Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Copyright (C) HIX
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  39 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
3 Election Jokes (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
4 Hungarian Economy - Part 2 (mind)  129 sor     (cikkei)
5 Tragedy in the Heartland (fwd) (mind)  107 sor     (cikkei)
6 The end of Church, morals...? (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
7 fantasy stories etc... (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
8 Gutter language (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
9 Hungarian Economy - Part 1 (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind)  44 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  65 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind)  73 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Toronto. (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
22 East Euro Jewish History & Culture Mailing List (fwd) (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
23 Info (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:26 AM 8/26/96 -0400, Peter Soltesz wrote:

>Gabor I do understand exactly what you are talking about. The major
>problem is that the govt allowed on the one side a rise in consumer
>prices witout the benfit of pay raises.

        Did you think this through, Peter? As it is there is too much
consumption and hence, inflation. As for pay raises. People's pay checks
have nothing to do with the government. However, there is a very large
segment of society who still works for either the central government or for
local government, including doctors and teachers. Where do you think the
money would come from for these salaries which may be double of what they
are today. And what would happen to consumption and the inflation rate.

>One cannot instantly re-arrange the cost structure to western standards
>without a lot of pain.

        Yes, this is quite correct and unfortunately this truism hasn't sunk
in yet. Moreover, with the slow privatization and slow moving toward market
economy, the pain has been extended.

        And as a footnote to all this. The latest upheaval in Hungary is the
government's postponement of raising energy prices to a level that the newly
privatized energy companies can make at least eight percent profit this
year. The companies' understanding was that the date for the raise is
October 1 and it is a steep rise in price: 40 percent. (That gives you an
idea how relatively cheap energy still is and how wastefully it is used.
>From most so-called "panel houses" the heat simply disappears. In the days
of cheap Soviet oil, the builders didn't care about energy efficiency, just
cheap building costs.) Horn's cabinet postponed the deadline to January 1.
The reaction is elation as far as the consumers are concerned. As far as the
foreign owners and Hungarian and foreign investors are concerned the
reaction is rather less sanguine. The shares of MOL dropped ten percent in
the London and Budapest stock markets and there is fear that foreign
investors again will be scared away from the Hungarian market where one
cannot trust the word of the Hungarian government. A similar situation to
the HungarsHotel fiasco a year and a half ago.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 07:29 PM 8/26/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:

>Then don't!  And don't question my passion, either.  It's source is not
>hatred, but keep thinking that if you find it comforting.  At least that way
>you won't have to answer any of the concerns that I may have expressed.
>You'll just declare that I'm seething with hatred and should be ignored.
>Fine.  You win.

        All right! Let's assume that there is no hatred whatsoever, only the
purest passion. However, any passion, pure or not, stands in way of rational
discourse. You refuse to see the problems facing the welfare state as it
exists in Canada and in Western Europe. You don't seem to consider the flip
side: the loss of competitiveness, the ever-growing budget deficits, the
higher and higher taxes, the larger and larger bureaucracy. I am sure there
are other drawbacks, but these are the most obvious. Also, I am not sure
whether the welfare state as it exists in some countries is actually good
for the human soul. Perhaps if struggle is taken away from us something
happen to us which may not be good for us in the long run. I think these are
very legitimate questions, which you in your passionate espousal of the
welfare state refuse to answer.

        So, may I suggest to you to look at the facts with little less
passion and more analytical thinking?

        Eva Balogh
+ - Election Jokes (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I figured being that this week is the Democrats Politico, and 2 weeks ago
was the Republican Politico...it is time to start laughing!!!
Here are some items that may lighten  your spirits:

You can put wings on a pig, but you cant make it an eagle --
Bill Clinton on an amended welfare reform bill.

