Good work everyone!
s

On Wed, 27 Sep 1995, Toth Tamas wrote:

>         (Arms...)
>
>         Dear Joe Pannon!
>         Thanks for the info; I didn't know about that split.  I noticed dif-
> ferences between FORUM and SZALON, of course (with due overlaps), but I
> thought, that HUNGARY, the only list accessible to non-Hungarians must be
> sort of a FORUM in English.  If some lines of thought are unwelcome by tacit
> agreement or per definition, I apologize.  I certainly didn't want to be
> the proverbial elephant in the china shop :-)

Dear Tamas,
The HUNGARY list on bitnet is just one of the lists available for
non-Hungarians. Beside others, there is e.g. the Hungarian Medieval List,
Subscription   mailto:
Postings       mailto:

Also, there is the Hungarian-American List:
Subscription   mailto:
( in fact, mailto:
  with no subject, in the body write
  subscribe hungary )
Postings       mailto:

Below, you can find some titles of postings to the Hungarian-American
list from the past couple of days.
Take care,
Gotthard

..
Title    Date   Person                                          Size

    270  Sep 20 Gyula I. Varga                                 (2,468)
AAYH 9.3
    271  Sep 21 Hungarian-American List                        (6,912)
USA/Hungary - CET On-Line Vol.2, No.183, Sep/21/95
    272  Sep 21 Hungarian-American List                        (3,713)
Hungary - Voice of America Newswire, Sep/21/95
    273  Sep 21 Hungarian-American List                        (5,884)
USA/Hungary - OMRI Daily Digest No.184, Sept/21/95
    274  Sep 21                              (5,033)
Clinton-Iliescu Meeting
    275  Sep 21 John Czifra                                    (9,174)
Is it, really, " propaganda "??
    276  Sep 21 To: ,   (4,124)
Re: HUNGARIAN FOOD
    277  Sep 22 To:                        (2,670)
Mails from Colin McLachlan
    278  Sep 22 Hungarian-American List                        (7,325)
USA/Hungary - OMRI Daily Digest No.185, Sept/22/95
    279  Sep 22 Hungarian-American List                        (8,511)
USA/Hungary - CET On-Line Vol.2, No.184, Sep/22/95
    280  Sep 23                              (3,710)
Clinton-Iliescu: Last chance
    281  Sep 23 Hungarian-American List                        (2,874)
Hungary - Voice of America Newswire, Sep/23/95
    282  Sep 24 Robert E. Flynn                                (1,688)
A hirek magyarul
    283  Sep 24                              (3,588)
Magyar Cserkeszek
    284  Sep 25 Hungarian-American List                        (6,269)
USA/Hungary - CET On-Line Vol.2, No.185, Sep/25/95
    285  Sep 25 Hungarian-American List                       (10,829)
USA/Hungary - OMRI Daily Digest No.186, Sep/25/95
    286  Sep 25 To: "Robert E. Flynn" >    (1,917)
Re: A hirek magyarul
    287  Sep 25 Paul Gelencser                                 (6,853)
URGENT: meeting with Iliescu
    288  Sep 26 Hungarian-American List                        (8,646)
USA/Hungary - CET On-Line Vol.2, No.186, Sep/26/95
    289  Sep 26 Hungarian-American List                       (12,409)
USA/Hungary - OMRI Daily Digest No.187,Sep/26/95
    290  Sep 27                              (2,116)
Iliescu sajtokonferencia
    291  Sep 27 Hungarian-American List                        (9,875)
USA/Hungary - CET On-Line Vol.2, No.187, Sep/27/95
    292  Sep 27 Hungarian-American List                        (4,695)
Hungary - Voice of America Newswire, Sep/27/95
    293  Sep 27 Marton-Erno Balazs                             (2,502)
Re: Iliescu sajtokonferencia
    294  Sep 27 Hungarian-American List                        (8,360)
USA/Hungary - OMRI Daily Digest No.188, Sep/27/95
    295  Sep 27 To:                        (2,161)
Re: Magyar Vilagkongresszus 1995, Cleveland, Ohio
    296  Sep 27                              (3,837)
Clinton-Iliescu megbeszelets
    297  Sep 27                             (11,251)
Fwd: Mert igertem
    298  Sep 27                             (21,051)
Fwd: Mai hirek

..
--
mailto:
http://mineral.umd.edu/~gotthard/

Dear Hungarian History Buffs,
        I am writing my honors thesis on the Hungarian Revolution of 1956, and

I need some information.  If anyone out there knows how Imre Nagy was executed,

and or where he met his end, I would very much like to know.  Also, is there

any speculation as the whereabouts of his remains?

