On 31 May 1996, Law Student wrote:

>   To complete Mr.Marius Iacomi's brief reply, you will find in Maramures 
> county, too, an impressive lot of "Coman" names suggesting the dispersion 
> of the ancient Cuman (pecenegi) tribes. The same phenomenon around the 
> Bucharest city...
> 
>     Cheers, Valerius M. Ciuca.

Make up your mind: is either the Cumans or the Pechenegs. Since
these two people were historically separated by more than 200 year you
cannot have them both "dispersing" in the same time. Even if both were
Turkish tribes, Pecheng was never an alternative to Cuman.

This reminds me of another similar mistake: "Sintana de Mures" culture is
not Gepidic but Gothic.

Regards,

Liviu Iordache

 (Dan Pop) writes:

>What happened to the hundreds of thousands of Romanians whose villages
>and towns remained to Hungary after WWI?  

Hundreds of thousands? Are you sure?
-- 
+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------------------+
| Wolf Rackebrandt |  | http://www.snafu.de/~lupus/ |
+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------------------+

 (Dan Pop) writes:

>Who borrowed the word from whom is irrelevant.  

Ah.

>You didn't follow the argumentation, did you?  The name of an ancestor
>was Lupu (a common Romanian name, derived from "lup", which is wolf in
>Romanian), then it was magyarized to Farkas, then Farkas was
>transliterated to Romanian as Farcas, because its owner was Romanian.

Yes, that is ofcourse possible.

>At Bucharest University I had one Romanian colleague named Farcas and
>one (Transylvanian) Hungarian colleague named Farkas.

This example, though, does not support your point.
-- 
+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------------------+
| Wolf Rackebrandt |  | http://www.snafu.de/~lupus/ |
+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------------------+

In article >, 
 says...
>
>George responds to Tamas:.
>
>>|| On the other side, in your interpretation it seems as though
>>|| the Austro-Hungarian empire biggest problem would have
>>|| been the Romanian question of Erdely. This is not true. That time
>>|| Romania was an insignificant  little asian country somewhere
>>|| behind the Carpathians not long before just a dirty turkish
>>|| fiefdom. 
>>|| No one cared of Romanians because they were so
>>|| unimportant and harmless from the empire's point of view.
>
>>Then why did the K&K gov't (along with Ferenc Joska) oppose Moldavia's & 
>>Walachia's fusion around 1859?
>
>Starting with the early 18th century the Romanians of Transylvania
>were in fact a major concern for the leading Habsburg statesmen. Thus,
>Leopold I and his advisers had long recognized the importance of
>Romanians as a  means of checking the centrifugal tendencies of the
>Hungarians. This is why the  initiative for a Uniate Church in
>Transylvania came from the court of Vienna.
>
>At the end of the 19th century "the insignificant little asian
>country" was not considered by Vienna neither unimportant nor
>harmless. In 1883, following Romania's dissatisfaction with the
>unpopular treaty of Berlin, Bucharest searched a defensive alliance
>with Germany. It was only because of Habsburg's persuasion that
>Bismark insisted that the primary understanding, to which Germany
>adhered, should be with Vienna.
>
>Moreover, at the end of the Balkan Wars, Romania's position strongly
>improved as prestige and strategic position,  German diplomats urged
>on Vienna to ameliorate the position of the Romanians in Transylvania,
>the national conflict in that area being the major disagreement
>between Romania and her allies and the reason for which the Romanian
>government had begun to separate itself from the Triple Alliance.
>Acknowledging the severity of the problem, Bertchtold, the Habsburg
>foreign minister, sent Ottokar Czernin, a prominent Habsburg
>statesman, to Bucharest, and put pressure on the Hungarian government
>to begin negotiations with the Romanian National Party of
>Transylvania. Unfortunately for the Habsburgs, as commented by the
>British representative in Budapest, the few concessions made by the
>Hungarian government "amounted to nothing."
>
>Therefore, one can easily conclude that the Habsburg empire was paying
>considerable attention to Romania. Actually, several historians, such
>as Paul Schroder and Barbara Jelavich, have considered that the part
>which concerned the Romanian affairs played a major role in
>influencing the Habsburg decision to settle the 1914 Serbian challenge
>once and for all, at all costs. In the long run, the cost was
>tremendous, especially for Hungary, and the blame belongs entirely to
>the Hungarian leadership and its unwillingness to sacrifice the
>narrow-minded idea of a homogeneous Hungarian state. There is a vital
>lesson here to be learned for present-day Romanian leaders.
>
>Regards,
>
>Liviu Iordache
>
Hi guys.

just lookking at all these funny arguments.