Bob Dole looked for a running mate who is a perfect 10.
That was easy number for Bob Dole to remember because it also happens to
be hois Social Security number......When Bill Clinton is looking for a
ten, he is talking about a cocktail waitress at Hooters --
David Letterman

When you say I have not told the truth, you have to be specific --
Cong.. Wes Cooley (R-OR)

Do you know what you call it when a gymnast completely reverses himself
and lands on his feet??
That is called a Bill Clinton --- Jay Leno

Am I Right?  --  Ross Perot

Fear is the foundation of most governments --- John Adams

A leader is a dealer in hope --- Napoleon Bonaparte

<<end >>
+ - Hungarian Economy - Part 2 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Economic Prospects, 1996 [HUNGARY]

   Our forecast relies on the analysis of the macroeconomic developments
   of the past year, statistical data relating to the beginning of the
   current one, the results of KOPINT-DATORG's business survey and
   certain further indicators (corporate stocks and orders, for

   Last year's developments and recent data project an ambiguous picture
   of the prospects of Hungarian economy for 1996. As for the very
   short-term perspectives, the decline of industrial production
   experienced at the end of the past year (following the slow-down in
   the second half of the year) and, furthermore, the rather mingled but,
   all in all, somewhat pessimistic expectations of companies seem to
   forecast a certain shrinking for the months to come. Recent data
   concerning the early 1996 (January-February) performance of foreign
   trade also give cause for concern, reporting as they do a very modest
growth of exports, a relatively fast expansion of imports and a
   relatively large trade deficit.

   To these hardly optimistic expectations and the unfavourable
   developments of the beginning of the year one may oppose the
   exceptionally high volume of industrial orders and the fact, moreover,
   that investments have been gathering speed in the last quarter of
   1995, after the fall in the second and third quarters.

   In spite of that, however, it is not impossible for total economic
   production to slightly decrease in the beginning of 1996. But what can
   be expected for the whole year?

   Our forecast starts out from the assumption that in 1996 the economy
   will not be subjected to shocks similar in nature and strength to
   those in 1995 - because no such measures will be necessary. On this
   ground, it is expected that economic developments will be shaped by
   autonomous movements of the economy and changes in the external
   environment. Domestic absorption of the GDP is not likely to decline
   any further; a slight growth is probable. The volume of total (private
and public) consumption may decrease moderately, but we cannot expect
   further significant fall in private consumption. Public consumption,
   on the other hand, may decline further.

   The volume of investments, on the other hand, may definitely increase
   - the decline of public investments is likely to stop, while private
   investments may further expand. This process may be supported by the
   growth of corporate profits discussed previously.

   As for prospective changes in the external absorption of the GDP
   (i.e., the balance on visible and invisible trade), it is to be
   expected that exports will keep growing strongly throughout the year,
   while imports will revive. This forecast is based on the assumption
   that the 1995 real exchange rate correction will not cease to exert a
   positive influence on exports in 1996 - on the contrary, most of its
   favourable effects will manifest themselves this year. Moreover,
   corporate investments realised over the past years, mainly from
   foreign credits, can be expected to expand export capacities.

   The revival of imports is forecast not only on the basis of the
additional demand for imports implied by the growth of exports, but
   also because the measures introduced in Spring 1995 have most probably
   decreased the demand for imports temporarily only, not finally.

   Our numerical forecasts are as follows. Domestic consumption will
   decrease by 0.5-1%, while investments will increase by 7-8% and
   exports and imports expand by 8-10 and by 3-4%, respectively. All that
   projects a 2-2.5% economic growth for the current year at 1994 prices.
   A $2-2.5 billion deficit of the current account and a 4.5-5% deficit
   on the general government relative to the GDP (not including
   privatisation revenues) are consistent with this forecast.

   A consumer price increase of 22-24% is predicted for 1996. If the
   anti-inflationary trend were to become much more decisive within
   economic policy as a whole - implying a reconsideration of
   administrative price increases, a revision of the price policy of
   monopolies and restraint from official declarations that might
   intensify the inflationary psychosis - the price increase rate could
   be closer to 22%.

Our forecast concerning the performance of the economy, however,
   relies on several assumptions, the most important being those related
   to the relationship of prices and wages on the one hand, and prices
   and the rate of exchange on the other.

   If in this year, the rate of price increase were to exceed perceptibly
   the one envisaged by us, Hungarian economy would have to face two
   kinds of dangers. First, given the pre-announced crawl of the Forint
   (a monthly 1.2% for the first half of the year), the real appreciation
   of the Forint could start anew and this would eventually (probably not
   this year, but later on) result in a fall in exports, a rapid growth
   in imports and the deterioration in the trade and payment balances - a
   danger further intensified by the potential adjustment of wages to the
   higher rate of inflation.