        Thanks,

                Liev

PS-Forward replys to my mail box or post as a reply.

Dear Tamas!

You say:

>Since English is not the mothertongue for either of us, I would like
>to clear something up.  Do you feel that in my posting I (inadvertedly)
>linked Mr. Csurka to the Revolutionaries of 56?  This is what your wording
>suggests.  And if it is so, I owe you more than apologies.

No, not at all. I was talking about Csurka's linking his call for rebellion
to October 23, 1956, by using the anniversary as the date for this
"rebellion."

Then:

>>Hmm!  I think that this is a real possibility
>
>        Eva, there were issues we agreed upon, and many more on which we
>didn't, so as far as there are "camps", we are quite often in different
>ones.    Still, please don't consider me arrogant if I give an advice,
>in general, completely decoupled from the topic discussed:
>*never underestimate your adversary*.

Obviously, discussion in writing doesn't lend itself to jokes. I was joking!


Eva Balogh

> If anyone out there knows how Imre Nagy was executed,
>and or where he met his end, I would very much like to know.  Also, is there
>any speculation as the whereabouts of his remains?

This is an easy one to answer because you (Liev) are asking about well
established facts.

Imre Nagy was executed on June 16, 1958, in one of the Budapest's
prisons by hanging, with several others of his fellow leaders of the
1956 revolutionary government.

Their bodies were secretly buried in some unused area of a nearby
cementery, in unmarked graves.  The body of Nagy, for instance was not
even buried properly in a coffin; just wrapped in some tar paper and
laid face down.

Somehow the rumors started circulating about the approximate burial
place of these martirs by the '80s, but it was only confirmed officially
when the changes came in '88-89.  In fact, Nagy's re-burial on the 31st
anniversary of his death was the turning point for the regime in '89.
The changes moved fast after that.  In those few months there was hardly
an evening news show on the major TV networks without a clip from
Hungary.

I hope this helps.

Joe

Fondly recalling the orderly march of the duped masses in the long-gone
May Day celebrations of his youth, Dr Pellionisz has begun to issue the
officially approved slogans for October 23:

> "RUSZ-KIK HAZA!" [Russians go home; Tanks go home!] did not divide our
> populus in '56. VAST MAJORITY STOOD UNITED - and the tiny sliver of
> population; the traitors, quickly found themselves completely isolated.
> In '95 it should not divide our populus, at all, when on the 23rd of
> October thousands may shout "BAN-KOK HAZA!" [Banks go home!].

Dr Pellionisz will be happy to hear that, as far as the IMF is concerned,
his wish has just been granted.  It is a story almost too beautiful to
be true.  A scene to warm the heart of all true patriots.  The IMF
delegation sent to Budapest to negotiate a $300M standby credit facility
has just left the country in a huff.  Gone home, in a manner of speaking.
They felt the Hungarian side was not serious, so they up and left.  Just
like that.  Problem solved.  We really showed them this time.  I bet for
a while they are not even returning calls from anyone with a vaguely
Hungarian-sounding name.  So they can't hurt us any more by forcing their
filthy lucre down on our throat.  Serves them right.

-----
Gabor Fencsik

Tamas Toth addressed the following to me:

>        Thanks for the info; I didn't know about that split.  I noticed dif-
>ferences between FORUM and SZALON, of course (with due overlaps), but I
>thought, that HUNGARY, the only list accessible to non-Hungarians must be
>sort of a FORUM in English.  If some lines of thought are unwelcome by tacit
>agreement or per definition, I apologize.  I certainly didn't want to be
>the proverbial elephant in the china shop :-)

No, I didn't mean any such thing by saying that this was not the right
list for the topic.  I just used that as an apropos to let you (and
other recent list joiners) know about the history of that issue on
Internet lists.  Sorry for the misunderstanding my post may have caused.

Joe

Darren answering P. Hidas:

>Isn't that what Internet is all about, making such collections obsolete
>(please take this tongue in cheek-I like books)?
>
>Whoever posted that, keep asking, it starts good debate and gives people
>a chance to discuss.

Answering most of those questions on that list would require research
probably from anybody on this list, too.  I, too, think that expecting
answers for such a laundry list of questions is a bit unrealistic, to
say the least.  Most of us are pretty busy to take the time for it.

BTW, Darren, I'm sure I'm not alone who is curious how you got involved
with that Romanian-Hungarian society.  I'm sure there must be some
interesting story behind it.  After all, most Americans, unless they
have some blood (or other) ties to those "obscure" East/Central
European countries, could not care less about them.  So naturally, when
one finds somebody who cares, the question that comes to mind is: "how
come?"

