiving is the only non-sectarian holiday.  2 years ago, one of
>>  the reform rabbis in Toronto, Jordan Pearlson, had an editorial in
the
>>  Toronto Star.  He encouraged everybody to celebrate Thanksgiving, to
>>  participate in this beatiful Canadian (ours was in October) holiday.
 And
>>  Eva, EVERYBODY has something to be thankful of, even if we have
temporary
>>  hardships or great difficulties.  Youd don't have to be religious.
You
>>  can give thanks to Mother Nature, or to your own god you created for
>>  yourself.
>>
>>  Agnes
>>
>>
>Agnes, you are my woman (as in "you'r my man..) I like what you have
written!
>
>I got ticked off of the Rev.Soltesz and creepy crawly Szekely after
>reading their "articles" about Thanksgiving. Real Holy men....
>....I can't stand it when mere mortals stand on a hill and pontificate.
>
>Regards,
>Marina

Thanks, Marina.

Agnes

In article
>,
 says...
>
>
>The First Thanksgiving Proclamation (June 20, 1676)
>
>On June 20, 1676, the governing council of Charlestown,
>Massachusetts, held a meeting to determine how best to express
>thanks for the good fortune that had seen their community
>securely established. By unamimous vote they instructed
>Edward Rawson, the clerk, to proclaim June 29 as a day of
>thanksgiving, our first. That proclamation is reproduced here
>in the same language and spelling as the original.
>
>------------------------------------
><end>

So, then why is the US celebrating it in November?  Quite a few things
changed in the past 300 years, eh?  Among other, the population
inhabiting the continent.

Agnes

In article >,
 says...
>
>Marina:
>>
>> I got ticked off of the Rev.Soltesz and creepy crawly Szekely after
>> reading their "articles" about Thanksgiving. Real Holy men....
>> ....I can't stand it when mere mortals stand on a hill and
pontificate.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Marina
>>
>You sound really sick Madame. I feel sorry for you.
>Still I wish you happy Thanksgiving so that you may
>experience the real meaning of this very Christian
>holiday.
>
>I guess, anyway, that your and your feller's real
>problem is that you have to live in a country of
>Christian values. Just read the President's Victory
>Speech over again. You may get a picture of the real
>America afterall. The America of strong Christian
>values, which fact must be addressed even by the
>President if he is willing to hold his office.
>
>I also would like to note that I used sign my letters
>and you would be overly foolish (or malicious??) to
>interchange my postings with that of Mr "iszekely@..."
>whatever, about whom I have no idea who he is.
>
>So give yourself a break and enjoy your turkey
>without malice.
>                                           Sz. Zoli

Zolika, God is not Christian.  God is universal.  When are you getting
this through your thick head?  That's why Thanksgiving should be
everybody's holiday.  There are millions of non-christians living in
North America.  Why should they not celebrate Thanksgiving?

Agnes

>
> Just think, Agnes -- Eva D. and her family will bow their heads and offer
> up a prayer to Marx before carving the turkey. I would pay admission to
> watch that particular Thanksgiving celebration.
> Sam Stowe
>


If I would say thanks to anybody, it would be the thousands of
generation of people who cooperated to make my life
possible.  Your note is malicious as ever. How would
you know what my family is upto anyway?
If you have nothing of value - or at least faintly amusing -
to say, shut up. As yet again you are starting (continuing)
with your personal abuse as opposed to a reasoned argument,
I won't bother reading your post - again.

 ac.uk

At 07:27 PM 11/26/96 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:

<snip>
>Well for once I have to agree with Joe. Thanksgiving is a religius
>holiday (a Christian one at that) and those farmers in Ontario and
>elsewhere are not obeyong the law of nature and what God has prescibed
>about land use.

I just love it when the bible thumpers don't read what they're thumping.  Of
course, I may be wrong, but I always believed that the bible instructed the
god worshipers to subdue and conquer the land.  And now that that
subjugation is turning out to be disastrous, Peter says the farmers aren't
obeying god.  But they are, Peter, they are!  That's the problem.

Joe Szalai

On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, aheringer wrote:
> So, then why is the US celebrating it in November?  Quite a few things
> changed in the past 300 years, eh?  Among other, the population
> inhabiting the continent.
> Agnes
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
To ALL here is the answer and here is what some of our great ancestors
have stated about Thanksgiving including George Washington, Abraham Lincoln.