Let's end them once and for all.

Hungary and Romania belong to ICELAND

Hrafn Gylfi Franksson

In article >, Tudor  > wrote:
>
>  Recent research has proven that the word was used beginning with
>the 5th century b.Ch. in Altai- Ural area. It was pronounced lhâkhő dűshoo
>and at first was denominating the local sword dancer.

Are you sure it wasn't belly dancer?  ;-)

Joe

Liviu Mircea Iordache  > wrote:
>
>Isn't Kemenece purely Hungarian meaning something related to "oven"? In
>any case, is a very subjective sound similarity.

Yes, kemence is an oven of a sort, but I don't think "kemenes" is
related to it.  Frankly, I don't even know what it means originally.
I figure it must be an old word, out of use by now.  But maybe some other
Hungarian might know and lets us in.  I, too, am interested in it.

>Yeah, but maybe you are a Sonics' fan and since the Bulls will trash them
>very soon you'll need something to keep you busy until the pain subsides
>:-) 

Well, I don't care much for the Sonics lately.  "DA BULLS" are fine with
me.  ;-)

Joe

 (Laszlo Katkits) writes:

>>Still unbelievable, to call a town *...BERG*, since it
>>means *HILL* and the town is actually situated in a valley and without
>>any hills around with name Clusen/Clausen/Kolozs or anything similar.
>                  ---------------------------------------------------
>Exactly as above. The name *Felek* does not remind me to *Clusen* in
>any way. But if you find any similarities between these two names,
>please let me know, you know I'm the *boy* who's always prepared to
>learn. Even from you.

Really? Was the town in German evr called "Clusenberg"?
-- 
+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------------------+
| Wolf Rackebrandt |  | http://www.snafu.de/~lupus/ |
+------------------+-----------------------+-----------------------------+

Peter Szaszvari > wrote:
>"Van valamilyen kerdes, megjegyzes?" hangzik a szokasos kerdes, 
>mire a nyuszi remegve:
>"Eeee... csak azt szeretnem kerdezni, hogy nem-e lehetne eeee... 
>kihuzni?"
>"Miert is ne!" kozli a vampir vallat randitva, es egy lenduletes 
>mozdulattal kihuzza az utolso bejegyzest.
>
>(Most lehet rohogni, de vigyazzunk, oldottan, szivbol!)

Az ilyesmit mi regebben favicceknek hivtuk.  De jo!

PJ

Istvan Szucs > wrote:
>What I fail to understand is how the comment in
>parentheses is relevant, or what do you have against
>Demszky's role as the mayor of Budapest that would prompt
>you to add a comment of such style and vulagarity.

Vulgarity?  Are you nuts?  This guy probably never uttered a vulgarity
in his life.  What was vulgar in his post?  Just that you didn't like
its message?  Figures ...

Joe

May I present the Cultural Continuum Concept


The Cultural Continuum Concept encourages the actualisation 
and integration of traditional knowledge within the development of 
a strategy in matters of the environment.

In the field of environment, the Cultural Continuum Concept has 
been designed to facilitate the identification and development of 
links between the contemporary and the traditional knowledge of 
people soliciting assistance.

I suggest the use of this concept in environment for three basic 
reasons:

- Matters of the environment are matters of perception, values and 
culture. The development of environmental awareness in industrial 
societies has generated conflicts and has greatly modified 
behaviours. The subject is highly sensitive.

- An environmental framework will be efficient if the people 
occupying the ecosystem accept it and take charge.

- An environmental framework must not generate ruptures 
between the participants and the community either vertically 
(ancestors, elders, adults, adolescents, infants) or horizontally 
(women and men, trades, ethnic groups, religious denominations).

Contemporary environmental knowledge must be integrated as a 
continuity with traditional knowledge. For example, nomadism 
was one of the first Approach in Resources Management aimed at 
respecting the Support Capacity of the Ecosystems and at 
generating an Optimal Sustainable Yield. If alternatives to 
nomadism have to be developed, a continuity in terms of 
conservation can be achieved. Preoccupation with continuity 
allows the adaptation, the enrichment and the linkage of 
contemporary knowledge with tradition, the main constituent of 
cultural identity and social fabric.