   The other danger stems from the fact that while nominal wages would
   only increase at the 19% rate agreed in the framework of interest
   reconciliation, prices would increase much faster than that. If this
   were the case, another significant reduction in real wages would occur
   - in spite of the (declared) intentions of economic policy. This fall
in real wages would not necessarily improve the external balance, but
   might hinder the growth of the economy by curtailing domestic

      Macroeconomic indicators and KOPINT-DATORG's forecast (percent)

Code:                                                      1994 / 1995* / 1996*
NOTE: In Hungary a comma (,) is equal to a decimal point in numbers.

Annual real growth
GDP                                                      2,9 / 1-1,5 / 2-2,5
Private consumption                                             0,7 /
-(4-5) / -(0,5-1,5)
Collective consumption                                -11,2 / -(5-6) / -(3-4)
Investments                                                    12,2 /
0-2 / 6-8
Exports                                                13,7 / 14,0 / 8-10
Imports                                                  8,8 / -3,0 / 3-4
Consumer price index                                   18,8 / 28,2 / 22-24
Unemployment rate                                              10,4 /
10,4 / 10,6
Current account (USD billion)                           -3,9 / -2,5 / -(2-2,5)
Current account (% of GDP)                              -9,5 / -5,3 / -4,0
Government budget balance (% of GDP)a           -8,1 / -6,5 / -(4,5-5)
Primary deficit                                                 -2,5 /
+1,8 / +(3-3,5)
Interest payments                                               -5,6 /
-8,3 /  -8,0

   * Estimate ///    ** Forecast ///      (a) Without privatisation proceeds.
+ - Tragedy in the Heartland (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

SORRY, Mr. Soltesz!  I don't mean to be bothersome, but I was just forwarded
 this interesting posting written by a heterosexual mother.  It may interest yo
 simply to read it. It deals more with the realistic situations of others than
 just our idealistic discussions.  After our "talks" I simply would find it too
much of a waste to delete this from my screne without sharing it with you.

To all those who have been in the trenches and feel
the stress of burnout:

Burn-out is a problem that afflicts many dedicated
people. I think the risk of burn-out is less likely
when you are closer to the battle line.  I have
been asked to speak at many different large metropolitan
areas in this last year. One thing I continuously encounter
is shock at the horror stories that is daily life for GLBT
people and their families in the Heartland of our
country.  I know that homophobia, hatred and fear abound
in all comunities. But for many small communities across
the nation this is still 1950's . .
.with the 1950's mindset.

I have done 15 speaking engagements this last year.  I
still have not conquer my fear of public speaking.  Each
engagement is a gut-wrenching war with my number one
phobia.  Sometimes I whoop the dragon; sometimes it
whoops me. Rumors has it that my ex-minister is threatening
to file a libel civil suit against me for telling my story.
My home has been broken into twice within the last six
weeks.  Nothing is ever taken.  It is as though someone
wants us to know that their menacing presence has been here.
The police asked if we had any enemies.  Now we are beginning
to receive harrassing phone calls with a mechanized voice.
I am having personal crisis issues going on in my life.  My
response to all this . . .well, I plan to take a huge step
in being more out in my community by approaching all the
local newspapers about our chapter's presence in their
community and to promote the hotline number for the national
Family-to-Family hotline.

Why?  This last year I have personally dealt with the
following:  homeless, abandoned by family, teenaged lesbians
living in a storage shed in the dead of winter - one was
pregnant; Jimmy being denied access to his dying, beloved
Jamie,  a desperate search for a teenage boy who was attempting
suicide - luckily we reached him at the very moment he was
taking an exacto knife to his wrists; a teenage boy who was
forcefully committed to a mental hospital, when his parents
discovered he was gay;  another boy who was made to crawl
on his hands and knees and  beg  forgiveness, so his parents
would allow him to continue to live with them - his parents
have forced a life of total isolation on this fine, young
man who was just beginning to bloom into his affirming
self; a seventeen year old sitting in my living room who just
had the hospital bind his wounds from a recent gaybashing
to have me help bind the more permanent wounds on his dignity;
a fifteen year old lesbian whose parents changed the locks
on their home to deny their daughter even her personal
belongings; dealing with the realization that my Eddie who is
dying of AIDS has to be driven over an hour to find a
hospital who won't mistreat him; and lastly, this weekend
a gay youth in my son's support group decided life had
become too unbearable and flung himself out of a speeding car.

