Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Copyright (C) HIX
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: Sophistry (mind)  42 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: Sophistry (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Sophistry (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: Sophistry (mind)  26 sor     (cikkei)
6 Buying Hungarian books (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
8 The Hungarian swimming team (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
9 Salaries at the Magyar Radio (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Cultural Superiority (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
11 40 years ago; Canada, 1956: Part 4. (mind)  209 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: $grwFTL s (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
13 Re: The 1700s (mind)  102 sor     (cikkei)
14 Are Americans dumb? (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Are Americans dumb? (mind)  38 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: Culture (mind)  36 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Sophistry (mind)  17 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind)  33 sor     (cikkei)
19 Change of e-mail address (mind)  30 sor     (cikkei)
20 Hungarian email pointer (Version: 0.90, Last-modified: (mind)  96 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: Sophistry (mind)  35 sor     (cikkei)
22 $grwFTL s (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
23 Nobody is dumb (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,
>Dear Bandi,
>At 07:01 PM 9/23/96 GMT, you wrote:
>>Mr. Szaszvari,
>>If you are going to pretend to be formal, you ought to refer to Eva
>>Balogh as Dr. Balogh, not Ms.

>        Thank you very much for writing, but I really don't care how Mr.
>Szaszvari addresses me as long as he writes about me in a decent manner.
>However, Mr. Szaszvari has an ugly, vindictive soul, and all his writings
>concerning me are dripping with hatred and personal insults. Therefore, I
>simply try to ignore Mr. Szaszvari as if he didn't exist.
>Eva Balogh

Gosh, Eva, I'm sorry, but it isn't personal. I only attack anything on
principle. When you frequently insulted others from an assumed position
of superiority you don't actually have, I made sure you knew about it.
When you post something worthy, I applaud. Some want this list to be
a private mutual back slapping club, but I ain't game: I prefer frank
and vigorous discussion, even on the most sensitive and difficult
subjects. Should anyone find my frankness *impolite* and not suitable
for this list then please feel free to form another one your list lynch
mobs and get me barred from bit.listserv.hungary! I'm sure you'd feel
absolutely justified.

As far as ignoring me is concerned, Eva, you do that all the time with
anyone who you feel has exposed your argument, as though you've been
humiliated or something... It's the perception of your fragile ego...
as your rather sad comments testify to: *dripping with hatred*;
*ugly, vindictive soul*; *personal insults*. Methinks you've never
engaged in frank discussion in your entire life (as I was trying to
hint at), but then that's your problem. Good luck in sorting it out.
NB: You know, I like you a lot really! ;-)

Lots of Love from George


George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy ** Commodore=64...ICPUG ** NW London CC
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >,  (George
Szaszvari) writes:

>Yeah, okay, Sam, man....since you put it so nicely.

Thank you. I love you, man!
Sam Stowe

"I remember the book depository where
They crowned the King of Cuba..."
-- They Might Be Giants, "Purple Toupee"
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Stowewrite wrote:
> In article >,  writes:
> >The Hungarian culture is part of and transcends in to the Western
> >Civilization and, has no contradiction with its values. This is not true
> >pf all cultures.
> Over 400,000 Hungarian Jews rounded up and shipped to death camps or
> simply murdered in situ in Hungary would probably disagree with you on
> this one. If they weren't dead, that is.

Yes, they were murdered and they were murdered when Hungary was in the
hands of those germanofils who rejected the values of the Western
Civilization, ... back in the XIX'c. This will hapen any time

> > In one extreme the Serbs were never part of it others as
> >the Germans have deliberately rejected it in the XIX-c.
> >Modernism to
> >which American cultural elite subscribes in a large proportion is also in
> >revolt with the value structure of the Western Civilization. With my
> >knowledge there is no other common value system of the western cultures
> >but what we call Western Civilization. Thus I do not understand in what
> >else one could transcend. Most of the cultural elite of North America
> >could transcend in a chaos or as is fashionable to be called  an
> >Experiment or series of experiments.
> Bullshit trailing off into incoherence again. Modernism is almost
> exclusively a European movement and has been a bit player, at best, in
> American culture. Postmodernism has had more of an impact on American
> intellectuals, but no further than deluding some university English
> professors into believing that their discipline is a lot more important to
> the society and culture than it really is.
> Sam Stowe
> >

You are wrong,  Modernism  is more than a literary current.

Albert Albu
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

On 24 Sep 1996 04:57:00 GMT,  (George Szaszvari)

>Ought I? Since Ms Balogh doesn't use the title *Dr* in her signature,
>you can go and (very respectfully and formally, of course) jump in
>the lake....otherwise, if there's something in the posting you'd like
>to address, then please do so (it's okay, this is the realm of free
>speech).  Cheer up, you sourpuss :-)

I love you, man!

> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 09:53 AM 9/24/96 -0400, Eva Balogh wrote:

>Dear Bandi,
>At 07:01 PM 9/23/96 GMT, you wrote:
>>Mr. Szaszvari,
>>If you are going to pretend to be formal, you ought to refer to Eva
>>Balogh as Dr. Balogh, not Ms.
>        Thank you very much for writing, but I really don't care how Mr.
>Szaszvari addresses me as long as he writes about me in a decent manner.
>However, Mr. Szaszvari has an ugly, vindictive soul, and all his writings
>concerning me are dripping with hatred and personal insults. Therefore, I
>simply try to ignore Mr. Szaszvari as if he didn't exist.
>        Eva Balogh

This is very unfair.  Since when does criticism equal hatred and insults?
George Szaszvari doesn't see eye to eye with some of your notions, ideas or
sensibilities, and, to prop up his criticism, he uses colourful and
humourous language.  It might make you uncomfortable but that doesn't mean
it's hatred.

Joe Szalai
+ - Buying Hungarian books (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Does anyone know of a good, reliable book supplier (in Hungary or
elsewhere) who would be prepared to send us books published in Hungary
selected by us? We are an academic library collecting material in the
humanities and social sciences, in Hungarian and other languages. The main
qualities we are looking for are speed, efficiency and a reasonable
exchange rate. I'd be most grateful for any recommendations.

John Freeman

John Freeman                              Tel.  0171 637 4934 x4017
Sub-Librarian                             Fax   0171 436 8916
University of London                      Email 
School of Slavonic and
  East European Studies
Senate House
Malet Street
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:

>That is a wonderful example of the creation of a "general impression"
>(as Eva Balogh means is) about Hungary. Sam Stowe (sorry for the "r")
>should shy away as his achievement is compared to this one.
>                                                            Sz. Zoli

My grasp of Hungarian history is substantially firmer than this.
Sam Stowe

"Baby, will you eat snack crackers wearin'
that, uh, special outfit you bought?"
-- Southern Culture on the Skids, "Camel Walk"
+ - The Hungarian swimming team (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Only in Hungary! The association of Hungarian swimmers was in big
trouble a few days ago. It turned out that the composition of the Hungarian
Olyampic swimming team bore no resemblance to the actual results of
pre-Olympic trials. The secretary and the president cheated: they changed
the final results. Huge upheaval. The minister of interior in charge of
sports was furious and was asking for the head of the president and
secretary guilty of the fraud. They resigned. But then the board, consisting
of 60 people, got together and reelected the same men to head the
association. Who cares about such minor problems as fraud? Obivously, nobody.

        And while I am reporting on odd things. A few months ago we talked
about a certain law suit brought against a pub owner in Pecs, who refused to
serve a Gypsy. Well, the first time in history such discrimination was found
illegal and the pub owner was fined! I bet he will never do anything like
that in his life! And also, what a deterrant to all who would be inclined to
discriminate! (Yes, I am sarcastic.) He was fined 5,000 forints!!
Approximately $33.00!

        Eva Balogh
+ - Salaries at the Magyar Radio (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

You may recall that I mentioned an interview with the new president
of the Magyar Radio (MR) and that there are 93 directors, editors, heads of
departments at an institution which is practically bankrupt. Here are a few
figures concerning salaries. The new deputy director makes 546.083 Ft/month.
The two other deputy directors make 294.541 Fts/month. Ten directors at the
TV make 366,391 Fts./month and 30 heads of departments 190.000 Fts./month.
The prime minister's salary is only 270,000 Fts./month.

        Americans who are used to fabulous salaries of anchor men and women
at American tv companies might not find these figures too high. But I think
that these salaries should rather be compared to salaries at National Public
Radio or TV, where some well positioned people make no more than
$30-40,000/year. And that in the United States and not in Hungary where a
doctor's take-home pay is around $25,000 Fts./month.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva S. Balogh wrote:

> the original as it appeared in the Washington Post on September 19. Here is
> the particular passage of the article written by Donald Blinken, the U.S.
> ambassador to Budapest and Alfred Moses, the U.S. ambassador to Bucharest:
> "Historic rivalry between <B>Hungary</B> and Romania dates back at least a
> thousand years to the Magyar migrations from Central Asia. This led to
> Hungarian domination of the Carpathian basin, including modern-day
> Transylvania, now in Romania, which was part of Hungary until 1919, when the
> Treaty of Trianon put an end to 300 years of Austro-Hungarian dominance in
> the region."
>         And surely this is historically inaccurate. There was certainly no
> rivalry between Romanians and Hungarians in the ninth century and it is not
> even sure where the Romanians were situated at this time. It is unfortunate
> that ambassadors sent to different parts of the world know relatively little
> about the history of the region they serve. Whether it is worth making a
> huge issue of it, I am not sure. Perhaps a letter to the editor of the
> Washington Post would do. I am not a regular reader of the *Washington Post*
> and it is possible that someone already corrected the above. If not, it was
> certainly a good undertaking from someone from the Hungarian Lobby.
>         Eva Balogh

Eva, I wish you could read Romanian in order to understand
its reverberation in the press and news groups and that from
a Romanian point of view the statement is a fact is the truth.

