Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Copyright (C) HIX
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 WWI (mind)  51 sor     (cikkei)
2 Re: I am Availabe to work in Hungary (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: The burden's on Durant (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
4 developing science education (mind)  47 sor     (cikkei)
5 America- Great Nation, Great Language (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
6 A response to Gabor D. Farkas (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
7 Re: Bokros the Keynesian is out (mind)  13 sor     (cikkei)
8 Re: Living standards and economic growth (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
9 Re: A few words about many words (mind)  12 sor     (cikkei)
10 Re: Government control (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
11 Re: Hungarian Immigration (mind)  54 sor     (cikkei)
12 Language Rights Conference (mind)  97 sor     (cikkei)
13 Bokros's resignation (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
14 Re: Living standards and economic growth (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: A few words about many words (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: lachs, lox and lazac (mind)  19 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: American is good enough for us! (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
18 Nation states and knowledge (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
19 Darwin in Hungarian (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: American is good enough for us! (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
21 Re: A disabled country (mind)  43 sor     (cikkei)
22 Re: Hungarian prehistory (mind)  103 sor     (cikkei)
23 Re: Magyars, Sumerians, and Uygurs (mind)  139 sor     (cikkei)
24 Only read this if you fancy some light relief... (mind)  127 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: lachs, lox and lazac (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
26 Seeking International Vendors with Bosnian Partners (mind)  102 sor     (cikkei)
27 an apology for sloppiness (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Government control (mind)  24 sor     (cikkei)
29 lachs, lox and lazac (mind)  22 sor     (cikkei)

+ - WWI (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

S. Stowe wrote:

>Undoubtedly, given the conduct of some of the Allies during the Versailles
>Treaty talks, it's easy to think the most cynical worst of their
>leadership. In doing this, you do a grave disservice to the American
>people and to President Wilson in particular. Much as Trianon broke the
>dream of an independent greater Hungary, Versailles broke Wilson's dream
>of a comprehensive peace in Europe. You are not so sure about the motives
>of the American leadership because it's a lot easier to blame a faceless
>international conspiracy for some of the hard knocks Hungary has received
>in this century than it is to accept that simple bad luck -- the country's
>geographical proximity to a belligerent, expansionist Germany in two world
>wars -- and repeated failures in statesmanship -- allowing Hungary to be
>drawn into two world wars as a client of Germany -- led to the
>fragmentation of a greater Hungary.
>The Magyar minorities living in adjacent states are not a result of
>American imperialists somehow stepping in to keep the poor Hungarians
>down. They are a direct result of the failure of Hungary's political
>leadership for most of this century to articulate and implement a
>rational, realistic foreign policy.
>Sam Stowe

Well, Sam, you do not (or do not want to) understand me. I am not blaming
anything or anyone for Trianon, here. Actually I was not talking about Trianon.
I am just interested in the History of WWI and happened to have different
opinion about the participation of US in that war than you have. So do not
try to find my motivation or sensitive point to hurt me (if this is your
intention). It won't work, I am not like those guys at the *Forum* who
can interpret the world History from their hungarian viewpoint only. I
have the feeling that rather you are who fulfilled with stereotypes and

If I do grave disservice to the American people or President Wilson? How or
why ? Because I do not believe that the Germans or Austro-Hungarians represente
the barbarism? Sorry, you may believe it or the US and allied soldiers in the
could believe it, but this does not make it true. I think that would be a
to the german, austrian, hungarian, bulgarian, turkish soldiers who died or
disabled during WWI. As the most people who actually participated in that war
 has already
died, I think its time to have a clearer picture of WWI.

About president Wilson's broken dream. This shows he misunderstood the situatio
in Europe and did not have clear idea about the war he led the US in. This is
 very sad.

+ - Re: I am Availabe to work in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Contact Brown & Root in Houston, they have a large contract with the US
Government to provide logistical support for the US troops in the former
Yugoslavia. If you are a computer expert, God knows, they could use you!
They have been there for several months, and still don't have an e-mail
link to their US offices or to the rest of the world.

Good Luck!

Joseph Udvarhelyi Hill
+ - Re: The burden's on Durant (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> intellectual tools to analyze the regime and thoroughly discredit its
> claims to Marxist-Leninist legitimacy. But most of the rats stayed on the
> ship right up to the end, didn't they Elvtars Durant?

I don't know what you insinuating. As all your responsses are
ending in personal  - and unjustified - insult, I stop
reading your posts.

Eva Durant
+ - developing science education (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Just an illustration how the present heavenly system
develops new initiatives for progress in the future...