Regards,
Joe

I think Zoltan Szentesi got the best handle so far on the problem that
so vexes our silver-tongued Doctor:

> Hungary needs educated personel to suck western finance. We also have
> cheap labour.

Hmm.  I'm not sure about the cheap labor.  For the amount of productivity
you would be buying, Hungarian labor is not all that cheap.  And we
better be careful with the sucking.  Don't overdo it.  But I do agree
whole-heartedly about the need for educated personnel.  We wouldn't want
the sucking to be done by uneducated rubes, would we?

-----
Gabor Fencsik

Is any Hungarian living in Australia New Zeland South Pacific? Like to
talk to me?I;m living in the USA Las Vegas Nevada i like to talk about
any subject exept politics  like to travel sports [old fradi drukker]
music Im 50 years old left Hungary in 1965  Thanks to all   Frank Benyak

Many of us in this discussion group are eager to know what was
the outcome of discussions between Clinton & Iliescu relating to
the Romanian Government's stance on the issue of Hungarians in
Transylvania. Could anyone send any relevant information to this
newsgroup please. Thanks, Ferenc

On Thu, 28 Sep 1995  wrote:

> Many of us in this discussion group are eager to know what was
> the outcome of discussions between Clinton & Iliescu relating to
> the Romanian Government's stance on the issue of Hungarians in
> Transylvania. Could anyone send any relevant information to this
> newsgroup please. Thanks, Ferenc

Bela Liptak > wrote to the Hungarian-American List:

>Most ertesultem Hamos Laszlotol, A Magyar Emberijogi Alapitvany elnoketol
>igyekezetunk atuto sikererol. Clinton elnok azt mondta Iliescu elnoknek,
>hogy latogatasaval kapcsolatban annyi fax es E-Mail tiltakozast kapott
>(meg kulfoldrol is!), hogy kivizsgalast fog elrendelni, s annyit mar most
>megmondhat, hogy az allando MNF statust nem is fogja kerni Romania
>szamara, s meg azon is gondolkozik, hogy a mult evben magadott egy eves
>hosszabbitast se javasolja.

In other words,
Due to the large number of protesting faxes and emails, Prez Clinton
is not going to ask for Rumania's  permanent Most Favoured Nation status.
Prez Clinton is going to start an investigation on the issues mentioned
in the letters, and contemplates wether to suggest the renewal of the
status for an other additional year. Bela Liptak's full letter in
Hungarian can be found at:

http://mineral.umd.edu/hungary/archive/

Thanks to all,
Gotthard

--
mailto:
http://mineral.umd.edu/~gotthard/

Dear Colleagues,

I think it would be appropriate, if once in a while Bishop Tokes received
something other than bombs in his mail. No matter how strong a man he is, it
should help him in his just, by now two front struggle (yesterday we learned
from the foreign minister of Hungary, Laszlo Kovacs, that he too is against
him) that there are some, who are with him. Please drop him a card:

Bishop Tokes Laszlo
Episcopia Reformata
Str. Marshal Ion Antonescu 1
Oradea 3700, Romania

Bela Liptak

>
> Darren answering P. Hidas:
>
> >Isn't that what Internet is all about, making such collections obsolete
> >(please take this tongue in cheek-I like books)?
> >
> >Whoever posted that, keep asking, it starts good debate and gives people
> >a chance to discuss.
>
> Answering most of those questions on that list would require research
> probably from anybody on this list, too.  I, too, think that expecting
> answers for such a laundry list of questions is a bit unrealistic, to
> say the least.  Most of us are pretty busy to take the time for it.

Point well taken Joe, I don't think most people try to answer all
questions though that they see. I suppose these people are trying to fish
a little for easy information. I admit doing it myself a few times and
individuals on this list in the past have been helpful, but then those
questions were usually things I could not find at Univ. of Kentucky.

>
> BTW, Darren, I'm sure I'm not alone who is curious how you got involved
> with that Romanian-Hungarian society.  I'm sure there must be some
> interesting story behind it.  After all, most Americans, unless they
> have some blood (or other) ties to those "obscure" East/Central
> European countries, could not care less about them.  So naturally, when
> one finds somebody who cares, the question that comes to mind is: "how
> come?"
>
> Regards,
> Joe
>
I am happy to explain, but it is not a truly interesting story.

I got involved with the group quite by accident. I was taking Magyar at
Janos Pannonius (JPTE) and decided that I wanted to take Romanian if
possible. I sent feelers around and a friend of mine studying French said
that there was a  a meeting of a Hungarian-Romanian society at the
cultural house in Pecs that usuall held French cultural exhibitions.