When two American ambassadors and a senator state's in the same terms,
aided by an army of help then the statement is a fact. To undo this
you will have to reach back to Trianon.

Albert Albu
+ - 40 years ago; Canada, 1956: Part 4. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


Friday, 26 October 1956.
Fighting spread to provinces. Rebels aided by Hungarian troops, claimed
control of Western Hungary. Revolutionary delegations called on Premier
Nagy to press demands for a more representative government, free elections,
equality of status for Hungary, withdrawal of Soviet troops and economic

Calendar of Events in Hungary prepared by the staff of the Department of
External Affairs for use in connection with the Special Session of the
Canadian House of Commons: November 26, 1956.(1)

        On that day the fighting in Hungary continued unabated.  The
international community began to pay close attention to events in Budapest.
Canadian-Hungarians viewed their old country more sympathetically and
intensified pressure on their government to get involved in the affair.

        Canadian press headlines showed enthusiasm for the revolution:
"Most of Hungary Under Rebel Control" (Montreal Star(2)), "Russia Without
Mask" (The Winnipeg Free Press(3), "Massacre in Budapest" (The Globe and
Mail(4) but the inside pages reflected the deep suspicion of communist
eastern Europe. The Winnipeg Free Press  warned that the rebel students in
Hungary were the tools of Titoist leadership. The Montreal Star  warned
that "there is no doubt of the outcome [of the Hungarian uprising]. The
limit of Moscow's concession is 'Socialist equality,' not freedom. Whatever
has to be done to suppress the rebellion will be done...A tightening of the
reins is to be expected."  Pearson showed little interest in the events
that took place in a far away country. When he addressed a group of
journalists that day he warned them about threats to freedom of the press,
a rather irrelevant topic for the moment, but  made no statement about
Hungary. The journalists did not ask him  about Canada's position on this
matter (The Montreal Star).(5)

        The silence was deafening. Only the minorities of East European
origin cried out. The prime minister's secretary informed St Laurent about
the receipt of 32 telegrams begging for action on behalf of a free
Hungary.(6)  The members of the congregation of the First Hungarian
Presbyterian Church in Toronto held a general meeting on that day. They
sent a telegram to the prime minister asking him to protest  the Russian
army massacres  in Hungary at the Security Council of the United States.
The congregation suggested that Louis St Laurent request the Security
Council to compel the Russians to evacuate Hungary.(7)  The Port Colborne
Hungarian Roman and Greek Catholic Association also requested the prime
minister to turn to the UN.(8)"The Western democracies, apparently
unconcerned and without protest, speechlessly watch the trampling underfoot
of human rights and dignity by the communists. Not realizing that if our
people fall the gate is open for the communists to the west....We are
asking you Mr. Prime Minister to raise your voice in the name of humanity,
against this tyranny and condemn the Budapest and Moscow communists for
their deeds," protested and pleaded the Hungarian Canadian Christian
Association of Niagara Falls, Ontario.(9) They asked their local member of
parliament, W.L. Houck, to forward their demand to the prime minister's
office.(10)  Other Hungarian associations sent telegrams  of a similar
vein.(11)  The Canadian Citizens of Lithuanian Origin in Toronto was the
only non-Hungarian organization that made representations on behalf of
Hungary.(12)  All this activity on behalf of a "communist" nation made
certain civil servants wary, regardless of the humble style of the
telegrams that mainly requested diplomatic action.

        The Department of Citizenship and Immigration prepared a list of
Hungarian organizations in Canada identifying them either as pro- or
anti-communists.(13)  The Department of External Affairs informed the RCMP
about a planned demonstration of the Hungarians before the Soviet Embassy.
They did not want to upset the Russians.  In the eyes of some, Hungary was
not only part of the communist empire but also the last ally of Nazi
Germany during the Second World War. When the Toronto-Hungarians  placed a
wreath for the dead of Hungary at the  Toronto City Hall Cenotaph, Canadian
veterans protested against this "desecration" by the members of a former
enemy nation.(14)

        Meanwhile, in New York the U.N. representatives of France, the UK
and the USA met secretly at the initiative of the United States and agreed
to launch  a new propaganda campaign against the Soviet Union. They
prepared a letter requesting the President of the Security Council to
convene an urgent meeting for the consideration of an item entitled, "The
Situation in Hungary."(15)  Despite Pearson's dislike for the State
Department's initiative that he characterized as "unfortunate," once the
major powers had made their move Pearson felt obliged to react.(16)
Domestic pro-Hungarian activities, despite their limited nature, also
prompted him to respond.