(forwarded text:)
> Dear  Friend:
> Tennessee State Representative Zane Whitson has introduced a bill that
> would make it a crime to teach evolution in Tennessee.  The bill,
> labeled HB2972 in the house, and SB 3229 in the Senate, adds the
> following section to the Tennessee Code:
> Section 49-6-1012.  No teacher or administrator in a local education
> agency shall teach the theory of evolution except as a scientific
> theory.  Any teacher or administrator teaching such theory as fact
> commits insubordination, as defined in Section 49-5-5 01(s)(6), and
> shall be dismissed or suspended as provided in Section 49-5-511.
> This legislation is scheduled for consideration by the House Education
> Committee, and the K-12 Subcommittee of the Senate Education
> Committee, on the morning of February 21 -- just a few days from now!
> In our experience, any legislation that singles out evolution reduces
> the extent of instruction in evolution; teachers simply avoid the
> subject.  This legislation is extreme, not only because of the threat
> that teachers will be fired, but because there is no way the teachers
> can obey it, given the matter-of-fact treatment of evolution in
> textbooks.  The real effect of the law would be that evolution is not
> taught at all.  Many NCSE members will want to inform their state
> legislators about their opinion of this law, as well as writing
> letters to editors of local newspapers.  If you are represented by
> Senator Burks or Representative Whitson, the bill's sponsors, it is
> especially important for them to understand that they do not
> represent the opinions of all constituents.
> [ . . . ]
> Molleen Matsumura
> Network Project Director
> ------- End of forwarded message -------
>       Tennesseans should mail  to get further
> information on how to oppose the bill.
+ - America- Great Nation, Great Language (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Regarding Joe Szalai's ridiculous comments on misspellings in American English,
I'm sure he'll want Americans to start incorrectly spelling "tire" as "tyre"
and "civilization" as "civilisation!"

Joe, if you want others to be sensitive to Hungarians and other groups, try
being a little less ludicrous yourself.

Actually, why don't you consider the spelling of "program" as "programme" to be
 French... if you want to be so exact?

- Mark
+ - A response to Gabor D. Farkas (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 11:00 PM 2/19/96 -0500, Gabor D. Farkas wrote:

>Common Joe, let's not split hairs. We are Americans and we use the American
>spelling. Everybody knows that American English is different from British
>English in both spelling and meaning of words.


I was not serious.  Nor was I making fun of Eva Balogh's spelling yesterday.
In fact, there was a ;-) after my comment, but to no avail.  Once some
readers and writers on this list conclude that I'm some kind of Marxist,
Stalinist, utopian, nut case, then it dosen't seem to matter what I write.
They reject it out of hand.  They seem to have a passion for rigidity and
expect the same from others.  I will disappoint them over and over again.  I
intend to make the serious frivolous, and to make the frivolous serious.
It's a great way to expand ones horizon.  It's also a good way to involve
more people in our discussions.  The days when the cognoscenti shared views
with the illuminati are rapidly coming to a close.  Too bad they don't
embrace democracy as easily as they preach it.

Thank you, Gabor, for being civil in your response.

Joe Szalai
+ - Re: Bokros the Keynesian is out (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> >Bokros is out, and I don't expect the government will choose anyone who is
> >any better.

You want someone who complete nationalisation in no time
selling stuff off as quickly as possible, price no matter,
and someone, who'll cut all social benefits, health
and education expenditure even more, than it is.
I think you are looking for someone with suisidal and
sadistic tendencies,
shouldn't be difficult...
Eva Durant
+ - Re: Living standards and economic growth (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> anecdotal story about Mexican living standards are correct--the population
> as a whole doesn't benefit. Some SOMEONE/S DOES/DO.

.. and you seemingly don't really care who.  Also, you dismiss
the part, that it can also still mean further impoverisation
of more people.   If those few "creative" ones are happy,
why should we worry, indeed?
Eva Durant
+ - Re: A few words about many words (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> in this Utopistic nonsense, except perhaps Joe Szalai and Eva Durant.

My responses are usually very short, and I cut re-used texts.
I'm aware, that you haven't read them, as you don't know
what my ideas are, you make them up as you see fit.
I don't want Hungary to repeat foul capitalist mistakes, like
it was repeating foul stalinist ones before. I have as right
to convey my worries, as you have yours.  I don't think I
hindered anybody's contribution.
Eva Durant
+ - Re: Government control (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, Eva Durant
> writes:

>Would you please give me  brief rundown on the inpact of capitalism
>on human thought, belief and morals. In the meantime, try to drag
>yourself away from the idea, that democratic socialism can be
>identified with anything you building up into the usual strawman.
>When you'll actually comprehend (I am an optimist obviously)
>, what it means and you won't
>need yet an other explanation about the advantages of such a
>system both economic and ethical.
>Eva Durant

We're not talking about capitalism here. We're talking about
Marxism-Leninism and its  impacts on human thought, beliefs and morals.
You aren't even creative enough to come up with a new dodge when I point
out to people that your chosen method of avoiding scrutiny of your
ideological beliefs is to try and divert the conversation away from
Marxism-Leninism onto capitalism. How stupid do you think the readers of
this newsgroup are?
Sam Stowe
+ - Re: Hungarian Immigration (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 6:41 PM 2/16/96, Jim Burke wrote:
>I am trying to help my daughter learn more about Hungarian
>immigration to the United States. When it occured and where most of
>the settlement took place. We are having difficulting good,
>specific, sources for information. Any assistance in pointing her in
>the right direction would be most welcome. She has found some of
>your most recent postings informative about current discussions
>about Hungary.