Rabindranath Tagore, (Nobel Prize winner for Literature in 1913 
and advisor to the Indian education authorities) expressed similar 
concerns when promoting the sustainable development of a distinct 
and open Indian society in harmony with the outside world.

People must develop their own environmental framework in order 
to environmentally assess projects and models proposed by 
outsiders within a procedure that includes their perceptions and 
values. This endeavour by the ecosystem's occupants is the best 
guaranty that interventions by consulted countries will blend 
within the biophysical, cultural and societal environment.

For discussion please contact me personally at

To learn about me,
http://www.igs.net/~leclercp

"John B. O'Donnell" > wrote:

>aGreg E Hersh wrote:
>> 
>> Hey,
>> everyone should respond at least few times with
>> 'my check is in e-mail'.
>> This will crash their e-mail.
>> 
>> - Greg -
>> 

Take that!!!!!

>> SB Productions ) wrote:
>> : Attention Fellow 'Net Users:
>> 
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>> : one of the decade's best business opportunities.  Your chance at making
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>> : programs we surveyed that was so.
>> :       It's simple, read the report and educate yourself, BEFORE you
>> : dive into something that you may be uncomfortable with.  This report
>> : gives you the knowledge you need to make a hearty decision.
>> 
>> : Order your copy of the Business Report!
>> : Send $13 (US Funds) to:
>> 
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>> : C/O Publications
>> : 3422 West Hammer Lane, Suite C-284
>> : Stockton, CA  95219-5493

>And what would I do with them?


                 S.L.G.

       How can I 'Look before I leap' 
       if 'He who hesitates is lost'?

In article >, Nagy Peter > wrote:
>
>Bennunket meg a Magassagos mentsen meg az olyan eszement szivarok
>vergozos elkepzeleseitol, mint a tieid, draga Jozsi.  Te, ugy tunik a
>fentiek alapjan, eleg siman dutyiba vagy a bitora ("ahol nem arthatnak
>tobbet", gratulalok!)  vagnal mindenkit, aki nem pont a te fuledbe
>huzza.

Eszement szivarok, vergozos elkepzelesek?  Mi az, magadbol indulsz ki?
Ugyan mar emlits meg parat az en vergozos elkepzeleseimbol?
Vagy ez is egy olyan csusztatas akar lenni, mint hogy "Horvath Balazs
lovetni akart"?  (Mert ugye, megis, mit jelenthet az, hogy "nem
arthatnak tobbet"?)  A lehetseges valaszokat kovetkeztesd ki a
mostani FORUM szamok "lovetes" temaju cikkeibol.
>
>Milyen furcsa! hogy a demokracia tobbek kozott eppen attol az ami, hogy
>olyan alakok szolasszabadsagat garantaljuk, akik ezt - ha hatalomra
>kerulnenek - tolunk javareszt megvonnak.

Hat ez jo!  Te es "elftarsaid" tamogatjak Odor cenzurazasat, s erre van
pofad egy ellene szot emelot azzal vadolni amiben te magad vagy bunos!
Tipikus foxi-maxi dialektika.  Bravo!

Pannon J.

In > Laszlo Katkits 
ipnet.se> writes:

>Dan Pop wrote:
>
>> 
>> Who borrowed the word from whom is irrelevant.  The point is that Lacatus
>> and Lacatusu are Romanian names (related to a Romanian common noun)
>
>No. And NO!!! You are wrong!!! 

The number of exclamation points is not a good substitute for knowing what
you're talking about :-)

>Lacatus is just the fonetic of LAKATOS,

Lacatus is, most likely, derived from lakatos, but it's pronounced
differently.  The two 'a' leters are actually a-breve and they represent
a sound with no Hungarian equivalent (as far as I know).  So, lacatus is
not the phonetic of lakatos, but this isn't very important in the context
of this discussion.

>there LAKAT means lock and the (o)s means *the one who does* /very approximati
vly/
>Just as ASZTALOS means carpenter, there ASZTAL means TABLE, and BA'DOGOS and 
>VASAROS and some hundred more. DO NOT TRY TO SAY, that the Roman language uses
>the same.... If you don't really know, please don't say it. Then it will not h
urt.

As a native speaker of Romanian I feel quite qualified to say that
"lacat" means padlock in Romanian and "lacatus" means locksmith.  Yes,
believe it or not, I do really know.  If you still have doubts, you can
always use a dictionary.