        T. Wainman-Wood, the prime minister's secretary, informed St
Laurent that Pearson was ready to call on him in the afternoon concerning a
statement the Secretary of State was planning to make on Saturday.(17)
Earlier that day W.H. Agnew of the Citizenship Branch informed Pearson's
office that Hungarian-Canadians were planning to demonstrate in front of
the Soviet Embassy on Sunday, October 28. A Hungarian delegation, the
representatives of the National Hungarian Federation, was pressing for an
interview with Pearson. He agreed to receive them.(18)  The Secretary's
office was mobilized for the domestic phase of Pearson's counter-offensive.
Preparations were made to provide background material on Hungary to Pearson
for his Saturday speech at the Toronto Rotary Club.  A night telegram was
sent to each of the protesting Hungarian organizations.(19)  The revolution
received Canadian approval. Then Pearson and his advisors turned their
attention to the United Nations.

        Pearson preferred to let Hungary work out its own affairs
internally and provide no excuse for further intervention by the Soviet
Union.  He had delayed any open condemnation of Soviet action in Hungary
as long as he could. He  had recently contributed to the thawing of the
Cold War when he visited the Soviet Union. His staff worked intensively for
months on wheat deals with that country as well as with Poland and
Hungary.  Neither did he wish to undo his own achievements nor disturb good
relations with the non-aligned members of the Commonwealth whose positions
often contained strong pro-Soviet components. Until the Hungarian
Revolution there had been a warm relationship between Canada and India.
This special relationship had been supported by Canadian public opinion and
particularly by liberal and left-wing intellectuals.(20)  The Indian
representative at the United Nations held the view that "the eastern
European states had no right to national freedom and independence since the
Soviet Union had a right to have satellites on its western borders."(21)
Once the American initiative was made, however, he supported the USA, the
country he considered the pivot of Canadian security.  He was now ready to
clarify Canada's position on the Hungarian question to his UN delegation
and Canada's other representatives abroad. External Affairs sent
instructions to the Permanent Representatives of Canada at the United
Nations ordering them to protest the Soviet use of force, the violation of
human rights and of the Hungarian Peace Treaty of 1947 to which Canada was
a signatory. Pearson warned his diplomats that only constructive steps
should be taken. The American propaganda campaign must be toned down. The
Security Council should keep the situation under review or form a
fact-finding committee. He continued:

We are interested in this idea especially if India and Yugoslavia take an
active part and would see some advantages in inviting USSR to join in
sponsoring this or amended proposal although they would probably reject it.
If they did by any chance accept, it might provide only foreseeable context
in which Hungarian leaders could talk officially to the West. In any case
we would hope U.N. action might facilitate an end to the
fighting...However, if USSR would participate fact finding committee might
have more than propaganda value.(22)

Pearson wanted the fighting in Hungary to stop and to obtain Moscow's
recognition of the new Budapest regime. At that point the recently
negotiated commercial treaty between Canada and Hungary could have a firm
basis despite the revolution.

1 NAC, RG 2, 90-91/154, Box 47, File H-17-1 (b).

2 26 October 1956.

3 Ibid.

4 Ibid.

5 Ibid.

6T.W.W.'S [T.Wainman-Wood] Ottawa,Memorandum for the Prime Minister,
26 October  1956, NAC, RG 2, 90-91/154, Box 108, File H-17-1.

7Reverend Calma [Kalman]  D. Toth's  telegram to the PM, Toronto, 26
October 1956, NAC, RG 2, 90-91/154, Box 108, File  H-17-1.

8 James Majors, Port Colborne, Ont. to PM, 26 October 1956, NAC, RG 2,
90-91/154, Box 108, File H-17-1.

9Telegram to PM, Niagara Falls, Ont., 26 October 1956, NAC, RG 2,
90-91/154, Vol.123, File H-17-1.

10 NAC, RG 2, 90-91/154, Vol.123, H-17-1.

11Dr. Francis Sas, Grand Committee of Hungarian Churches and Societies of
Montreal, Rev. F.W. Metzger, Canadian Hungarian Reformed Ministerial
Association, Vancouver, Gabor Temesvary, Canadian Hungarian Federation,
Toronto, Geza Kertesz, Hungarian Self Culture Society, Welland, the
President of the Hungarian Helicon, Toronto, K. Torgey, Hungarian Sport
and Social Club, Toronto, Honfitars [Hungarian journal], Toronto, NAC, RG
2, 90-91/154, Vol.108, File H-17-1.


13W.H.Agnew to T.Wainman-Wood, ibid.

14A.S. McG., Office of the Secretary of State for External Affairs to The
Under-Secrectary of State, Ottawa, NAC, RG 25, 84-85/150, Box 111,File
8619-40, part 2; from January 2, 1952, to October 31, 1956.

15Telegram from the Canadian Permanent Mission in New York to External
Affairs, 29 October 1956, NAC, RG 25. 84-85/150, Box 111, File 8619-40,
part 2:  from January 2, 1952, to October 31, 1956.

16Telegram from External Affairs to  London, Paris, Washington, New Delhi,
Canberra, Belgrade, Pretoria, Wellington, New York; approved by
L.B.Pearson, CNA, RG 25, 84-85/150 Box 111, File 8619-40 part 2: from
January 2, 1952, to October 31, 1956.