PLEASE Read these ORIGINAL documents - Thank you!
Regards,
Peter Soltesz
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
In many parts of the world a day is set side to give thanks. The
     date and customs may very from country to country but the desire to
     take time to reflect on life/s blessings remains the same. In the
     United States, Thanksgiving is celebrated on the fourth Thursday in
     November. It is a time for family, food, and football, and marks
     the unofficial beginning to the winter holiday season.

IN The Name of God, Amen. We, whose names are underwritten, the Loyal
   Subjects of our dread Sovereign Lord King James, by the Grace of God,
   of Great Britain, France, and Ireland, King, Defender of the Faith,
   &c. Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the
   Christian Faith, and the Honor of our King and Country, a Voyage to
   plant the first colony in the northern Parts of Virginia; Do by these
   Presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one
   another, covenant and combine ourselves together into a civil Body
   Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of
   the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof do enact, constitute, and
   frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions, and
Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and
   convenient for the general Good of the Colony; unto which we promise
   all due Submission and Obedience. In WITNESS whereof we have hereunto
   subscribed our names at Cape Cod the eleventh of November, in the
   Reign of our Sovereign Lord King James of England, France, and
   Ireland, the eighteenth and of Scotland, the fifty-fourth.
 Anno Domini, 1620
____________________________________________________________

   The above interpretation  1995 on the HTML-version by Dep.          ,
   Alfa-Informatica University of Groningen. Copying for non-commercial
   purposes allowed, if proper citation is given

> ============================================================
STATE OF NEW-HAMPSHIRE.
   IN COMMITTEE of SAFETY,
   EXETER, November 1, 1782.

   ORDERED,
   THAT the following Proclamation for a general THANKSGIVING on the
   twenty-eighth day of November [instant?], received from the honorable
   Continental Congress, be forthwith printed, and sent to the several
   worshipping Assemblies in this State, to whom it is recommended
   religiously to observe said day, and to abstain from all servile
   labour thereon.
   M. WEARE, President.

     By the United States in Congress assembled.

     PROCLAMATION.

     IT being the indispensable duty of all Nations, not only to offer
     up their supplications to ALMIGHTY GOD, the giver of all good, for
     his gracious assistance in a time of distress, but also in a solemn
     and public manner to give him praise for his goodness in general,
     and especially for great and signal interpositions of his
     providence in their behalf: Therefore the United States in Congress
     assembled, taking into their consideration the many instances of
     divine goodness to these States, in the course of the important
     conflict in which they have been so long engaged; the present happy
     and promising state of public affairs; and the events of the war,
     in the course of the year now drawing to a close; particularly the
     harmony of the public Councils, which is so necessary to the
     success of the public cause; the perfect union and good
     understanding which has hitherto subsisted between them and their
     Allies, notwithstanding the artful and unwearied attempts of the
     common enemy to divide them; the success of the arms of the United
     States, and those of their Allies, and the acknowledgment of their
     independence by another European power, whose friendship and
     commerce must be of great and lasting advantage to these
     States:----- Do hereby recommend to the inhabitants of these States
     in general, to observe, and request the several States to interpose
     their authority in appointing and commanding the observation of
     THURSDAY the twenty-eight day of NOVEMBER next, as a day of solemn
     THANKSGIVING to GOD for all his mercies: and they do further
     recommend to all ranks, to testify to their gratitude to GOD for
     his goodness, by a cheerful obedience of his laws, and by
     promoting, each in his station, and by his influence, the practice
     of true and undefiled religion, which is the great foundation of
     public prosperity and national happiness.

     Done in Congress, at Philadelphia, the eleventh day of October, in
     the year of ourLORDone thousand seven hundred and eighty-two, and
     of our Sovereignty and Independence, the seventh.
     JOHN HANSON, President.
     Charles Thomson, Secretary.