>> >And what does that word mean in Romanian?  For "Farkas" means "Wolf" in
>> >Hungarian and is a very common family name.
>> 
>> You didn't follow the argumentation, did you?  The name of an ancestor
>> was Lupu /SNIP/
>
>Why? Why was the oroginal name Lupu? You just state it! How can you
>state that everyone with name Farkas or Wolf or Ulf were Romanians with
>the name Lupu?

But this in _not_ what I stated.  I was talking about people with the name
Farcas, Farcasu, Farcasiu, not about Farkas, Wolf or Ulf.  A Hungarian
named Farkas had no reason to transliterate his name to Romanian.  Only
a Romanian whose name was magyarized would have done this.

Besides, Liviu Iordache produced an alternate etymology for the Romanian
name Farcas, based on forks rather than on wolves, which doesn't involve
any magyarization and/or transliteration from Hungarian.  Feel free to 
buy his theory.

>And later magyarized or germanized or swedishized or what
>ever. Your statement is completely  ungrounded. 

Considering that the vast majority of Hungarian families named Farkas 
before 1918 have exactly the same name today, my statement in not
completely ungrounded.  I don't claim that my theory covers 100% of the
cases, there are examples of abuses committed by the Romanian local
authorities, when names were Romanized one way or another, but it's really
easy to distinguish between a Hungarian whose official name is Farcas from
a Romanian with the same name.  However, all the Farcas's I know are
ethnic Romanians.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

On 31 May 1996, Istvan Szucs answered to Gyorgy Kadar:
....
> Thank you for that declaration. Actually Mozart's requiem is
> one of my favourite pieces, and I am sorry I won't be around
> on the 29th to listen to it. It sounds like the plan is
> similar to the performance of Beethoven's 9th a few years
> ago. What I fail to understand is how the comment in
> parentheses is relevant, or what do you have against
> Demszky's role as the mayor of Budapest that would prompt
> you to add a comment of such style and vulagarity.
....

Dear Istvan,
 I am sure, if you read Gyuri's letter more carefully you are going to
figure out what he intended to tell you. Probably all of us agrees on the
everlasting beauty of Mozart's last mass ( Mozart died before its
completion, his student Franz Suessmayer finished the composition). Also,
probably most of knows about the - false :-) - circumstances under which
the music was written, from Peter Shaffer's drama "Amadeus" (or at least
from the movie "Amadeus" by Milos Forman). And Istvan, considering
yourself a Mozart lover, I am also sure you are familiar with the term
"requiem" - music for the dead, music for a mass to celebrate the dead. As
it is, at least in my oppinion, this music is the most morbid and
outrageously inappropriate selection to celebrate a nation's 1100th
birthday. (as opposed to the mentioned 9th of Beethoven, which is based on
Shiller's poem - Ode to Joy). But anyway, are not there enough beautiful
Hungarian musical pieces for the celebration? I would have some ideas. 


Gotthard
--
mailto:
http://granite.ciw.edu/~gotthard/

Laszlo Katkits  > wrote:
>
>Why? Why was the oroginal name Lupu? You just state it! How can you
>state that everyone with name Farkas or Wolf or Ulf were Romanians with
>the name Lupu? And later magyarized or germanized or swedishized or what
>ever. Your statement is completely  ungrounded. 

I suspect Romanians are considering that name a "natural", due to the
legend of Romulus and Remus.  But still, that Lupu -> Farkas -> Farcas
transformation theory deserves a gold, IMHO. ;-)

Joe

In article >,  > wrote:
>
> Just for fun, there is a town called "Comanesti" in the same area with
>Onesti (birthplace of Nadia Comaneci). That shows that the root "Coman"
>is rather common in that region - so it is more plausible to think that
>Comaneci was derived from Coman than from Kemenes.
> In fact, Nadia herself said a couple of times that the rumours were un-
>justified.

OK, OK, I am convinced.  It does not take much for me to put that old
rumor to rest, anyway.

Thanks for the info.

Joe

Alexander N. Bossy' > wrote:
> 
>Oh, isn't that nice.  Whenever Hungarians do anything bad, it can be
>dismissed as "trends (habits) back then", whenever Romanians do anything
>bad it can be contrasted to "modern, enlightened practices".  I hate to
>puncture your illusions, but most of Europe was significantly more
>civilized in the 19th century than it has been in the 20th. 