17T.W.W.'s Memorandum for the Prime Minister, October 26, 1956, NAC, RG 2,
90-91/154, Vol.108, File H-17-1.

18A.S. McG., Office of the Secretary of State for External Affairs, to the
Under-Secretary of State, 26 October 1956, NAC, RG 25, 84-85/150 Box 111,
File 8619-40 part 2; from January 2, 1952 to October 31, 1956.

19Memorandum for the Minister, 26 October 1956, NAC, RG 25, 84-85/150, Box
111 File 8619-40, Part 2; from January 2, 1952, to October 31, 1956; NAC,
RG 2, 90-91/154, vol.108, File H-17-1.

20Reid,  op.cit., 126.

45 Ibid.,  88.

22Telegram from External Affairs to  London, Paris, Washington, New Delhi,
Canberra, Belgrade, Pretoria, Wellington, New York, approved by
L.B.Pearson, 26 October 1956, NAC, RG 25, 84-85/150, Box 111, File 8619-40,
part 2: from January 2, 1952, to October 31, 1956.

Peter I. Hidas
+ - Re: $grwFTL s (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:26 PM 9/25/96 +0200, Janos Zsargo wrote:
>Kedves Eva,
>you wrote:
>>doctor's take-home pay is around $25,000 Fts./month.
>                                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>Can you tell me what kind of animal is this ??? ( :-) )

        Sorry, sorry. Of course, I meant 25,000 Fts. No dollar sign.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: The 1700s (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 08:25 AM 9/23/96 PDT, Jeliko wrote:

>One of the issues in comparisson with the west related to the
>Encyclopedists. Well, it is true that the French were ahead, but have any
>of you read their texts. The one on Hungary is particularly interesting
>because it is rather confused and that section was written by Jaucourt who
>was never even close to Hungary or any other part of Eastern Europe.
>Some examples: "the Bulgars, the Hungarians, and the Wallachians were
>neighbors in Asia as they are in Europe." "The language of Hungary is a
>dialect of Slavic."

        Why are you so surprised? The Hungarians themselves didn't know the
origin of their own language until the end of the eighteenth century; i.e.,
after the publication of the famous Encyclopedia of Diderot.

>At least the Hungarian encyclopedia from 1699 is more factual in its
>description of France.

        I'm afraid but that makes me laugh a bit. It reminds me of some
Canadian journalist who complained that while the Canadian papers are full
of news on the United States, there are few articles on Canada in U.S.
papers. Do you know how few people ever visited Hungary before the
nineteenth century? Mighty few. Hungary seemed to them like the end of the
world and from Western European perspective it was!

>Yes, there was some backwardness in the area after the Turkish expolsion,
>but the extant western descriptions are not really "accurate". Please
>remeber that this was the time when in several western countries there was
>also significant backwardness both economically and culturally.

        I think you ought to read some of the books of Berend-Ranki duo on
comparative economic history of Eastern Europe to get a fair idea what we
are talking about.

>In Scotland
>and Ireland the English were keeping miners and peasants perhaps even more
>oppressed than was the case for the peasants in Hungary. No surprise that
>extensive emmigration took place to the colonies.

        This is not the kind of "backwardness" we are talking about. But
general, low level of economic development. We are talking here about the
time when the industrial revolution is just beginning in England and Western
Europe. And look at Eastern Europe and Hungary.

>The rebuilding of Hungary
>after the Turkish occupation and the more than a century of warfare was an
>enermous task, which was not helped by the Habsburgh exploitation. In spite
>of thatand almost surprisingly there was also cultural development.

        I really would like to hear a list of Habsburg
exploitations--please, come up with them. I find it very difficult to
believe that a supranational royal family would exploit its own lands--I
guess because they hated the Hungarians. Right?

> The
>reformed chirches used Hungarian as the language of service and that by
>itself was an accelerator for the improvements, because those churches
>maintained contact with western reformed church dominated countries on a
>much broader basis than that of the RC (hierarchy only) with Rome via

        Accelerator for improvements? In what sense? That they used
Hungarian as language of worship? The Hungarian language was in very poor
shape in the 1700s and it was only at the end of the century, beginning of
the nineteenth that the so-called "Reform Period" began, which started with
language reform. Thousands and thousands of new words were introduced in
order to be able to express more sophisticated philosophical concepts or
technical vocabulary. Hugh Agnew wrote a whole book on the Czech language
reform period. So, he might want to say a few words on that topic. And
Hungary was worse off than Moravia-Bohemia.

>If anything the Habsburgh domination in the XVIII century created a
>more dismal situation than that which existed in the XVII century.

        So, you think Hungary would have been better off under Turkish
occupation, just like Serbia or Bulgaria until a century later? Is that what
you are saying?

>The more
>I look into it the more I am convinced that if Rakoczi won, the economic
>and cultural development of the country would have been better.