16. 79-314907: Ben-Menachem, Elinor.  "Swedish citizens"; a sociopsychological
     investigation of Hungarian immigrants in Sweden,  [Uppsala, Dept. of
     Psychology, University of Uppsala, 1970]  32 l. 30 cm.
     LC CALL NUMBER: BF21.A1 U6 no. 83

2. 95-5134: Donahue, David M.  The uprooted : refugees and the United States :
     a resource curriculum /  1st ed.  Alameda, CA : Hunter House, c1995.  p.
3. 94-212376: Rowland, Robert C., 1954-  United States policy on immigration :
     an overview of the issues affecting the immigration policy of the United
     States /  Lincolnwood, Ill. : National Textbook Company, c1994.  vi, 148
     p. ; 23 cm.
     LC CALL NUMBER: JV6455.5 .R69 1994

 86-12079: Loescher, Gil.  Calculated kindness ; refugees and America's
     half-open door, 1945 to the present /  New York : Free Press ; London :
     Collier Macmillan, c1986.  xviii, 346 p. ; 25 cm.
     LC CALL NUMBER: JV6601.R4 L63 1986
70-503436: Weinstock, S. Alexander, 1931-  Acculturation and occupation: a
     study of the 1956 Hungarian refugees in the United States.  The Hague,
     Nijhoff, 1969 [1970]  x, 127 p. 24 cm.
     LC CALL NUMBER: E184.H95 W4

 67-30843: Konnyu, Leslie, 1914-  Hungarians in the United States; an
     immigration study.  St. Louis, American Hungarian Review, 1967.  iii, 84
     p. illus., facsims., maps, ports. 22 cm.
     LC CALL NUMBER: E184.H95 K6

 75-259027: World Council of Churches. Division of Inter-Church Aid,
     Refugee and World Service.  Hungary--special report.  Geneva, 1957]  30 p.
     illus. 21 cm.
     LC CALL NUMBER: DB957 .W67
13. 73-8563: Bursten, Martin A.  Escape from fear  Westport, Conn., Greenwood
     Press [1973, c1958]  xv, 224 p. illus. 23 cm.

14. 58-14310: Pfeiffer, Ede.  Child of communism.  New York, Crowell [1958]
     213 p. 21 cm.
     LC CALL NUMBER: HX260.5.A6 P48 1958

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

+ - Language Rights Conference (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The following announcement may be of interest to some of the
members of this discussion group.

----- Forwarded message # 1:


June 22-24, 1996 at Hong Kong Polytechnic University

Organised by the Department of English, Hong Kong Polytechnic University in
association with a programme committee based at the Department of Languages
and Culture, Roskilde University, Denmark.
* Plenary speakers *

E. Annamalai, Tokyo University of Foreign Studies, Japan
Language rights and language choice

Florian Coulmas, Chuo University, Japan
Language rights: state, group, individual

Alastair Pennycook, University of Melbourne, Australia
The right to do language

Robert Phillipson, Roskilde University, Denmark
Linguistic imperialism or linguistic human rights?

Tove Skutnabb-Kangas, Roskilde University, Denmark
Human rights and language wrongs

* Other invited speakers *

Martin Baik & Rosa Shim, Seoul National University, Republic of Korea
Language rights of dialect speakers

Albert Chen, Hong Kong University
Language rights and international law

Jean D'souza, Pune, India
Language, education and the rights of the child

Robyn Kilpatrick, Amnesty International Hong Kong
Language rights and human rights
The aim of the conference is to discuss the meaning and implementation of
language rights in Asia and worldwide. Major areas of discussion will include

Language and human rights
Language dominance
Minority language rights
Language rights under the law
Language rights in discourse and representation Mother-tongue and bilingual
Language rights in Hong Kong and Asia

The conference will consist of a mixture individual paper presentations and
thematic symposia.
* Registration *

Before 31st March: 100 US dollars or 750 HK dollars
After 31st March:  120 US dollars or 900 HK dollars
(Students half-price)

Cheques / Bank drafts to "The Hong Kong Polytechnic University"

Inquiries and completed registration forms to Peter Grundy, Department of
English, The Hong Kong Polytechnic University, Hung Hom, Hong Kong

Fax: (0852) 2333 6569

Up-to-date information on the conference, including a list of papers to be
presented is available on World Wide Web at
<http://www.hku.hk/engctr/lrights/lrights.html>;. The list of papers is also
available by e-mail from Phil Benson at >

The Language Rights conference immediately follows the Knowledge and
Discourse Conference to be held at Hong Kong University, June 18-21. Further
details from > or <http://www.hku.hk/engctr/>;.
Phil Benson
English Centre
Hong Kong University
Pokfulam Road
Hong Kong

Fax: (852) 2547 3409


----- End of forwarded messages
+ - Bokros's resignation (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

According to an English-language news item from OMRI (Prague) the reason for
Bokros's resignation was the following:

>HUNGARIAN FINANCE MINISTER RESIGNS. Lajos Bokros on 18 February tendered
>his resignation after a tumultuous cabinet debate in which his proposal
>to levy a new, social insurance tax was rejected, Hungarian media
>reported the next day. Bokros, who has been under increasing attack
>since the announcement of a radical stabilization program last March,
>said the new tax was necessary to meet the IMF requirement that the 60
>billion forint social insurance deficit be reduced by more than two-
>thirds. In his resignation letter, he noted that without government
>support, he could neither visualize nor guarantee the success and
>implementation of public spending reform. Top government officials have
>pledged to continue with the stabilization program, but the unexpected
>resignation of the internationally respected finance minister may
>jeopardize the country's prospects for OECD membership and for an
>impending IMF loan. -- Zsofia Szilagyi