I went, muddled with my very bad Magyar (early in the 10 month trip mind
you) and attended a cultural exchange of a Romanian string quartet from
Brasov. Romanian dignitaries from Brasov wre in Pecs, and while I
understood little, it was a great concert.

I asked around if anyone ther knew any Hungarians who spoke Romanian and
would be willing to teach private lessons. I was put on the track of one
girl, whose father was the translator for the association and from there
began my involvement.

I traveled with the group to Brasov once, but instead of stying there I
went with my teacher to Bucaresti to visit her grandmother. The
translator is Hungarian, his wife Romanian and the daughters are
multi-lingual beyond belief. One speaks 6 languages. But, back to the
story. On the trip, the president of the association asked if I wanted to
join. I said I didn't think I would be much of an addition to the group
but Igloi Ur. pressed and I agreed.

This led to my membership, a presentation to the group about American
media perceptions of Eastern Europe (in Hungarian when the translator was
snowed in in Komlo-Hellish 1 and a half hours for my brain), and my
promise to Igloi ur that I would try to spread the word that this
association does exist in the United States.

Do I feel I am changing the world? Well, I hope in some way that my
donations and offers to spread the word will help reduce tensions. I am
critical of the group in some ways because of some behaviors exhibited
whiel traveling to Brasov by members, but then cultural sterotypes die
hard. In some ways, it seemed that the group exists to serve as a travel
society to Erdely, but then the group does sponsor exchanges between
families for sizable parts of the summer. If that helps, and as a
participant in educational exchanges I think it does, that is all I need
from it.

When I told some Hungarian-Americans and Romanian-Americans about this,
they laughed at the idea, but there are people who buy into it. It would
help if people like Funar would drown in the Somes Rece or Somes Cald,
but that is probably not going to happen soon.

I still encourage people to contact Igloi Zoltan at the address I gave
the list if you are at all interested, no matter the language (English,
Magyar, Romaneste). Pipedream, maybe...but I am still under 30 and as the
hazinenni of the apartment told me once, I have to keep dreaming.

I hope this answers some questions...albeit in too long a format but I
thought the context was important.

Darren Purcell
Department of Geography
Florida State University

>Felado : 
>HOw about visiting your friendly neighbourhood library?
  Short, but not velo:sch answer !!!
  How can you answer to my question in the same Issue ?
  Even how can D.P. answer to that answer in the same Issue???
  The question is the same, let me citate myself :
>*.: The about 23 million population in Romania :
>    How it is distributed ?
>    How many live in Transylvania and how many
>    in the rest part of Romania?
>*.: Is there "ethnic mix" in the Serb(ex-Yugo) - Romania
>    border line like in the Hungarian - Romanian border line
>    or not? If not why the "ethnic line" so "sharp"?

I was not surprised to read Miss Balogh's smoke screen.  In the futile
effort to drag her points through, she is not refraining herself of a
little character assassination  aimed at her disparate adversaries. But
let's catechize what I am writing about:

>Of course, it takes a little time to figure out what NPA actually means by
>the above sentence because his English is not at all clear.

I must felicitate to Miss Balogh, for her above the average decrypting
adequacy.   If I am not consigning anymore crimes against her intelligence
with my beclouded English logic, I would like to take the liberty, to abide
my reasonings, whatever algetic it might be for a super perspicacious
member of our digital media "Hungary" like Miss Balogh!

>But I assume he wants to compare one "revolution" to another "revolution,"
>and claims that there is no difference between the two.

Dear Eva, why are you squealing about revolution, when we were not going
that far in our reasonings?
56 did not originate as a revolution, but as a demonstration. It was the
fault of the oppressing leadership, that by shooting into the demonstra-
tors, twisted a public manifestation into a bloody revolution.
So in your mind, are you anticipating a bloody revolution of 95, if the
public would try to be boldharted enaugh to phonate their displeasure by
irenic gatherings and exhibitions?
If that is the case, than your wishful thinking is an imputation of the
past looking up to great red idols as "Buci Gyuri" and other "pufajkas"
such as the ONE who grew up in the "Brikson" and today he is nothing, but
one of the leaders of our country?
But you were almost right.  I was collating the right of the masses then &
now.  It does not matter what is the triggering actuality that commencing a
public disobedience. If the people of the country conjointly coincide on the
need for mass spectacle, than there is a case, which is legitimate and
democratic.

>The first revolution, that is in 1956, was against a totalitarian regime
>where there was no other way of expressing political opinions different
>from those of the ruling party. This is not the case today. Today, there
>are free elections and freedom of association.