Well, in some ways yes, in other ways no.  In the area of human and
civil rights (and that's what we've been arguing about), the 19th
century was way behind.  Just think of colonization by the great powers
of much of the Third World, the exploitation of workers during the
Industrial Revolution, the poverty of the peasant/serf class, the status
of women, and of people of different sexual orientation (I had to add
this, didn't I? ;-), the illiteracy rate due to lack of public
education, so fort and so on. 

You can't seriously argue that in these areas 20th century Europe is not
better off than the 19th.

Joe

Peter Szaszvari > wrote:
>
>I am Hungarian (having a blue passport only or more precisely two 
>of them due to an administrative misstake). I was born an raised 
>in Hungary. Only the last 5 years I spent in Switzerland but 
>sooner or later I 'll go back home.
>(I learnt all my English in Switzerland too, so accept my 
>apologies :)

Mea culpa, mea culpa!  I just realized there are two Szaszvari-s around
here.  The one I was thinking of (George?) is often posting on the HUNGARY
list, from a UK address, I think.  Just what are the odds for two people
with that relatively rare last name to converge in here?  That's why I
kept the first names out of focus.  No wonder I was so confused by the
two of you!  The politics evident in the posts of these two guys are
quite different.

So once again: sorry for the mistaken identity.

Joe

Peter Szaszvari > wrote:
>
>Mi a sajtoszabadsag? Teszemazt irok egy cikket egy ujsagnak es az 
>nem jelenteti meg, akkor nincs sajtoszabadsag?

A problema ezzel az, hogy egy interneti hozzaferesi lehetoseg nem ujsag!

>Miert kellene a bp.-i intezetnek tamogatnia Odor ur levelezeset?
>Mindenki irhat amit akar, de hogy a terjeszteshez kotelezo lenne 
>a felteteleket keszen adni, az nem tartozik a sajtoszabadsaghoz.

Nem kell tamogatnia, de ha megengedi masok politikai
velemennyilvanitasat, akkor az Odoret is engedniuk kell, amennyiben meg
akarjak tartani legalabb a latszatjat is annak, hogy nem cenzuraznak.
Persze, ha azt mondjak ki, hogy csak munkaval kapcsolatos ugyben szabad
hasznalni az accountokat, akkor az fair lenne.
>
>Odr ur elofizethet a szamos mo.-i internetszolgaltato 
>barmelyikenel egy kis nacionalista propagandaterjesztesre, es 
>senki nem szolhat egy szot sem. De miert kellene ingyen 
>biztositani ehhez neki a lehetoseget?

Mert a te velemenyeddel szimpatizaloknak is biztositjak.
>
>Hol van a tanyasi paraszt sajtoszabatsaga, akinel meg villany 
>sincs nemhogy internet. (Figyeljuk meg a demagogia hatasat a 
>konnymirigyekre e mondatban :)

Ez jo, de kevered a szezont a fazonnal.  A paraszt nem a cenzura miatt
nem juthat hozza az Internethez, nemdeugyebar?

>Ebben az ertelmezesben sajtoszabadsaga csak annak, volna aki 
>rendelkezik egy ujsaggal. Adjunk tehat mindenkinek penzt egy 
>ujsag grundolasara?

Megintcsak: Internet account nem ujsag.  En inkabb postahoz
hasonlitanam, ami kikezbesiti az ujsagot.

>Ha nem dolgoznek akademiai intezmenynel valoszinuleg en is 
>sajnalnam a penzt internetes elmenckedesre, de nem kiabalhatnek, 
>hogy ezzel vege a sajtoszabadsagnak.

Ja, es el tudom kepzelni hogy fel lennel haborodva, ha a Tamas irhatna
onnan ide, te meg nem.  Csak azert, mert tobbunknek az o szovegei jobban
tetszenek, mint a tied.
>
>Vegul teljesen komolyan nem szeretnem ha Odor ur eltunne a 
>"palettarol" es ez vonatkozik a Pellionisz et al. csoportra is.
>A gyozelem teljesen erdektelen, a harc szorakoztato.

Now you're talkin'! ;-)

Pannon J.

Gabor Barsai > wrote:
>
>Maybe they looked for Turkish babes?

There you go again ...  Talking about having one track mind ...  ;-)

Joe

In article > Wolfgang Rackebrandt,
 writes:
>>"Lacatus" is locksmith in Romanian

>Yes, its origin is the Hungarian word 'lakatos'.