     PRINTED AT EXETER.
> =====================================================

George Washington/s  1789  Thanksgiving Proclamation
                    ___________________________________

   Whereas it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of
   Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and
   humbly to implore His protection and favor; and Whereas both Houses of
   Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to
   the people of the United States a day of public thanksgiving and
   prayer, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many
   and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an
   opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their
   safety and happiness:"

   Now, therefore, I do recommend and assign Thursday, the 26th day of
   November next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the
   service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author
   of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then
   all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His
   kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to
   their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the
   favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and
   conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility,
   union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed; for the peaceable and
   rational manner in which we have been enable to establish
   constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and
   particularly the national one now lately instituted/ for the civil and
   religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of
   acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge; and, in general, for all the
   great and various favors which He has been pleased to confer upon us.

   And also that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers
   and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech
   Him to pardon our national and other transgressions; to enable us all,
   whether in public or private stations, to perform our several and
   relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National
   Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a
   Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and
   faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns
   and nations (especially such as have show kindness to us), and to
   bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the
   knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase
   of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind
   such a degree of temporal prosperity as He alone knows to be best.

   Given under my hand, at the city of New York, the 3d dy of October,
   A.D. 1789.

   (signed) G. Washington
________________________________________________________
   From Spark/s Washington, Vol. XII, p. 119
> ==============================================================

Abraham Lincoln/s 1863 Thanksgiving Proclamation
______________________________________________________________

   It is the duty of nations as well as of men to own their dependence
   upon the overruling power of God; to confess their sins and
   transgressions in humble sorrow, yet with assured hope that genuine
   repentance will lead to mercy and pardon; and to recognize the sublime
   truth, announced in the Holy Scriptures and proven by all history,
   that those nations are blessed whose God is the Lord.

   We know that by His divine law, nations, like individuals, are
   subjected to punishments and chastisements in this world. May we not
   justly fear that the awful calamity of civil war which now desolates
   the land may be a punishment inflicted upon us for our presumptuous
   sins, to the needful end of our national reformation as a whole people?

   We have been the recipients of the choisest bounties of heaven; we
   have been preserved these many years in peace and prosperity; we have
   grown in numbers, wealth and power as no other nation has ever grown.

   But we have forgotten God. We have forgotten the gracious hand which
   preserved us in peace and multiplied and enriched and strengthened us,
   and we have vainly imagined, in the deceitfulness of our hearts, that
   all these blessings were produced by some superior wisdom and virtue
   of our own. Intoxicated with unbroken success, we have become too
   self-sufficient to feel the necessity of redeeming and preserving
   grace, too proud to pray to the God that made us.

   It has seemed to me fit and proper that God should be solemnly,
   reverently and gratefully acknowledged, as with one heart and one
   voice, by the whole American people. I do therefore invite my fellow
   citizens in every part of the the United States, and also those who
   are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart
   and observe the last Thursday of November as a day of Thanksgiving and
   praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the heavens.

   (signed) A. Lincoln
   October 3, 1863
> ============================================================

<end>

On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
> <snip>
> .  And now that that
> subjugation is turning out to be disastrous, Peter says the farmers aren't
> obeying god.  But they are, Peter, they are!  That's the problem.
>
> Joe Szalai
>
Well Joe that is where you are wrong in your interpretation -- it may
behoove you to actually read the Bible. Peter

Hi, I need help to understand off-the-shelf software licensing. Suppose 4
years back you bought X software which happens to be an authoring tool.
You checked the licensing agreement and created X++ software using X
software.

Today, the software company has decided to change their licensing
agreement. All of a sudden you find that your investment of software,
hardware, time and aspirations all vanish overnight so to speak because
they have made your X++ software illegal.

Question: Can a software company selling a off-the-shelf development tool
change its licensing agreement so drastically? If Microsoft and Borland
were to announce that they have both decided to change their licensing
agreement so that the EXE and DLL you created with C/C++ will require you
to pay them a royalty fee if you want to distribute them; will you
accept? Is this kind of action legally enforceable.

Thank you for your reply. Please do not send your reply via private
e-mail. The software X in question is Asymetrix ToolBook. However, they
have an exception which is Express Author from IAT. Asymetrix claimed
that Express Author is legal because IAT is their business partner cum
authorized training centre. Can Asymetrix use this excuse to decide
whether a software is legal while another is illegal. Asymetrix's general
counsel is Steven Esau >.