That is fine!  Proclaiming, that all of this, I do not have the faintest
idea, why the heck are you bent out of shape, by a pending public gathering,
which is a way of expressing large scale public utterance? And again, you
are divulging about revolution. Why?
If the masses are unhappy with the current situation, than cohering to the
decrees of the democracy, they have the right to express their feelings,
in the same way as the people were trying to do the same thing in 56 until
the shooting embarked upon them.

>And one more thing. The demonstration which took place on October 23,
>starting at 2-3 p.m. can be in no way construed as a "lazadas" or a
>"rebellion." It was supposed to be and WAS a peaceful demonstration for
>which we, the students, had a permit from the Ministry of Interior.

So rebellion in your mind means bloodshed and carnage?
Before you grab an encyclopedia and look up the exact meaning of the word,
let me inquire:  Is there any evidence of a stockpile of weapons in the
possession of the common people of the streets?  What kind of bloody revo-
lution did you conceive and envision, without the abetting presence of any
military organizations?
Beforehand you begin breathing heavily again, computating out more personal
attacks and assailments vis-a-vis ME, I would like to persuade you, that I
would NOT like to see any mass demonstrations myself either.
BUT, our point of views are stemming from disparate origin.  You don't like
it, because you take the case as a right-wing platform.
I don't like it, because it could be a ploy, a gambit to stir up the masses
(which seems not so hard to do) in order to implement emergency measures
by the goverment and some "ex-pufajkas" of the cardinal elite!
In the light of this, it appears, that your motives and determinations are
clear & lucid!

>>I wonder how would be the tone of the critic in the case of the same
>>situation, let's say, done by the far-left?

>Exactly the same!

Uncompounded to say, but very hard to swallow, more so, to believe!!!!!!

NPA.

>
> BTW, Darren, I'm sure I'm not alone who is curious how you got involved
> with that Romanian-Hungarian society.  I'm sure there must be some
> interesting story behind it.  After all, most Americans, unless they
> have some blood (or other) ties to those "obscure" East/Central
> European countries, could not care less about them.  So naturally, when
> one finds somebody who cares, the question that comes to mind is: "how
> come?"
>
Joe, (and anyone else who cares to read further), I think I missed the
point of your question when I replied at first. I think you were after the
origins of why this area of the world fascinates me so much.
If not, please delete this now, and spare yourself the trouble.

That is perhaps a little more interesting a story. I have no blood
relatives (Nincs magyar ver nekem) in either country (or in former
Communist East Europe) but the place always seemed to be more interesting
thhan Western Europe. I grew up under the Reagan years thinking I would
probably die on a field invading Eastern Europe and then watching a
neutron bomb go up and saying my prayers in the remaining seconds.

However, the buffer states, as the Soviet Union used them, were areas I
knew nothing about and I just didn't quite believe they were as
homogenous as the images we received. Please remember though, i am a
rural, Western Kentucky native and had never met anyone from East-Central
Europe before going to the university.

That is why the early interest in the mid-80's before Gorbachev arrived
and the changes on the ground. At U. Kentucky, I met a student who had
been in Prague during the Velvet Revolution. This already served to
solidify my interest in this part of the world. And of course a 56-er by
the name of Gyula Pauer (cartography professor) did the rest. We didn't always
agree about Romania or any other situation but he always said, go see it
for yourself.

I hope that better answers you question. I have no blood interest, but
after 14 months in Pecs, I feel I have family there, Hungarians and
Romanians alike. I definitely have a Magyar mother in Ujmohacs and I feel
 like I have a Romanian mother/sister in Cluj as well. I feel
comfortable there like I would in Kentucky/Midwest. I suppose there are sexier
 regions to specialize in within geography but I feel Ihave made commitments to
people that I need to honor, including setting student perceptions about
this region straight, and tell people, it isn't all like Bosnia.
I just gave a guest lecture for another TA covering this region today, and
i think I got across a more accurate view, so I feel good. (Albeit, as Dr.
Pauer says, through my AMerican lenses).

Szervusztok, Darren

It would be shameful for anybody, but particularly deplorable for someone
claiming to be a historian to intentionally misrepresent facts.

I challenge Eva Balogh to prove her repeated statement that "call to arms"
has been issued for 23rd of October, 1995. Of course I have no way of forcing
her to respond (she can at any time ignore any unconfortable question I
pose to her), but since she is publicly accusing someone with a crime,
with her obvious malicious intent knowing that she cannot substan-
tiate her false accusation, unless she comes up with evidence we'll KNOW
that she is committing a clearly unlawful act. Just as "calling to arms"
(that she is falsely accusing someone else with) would be a clearly unlawful.