Their faces, their eyes,  their stories haunt me.  They
build a fire in my belly . . . a fire so intense that it
threatens to consume me, if I do not take action.  These
are our children, our brothers, our sisters.  They are
bleeding.  They are dying.  And they are bleeding and dying
in a world that does not give a damn about them.  They need
us. Oh, god, how they need us.

Please take the much deserved respite to ease the burden
of burnout.  But please do not forget their plight and those
of us on the frontlines who have no one to step in, if we have
a need to step down.  Our respites come in small victories that
are few and far between.  Rest, relax and then come
back back with renewed vigor to fight. For this indeed is a
war . . . a war in which the only bodies that lie at our
feet are those of our GLBT loved ones.

Forgive me. It is not I who speaks but the fire that
burns within.

Love and peace,
Rhea Murray >

> ==================================================

This message is from Rhea Murray, a PFLAG mom and a close friend
of mine. Rhea has given permission to her message disseminated across
the Internet.  There is more about Rhea on the World Wide Web
at  http://www.critpath.org/pflag-talk/support/reason/

Maggie Heineman >

webmaster, PFLAG-Talk/TGS-PFLAG]

=============Permission to Repost ===================

----- End Included Message -----
+ - The end of Church, morals...? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mr. Soltesz:

I suggest we put our debate to rest for a while. I have other things to con-
centrate on, and you have other topics to contribute to.

The debate is starting to go in a circle now.  I thank you for your responses,
but so many of my basic questions were never answered or adressed, so we may
as well set our sights on other things.

If any more comments come on the line from Mr. Szekely or others, I will gladly
join in, but I think we should both be happy with the number of statements we
have made and simply move on.

I did post two responses earlier this morning, but I do not know if they ever
reached the list.  I got a LISTSERV message that says the "List is held."

Good-bye for now and thank you,
+ - fantasy stories etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


What can't you understand?  English?

Repeat: Does allowing one man to marry another man mean YOU must divorce your
        wife.  If a gay person gets married, how does that hurt your marriage?

WHERE DOES THE ABOVE STATEMENT MENTION SEX?  You are the only person here fixa-
ted on sex!  I talk about relationships and positive roles, but YOU keep on
mentioning SEX!

Faithful married couples have gotten AIDS w/o knowing it.  That is, the husband
had it in his system before he married and unknowingly passed it to his loving,
faithful wife!  You do not know what your god intended, you cannot even tell
me where it says in the New Testament that homosexuals are bad!!!

The Church is a recruiter.  If you call my philosophy of giving people an equal
chance to live a "homo philosophy" than you are very narrow, one-track minded.
Where is this love of god? If Christians understand this love of god, where to
they tend to spread so much hatred and destruction?

Yes, you are missing something.  You said gays molest children, so I said there
are more heterosexuals who molest children.  It is strange, then, that you do
not treat heterosexuals as lowly as you treat gays!  What did you not under-
stand? The nouns or the verbs?

Peter, you admit many of the faults of the Catholic Church, for example.  Why
does that not matter to you?  People say Communists were evil because of 60
years of corruption, murder and power struggle, yet others keep on protecting
Christianity after centuries of similar perversions. The Church has a stench
that rises to the Heavens.

 The situation caused by outlawing abortion in Romania
was horrendous.  Why make up a hypothesis about free-love, when that did not
happen? Does such a fantasy story seem to cover up the reality of the terrible
anti-abortion policy of Romania?  When looking at an issue why do you have to
often (Szkely does this more) have to invent a little story or other issue to
escape from the unplesant to divert the present topic?

You seem very idealistic.
Mandatory marriage classes sound like the answer and very idealistic, but let's
live in today's world.  Even if that were possible (even in Third World Coun-
tries) who would pay for all the teachers... materials... who would have time
to go to the classes...