Which is interestingly coming from French (loquet). 
The word was borrowed long ago, in 11-12th century
together with several other locksmiths words..
That time several Hungarian town was established
with French/Wallon habitants like Eger.

Otherwise the Lakatos is a very tipical Gipsy name
in Hungarian.

Tamás

Domnule Liviu Mircea Iordache,

    Este adevarat,in a sa De administrando imperii, Constantin al VII-lea 
Porfirogenetul relateaza despre istoria popoarelor de origine slava si 
turcica. In cazul acestora din urma, despre cumani, pe de o parte si 
despre pecenegi, pe de alta parte. Nimeni nu i-a confundat. Autorul la 
care m-am referit si care  a oferit cea mai bogata sursa de informatii 
despre aceste popoare (de fapt, triburi nomadice) a trait in secolul X. 
In secolul urmator, insa, dupa  exact 150 de ani de la moartea lui, la 
portile Constantinopolului s-a consemnat disparitia puterii militare si a 
structurilor de conducere proprii triburilor de pecenegi, ca urmare a 
infrangerii suferite in conflictul cu armata Bizantului condusa de insusi 
Imparatul Alexius I, in coalitie cu TRIBURILE NOMADE DE CUMANI(tot de 
origine turcica). 

    A urmat un proces de dispersie a pecenegilor, alaturi de un altul, de 
asimilare, a multora dintre ei, triburilor de cumani.

    Abia in sec. XIII, Regele Bela al IV-lea al Ungariei a acordat azil 
unui numar de aprox. 15.000 de cumani (care l-au urmat pe printul Barc si 
au acceptat baptizarea) dupa ce isi  asumase titlul de "Rege al 
Cumaniei"(inca din 1227 A.D.). Multi dintre cumanii care s-au asezat, 
gratie  respectivului azil in bazinul carpatic, erau, in fapt, pecenegi 
asimilati. Fireste, alte asezari de pecenegi (neasimilati) existau, in
urma infrangerii din 1090-1091 (la care m-am referit) in spatiul panonic 
si transilvan, unde migrasera. 

    De unde provine dispersia la care m-am referit? Chiar inainte de 
invazia mongola in Ungaria, printul Kuthlen al cumanilor (care, mai 
inainte, organizase fara succes rezistenta rusilor in fata acelorasi 
mongoli) a fost tratat de catre unguri ca fiind un periculos "aliat" si a 
fost asasinat. Atunci (1240 A.D.), cumanii au parasit Ungaria. Nu pentru 
mult timp, deoarece, dupa numai cinci ani, Stefan al V-lea (fiul Regelui 
Bela care s-a si casatorit cu o printesa cumana; fiul lor, Ladislau al 
IV-lea a continuat aceeasi politica de asimilare a cumanilor si 
pecenegilor care nu s-a incheiat, de fapt, decat cateva secole mai 
tarziu).
    Iata, deci, ca acea mixtura "cumani-pecenegi" la care m-am referit a 
existat in realitate, nefiind o inventie a mea. Stiti, probabil, foarte 
bine ca, pe de alta parte, asezari numeroase de pecenegi s-au infiintat 
pe teritoriul regatului Ungariei ulterior infrangerii suferite in fata 
Bizantului.Nu,doar, Otetea si Berindei se refera la acest fenomen, ci si 
Vlad Georgescu, dupa cate imi amintesc. Desigur, fenomenul este mult mai 
complex decat cel sugerat, sumar, aici, dupa cum, literatura istorica 
este contradictorie si-n legatura cu asezamantul de la Santana de Mures 
la care, de asemenea v-ati referit.

    Apreciez, in orice caz, spiritul de acuratete stiintifica degajat din 
postingul domniei voastre, in ciuda invitatiei, cam "condimentata", de-a 
ma trezi...

    Servus! Valerius M. Ciuca.

Wolfgang Rackebrandt wrote:
> >Exactly as above. The name *Felek* does not remind me to *Clusen* in
> >any way. But if you find any similarities between these two names,
> >please let me know, you know I'm the *boy* who's always prepared to
> >learn. Even from you.
> 
> Really? Was the town in German evr called "Clusenberg"?
> --

Wolf!  (Or maybe by some: LUPU? :-))

It was NOT ME claiming the existence of the CLUSENBERG! It was me to
react on it, because I always new Clausenburg or Klausenburg. BURG and
not BERG, Clausen and not Cusen. However this name seems to figure in 
some elder books. So you are just adressing the wrong target. Please
get informed before you get involved!