What is the big deal about who you are thankful to for Thanksgiving?  Are only
people who throw their beliefs on some god able to be thankful?

Indians also were an important element in the first Thanksgiving, and I do not
think many of them were Christians. The pilgrims actually seemed to leech off
of the Indians and wound up giving their thanks to their god. (Later their
god had to save them from the heathen Red Man when they where no longer satis-
fied with what they already had ....) (But that's another topic, not for
Hungary...)

I like Thanksgiving and I do not believe in god. It is possible simply to be
thankful/appreciative for your life and circumstances. I am more pagan than
Christian, and I find it so easy to thank the loving, hard-working people who
made my good life possible. Why is that so uncomfortable? If there were a god,
I would think It would enjoy to see goodness and good will... and not be on
some kind of eternal ego-trip where we all have to cheer It on.

If Christians can take pagan holidays such as Saturnalia (and Celtic tree
worship) and Pagan Spring rites and turn them into a sacred X'mas and Easter,
why can't non-believers be allowed to show thanks for a good life without being
berated?

No, a god does not have to be in this holiday. Are goodness and sincere thanks
less good w/o a god attached to it??  Please, do not act offended for god...
I'm sure if there were a god It'd either understand or be mature about it. I'm
sure that a knowing, loving god would be more secure then to be offended over
this and that.... or else It's really be tired.

Happy Holidays,
Mark

Karen Dunn Skinner:

>I think what they are trying to imply is that the contract was
>fraudulent.  Based on your information, it appears there was indeed a
>contract between two parties which purported to pay a fee in return for
>services rendered.  However, if both parties knew at the beginning that
>the contract was simply a piece of paper intended to cover some form of
>illicit payment, then it could indeed be void.  Section 200 of the
>Hungarian Civil Code states that contracts that violate a legal rule
>(i.e. a law or decree) are null and void, as are contracts that is
>concluded by evading a legal rule.

        I assume that the emphasis here is on "if both parties knew" that
the contract was just a piece of paper intending to cover some form of
illicit payment.

>Furthermore, a contract is null and
>void if it violates good morals (this is a civil law concept not always
>expressed in common law jurisdictions such as the US).

        Yes, this is a very strange concept for me because I have never
encountered it in the United States. Next weekend I will have the
opportunity to discuss this matter with a friend who is a corporate lawyer
in New York. But in the meantime there is an interesting article in HVG--in
the "Velemenyek" [Op-Ed page] section by Barnabas Lenkovics, an associate
professor of law at ELTE. The gist of his article is exactly this question
of good morals (erkolcsosseg) versus law (jog). At the beginning of his
article Lenkovics reminds his readers that the prime minister himself had
contrasted "morality" and "legality" at the time of Lajos Bokros's
resignation. (You may recall that Lajos Bokros received 16 million forints
as compensation which, according to Horn, may not have been moral but it was
legal.) Lenkovics then continues that the codifiers of legal codes tried to
write law in such a way that they would not sanction immorality. Examples,
the Code Civil and the Burgerliches Gesetzbuch on which the Hungarian
Polgari torvenykonyv is based. All three codes announce that "a polgari
jogok gyakorlasa es a kotelezettsegek teljesitese soran a felek a
johiszemuseg es a tisztesseg kovetelmenyeinek megfeleloen ... kotelesek
eljarni." Or later, "semmis a szerzodes, ... ha nyilvanvaloan a jo erkolcsbe
utkozik" which is basically the same what Karen quoted from section 227(2)
of the Hungarian Civil Code.

>Unfortunately, there are some pretty big gaps in the Hungarian legal
>framework.  They are slowly being filled.  However, the biggest problem
>is not the existence of these gaps but the enforcement of the law that
>does exist.  As I noted above, there are provisions on the "purity of
>public life", as the Criminal Code calls it, that should permit
>prosecution if there is cause.  Certainly, if what you allege is true,
>official persons were abusing their authority in violation of section
>225 of the Criminal Code.  It becomes a question not just of proof, but,
>above all, the guts of the public prosecutor to investigate and then
>prosecute senior members of government.  Such a course of action will
>require significant support from the public and from the government.
>Whether government support will be forthcoming remains to be seen.