Beyond her obvious attempts of actually breaking laws in front of our very
eyes, and of falsifying facts of history, she totally discredits herself
from amounting to even the lowest class of "historian". But even beyond all
this, I find it utterly disguisting that she apparently does not even
recognize that she committs the very same error the she is accusing others
with, that some would "claim exclusive rights for the revolution of 56".

SHE does! Ms. Balogh states (what is true) that UNARMED DEMONSTRATIONS on
the 23rd of October, 1956 (in which she claims to have taken part) were
completely
legal peaceful, democratic acts. Of course they were! They started at
2-3 P.M. (after some waffling of the Ministry of Interior to allow-prohibit
then allow again the demonstrations).We have historical proof that even
the Stalinist Gero-leadership had to approve that legal demonstration.

It is revealing for the readers, however, that Ms. Balogh feels that she
could monopolize the privilege of peaceful (unarmed) demonstrations on 23rd
of Oct. of
56, at the same time denying OTHERS to do EXATLY THE SAME on the 23rd of Octobe
r
1995!  The astonishing arrogance of Ms. Balogh lies in the fact that she is
not even cognizant (because of her amazing naivete) of her unbelievable
arrogance!

I am afraid, I have to bring attention of readers to the sad fact that
"historian" Ms. Balogh apparently has never heard of even EXPLICIT
REVOLUTIONS (called e.g. "velvet revolution" of 1989 in Prague), which were
totally unarmed (as far as the masses were concerned) and not only
successfully overturned the government, but amounted to a TRUE REVOLUTION,
as they (the Czechs, I mean) did truly complete a "change of the system"
starting with their famous unarmed "velvet revolution".

I further regret to have to bring attention of readers to the additional
sad fact that "historian" Ms. Balogh is apparently completely unaware of
the most fundamental basis of democracy that the masses have not only the
absolute right, but the DUTY of overthrowing the government is they don't
like it. Of course, since Ms. Balogh is not a citizen of the USA, she
cannot be blamed for not knowing, that e.g. even in the USA the law is
broken only at the point when masses (or anybody, for that matter) would go
about overthrowing the government BY FORCE or by other UNLAWFUL ACTS.
Anybody can (and should) overthrow the government BY PEACEFUL AND LEGAL
MEANS if dissatisfied with it. This is the true meaning of democracy.
It does not even have to be an "election", as the 94 elections when the
American People overthrown the democratic rule of BOTH HOUSES OF CONGRESS.
In fact, the head of government, Mr. Nixon was "overthrown" exactly in a
peacful and legal fashion (without elections, and without arms).

Anybody calling for ARMED "events" on 23rd of October, 1995 (as Ms. Balogh
explicitly claims, using the word "ARM" repeatedly) therefore would clearly
break the law -- while peaceful demonstrations clearly WOULD NOT.

Of course, the Baloghs are running totally scared even in Yale (and you
can imagine how scared are those Baloghs who actually live in Hungary!).
Their fear is obvious; a COMPLETELY LEGAL MASS REVOLT could get "out of
hand" as quickly and easily in 1995 as it did by about 9-10 P.M. on the
23rd of October 1956. At that time, Gero and Comp. weren't much afraid --
their arrogance was based on their belief that with their tyranny holding a
grip on Police, Army, AVO [KGB], and 100,000 Russian troops INSIDE HUNGARY
behind them, they are completely immune to "mass revolt".

Ms. Balogh in 1995, (having witnessed in 56 how easily, within hours,
the "grip" of an evil system collapsed bringing down Peto Sr. high ranking
AVO [KGB] officer & comp.) knows full well, that TODAY the "grip" of SZDSZ
(with Peto Jr.in the SZDSZ lead) is actually MUCH SHAKIER than it ever was
in 1956. She is much more scared today than Mr. Gero was in 1956, although
Ms. Balogh is ALREADY thousands of miles away! We, against the SZDSZ-
imposed "Burundi course", however, are actually much more confident that
the Budapest of 1995 is CLOSER TO REPEAT THE 1989 "VELVET REVOLUTION" OF
PRAGUE (without arms) than to resorting to the armed-type of revolution of 56.

FREEDOM FIGHT OF 1956 HAD TO BE MILITARY. YOU CAN ONLY FIGHT TANKS WITH
TANKS, WITH MOLOTOV COCKTAILS AS A DEFAULT WEAPON. FIGHT HAD TO BE  A R M E
D.