Regards:
//Laszlo

In article >,  (Liviu
Iordache) wrote:

>  (Dan Pop) wrote:
> 
> >The name of an ancestor
> >was Lupu (a common Romanian name, derived from "lup", which is wolf in
> >Romanian), then it was magyarized to Farkas, then Farkas was
> >transliterated to Romanian as Farcas, because its owner was Romanian.
> 
> The Romanian Lupu was MAGYARIZED to Farkas (I guess all those agents
> in charge of implementing the Apponyi Laws were using a  pocket
> edition of the Hungarian-Romanian dictionary ) but the Hungarian
> Farkas was TRANSLITERATED into Romanian Farcas (why wasn't changed
> back to Lupu? The pocket edition of the above mentioned dictionary had
> been exhausted). Now, this is what I call argumentation! I like it!
> Especially that subtle nuance: in the first stage  is magyarization,
> in the second one is plain transliteration.

My father frequently tells the story of a friend of his who spent years
trying to get his name de-magyarized. It took about 15 minutes to get it
magyarized in the first place, something that he didn't want in the first
place. 

As I understand it transliteration is a fairly benign practice and easily
reversible, magyarization (and romanization if it comes to it) is 
translating by meaning, not by sound and for some strange reason the 
Romanian government historically has not made it easy to change back.

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The only net copy of the Romanian constitution in Romanian
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, victims of communism memorial, 
and an URL minder!

In article >,  > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs > wrote:
| >What I fail to understand is how the comment in
| >parentheses is relevant, or what do you have against
| >Demszky's role as the mayor of Budapest that would prompt
| >you to add a comment of such style and vulagarity.
| 
| Vulgarity?  Are you nuts?  This guy probably never uttered a vulgarity
| in his life.  What was vulgar in his post?  Just that you didn't like
| its message?  Figures ...
| 
| Joe

Nope.. if he said in a letter that for this and that reason
he disagrees wit h how Demszky as a mayor acted that would
have not been vulgar. The way he expressed that and how he
connected it with the concert that is scheduled to take
place i considered vulgar and ad hominem.

JL Borges refers to a Faustian event in a stpry? What was it, please?

drh

You can actually try the software with no strings attached (no 60 seconds 
limit).  Search on infoseek (http://www.infoseek.com) or your favourite 
search service for "cracks."  Be warned, however that this might be 
illegal in your jurisdiction, and if it is, you shouldn't do it.

It is very sad that someone promoting a product that gives the Internet 
such a wonderful use, has to resort to spamming.  I wonder if this has 
VocalTec's blessing.

Cheers,
-- 
   _           _         _   |Andrei Zodian          |"In fact, nothing is
  /_\  _ _  __| |_ _ ___(_)  |University of Toronto  |being said that has not
 / _ \| ' \/ _` | '_/ -_) |   |been said B4"  Terence,
/_/ \_\_||_\__,_|_| \___|_|  |http://www.ecf.toronto.edu/~zodian | 190-159 BC

In article >,
 > wrote:
| Laszlo Katkits  > wrote:
| >
| >Why? Why was the oroginal name Lupu? You just state it! How can you
| >state that everyone with name Farkas or Wolf or Ulf were Romanians with
| >the name Lupu? And later magyarized or germanized or swedishized or what
| >ever. Your statement is completely  ungrounded. 
| 
| I suspect Romanians are considering that name a "natural", due to the
| legend of Romulus and Remus.  But still, that Lupu -> Farkas -> Farcas
| transformation theory deserves a gold, IMHO. ;-)
| 
| Joe


I was under the impression that we know for a fact that that
happened. That there was this guy Lupu whose name got
magyarized to Farkas and then Latinized to Farcas...

In article >,  (Liviu
Iordache) wrote:

> George responds to Tamas:.
> 
> >|| On the other side, in your interpretation it seems as though
> >|| the Austro-Hungarian empire biggest problem would have
> >|| been the Romanian question of Erdely. This is not true. That time
> >|| Romania was an insignificant  little asian country somewhere
> >|| behind the Carpathians not long before just a dirty turkish
> >|| fiefdom. 
> >|| No one cared of Romanians because they were so
> >|| unimportant and harmless from the empire's point of view.
> 
> >Then why did the K&K gov't (along with Ferenc Joska) oppose Moldavia's & 
> >Walachia's fusion around 1859?
> 
> Leopold I and his advisers had long recognized the importance of
> Romanians as a  means of checking the centrifugal tendencies of the
> Hungarians. This is why the  initiative for a Uniate Church in
> Transylvania came from the court of Vienna.