Thank you again,
+ - Gutter language (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Am I the only one who thinks that the level of discourse on this list has
reached the gutter?  It seems to me that a lot of people permit themselves
the use of language that is not normally used in civilized discourse between
supposedly educated people.  The worst of a bad lot is a relative newcomer
who, in addition of inundating the list with hundreds of lines of militant
homosexual and anti-religious tirades, produces prose that would make a
sailor blush.

Of course I am referring to  who saw fit to write in

>What does AIDS and death have to do with anything??  Are you immortal?  If
>good made AIDS to destroy gays, he sure is a faszfej.  Your god is such an
>he has kill numerous babies and young mothers.  He has also killed social
>workers, doctors, nurses...  When people in your family die, we will all
>what kinds of sinning monsters they were to let themselves get sick.
>Zoli: Here's another question:  Why did Pope John-Paul I die so young and
>denly??  God sure must hate him!
>- Mark>

This person apparently enjoys the attention he is getting as a result of his
outrageous prose.  He may not realize the total lack of taste and decent
breeding his writings demonstrate.  I feel that the best response to this
type of writing is the use of the Page Down button -- which I will be using
from now on whenever I see his name).  I would like to suggest the same to
others as well.  Anyway, the topic has by now veered far from any Hungarian

+ - Hungarian Economy - Part 1 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Here is what the Hungarina government says about what they want to
accomplish with the economy of Hungary.:

Economic Policy of the Government [Hungary]

   Today's Hungarian Socialist (MSZP) and Free Democrats (SZDSZ)
   coalition government announced a program before its victory in the
   general elections of May, 1994. The program stipulates the
   strengthening of the market economy; the establishment of conditions
   conducive to economic growth, based on modernization, technical
   development and restructuring; the slowing and eventual reversal of
   the increase in unemployment; the prevention of a further
   deterioration of the external and internal balances with a view to
   improve them later; the curbing of inflation; and the amerlioration of
   social tensions resulting from the burdens of the socio-economic

   These goals are to be achieved by encouraging private enterprise,
   savings, and investments both foreign and domestic, and by developing
   the domestic capital market; by implementing the reform of public
finances to bring about a changed structure of expenditures and a
   reduction in the ratio of public expenditures relative to the GDP; by
   a reorganisation of the banking system and the privatization of
   commercial banks; by the acceleration of the privatization of state
   assets; by the acceleration of the economic, structural and
   institutional preparations required for accession to the European
   Union; by the growth and diversification of exports; by recapturing a
   part of the lost Eastern European markets; by expanding to markets
   outside Europe; by halting and reversing the decline of agriculture;
   and by giving high priority to the development of the infrastructure,
   particularly to transport, telecommunications, information
   technologies, data transmission, housing, tourism and communal
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary and an unrelated questio (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Tibor Benke
>duly and nobly warning us all in advance of the esoteric
nature of his subject, writes:

>What I gathered was central, was the search for something they called,
>"authentic being"  or sometimes just, "authenticity".  This was nearly
>inpossible to achieve and could only be achieved within relationship they
>often described as, "I-Thou".  Sort of like the Grail and the Quest.
>knowledge and reason was considered neccessary for achieving authenticity
>in the I-Thou relationship, eventually what was called "a leap of faith"
>had to be made: action taken, responsibility accepted, commitment (a real
>popular buzzword) made, with only what a person knew to be neccessarily
>incomplete and inadequate information.  This is all I learned about
>Existentialism.  (Though I tried to learn more but: some people think MY
>writing is obscure!)  And, what is worse, I tried to apply it.  Dispite
>appearances, I am probably as authentic as I can ever be.  And so are
>dear reader!

This may be existentialist in nature, but it's not entirely clear to me
that it's Heideggerian. The "I-Thou" schema comes from Martin Buber. I
would argue, just for the sake of argument, that your statement that
knowledge and reason are necessary for attaining authenticity in any
relationship is problematic from a Heideggerian standpoint. That's because
Heidegger sees the Cartesian search for scientific-rational knowledge as a
function of the fallenness of Dasein, indeed a distraction from authentic
being. Knowledge and reason as a pathway to authentic being sounds rather
like Emerson and Thoreau than anything else -- the "know thyself" of
transcendentalism. Kind of interesting to kick around, though.