        It is one of those "ifs" in history which, generally speaking,
cannot be answered. But in this case I am almost certain that it is not the
case. And one more thing which we all must keep in mind--unfortunately
Hungarians are apt to forget it. Without belonging to the Habsburg Monarchy,
historical Greater Hungary might have collapsed way before the end of World
War I. At the time of the Rakoczi Rebellion, we had no censuses but it is
fair to assume that Hungarians constituted a minority of the population.
Perhaps no more than 35-40 percent. And there were already signs of
reluctance on the part of the Slovaks and Romanians to support the Hungarian

>I do not feel that Hungarian culture is superior to any other, but I do not
>suffer from an inferiority complex either,

        Neither do I. But I have no difficulty to comprehend that Hungary
was way behind western Europe all through its history and I don't blame the
Habsburgs for it either.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Are Americans dumb? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Well, well, well...I read all the postings, and hey! I am delighted!!!
There was not one message accusing Eva of lying or anyone else of any wrong
doing.  Bravo!

I am just a simple undergraduate here in Indiana, in a Christian school.  This
is my 2nd year in school, and 3rd in the States.  And I love it here!  I think
the people are great!  They are not sarcastic, they are not trying to prove
that they are better than you, and you can talk to them about pretty much
anything...  I remember coming back this summer on a flight from Paris to
Chicago I met a very nice lady she was  from Grand Rapids, MI and she's a
speech therapist.  She has two boys, she's raising them alone.  We covered
a broad spectrum of subject from human psychology to the reasons she divorced.
We talked about Hungary, and its role in the fall of the German wall, we
covered issues of 1956, and she asked me questions when she wasn't sure what
happened.   We also discussed God's place and His importance in life.
The other day I talked to a lady on the internet I can't recall her name now,
but she was a Bahai follower.  It was a pain to even get out a reasonable
statement from her.  When she had to leave the conversation I asked her why was
she so defensive and she couldn't answer me.  She said that I was talking
nonsense.  I asked a couple of people participating in the conversation if I
was, they said that I wasn't...

The reason that I'm bringing up these two specific examples is that I came
across a few postings that discussed the "dumb Americans" issue.  I feel that
Americans are not dumb what so ever.  Anyone who makes such statement is
got to be really arrogant.  I believe that in Hungary we are all used to the
same thinking, the whole country was literally locked from the flow of new
ideas where Americans were living free, and had the opportunity to set
priorities in life.  These priorities were inherited through generations.
Priorities like family, God, Country.  Where Eastern Europeans have all
forgotten about these issues, and rather spent there time teaching there kids
how to outsmart others to gain something from it.

This is my personal belief.  My comment doesn't mean that I dislike Hungary,
it rather emphasizes the importance of being a little bit more open minded
before criticising other nations.  By the way I love Hungary, but I feel sad
when I look around and see how people live.

Well.  I must say farewell for tonight.

Vitaly Franko

219 456 7015 x33330
+ - Re: Are Americans dumb? (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Hi Vitaly,

        So, you resurfaced. Do you remember that you wrote to me about a
year ago, but somehow we lost touch.

At 12:00 AM 9/22/96 -0500, you wrote:

>The reason that I'm bringing up these two specific examples is that I came
>across a few postings that discussed the "dumb Americans" issue.  I feel that
>Americans are not dumb what so ever.  Anyone who makes such statement is
>got to be really arrogant.  I believe that in Hungary we are all used to the
>same thinking, the whole country was literally locked from the flow of new
>ideas where Americans were living free, and had the opportunity to set
>priorities in life...
>This is my personal belief.  My comment doesn't mean that I dislike Hungary,
>it rather emphasizes the importance of being a little bit more open minded
>before criticising other nations.  By the way I love Hungary, but I feel sad
>when I look around and see how people live.

        Of course, you don't think that Americans are dumb because you were
in your teens when you had the opportunity to come to an American high
school and go to college here. You were still open-minded. The trouble comes
when the person is older and after getting here he/she is pretty well
isolated. They don't live with a family like you do and they don't really
get to know Americans well.

        In any case, I am glad that you are still on the Net.

        With best wishes, Eva Balogh

P.S. And by the way, I am also glad that no one called me a liar today.
Calling people liars simply because we don't like what they have to say is a
common defense of those who simply don't want to hear anything which doesn't
fit into their worldview. They also don't seem to be able to distinguish
between lies and innocent mistakes. By the way, Zoli Szekely couldn't find a
worse possible subject for this particular accusation. I find almost
impossible to tell a lie.
+ - Re: Culture (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Zsargo Janos
> writes:

>Well the expression 'culture' has been used in almost any kind of context
>here on this list. Would somebody minds explaining me what these guys
>mean by 'culture'. To me culture means, folk dance, eating habbits,
>customs, etc. I understand that the politics and events can be related to
>'culture', but I haven't got the ability of so abstract thinking that can
>relate the Holocaust in Hungary to my definition of hungarian culture or
>its relation to the 'Europian culture'.