        I fully agree with you about the enforcement of the law or rather
its lack of but I'm afraid that if there is no rapid and radical change in
this respect, Hungary will never become a "joga'llam," a word people use so
frequently nowadays.

>Of course, the biggest problem right now is adequate and accurate
>information.  As I see it, the media has jumped on this, but isn't able
>to provide any real information.  It looks like one big rumour-mill to
>me.

        Yes, and one more thing. The journalists are no versed in the law as
they are not versed in economics either. Therefore, you will find the most
ridiculous, most hairbrained articles which are outright misleading. Sorry,
that I am going back to this hobby horse of mine but I find the ideal of
Hungarian journalism unacceptable. They are supposed to have pretensions of
literary achievements instead of solid knowledge about matters they are
supposed to be writing about.

>In case you are wondering why someone with a name like Skinner knows
>anything about Hungarian law:  I am a Canadian attorney currently
>researching a PhD thesis on criminal and administrative regulation of
>business organisations in Central and Eastern Europe, with a focus on
>Hungary.  Prior to this, I worked as an attorney with a large Canadian
>law firm in Budapest for two years.

        Great! I hope you had a reasonable time in Budapest.

        Greetings, Eva Balogh

You know, maybe it is just me, but for once couldn't the egos and
personalities be checked once and let some messages fly by without a
response?

Really, thannk whatever deity you please, or no deity and thank those hard
working people who may have helped gurantee the standard of living you may
have and realize how fragile that position is.

Best wishes to all, and safe travel to those in the air or one th road
this weekend.

Darren Purcell
Department of Geography
Florida State University

>On Tue, 26 Nov 1996, Marina E. Pflieger wrote:
>
><<SNIP>>
>> Agnes, you are my woman (as in "you'r my man..) I like what you have written
!
>>
>> I got ticked off of the Rev.Soltesz and creepy crawly Szekely after
>> reading their "articles" about Thanksgiving. Real Holy men....
>> ....I can't stand it when mere mortals stand on a hill and pontificate.
>
>
>We are NOT pontificating at all. We are stating actual FACTS! If you
>cannot understand that in your drunken state then sober up! Smell the
>flowers and figure out  that THANKGIVING is a thanks to GOD!
>
>Just because you are a Heathen god less pagan please do not take the
>original meaning away and twist it to your benefit.
>
 Peter:what ever and who ever you are you realy do not sound the good
Christian you desire to paint yourself.Give thanks to whom ever you feel
like and lieve the rest alone,otherwise you realy won't enjoy this day.
Enjoy:Andy K.
>

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>Subject:       Re: HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
>From:  Zoltan Szekely >
>Date:  Tue, 26 Nov 1996 15:56:47 -0500
>
>I continue the survey of the President's Victory Speech
>which was given on the night of the last election. I
>picked up the statements of the President which deal with
>the role of God Almighty in the American history, and the
>President's own personal fate. I do it in order to make it
>clear, that the American Christianity is so deeply rooted
>in the way people think in this country that even the
>President has to address publicly the role the Almighty
>God plays in America.

The President doesn't appear to address publicly the role God Almighty
plays in America in anything you've posted so far. He does appear to dip
into the well of Southern Baptist piety as a rhetorical embellishment and
a figurative nod to American civil religion.

>
>And also, I do it in order to wish you all happy
>Thanksgiving, and to offer my gift of packing the
>President's God-related ideas on this specific occasion
>as food for your own thought.

No, you do it to hear your own babbling voice droning on in some other
medium than the spoken word. Readers with any interest in the intersection
between religion and government in late 20th Century America have a whole
feast of thought-provoking authors to choose from to learn more on the
subject -- Richard John Neuhaus, Stephen Carter, Robert Bellah, James
Davison Hunter and more. Zoltan Szekely's crypto-Falangist maunderings
don't even make the list.

>
>Cheer up, the life is short.
>                                                  Sz. Zoli

The thought that yours indeed may be so does bring a smile to my lips.
Sorry, it's an involuntary muscular reaction.