A Hungarian aside here: Granted that Hungarian culture has been graced
with an extraordinary number of brilliant scientists, poets, composers,
mathematicians, artists, writers, etc. -- what about the field of
philosophy? We've heard much about Lukacs here recently, little of it
offering much critical insight into his thought. Is Lukacs the best
Hungary has to offer in the field of 20th Century philosophy? Who are some
of the other major Hungarian philosophers of this century and where do
they fit into the complex matrix of Continental philosophy?
Sam Stowe

"I only use my gun
Whenever kindness fails..."
-- Robert Earl Keen
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>> Zoli:why don't you talk about those priest who are and were on trial for
>> abusing kids,for whom they offered shelter and education?
>These priests did not accept the authority of the
>Church, did not accept the authority of the faith,
>did not accept the authority of the teaching of
>their very own profession. Also, they did not accept
>the authority of the society. Too many bad mistakes
>for clergymen. Why should I talk about them? If they
>go to prison, I will clap my hands.
>                                         Sz. Zoli
>Yes Zoli some of them went to jail,but most of them with the help of the
Church got transfers to other locations,so they can do the same thing all over.
As far as I can see,once a priest is ordaned,have a church he did accept the
Church and it's faith.No question about that.How they tooke advantage of the
people who believed in them is another matter.
There is no excuse for those,they are criminals in the lowest of possible form.
At the same time please explain me why the churcu and his Holiness the Pope
never said anything about the killing of Jews?I know first hand how antisemite
(Jewish haters)the priest were since at that time the teaching was that the
Jews killed Jesus.When did this change?
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


Stop the nonsense.  You never surrendered to any god.  If you did, you would
have stopped doing his judging for him.  You cannot answer my questions I ask
you, but all you can do is make up cute sayings about Jesus on the cross. Yes,
I mean Yahweh.  You do not seem to have surrendered to anything, you seem too
pretentious, arrogant and judgemental for that.

If your god is the ultimate authority, how dare you judge for him! How do you
know it didn't create homosexuals? It is pathetic when small, unaccepting,
inhospitable minds claim to understand great, creative, ultimate ones.

You implied several times earlier that AIDS is god's punishment of gays.  If
that is so, then I repeat again that your Yahweh is then an utter inept ass.
Can't he even pin point who he (it) wants to punish?  He must not really care
if more than half the people who die are "innocents!"

BTW: The only closet I would ever like to get out of are the ones in your house

- Mark
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh said:
 with the introduction of
welfare for dependent children was not necessarily beneficial to the welfare
recipients. Black families suffered the most, but surely it didn't help the
statistics on out-of-wedlock births, teenage pregnancies, and so on and so
One of the critical items that most often seem to go unnoticed is that
the welfare state tends to create (especially in the US) a dependence and
a state of I cant do it for myself syndrome. It takes away the incentice
and moreover, it dampens the spirit of self esteem. The l;atter is
required of all to be successful and to survive.
Peter Soltesz
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter A. Soltesz

>Mark here is my response (in part)
>1- against what God's nature is.

i thought god's nature was unknowable or something. though i forget as no
gods seem to speak to me directly. which i am quite happy about.

>2- it destroys the family unit -- the basis for all human life on earth

there seems to be some confusion as to what constitutes life versus what
constitutes reproduction.

>3- it is one more "sin = the transgression of the law"

whose law? not mine. "sin"? hah. you concept of "sin" ain't mine.

>4- it is evidenced by AIDS and other degenerative diseases

this has so often been refuted that it deserves no further comment.

>5- it pollutes the psyche of children and others and perverts the good
>and grace of God.

ridiculous. perhaps you are confusing homosexuality with paedophilia,
which, by the way, is mostly perpetrated by heterosexuals. (the god part i
ain't gonna get into)

>++ Moreover, it is something that when analyzed yields a mind set that
>++ allows one to consider it OK (or normal) {which in my opinion is not}.

"allows" one to consider? thus, would you "disallow" one to consider?

>++ If I may say another thing (not related to your comments)
>++ it is this type of thinking that permits people to kill babies that
>++ are either unborn or as in partial birth abortions.

aha. i am starting to gain some insight into your bigoted mindset.

but still... what the hell is a "partial birth abortion"? a selective
pre-birth amputation?