        If that is the case, I am not surprised that the cabinet refused to
endorse Bokros's ideas. I don't think that you can tax the Hungarian public
any higher as it is taxed already. As the matter of fact they should lower
taxes instead of increasing them. The solve the problem of the budget, IMHO,
can be achieved only one reasonable way: lower expenses. Not to raise taxes.
I was all for Bokros's austerity program but I am not for his idea of
introducing new taxes.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: Living standards and economic growth (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:01 PM 2/20/96 +0100, Eva Durant wrote:
>> anecdotal story about Mexican living standards are correct--the population
>> as a whole doesn't benefit. Some SOMEONE/S DOES/DO.
>... and you seemingly don't really care who.

        Where do you get this? How do you know what I think. I am simply
stating here a fact.

> Also, you dismiss
>the part, that it can also still mean further impoverisation
>of more people.

        "It"? What? Do you mean "economic growth"? You mean economic growth
can further impoverish the people? For Pete's sake, try to think here and there

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: A few words about many words (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 03:12 PM 2/20/96 +0100,Eva Durant wrote:

>I don't want Hungary to repeat foul capitalist mistakes, like
>it was repeating foul stalinist ones before.

        As it was Hungary's choice to repeat "foul stalinist" mistakes! At
least this time they have a choice and I hope they will pick the right one.

> I have as right
>to convey my worries, as you have yours.

        Certain, ad infinitum.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: lachs, lox and lazac (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 01:38 PM 2/20/96 +0000, Jim wrote:
>I find it strange that 'lox' should come from the yiddish, while lazac=20
>comes from northern Slavic (=C9sz. Szl=E1v)  They both mean the same thing=
>(you can get lazac and bagels at the "New York Bagel" in Budapest), and=
>sound similar.
        Why do you find that strange? Lox in the United States at least
means smoked salmon and it is considered to be Jewish food. Bagles also are
Jewish, or at least they were until two clever New Haven businessmen called
the Lender brothers distributed them nationwide and thus popularized them
outside of the Jewish community. Today, especially on the East Coast, lox
and bagles with cream cheese are favorites at Saturday brunches. Lox
certainly comes from the Yiddish. The proper English name for that
particular fish is "salmon." "Lazac" is the Hungarian name for the same fish
and the word came from German via Slovak. I find it very simple.

        Eva Balogh
+ - Re: American is good enough for us! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "Eva S. Balogh"
> writes:

>Up to now, no one
>but no one commented negatively on American spelling--it is absolutely
>        Eva Balogh

Absolutely szalaicious, if you ask me. What motivates Joe to make these
off-colour remarks anyway?
Sam Stowe
+ - Nation states and knowledge (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Joe Szalai obviously took offense at my criticizing his habit of talking
about things he knows little about.

Thus he wrote:

>It seems somewhat pointless to debate the finer points of nation states with
>you, since you have all the answers.

Let me try to explain to you a few things. There are many, many things I
know next to nothing about. I would not sit down and argue with an engineer
about the construction of a bridge; I would not argue with a philosopher
about Aristotle and Plato; I would not even understand what a mathematician
wants to tell me about higher mathematics. I don't know much about South
American history but I know a little about China, Japan, and Korea. I know
quite a bit of Russian history, even more Eastern European history, and even
more Hungarian history. And when it comes to 1919-1920 I know tons! I also
know quite a bit about nationalism, nation states, national minority
question, and other related topics--otherwise I don't think that my
university would have let me loose on teaching graduate students about the
Habsburg Monarchy and the nationality question. Now, admittedly, in the last
few years I have not been studying nationalism much--which means that most
likely I am not entirely up on all my readings, but I bet I still know more
about the topic than you do. Your rather sharply stated question about
"where do you get that . . . " raised my blood pressure. And as long as you
use such expressions, dont' expect anything better in return.

        Eva Balogh'
+ - Darwin in Hungarian (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I'm forwarding this to the list at the request of the sender.
Please reply either to the list, or better yet directly to the sender's
email,  (Denis Vernier).


Hugh Agnew

----------------------------Original message----------------------------

I'm looking for a Hungarian translation of Charles Darwin's best known
book, "The Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection" (first edition,
London, 1859). Could anyone tell me to whom to write to, either in Hungary
or in any main cities throughout the world with multifarious bookstores
(New York City, London, Amsterdam, etc.)? Or is it any better way to

Many thanks.

Denis Vernier
+ - Re: American is good enough for us! (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article >, "Amos J. Danube"
> says:
>Joe Szalai wrote:
>(I wish Hungarian-Americans would set a good example for Hungarians who are
>using this list to improve their English language skills, by using the
>correct English spelling of words.  In English, "program" is spelled
>"programme", "color" is spelled "colour", etc..)
>    Joe,
>       You are not only trying to impose  your views on us in every-
>    thing else, now you want us to use "English" when we have a very
>    nice American. And guess what?  We are very  happy with our own.
>    So leave our language alone.
>       Not a hyphenated American,
>                                   Amos

        Dear Amos,

        I enjoyed reading your reply to Joe Szalai - -  thanks from

        a hyphenated American.