FREEDOM FIGHT OF 1995 IS FINANCIAL. YOU DON'T NEED ARMS, THANK HEAVENS.
YOU CAN FIGHT BANKS BY (1) SIMPLY REFUSING TO PAY. MOREOVER, THIS FIGHT NOT
ONLY IS "UNARMED" BUT IS ALSO  T O T A L L Y   L E G A L (in fact, the most
legal of all legal procedures), IF  (2) YOU SUE AND  T H E R E F O R E
PUT A STOP (MORATORIUM) TO RE-PAYMENTS.

All you need is the political will to do so.

And you can muster that "will" by mass-demonstrations, demanding exactly that.
And even in a pale semblance of democracy, the will of an overwhelming
majority IS COMPLETELY LEGAL. In fact, it amounts to what Hungarian
Constitution solemnly declares as the absolute right of "masses to exercise
supreme power through their representatives, OR DIRECTLY".

So be it.

 (Tony Pace) wrote:
>>>Would anyone know about the same in Hungary?

deleted

>It may indeed be difficult to revive considering the course established
>by Hungary's School Law of 1907, which in Article 17 emphasized that the
>entire educational system must concentrate on forming and strengthening
>the student's awareness of belonging to the Magyar nation,
>while Article 39 urged the elimination of everything from school life
>that could recall any relationship with any non-Magyar nationality,
>furthermore, Hungary's Minister of Education was quoted by the emminent
>Norwegian author Bjornson Bjornstjerne for having declared in Parliament:
>"I will make it impossible to teach for those teachers, who refrain from
>making the children into good Magyars. The principle, that in this land
>only the Magyars are masters, applies for every citizen of this state."
>
>(Bjornson Bjornstjerne, 1832-1910, Count Albert Apponyi)
>Library of Congress Call Number: DB919 .B55

It was surely a big historical mistake and horrible injustice. The question is
now: Is any of the members of the minority responsible for that injustice, and
has the slovak or any other gouvernement the right to revenge this act after 80
years ?
If yes, than I understand the steps made against the school system of the
minorities.
In my opinion it is unrigt (off course others may think, it's all right) and
on the other hand it may lead to new and new "revenges".

Maybe we could post this article to bit.listserv.hungary too, they somebody
there could have access to the documents cited (e.g. The school law of
Apponyi).

                              Stefan Godo
                              CHTF Slovak Technical University
                              

DARREN E PURCELL wrote:

I grew up under the Reagan years thinking I would
: probably die on a field invading Eastern Europe and then watching a
: neutron bomb go up and saying my prayers in the remaining seconds.

You grew up in the Soviet Union?


--Greg Grose

Stefan Godo writes:


>>furthermore, Hungary's Minister of Education was quoted by the emminent
>>Norwegian author Bjornson Bjornstjerne for having declared in Parliament:
>>"I will make it impossible to teach for those teachers, who refrain from
>>making the children into good Magyars. The principle, that in this land
>>only the Magyars are masters, applies for every citizen of this state.
>>
>>(Bjornson Bjornstjerne, 1832-1910, Count Albert Apponyi)
>>Library of Congress Call Number: DB919 .B55
>
>It was surely a big historical mistake and horrible injustice.

However it has not been acknowledged there as such, nor have the minority
representatives been permitted to take their places in the Parliament yet.

>The question is
>now: Is any of the members of the minority responsible for that injustice,

Seems to me that collective guilt is certainly out of the question,
rather the issue of contention would appear to be whether bilingual
education offers a real alternative. This reminds me that the only
opportunities for the Slovak minority students in Hungary to study
in the Slovak language since the early '60s has been bilingual education
with the Slovak language taught only as a second language.

Laszlo Kovago's book Nemzetisegek a mai Magyarorszagon (Ethnic Minorities
in Today's Hungary), Budapest, 1981, presents that in a half-dozen
hungarian bilingual schools Slovak was instructed in history, geography,
Slovak as a second language and literature, singing and phys. education,
however the Slovak language was taught in only a couple of Gymnaziums
and only as a second language, with Hungarian as the primary language.

All disclaimers apply, not speaking for Ford.

>It would be shameful for anybody, but particularly deplorable for someone
>claiming to be a historian to intentionally misrepresent facts.
>
>I challenge Eva Balogh to prove her repeated statement that "call to arms"
>has been issued for 23rd of October, 1995.

Ms. Balogh is a known and recognized professional historian.
A call to arms was issued verbally around 10 p.m. on the Museum Circle in
Budapest, on October 13, 1956. The demonstrators, following the opening of
fire on the people situated on the Brody S. street, went to certain depots
and factories to obtain arms. Others disarmed soldiers who went to the aid
of the besieged security forces inside the radio building.