It's not all that abstract. That's the problem. Culture corresponds to the
system of shared beliefs, activities, history, traits and artifacts that
delineates one group of people from another. Culture does encompass all of
the things you mentioned. It also provides psychological boundaries for
self and group identification. I'm sure most of us have heard of  the
social psychologist Kurt Lewin and his channel theory -- that behavior is
a function of the interplay between both psychological and
non-psychological factors. Lewin likened that interplay to a giant river
delta where the river is constantly cutting new channels to the sea. Seen
up close from ground level, those changes seem slow and minimal. From a
mile high in the air, however, we can tell how dramatic they are and how
fast they occur. Culture, perhaps, is the sum total of our group channels.
They do change under the impact of historical circumstance, but unless we
gain some distance from them through critical thought and analysis, we may
have trouble discerning those channels. And they are very powerful
determinants for future action. As such, I think studying them carefully
is worth the effort involved.
Sam Stowe

"Baby, will you eat snack crackers wearin'
that, uh, special outfit you bought?"
-- Southern Culture on the Skids, "Camel Walk"
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "Eva S.
Balogh" > writes:

>However, Mr. Szaszvari has an ugly, vindictive soul, and all his writings
>concerning me are dripping with hatred and personal insults.

Ay, ay, ay, ay! We don't need you and George slashing away at each other
with the long knives. Please, Eva, you are both decent, intelligent people
and you both offer a lot of positive things on the list. I wish you two
would bury the hatchet -- preferrably not in each other's foreheads. Leave
the personal insults, vindictiveness and ugliness to Szalai and me. We're
trained professionals.
Sam Stowe

"Baby, will you eat snack crackers wearin'
that, uh, special outfit you bought?"
-- Southern Culture on the Skids, "Camel Walk"
+ - Re: Cultural Superiority Complex (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear Sam;

At 09:41 AM 9/20/96 -0400, you wrote:

>In article >, Tony and Celia
>Becker > writes:
>>Come on Sam, you can't be starting to sound like me. You have your own=
>> wonderful reputation as the ultimate misogynist curmudgeon to uphold.
>> two aspirin, mix a tom collins--heavy on the lemon--and try again.
>> there, now.  Don't worry, I'll forget I read this all--eventually. :-)
>Cecilia, I could never sound like you. My software won't allow me to post
>such long statements. By the way, I believe you when you say you'll forget
>you read all this. Boy, do I believe you.
>Sam Stowe
>North Carolina -- A vale of humility
>nestled between two towering
>mountains of conceit.

There now!  I knew you could do better.  By the way, which mountain are you?


N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA
+ - Change of e-mail address (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear friends and foes;

Please do not be dismayed or elated as the case may be when you spot an
 "unsubscribe" message from me, as that will be followed by a new "subscribe"
 message.  Sprint in the manner of large sharks gobbled up my network gateway,
 "Portal."  Only this time instead of a small fish it was more like gobbling a
 porcupine.  My husband Tony was up until 3 a.m. this morning attempting to get
 "Eudora" supposedly the most common software communications program in Silicon
 Valley and throughout the West coast to work with Sprint's servers.  I guess
 Sprint is not from the West coast...

I'm still not sure how well it's working as we keep getting periodic system
 crashes and are not sure exactly where they are occurring, or if it's just
 Pacific Gross & Elective Incompetence again.  (PG&E Inc....)  Or it might be
 the latest effort from our neighborhood political-technological Luddite
 harrasser who's also another East European dictator wannabe... It's been a lon
 couple of weeks.

Anyhow, I'm sure eventually I'll be back in the groups if it isn't right away.
 After all, at the least, after this summer, there can't be too many trees left
 for PG&E Inc. to use to fry computer systems, right?


in not-so-San(e) Jose

new address: 

N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA
+ - Hungarian email pointer (Version: 0.90, Last-modified: (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Archive-name: hungarian/pointer
Soc-culture-magyar-archive-name: pointer
Bit-listserv-hungary-archive-name: pointer
Version: 0.90 (beta)
Posting-Frequency: monthly
Last-modified: 1995/11/21
URL: http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/hungarian-faq-pointer

 This document summarizes network-related resources of Hungarian
interest, which are accessible via email. Some of the most readily
available sources of information can be found in the archives of
periodical information postings to Usenet; these documents are commonly
known as FAQs (from Frequently Asked/Answered Questions). Knowing the
name of the file you can retrieve it by sending email to
 with the command "send
usenet/news.answers/<ARCHIVE-NAME>" in the message (without the quotes,
and with substituting the actual name for <ARCHIVE-NAME> in the pattern
shown above) - for example, to get the document described below, use

 send usenet/news.answers/hungarian-faq

 To learn more about the RTFM server just send the command "help" to it
- it will provide step-by-step intstructions on how to use the
archives, on retrieving indexes and so on.