+ - Re: A disabled country (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

In article > Eva Durant
> writes:

>> Eva Durant and Joe Szalai think that I am exaggerating the question of
>> medical fraud when it comes to diability pensions. Just last night I
>> happened upon an article, which appeared in Nepszabadsag (February 3). In
>> this article I found the following: "Forty percent of people between ages of
>> nineteen and fifty-nine live on some kind of aid, or depended on other
>> people's income. Those who are so depended doubled in the last four years."
>> The writer's conclusion is that something must be done.
>> Eva Balogh

Although this sounds a little like typical Hungarian exaggeration, there is
much truth in it.  Hungarians have much higher rates of morbidity and
mortality than other Europeans.  This should result in higher rates of
disability!  At the same time, social insurance in Hungary results in large
numbers of 'dependent' persons in the adult population.  This is especially
true given early retirement among women and social benefits for childcare.

>I wouldn't be surprised, if most of them were women looking after
>not yet school-aged children. Any data on nursery closures?
>You reckon they could all find jobs if they were not this
>horridly idle types? :) :) :(

Not many school-aged children in Hungary!  That is one of the major problems
that the country is facing.  Childcare and maternity benefits are aimed at
encouraging childbearing.  It does not appear to be working.  Even more
foolish is the fact that these benefits are awarded to people whether they
'need' them or not.  In other words, those with adequate incomes still receive
these benefits.

>Eva Durant

Laszlo Gallay
Ph.D. Candidate
Urban, Technological and Environmental Planning
University of Michigan
Ann Arbor
+ - Re: Hungarian prehistory (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

At 9:41 PM 2/18/96, Andras Kornai wrote:

>I'm sorry to pour water on this, but such results of glottochronological
>extrapolation are notoriously unreliable.  Unfortunately, the less speculat=
>methods of historical linguistics do not have the power to resolve any issu=
>beyond a roughly 2000 year time period preceding the earliest written data.

They do provide evidence, although I might tend to agree with you that they
are not as reliable as data gathered at later centuries. The relationship
between peoples is proven through a close examination of the structural
similarities of their languages and specilized vocabulary.

>Many people (now armed with a better understanding of chaotic processes)
>seriously doubt whether a better resolution is in fact possible at all,
>much as professional meteorologists do not believe that one can predict
>daily changes in the weather a year ahead. Since no written record goes
>back before 4,000 BC, anything about the linguistic state of the world
>prior to 6,000 BC is speculation based on extremely shaky models.
Do we have to take that on your authority?

>> The predecessors of the magyars descended from the Finno-Ugrian family of
>> the Ural branch of the Ural-altaic peoples.
>Whether Ural-Altaic peoples as such ever formed a single group remains an
>unresolved issue. Not an unreasonable hypothesis, but by no means a proven =
Agreed. The Altaic connection had recently been denied.

>> Hungarian words of Finno-Ugric origin west of the Ural: fenyo3, nyir. Eas=
>> of the Ural: me1h, me1z, nemeslazac;
>Nemeslazac is a real weak point here -- compounds are highly untraceable, s=
>let's stick with lazac. Germanic lachs seems a reasonable contact hypothesi=
>here, especially as a number of rather basic flora/fauna terms are
>unquestionably Germanic in origin.
Unquestionably? Why?

Oldest Hungarian Words (examples)

body parts: fej (head), haj (hair), homlok (forhead), szem (eye), orr
(nose), f=FCl (ear), sz=E1j (mouth), ajak (lip), h=E1t (back), fog (tooth), =
(tongue), sziv (heart)

nature: =E9g (sky), menny (heaven), hang (voice, sound), =E9j (night), virra=
(dawns), =F6sz (autumn), t=E9l (winter), tavasz (spring), j=E9g (ice), h=F3 =
fagy (frost), vad (wild), hegy (mountain), =FAt (road), =E9g (sky)

gender: n=F6 (woman), h=EDm (sky)

pronuns: =E9n (I), te (you), ti (you, plural)

animals: daru (crane), fecske (swallow), fogoly (partridge), h=F3d (beaver),
varju (crow), hal (fish),ny=FAl (rabbit), eg=E9r (mouth)

plants: gy=F6k=E9r (root), k=E9reg (bark), =E1g (branch), fa (tree), hagyma
(onion), meggy (berry)

numbers: kett=F6 (two), h=E1rom (three), n=E9gy (four), =F6t (five), hat=
 (six), h=E9t
(seven), h=FAsz (twenty), harminc (thirty)

metals: vas (iron), r=E9z (copper), ez=FCst (silver), arany (gold), =F3lom
(lead), =F3n (tin)

clothing: ujj (sleeve), =F6v (belt), sz=EDj (belt), csom=F3 (knot), fon (spi=
varr (sew), mos (wash)

relatives: =F6s (ancestor), atya (father), anya (mother), fi=FA (boy), =F6cs
(younger brother), =E1rva (orphan), f=E9rj (husband), n=F6 (woman)

religion: l=E9lek (soul), s=EDr (grave), farkas (wolf), szarvas (deer)

home: h=E1z (house), lak (abode), rak (pile), ajt=F3 (door), =E1gy (bed), ke=
(bread), vaj (butter), irt (clears), f=FAr (drills)

>> men were Europid, women were mildly Mongoloid, flat-faced
>??? How could the male and female parts of the population preserve
>distinct anthropological characteristics?