>++ It is basically an ethical question. Let me please define the difference
>++ between ethical and moral. In Brazil it is morally acceptable to have
>++ intercourse with a 14 year old (it is legal, one can marry also)
>++ Yet it is ethically wrong, because a 14 year old girl does not know
>++ the difference nor the conseqences of her action.
>++ The concept of // If it feels good do it is wrong, stupid, and very
>dangerous! //

sexuality between consenting adults has nothing to do with your so called
ethical example.

and let us not forget that in your twisted world, you would, if the 14 yr
old became pregnant, force her to bear the child. who then may end up like
thousands of other such children of children in brazil. on the street,
selling herself for food.


> ----------------------------------------------------
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 06:22 PM 8/26/96 -0700, Gabor Farkas wrote:

>At 01:58 PM 8/26/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
>>Oh brother!  What incredible nonsense.  You want the abolition of the
>>welfare state?  Get real!!
>Finally, a good debate on a noncontroversial issue. I think that I should
>explain what I mean by welfare state: a state that takes my hard earned
>money away and gives it to those who refuse to make the smallest effort to
>earn a living.

Wow!  End of a good debate.  What you're talking about is not the welfare
state.  You're talking about abuse of welfare.  There is a difference, you
know.  Hyperbolize your comments and expect a fight.

Joe Szalai

P.S.  I don't know where you got your defination for "welfare state", but
it's wrong.  Look for better sources.
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Peter A. Soltesz:

>Mark --- without getting into an argument I would just like to make an
>observation on your comment if I may:
>Without making a judgement on either side, you have perhaps forgotten
>that one
>other thing. Namely the consequences of certain choices

ah, certainly, certainly. hemophiliacs chose sinful lack of coagulants.
they also chose to be infected with tainted blood.

how very irresponsible of them not to consider the consequences of... breathing

oops, so sorry, you were talking of ahm... homosexuality. that is, in your
cosmology, homosexuality is equated with a disease. which, by the way,
mainly affects heterosexuals in say, africa.

cute observations you have.

and from another post:

>What I did say is that I tought that it is their
>action of being gay (their choice!) is what is wrong.

wrong for whom? well let's see now... if they are not gay, well, then they
should not choose to be gay. yes. and if they are gay, well, then they
should not choose not to be gay. it's quite simple really.

>If I were to argue
>any opther way then it would not make sense.

actually... <sigh>

>I also stated in a previous
>message that I worked with professional gays in a firm.

myself, i know mainly amateur homosexuals. i guess i'm naive or something.


> ----------------------------------------------------
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

> Sam, if you want
>to continue spreading this stuff (the name of
>this list is HUNGARY!!), then, please, hit
>the road and leave this list alone.
>                                    Sz. Zoli

Blah, blah, blah. Bite me, Jew hater. You don't own the list and you don't
call the tune. This is particularly rich coming from you, who have spared
no effort in trying to spread anti-semitism and homophobia on this list.
Sam Stowe

"I only use my gun
Whenever kindness fails..."
-- Robert Earl Keen
+ - Re: Speaking in many tongues (was Re: American Imperial (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
>At 10:07 PM 8/21/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:
>>I've never said it was wrong, Joe. Did you know that I happen to serve
>>a Spanish translator for a local police department? Why would I bother
>>study the language for over two decades and learn to speak it with
>>fluency if I thought it was wrong to teach it and learn it? But there
is a
>>vast difference between learning to read, write and speak Spanish and
>>devoting an entire high school education to instruction in Spanish. The
>>former opens you up to a world beyond the borders of the U.S. The
>>constricts your world without you ever having to set foot outside your
>>national borders. Once more you speak out of your rear end, cuate. When
>>you do this in future, I suggest we all refer to you as "assuming the
>>Sam Stowe
>You're cornered, Sam!  And your anal-expulsiveness is showing.  Do you
>expect me to believe that those who are "devoting an entire high school
>education to instruction in Spanish" are incapable of speaking English.?
>Give me a break, senor.  I know people in Ontario who had all their
>schooling in French.  And d'ya know what?  Their 'ingles' is flawless!
>posible?  Si!
>And there are people on this newsgroup who had all their high school
>education in Hungarian.  Do they seem at a loss?  Is their world
>constricted?  What constricts someones world is not whether or not their
>instruction was in Spanish, French, Hungarian or English, but that they
>only high school education.  Look where that's gotten Peter Soltesz!