 "Hungarian electronic resources FAQ" is a comprehensive collection
dealing with email, FTP, WWW and other Internet tools; its archive name
is 'hungarian-faq' (and the mail-server command to get it is shown in
the example above).
 If you only have direct access to email then, in order to use the
other tools, you'll need the methods described in "Accessing The
Internet By E-Mail" (Archive-name:
 To get a general introduction to Usenet (with some guides to Internet
as well - and explanation of how they are different, too) see "Welcome
to news.newusers.questions!" (Archive-name: news-newusers-intro).
 For a guide to finding someone's e-mail addresses, see the "FAQ: How
to find people's E-mail addresses" (Archive-name: finding-addresses).
Do notice that it's usually inappropriate to send such blanket requests
to mailing lists; the search tools available give much better chance to
locate addresses sought than posted queries in any case!
 An overview of commercial on-line services in Hungary is available by
John Horvath >
(Archive-name: hungarian/comm-providers).

 The hungarian-faq describes several email lists related to Hungary;
only a brief summary is shown here. Please keep in mind that
subscription requests (and other administrative communications) should
be directed to the server address, NOT to the lists themselves.

 List:  (the HUNGARY LISTSERV list)

 List: HOL (Hungary Online)

 List: hungary-report

 Lists: OMRI-L (Open Media Research Institute Daily Digest)
        MIDEUR-L (Middle European discussion list)

 List: cet-online (Central Europe Today On-Line; email )

 List: CERRO-L (Central European Regional Research Organization)

Server: email to  (Hollosi Information Exchange)
 Lists: HIX is a collection of several separate lists, including
  - MOZAIK, a collection of news items in English
  - various discussion forums in Hungarian language
  - SCM and HUNGROUPS, which are email-accessible archives of the Usenet
    newsgroup soc.culture.magyar and the hun.* national hierarchy,
    respectively; to get a directory listing of these archives (as well
    as that of other HIX lists), send email to  with
    "arch" in the 'Subject:' line. Note that the SENDDOC utility takes
    its parameter from the 'Subject:' of the message (unlike many other
    servers, like the ones described previously, which use the body)!

 Note that this document is available on the
 <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>; homepage for the "Hungarian
electronic resources FAQ" at the HIX WWW-server.
 The latter also provides access for the full FAQ via
 'finger ', and for this brief pointer you are
reading via 'finger ' (notice that you
will likely need to redirect the output to a pager or a file in order
to read it). The Usenet archive name for this document is
 hungarian/pointer .

 Zoli , keeper of <http://hix.mit.edu/hungarian-faq/>;
 <'finger '>
 NOTE: spamsters and bulk emailers see 'X-Policy*:' in the
header for the charges to be imposed for net abuse!
+ - Re: Sophistry (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>        Oh, Zoli! You didn't follow my advice and apologize instead of
>piling my garbage and garbage. I tried to get you off the hook by suggesting
>that you just blame everything on your lack of English. But you don't listen.
>        Eva Balogh
>At 03:45 PM 9/24/96 -0400, you wrote:
>>Someone complained that he/she can not understand my
>>sense of humour. Now, I show you what I mean when I
>>talk about humour (Sam had this piece):
>>> It's "intellectuals" not "entellecuels". The intellectual links between
>>> the Khmer Rouge and French postmodernism have been examined in detail by
>>> academic observers for well over a decade now.
>>Is it not a laugh what makes the sense of authority
>>for guys like Sam? One single magic word is enough
>>for him: "a-c-a-d-e-m-i-c" and he is already on his
>>tummy (hasraesik).

Poor Americans! They even don't speak English :-O  :-O  :-O

*       Lajos Monoki         *
*  NCR Hungary - CSS Szeged  *
* e-mail: *
*  Tel/Fax: +36-62-434101    *
*    Mobil: +36-30-584523    *

"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"
           Edgar Allan Poe
+ - $grwFTL s (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kedves Eva,

you wrote:

>doctor's take-home pay is around $25,000 Fts./month.

Can you tell me what kind of animal is this ??? ( :-) )

+ - Nobody is dumb (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Kedves Eva,

you wrote:

>Calling people liars simply because we don't like what they have to say is a
>common defense of those who simply don't want to hear anything which doesn't
>fit into their worldview. They also don't seem to be able to distinguish
>between lies and innocent mistakes.

This is true, however there is another way to shut people up. Like whenever
somebody tells something not preferable, s/he can be told to go home. Sure
it is unpolite to criticize your hosts, but it does not affect whether you
tell the truth or not. I do not say that for example Z.Szekely was right
in his debate with S.Stowe but it does not mean he was wrong if S.Stowe
'hazazavarja'. Actually Sam prefer this tool as he utilize it regularly. He
used it against me, too, however I have never said anything about the
'inferiority or superiority' of the American culture. I simple did not share
his beliefs in his 'America does things sometimes because that is the right
to do' stuff. In fact my sin was the equalizing those 'rootless' Europians
with America. Well, mea culpea, I just cannot deny that I came from that
'rootless' Europe.