Consider mixed marriages. So show the graves.

>> 1600-1500 B.C. Horseback riding Finno-Ugrians; majority practice
>> agriculture; The break-up of the Finno-Ugrians took place in the middle o=
>> the second millennium; in touch with the Iranians until 1600 B.C.; 26
>> Hungarian words exists of Old-Iranian origin;
>Could we have a list please?
 Alan words: asszony, hid, gazdag, zold, uveg, placenames: Eszlar
>> 1000 B.C. proto-Hungarians: adoption of nomad life-style,
>Are you seriously proposing they went back from agricultural to nomadic?
Yes. They were forced to move westward. Some show weather changes.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

+ - Re: Magyars, Sumerians, and Uygurs (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Dear Mr. Hidas -
 It was not suggested by anyone as far as I
>know, least of all me, that the Magyars and Uygurs are one and the same,
>only that there may be some kinship between the two peoples, and the idea
>has been posited that the Magyars may have actually originated in the area
>of Xinjiang.
What is this assumption based upon?
>You have now posted, I believe, four messages in relation to this theme.
>But, in none of them have I seen any more evidence or proof of the
>hypotheses that you have put forward than Mr. Sisa does. Furthermore, his
>book is a popularization, in which one wouldn't really expect to find
>extensive footnotes. And furthermore, Sisa doesn't put forward any of those
>theses as gospel; he does cite a number of alternatives which have been put
>forward by various theorists.  Ms. Fa'bos-Becker in her response actually
>gave more specifics on the findings of scholars than you have.
>It seems to me that all of these ideas are theories, not proven, and I woul=
>like to hear a discussion on the merits of the various theories which have
>been put forward.

If you are putting forth a thesis that is contrary to the Hungarian
scientific community's kfindings in the past century and a half, you have
to make an effort to provide serious evidence.
>Some questions for your delectation:
>1) What evidence is there that the Finno-Ugrians *originated* in the
>vicinity of the Urals? Isn't it just as likely that they may have originate=
>elsewhere and migrated to that area, and in fact mightn't they  have
>originated in Central Asia?

The evidence is anthropological.
 that ultimate truth is arrived at by developing a theory, testing,
>dissemination of the results, and development of new, more sophisticated
>theories which better match observed facts.

Here we are in perfect agreement.

>3) Perhaps the theory of the Sumerian-Magyar kinship is a crock, but
>apparently there is a pretty definite linguistic connection.

Let us here about that.

 It seems to me
>that if there is a connection, it can only be because the two languages
>descended from the same root, or the peoples lived in close proximity to on=
>another for a considerable period of time. Perhaps the Magyars migrated
>through Sumerian lands, or perhaps they lived close together in Central Asi=
>and then diverged.

There is no evidence to that at all. HIstory does not belong the the realm
of pure speculation.
>In any case it does seem to me that all the various theories deserve
>consideration and it would be short-sighted to dismiss them out-of-hand.

All scientific theories, that is theories that are based on scientific

Literature worth consulting:

=46odor, Istv=E1n. In Search of a New Homeland; The Prehistory of the Hungar=
People and the Conquest. Budapest: Corvina, 1975.

Macartney, C. A.  The Medieval Hungarian Historians  A Critical and
Analytical. Cambridge, Eng. : University Press, 1953.

Macartney, C. A.  The Magyars in the Ninth Century.  Cambridge, U.K.: The
University Press, 1930.

Roheim, Geza.   Hungarian and Vogul Mythology.   Locust Valley, N.Y., J. J.
Augustin 1954.

Sinor Denis, "The Earliest Period of Hungarian Turkic Relations," Hungarian
History -  World History.  ed. Gyorgy Ranki. Budapest: Akademiai Kiado,
1984. 1-12.

Vambery, Armin.  Hungary in Ancient, Mediaeval, and Modern Times.  London :
T. Fisher Unwin, 1886.

=46odor, Istvan. "ostortenetunk korai szakaszainak nehany fo vonasa."
Tortenelmi Szemle 15, Nos.1-2 (1972):  1-28.

Gyorffy, Gyorgy. "A magyar-szlav erintkezesek kezdetei es 'Etelkoz'
multja." Toth, Sandor. "Kabarok (kavarok) a 9. szazadi magyar
torzsszovetsegben." Szazadok 124, No.1 (1990):  3-24.

Gyorffy, Gyorgy. "A steppei nomadoktol a magyar allamig." Tortenelmi Szemle
30, No.4 (1987-1988):   516-520.

Herenyi, Istvan. "A magyar torzsszovetseg torzsei es torzsfoi."  Szazadok
116, No. 1 (1982):  62-92.

Makkay, Janos. "Az urali-finnugor ostortenet nehany kerdese az indo-europai
ostortenet szemszogebol." Szazadok 125, Nos. 1-2 (1991):  3-34.

Moor, Elemer. "Az =C1rpad-monarchia kialakulasanak kerdesehez."  Szazadok
104, No.2 (1970):  350-382.