>
>**********************************************************
>
>President William Jefferson Clinton is speaking:
>(Victory Speech on election night)
>Part 2
>
>                  On a purely personal note, I must thank my pastor, Rex
>                  Horn, who prayed with me before I came out here
>                  tonight, and all the ministers and people of God who
>                  prayed for me and with me over these last four years.
>
>Are you surprised? You should not! Bill Clinton prayed
>to God for the success. He asked the Almighty to help
>him in his ways. He did not only prayed to God but he
>also had his pastor, Mr Horn pray for him. And who are
>these misterious 'people of God'? Undoubtedly, the
>people of God are the Christians of America, many of
>whom prayed for the President.

Undoubtedly, the people of God are the ones who struggle to keep the great
commandments: love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your
soul and with all your mind; and, love your neighbor as yourself.
Obviously, the set of human beings who do these two things cuts across all
kinds of religious, economic and social boundaries. Christians don't have
the franchise on being the people of God. In fact, if you assume you are
one, you most likely aren't.

>
>
>                  There were a few especially, and they know who they
>                  are, who came to the White House time after time, in
>                  good times and bad. When the times were bad, they
>                  reminded me that God gave Saint Paul a thorn in his
>                  flesh so he would not become exalted in his own eyes.
>
>The President had some bad times, as he admits. And what
>happened to him in his bad times? Well, 'people of God'
>came to him reminding him of the thorn in the flesh. Does
>the President of the United States have thorn in his
>flesh? He may have some! And we all know this. He was
>unfaithful to his wife. He may have been unfaithful to
>his own electorate and to God also. But lo, he is coming
>back in lowliness! He is not exalted in his own eyes. He
>knows his thorns, as God knows them also.

He knows that his poll ratings are good enough that he can now resume
dating. Clinton, flawed vessel that he is, at least has enough sense not
to listen to a bunch of hate-filled religious bigots. I would not,
however, let that discourage you from trying to climb over the White House
fence in full view of a couple of burly Marine guards.

>
>
>                  When the times were good, they reminded me that
>                  humility is always in order in the presidency, for in
>                  this life we see through a glass darkly and we cannot
>                  know the whole truth of our circumstances or the
>                  motives of those who oppose us.
>
>Humility. The President needed this thing so badly. And
>he was rewarded. He got the gift of humility so that he
>could see through the dark glass. This kind of ability
>of looking through the dark glass is so essential for
>the presidency, and Clinton realized that humility is
>the gift of God for him so that he may be able to
>acquire this ability. As you see, even the small things
>are coming from God for the President, as he very
>clearly admits here.

It's a wonder you don't choke on your own hypocrisy. If Clinton regularly
looks through dark glasses, he should forthwith purchase a guide dog and a
white cane and strike up a friendship with Ray Charles. I just want the
poor SOB to exercise some good judgment in office. That would require
wisdom, foresight, critical thinking and myriad other qualities besides
humility, none of which you know enough about first-hand to warrant
running your blowhole nonstop.

>
>
>                  I thank them all for
>                  bringing me closer to God and to the eternal wisdom
>                  without which a president cannot serve.
>
>Closer to God? What does it mean? The President explained
>what it means for him. But what does it mean to you? Are
>you close to God? Do you share in the 'eternal wisdom' he
>is talking about? Where is this eternal wisdom coming
>from? And why is it so important for the President, as
>he claims, that he could not serve without it? Is it also
>important to you? Do you belong to the overwhelming
>majority in this country for whom the wisdom of God is
>also important? If not, do you want to belong to this
>majority? Are you going to accept that the people of God,
>as the President called them, are not extreme, are not
>stupid uneducated folks, but actually are enlightened by
>God's eternal wisdom? Look, the President is one of them.
>He tries to get closer to this wisdom. Why would not you?


The self-designated "people of God" like you are a plague on this nation
and an embarrassment to organized religion. Your pride is so swollen that
it crowds out any tangible relationship you might have enjoyed with God in
the first place. He is displaced from a central place in your lives in
favor of the image of yourselves as His chosen representatives on earth.
This is idolatry, pure and simple. It renders you unable to follow the two
great commandments mentioned above. It tempts you into considering
yourselves gods compared to your fellow human beings and curdling the
sympathy and love you ought to hold for them into un-Christian contempt.
Humility, which you manifestly do not possess in even a small amount,
would be an excellent corrective for your unwarranted pride in your own
spiritual state.
Sam Stowe

P.S. -- Happy Thanksgiving, turkey!