Whether we like or not the current government of Hungary was elected by the
majority of the voting citizens. Today there is democracy in Hungary and
the government can be replaced  only via the ballot box or if the
government resigns because it feels that they no longer enjoy the
confidence of the people. Those of us who believe in democracy and care
about the future of Hungary were proud of the people of Hungary who
rejected in 1994 both the communists and the neo-fascist Csurka-gang.
Prof. Peter I. Hidas, Ph.D., historian
Montreal

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

Sorry if this is a wrong newsgroup for such postings...

I look for a companion to rent an apartmnet together in Budapest from
January, 1996. If you are interested, want know detaild etc., please
write me directly to:

szia,
Anatoly

(Csurka)

        Dear Dini,
>correct me if i am wrong tamas but didnt csurka himself work for the
>communists?
        - yes, no, perhaps.  Csurka took part in the 56 Revolution, on the
same side as Ms. Balogh, i.e. the revolutionaries side.  (I was mentioning
Eva for two reasons.  First, to indicate how messy things got in Hungary in
the last 40 years: you could have started anywhere and ended up anywhere.
Second, because I think that on a personal level  --  not in peer-reviewed
science  --  he has just as much right, NO MORE, NO LESS, to interpret
"his 56").  After the Revolution Csurka stayed in the country and was thrown
in jail.  Before being released, he was forced to sign a paper that he will
be an informer of the infamous III/III of the "Belugyminiszterium", which
meant the promise to spy on his friends, colleagues, etc.  No one has ever
seen this paper, still we can accept this as a fact, since Csurka himself
admitted it, after being blackmailed by then-prime-minister Antall.  I.e.
so far the answer to your question is YES.  --  However, Csurka claims
that he never delivered any reports.  This sounds strange, but if it is
true, the answer to the question is NO.  Or PERHAPS?  I am inclined to believe
his version, i.e. that he did *not* submit reports.  (I know this is not a
politically correct statement since nowadays you are supposed to dismiss
and denounce anything Csurka ever did or said or else you yourself are
labeled as one of his followers, an antisemite, a fascist, etc.)
The reason why I tend to believe him is because no one ever came up with
a single report signed by him.  Communists were meticulous archivists,
so if Csurka sent any reports, they would have been stored in the archives
at least until 89.  Tampering?  Theoretical possibility, but Csurka and his
friends never came even close to the III/III archives so they had probably
no chance to change or steal any material stored there (if they had, they
could as well have stolen the original "beszervezes"; these things hunt
your conscience and you would do anything you can to get rid of them).
On the other hand these archives were run and/or controlled all the time
by his arch-enemies, who had quite some interest and motivation already in
early 1990 to discredit him.  --  You may want to know that those who were
supposed to safeguard these archives did such a great job that by now the
archives are completely looted, most of the material "disappeared", probably
quite selectively  (of course nobody is responsible or accountable for that,
either), so I think by now one should be fairly sceptical about any new
"evidence" emerging.

>Perhaps it is he who should be punished...
        - yes, perhaps.  But please read my original posting once again:
what I wanted to say is that *had his opponents accepted* the legislature
he advocated, it could have led to the ultimate irony (and definitely the
ultimate moral high ground) of eventually nailing *Csurka* using the very
same laws he wanted to enact.  Now his opponents (in this case most of the
Hungarian Parliament) in their infinite wisdom refused to pass this law,
even in a watered-down version.  They know it, why.  (And I think I know
it too but I keep this knowledge to myself.)

>who is to blame... and most importantly, who is "without sin" and is fit
>to throw the first stone
        - well, it is a carefully planted misconception (or let me be less
polite: a disgusting lie) that basically no one was "without sin", and anybody
with a halfway decent IQ can tell you who's political interest is to spread it.
Actually, I have hard times keeping my temper when I hear it.  (But I'm still
trying :-))  If someone told me that there were *too many* informants, colla-
borators, etc. and you shouldn't expose Hungarian society to this shock,
I would disagree, but at least this is something I would be willing to
discuss.  --  Please check East Germany, which took the opposite route.
Yes, there were many more informants of the STASI than anybody suspected.
Yes, there were tragedies, tensions, name-calling, furthermore friendships
broke up after the revelations (friendships??? what kind of???); no smooth
sailing but as far as I know the society absorbed this shock reasonably well.
Their numerous problems have completely different roots.

        Tamas Toth

To Balogh Laszlo's question about  a better or more successful country than the
USA, Constantin Donea replies:
>Try Germany!
I wonder what he means. Other than being successful (almost totally) in the
execution of the "final solution", all their successes are due to first being
beaten into democracy by the allies and then being financed into economic
success by the Marshall plan.
Farkas D. Gabor