Moor, Elemer. "A kaukazuson tuli allitolagos 'szavard-magyarok' kerdesehez,
fo tekintettel annak a chazar-probemaval valo kapcsolatara." Szazadok 104,
No.5 (1971):  961-965.

Szakaly, Ferenc. "ostortenet, kozepkor."  Szazadok 114, No.3 (1980):  331-36=

Senga, Toru. "A besenyok a 8. szazadban." Szazadok 126, Nos. 5-6 (1992):

Sinor Denis, "the Earliest Period of Hungarian Turkic Relations," Hungarian
History -  World History.  ed. Gyorgy Ranki. Budapest: Akademiai Kiado,
1984. 1-12.

Szakaly, Ferenc. "ostortenet. Kozepkor." Szazadok  114, No.3 (1980):  331-36=

Szekely, Gyorgy. "Magyarok, bolgartorokok, avarok a Karpatokon tuli es
inneni kapcsolataik hagyomanyaban." Szazadok 120, No.1 (1986):  101-110.

Szaharov, A.N. "Orosz-magyar szovetsegi kapcsolatok a 9.-10. szazadban."
Szazadok 120, No.1 (1986): 111-122.

Toth, Sandor. "Kabarok (kavarok) a 9. szazadi magyar torzsszovetsegben."
Szazadok 118, No.1 (1984):  92-113.

Toth, Sandor Laszlo. "Az eltelkozi magyar-besenyo haboru." Szazadok 122,
No.4 (1988):  541-576.

Peter I. Hidas, Montreal

+ - Only read this if you fancy some light relief... (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Things have been getting pretty heavy lately, so I thought participants =
might appreciate this...

The Hungarian Government's policy of socialised medicine has recently =
been broadened to include a service called "Proxy Fathers".  Under the =
government plan, any married woman who is unable to become pregnant =
through the first five years of her marriage may request the service of =
a proxy father; a government employee who attempts to solve the couple's =
problem by impregnating the wife.
  The Dienes', a young couple, have no children and a proxy father is =
due to=20
arrive.  Leaving for work, Mr. Dienes says, I'm off.  The government man =
be here soon."  Moments later a door-to-door baby photographer rings the =

   Ms Dienes:  "Good morning."

   Salesman:  "Good morning, madam.  You don't know me, but I've come =

   Ms Dienes:  "No need to explain,  I've been expecting you.

   Salesman:  "Really?  Well, good.  I've made a speciality of babies,=20
especially twins."

   Ms Dienes:  "That's what my husband and I had hoped.  Please come in =
and have=20
a seat."

   Salesman:  (Sitting) "Then you don't need to be sold on the idea?"

   Ms Dienes:  "Don't concern yourself. My husband and I both agree this =
is the=20
right thing to do."

   Salesman:  "Well, perhaps we should get down to it."=20

   Ms Dienes:  (Blushing) "Just where do we start?"

   Salesman:  "Leave everything to me.  I usually try two in the =
bathtub, one=20
on the couch and perhaps a couple on the bed. Sometimes the living room =
allows the subject to really spread out."

   Ms Dienes:  "Bathtub, living room floor?  No wonder it hasn't worked =
Laszlo and me."

   Salesman:  "Well, madam, none of us can guarantee a good one every =
time, but=20
if we try several locations and I shoot from six or seven angles, I'm =
you'll be pleased with the results.  In fact, my business card says, 'I =
aim to=20

   Ms Dienes:  "Pardon me, but isn't this a little informal?"

   Salesman:  "Madam, in my line of work, a man must be at ease and take =
time.  I'd love to be in and out in five minutes, but you'd be =
with that."

   Ms Dienes:  "Don't I know!  Have you had much success at this?"

   Salesman:  (Opening his briefcase and finding baby pictures) "Just =
look at=20
this picture.  Believe it or not, it was done on top of a bus in =

   Ms Dienes:  "Oh, my!!"

   Salesman:  "And here are pictures of the prettiest twins in town. =
turned out exceptionally well when you consider their mother was so =
to work with."

   Ms Dienes:  "She was?"

   Salesman:  "Yes, I'm afraid so.  I finally had to take her down to =
Hero's Square=20
to get the job done right.  I've never worked under such impossible=20
conditions.  People were crowding around four and five deep, pushing to =
get a=20
good look."

    Ms Dienes:  "Four and five deep?"

   Salesman:  "Yes and for more than three hours, too.  The mother got =
excited she started bouncing around, squealing and yelling at the crowd. =
couldn't concentrate.  I'm afraid I had to ask a couple of men restrain =
her. =20
By that time darkness was approaching and I began to rush my shots. When =
squirrels began  nibbling on my equipment I just packed it all in."

   Ms Dienes:  "You mean they actually chewed on your, eh.., equipment?"

   Salesman:  "That's right, but it's all in a day's work.  I consider =
my work=20
a pleasure.  I've spent years perfecting my patented technique. Now take =
baby, I shot this one in the front window of a big department store."

   Ms Dienes:  "I just can't believe it."

   Salesman:  "Well, madam, if you're ready, I'll set up my tripod so =
that we=20
can get to work."

   Ms Dienes:  "TRIPOD?!?"