"And the number one sign that
you're attending a redneck
wedding? Rehearsal dinner
held at Hooters!"
-- The John Boy and
Billy Big Show

>On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
>> <snip>
>> .  And now that that
>> subjugation is turning out to be disastrous, Peter says the farmers aren't
>> obeying god.  But they are, Peter, they are!  That's the problem.
>>
>> Joe Szalai
>>
>Well Joe that is where you are wrong in your interpretation -- it may
>behoove you to actually read the Bible. Peter

Your debate on this subject reminds me the saying 'vak vezet vilagtalant'.
Do you know any chapter in the Bible (or in any Holy Book as a matter of fact)
which says anything about chemicals you can use on your farm. Everything else
 is just speculation.

By the way, I am getting to be fed up with this all purparle about Thanksgiving
.
It's like a stupid talk-show on the TV. Guys, if I want to see one I can turn o
n
the TV you don't have to provide it.

Happy Thanksgiving to everyone with or without God.

J.Zs

Could us non-USAians be spared of further elaborations of
cultural and political issues not relevant anywhere else
but the US.

This is still a mailing list for Hungarian issues.  I do
not send syrupy messages on Australia day, you guys over-
eager to show how good 'merkins you became should keep the
manifestations of that to yourself.

George Antony

At 09:23 AM 11/27/96 -0500, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>On Wed, 27 Nov 1996, Joe Szalai wrote:
>> <snip>
>> .  And now that that
>> subjugation is turning out to be disastrous, Peter says the farmers aren't
>> obeying god.  But they are, Peter, they are!  That's the problem.
>>
>> Joe Szalai
>>
>Well Joe that is where you are wrong in your interpretation -- it may
>behoove you to actually read the Bible. Peter

And I think you've been "behooved" in the rear too often.

I hate doing this, but anyways...

In the book of Genesis, line 28, it is written, "And God blessed them; and
God said to them, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue
it, and rule over the fish of the sea, and over birds of the heavens, and
over all animals creeping on the earth."

OK, Reverend Soltesz, how do you interpret "and subdue it"?  Remember that
not all of us are as gifted as you in interpreting the bible.  Some of us
are mere simpletons while you're nothing but a fart in the mist.

Joe Szalai

"America owes most of its social prejudices to the exaggerated religious
opinions of the different sects which were so instrumental in establishing
the colonies."
               James Fenimore Cooper

There are (and always have been) people who want to tell us what to think,
who to feel.
They have never succeed (so far).

Zoltan:
>I continue the survey of the President's Victory Speech
>which was given on the night of the last election. I
>picked up the statements of the President which deal with
>the role of God Almighty in the American history, and the
>President's own personal fate. I do it in order to make it
>clear, that the American Christianity is so deeply rooted
>in the way people think in this country that even the
>President has to address publicly the role the Almighty
>God plays in America.
>
>And also, I do it in order to wish you all happy
>Thanksgiving, and to offer my gift of packing the
>President's God-related ideas on this specific occasion
>as food for your own thought.
>
>Cheer up, the life is short.
>                                                  Sz. Zoli
>
>**********************************************************
>
>President William Jefferson Clinton is speaking:
>(Victory Speech on election night)
>Part 2
>
>                  On a purely personal note, I must thank my pastor, Rex
>                  Horn, who prayed with me before I came out here
>                  tonight, and all the ministers and people of God who
>                  prayed for me and with me over these last four years.
>
>Are you surprised? You should not! Bill Clinton prayed
>to God for the success. He asked the Almighty to help
>him in his ways. He did not only prayed to God but he
>also had his pastor, Mr Horn pray for him. And who are
>these misterious 'people of God'? Undoubtedly, the
>people of God are the Christians of America, many of
>whom prayed for the President.

multi snip ... snip.... snip ....

Zoltan, get a bumper stick on your car (if you have one) with "Honk if U
love Jesus!" on it. Stop in a crowded crossroad. You will see how many
people love Jesus. Some will even say (and cry!) "Oh my God!" and "Jesus
Christ!" If you repeat this experience in other countries (with the
appropriate translation of the bumper stick) you will see that most of the
people love Jesus.