And wasn't that one of their biggest mistakes in the area. We Uniates turned
out to be one of the biggest causers of these "centrifugal tendencies". 
It was the byzantine rite Catholics who educated and founded the entire
intellectual basis for the case for Transylvanian independance from the
empire. 

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!

In article >, "P.S."
> wrote:

>                         FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS

>                Q: Are my calls safe?
> 
>                Internet Phone sends and receives audio directly from the 
>                 other user, without going through the Internet
>                Phone server (the server is only used to let users locate 
> each other). This means that your Internet
>                Phone calls are very hard to trace.

This really assumes that people are not trying very hard to trace them. 
The safety provided here is the safety of the man in the crowd. If you 
are not being looked for then you are pretty anonymous. If they are trying
to find you then you have no protection whatsoever.

A better solution might be PGPphone which not only transmits with the same
"in the crowd" security but also encodes the traffic so even if someone
is out to get you they cannot listen in without more computing power then
a casual eavesdropper possesses. It even protects against esoteric attacks
such as "man in the middle". Best of all PGPphone is as far as I can tell
absolutely free as are all the rest of the PGP products.

DB

-- 
The Romanian Political Pages               http://haven.ios.com/~dbrutus
Now available: The Romanian constitution in Romanian, 
an URL minder
Coming soon: An expanded Ilascu section, and victims of communism memorial!

In article >,
Gotthard Saghi-Szabo  > wrote:
| On 31 May 1996, Istvan Szucs answered to Gyorgy Kadar:
| ...
| > Thank you for that declaration. Actually Mozart's requiem is
| > one of my favourite pieces, and I am sorry I won't be around
| > on the 29th to listen to it. It sounds like the plan is
| > similar to the performance of Beethoven's 9th a few years
| > ago. What I fail to understand is how the comment in
| > parentheses is relevant, or what do you have against
| > Demszky's role as the mayor of Budapest that would prompt
| > you to add a comment of such style and vulagarity.
| ...
| 
| Dear Istvan,
|  I am sure, if you read Gyuri's letter more carefully you are going to
| figure out what he intended to tell you. Probably all of us agrees on the
| everlasting beauty of Mozart's last mass ( Mozart died before its
| completion, his student Franz Suessmayer finished the composition). Also,
| probably most of knows about the - false :-) - circumstances under which
| the music was written, from Peter Shaffer's drama "Amadeus" (or at least
| from the movie "Amadeus" by Milos Forman). And Istvan, considering
| yourself a Mozart lover, I am also sure you are familiar with the term
| "requiem" - music for the dead, music for a mass to celebrate the dead. As
| it is, at least in my oppinion, this music is the most morbid and
| outrageously inappropriate selection to celebrate a nation's 1100th
| birthday. (as opposed to the mentioned 9th of Beethoven, which is based on
| Shiller's poem - Ode to Joy). But anyway, are not there enough beautiful
| Hungarian musical pieces for the celebration? I would have some ideas. 

OK... I am sorry.. my bad.. I missed that. I understand that
you feel that Requiem would be inappropriate as the
celebration of the 1100-th annirersary of what precluded the
birth of Hungary. While I do understand how and why you feel
about this I disagree. I think that a performance of Requiem
on Heroes' square by the statues of the "7 vezer" and other
historical heroes is in line with honoring them, and thereby
honoring the 1100 anniversary of their achievements and or
nationhood.

Istvan

Please join us in commemorating
                    __Hungary's 1,100 Year Anniversary__
                                  and the
                 __1956 Revolution's 40th Year Aniversary__
                           Saturday, June 15, 1996
                               4:00 to 9:00 p.m. 
                         State of Illinois Building
                          100 West Randolph Street
                             Chicago, Illinois

	Our formal program of poetry, prose, song, music and dance can
   be seen from 5:00 to 7:00 p.m.  Cultural, artistic and commercial
   exhibits by families and organizations will be on display from 4:00
   to 9:00 p.m.

	There will be a raffle for two round-trip tickets to Hungary.
   Dinner and drinks will be provided by the _Paprikash_ restaurant.
   There is no admission fee and parking is available at 177 North Wells
   for $5.00.

Hope to see you there!  :)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^