   Salesman:  "Oh yes, I have to use a tripod to rest my equipment on. =
much too heavy and unwieldy for me to hold while I'm shooting.  Ms =
Dienes?...My word, she's fainted! =20
+ - Re: lachs, lox and lazac (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Eva Balogh does a pretty good job with the origin of "lox" in English,
but it's not quite so simple, although perhaps it's even more interesting.
This word for salmon goes back at least to Old English (pre-1000) and its
Germanic relatives--it's Old English form was "lachs".  For unknown rea-
sons, however, it died out in standard English until "re-borrowed" from
Yiddish, which, of course, got it from German.

So go enjoy!
+ - Seeking International Vendors with Bosnian Partners (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

No. 96-IPQ-Zen-0001
Release Date: 20 Feb 1996

Notice for Vendor Pre-Qualification

        UMCOR, an international, U.S.-based, non-governmental organization
        (NGO) has been contracted by the United Nations High Commission for
        Refugees (UNHCR) for the 'kick-off' reconstruction program for


        A.   To locally produce and/or procure basic shelter reconstruction
        materials  (e.g. roof tiles, bricks/blocks, cement, lime, structural
        timber, water/sewage pipes, toilets/sinks, faucets, window/door
        frames and sashes, and electrical wire) on a large scale within the

        B.   Parallel/secondary objective is to generate local income through
        related local employment opportunities. Emphasis will be on producing
        all materials within the Republic, however, in those cases where this
        is not practical, or possible, then provision will be made to import
        materials through Bosnian-owned companies and Bosnian-owned trucking.

Areas of Reconstruction -

        Housing -

        Some reconstruction activities are already underway, but major
        rebuilding has been constrained by inadequate supply of building
        materials, infrastructure, and resources.

        Water Supply, Sewerage and Solid Waste -

        According to World Bank estimations, the reconstruction program for
        water supply, sewerage and solid waste will aim to restore services
        to pre-war levels within three years.  Presently, UMCOR will maintain
        water and sanitation systems which support collective centres for
        displaced persons, and to plan for the reutilization of schools and
        other municipal buildings.

        Industry -

        Reviving industrial output requires natural resources, capital stock,
        and technical and commercial human skills.  Future reconstruction and
        development will come from foreign investors, international
        partnerships, and private sector development.

Invitation to Prospective Vendors -

        UMCOR is soliciting proposals from potential Bosian-owned companies;
        contractors; importers; and private agencies to locally produce
        and/or procure basic shelter reconstruction materials  (e.g. roof
        tiles, bricks/blocks, cement, lime, structural timber, water/sewage
        pipes, toilets/sinks, faucets, window/door frames and sashes, and
        electrical wire) on a large scale within the Republic.

        International companies, material suppliers; and exporters, with
        planned or established relationships, partnerships, or formal
        business ties with Bosian-owned companies are also invited to submit
        their proposals.

        Interested offerors may submit their letters of interest, catalogs,
        technical specifications, and other documents to UMCOR, Attn..: Mr.
        Stephen E. Flores, Procurement Manager - Zenica HQ, C/O Cesta
        Metogras 47, Podstrana, Split, Croatia.  Also, information can be
        faxed to 387-72-415-027 (Zencia, Bosnia) after 1 March 1996.

General Rules -

Source and Origin of Commodities.

     1.   Policy

          a.   Source

               "Source" means the country from which a commodity is shipped
     to Bosnia-Herzegovina or Bosnia-Herzegovina itself if the commodity is
     located therein at the time of purchase.  However, where a commodity is
     shipped from a free port or bonded warehouse in the form in  which
     received therein, "source" means the country from which the commodity
     was shipped to the free port or bonded warehouse.

          b.   Origin

               The "origin" of a commodity is the country or area in which a
     commodity is mined, grown, or produced.  A commodity is produced when
     through manufacturing, processing or substantial and major assembling of
     components a commercially recognized new commodity results that is
     substantially different in basic characteristics or in purpose or
    utility from its components.  Merely packaging various items together
    for a particular procurement or relabeling items does not constitute
 production of a commodity.

+ - an apology for sloppiness (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Thanks, George Anthony for the correction.  One can apply Keynesian
policies or models without being Keynesian.

:-{  <----Bokros


\_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_

James D. Doepp
Department of Economic Theory
University of Miskolc

I must find a truth that is true
for me... the idea for which I
can live or die.
-Soren Kierkegaard

\_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_
+ - Re: Government control (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

There was a note of optimism (among non-socialists) when the socialists
came back a year and a half ago.  In 1948 the socialists (communists)
took from the rich and the landowners; in the 70s they borrowed from
abroad; now, there is no chance of getting foreign loans, and there are
no rich to take from.  Therefore, there can be no turning back.


\_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_

James D. Doepp
Department of Economic Theory
University of Miskolc

I must find a truth that is true
for me... the idea for which I
can live or die.
-Soren Kierkegaard

\_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_
+ - lachs, lox and lazac (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I find it strange that 'lox' should come from the yiddish, while lazac=20
comes from northern Slavic (=C9sz. Szl=E1v)  They both mean the same thing=
(you can get lazac and bagels at the "New York Bagel" in Budapest), and the=
sound similar.


\_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_=20

James D. Doepp
Department of Economic Theory
University of Miskolc

I must find a truth that is true
for me... the idea for which I=20
can live or die.
-Soren Kierkegaard

\_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_ \_