I have to agree with Sam.  Yes, I was handicapped in Canada because my
education was in Hungarian, although I happen to speak 4 languages other
than Hungarian - but all of it with a heavy Hungarian accent.  Of course,
it depends on your profession.  For many professions you don't need
language skills.  I was laid off once from a job because my boss couldn't
stand my accent!  Unilingual Quebecers (ironically, now it is the French
Canadians, because all the anglos and allos are going into immersion
schools and are fully bi or trilingual) speaking French only have really
no future in Canada outside Quebec.  I can see the unilingual Spanish
speaking people have no great future in the US either.


>I think your fear and concern is misplaced.  I think that what you're
>afraid of is the continued spread of Spanish in the United States.  Just
>up to it, Sam.
>And I'm not speaking out of my rear end.  That's just the sensation you
>experience when you have your ear butted against my ... well, butt.  As
>"assuming the position", just keep in mind that if you fart upwind, only
>Joe Szalai
>"Only Socrates knew, after a lifetime of unceasing labor, that he was
>ignorant. Now every high-school student knows that. How did it become so
>          Allan Bloom
+ - Re: Church, morals, identities etc... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> What process caused you to become a social outcast, Zoli?  Did it already
> start in Hungary or do you think you're still experiencing culture shock?
Come on, Joe, is it really you who ask me?
It is so funny...

(You see, that's exactly what I like about you:
your undeniably original sense of humor.)

                                      Sz. Zoli
+ - Re: Unaffordability of Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


On Mon, 26 Aug 1996, S or G Farkas wrote:

> At 01:58 PM 8/26/96 -0400, Joe Szalai wrote:
> >  You want the abolition of the welfare state?  Get real!!
> Finally, a good debate on a noncontroversial issue.

> Maybe we should do it like in the joke about the asylum:

 But remember what counts is not the joke itself, but how it's told: some
may laugh when I say '7' but not when you do or vice versa ;-)...

PS Incidentally I think you bungled this terrific joke quite badly ;-(
 Zoli , keeper of <http://www.hix.com/hungarian-faq/>;
*SELLERS BEWARE: I will never buy anything from companies associated
*with inappropriate online advertising (unsolicited commercial email,
*excessive multiposting etc), and discourage others from doing so too!

Version: 2.6.2

+ - Re: Toronto. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
>Andy wrote:
>If I made some mistakes maybe Peter Hidas could give some more
>I am not a historian,but only a spectator.
>I am also a spectator and a victim as well. My children and
grandchildren are
>on their way to a more promising land - Ontario. Quebec will leave
>regardless of the cost of separation. The French-Canadian elite will
>they will obtain full control of their land. I estimate the cost at 20%
>decline in living-standard. Remember, Quebec is a rich province and can
>cope with independence far better than let's say Slovakia. After a few
>angry years business will be as usual. The farmers and unionized workers
>will suffer the most, but by the time they will realize that it will be
>too late.
>The above is an original chrystal ball statement.
>Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

We immigrated to Canada in 1963 and lived in Montreal for 14 happy years.
We picked up and moved in 1977, after the first separatist victory.  We
never looked back.  It will be terrible for everyone if Quebec separates
- but it is so much better to follow referenda on the news from Toronto!
+ - East Euro Jewish History & Culture Mailing List (fwd) (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I've forwarded this info for interested parties on this list:

the premier mailing list on Jewish society in eastern Europe
invites you to become a member.
For details check http://acad.bryant.edu/~kbrook/eejh.html
or email 
to subscribe, send a message to: 
your message must say: subscribe eejh
We look forward to your participation!
+ - Info (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Mark, you wrote:

>try answering a few questions for a change:
>1) Who answered all those wonderful prayers to St. Christopher???
>2) If the Church thinks reproductive rights are so sacred, why the castrati?
>   Why did the Church castrate little boys so they could sing higher???
>3) Where does the term faggot come from???

I am sorry, but I don't know the answer to 1) and 3). So would you mind telling
them to me. If you don't want to come out with the 'slussz poen' yet, please
send them in a private mail.