#In article >,  says...
#>
#> 
#>I am personally in process of locating members of the board of trusties 
#>at University of Carleton, Ottawa. NAZI orientations like his are to be 
#>isolated, curtailed and expelled from the society. It is hard for me to 
#>believe that a young generation could end up studding in a place as the 
#>University of Carleton under Mr. Frajkor's guidance. 
#>
#>
#>A. Albu

	mr albu, i wish you good luck, hoping that you will succeed in
	"locating" the trustees of carleton university (thay cannot be
	anywhere far from the university).   it would bring to their
	attention two important facts they might not focus on otherwise:

	1.	professor frajkor's profound and multi-faceted 
	scholarship, as well as his exemplary moral integrity, which has
	been a stabilizing factor on this list, preied upon by 
	self-invited impostors.

	2.	it would also open the trustees' eyes vis a vis your
	neurotic hunnic barking, mental lability, lack of respect of     
	other people's opinion and a generally known vulgarity.

	the fact that you are under a microscope should not stop your
	outbreaks of rage.   they help slovakia more than anything else.

Szia, mindenkinek!

At 00:56 01/09/96 GMT, Gabor Barsai wrote:
>In article >,
>Istvan Szucs > wrote:
>>In article >,
>> > wrote:
>>,The ones who would are the ones
>>| like us, who kept their fingers on the pulse of Hungarian public affairs
>>| through close relatives and friends, regular visits, media and now the
>>| best of it all, the Internet.
>>
>>But that is insufficient. (in my opinion). <sznip> One who lived
>>abroad through the last forty years (many of them spent over
>>half their lives here) can be sympathetic to Hungary and
>>Hungarians, can even understand it - as you understand
>>something from a book - but one thing for certain - you
>>don't LIVE it.
>
>So what? If they still have their Hungarian citizenship, or if they lost their
>citizenship not from their own fault, I think they should vote. Why are you
>trying to exclude them? In fact, anybody who pays income tax to the Hungarian
>government, or is a citizen, should have the right to meddle in public affairs
>of the country, IMHO. Politicians lose touch with reality, yet they get the
>right to vote.
>
>Gabor

I have been following this discussion with great interest, as I am a dual
citizen (U.S. and Canada) who has resided primarily in Canada for the last
19 years. I regularly vote in elections in both countries and do not feel
that there is any contradiction in doing so. Of course, it may be somewhat
easier to keep an eye on goings-on in the States from Canada than on Hungary
from anywhere in North America, as it, along with the rest of Eastern and
Central Europe, is pretty well ignored for the most part by the mainstream
North American media. However, I certainly feel able to vote on the
candidates for national office in the States, because I do follow
developments in the country and am usually familiar with the candidates'
positions on the issues. I would think that a Hungarian citizen resident
abroad would be just as capable of following the events in Hungary and
voting knowledgeably for the candidates there. Especially since there are
many Hungarians who may be abroad for only a short time. There is absolutely
no valid reason for denying such people the right to vote in their own country.

U:dvo:zlettel,

Johanne
Johanne L. Tournier
e-mail - 

 (Ross Hedvicek) wrote:

>>>As a therapist, I deal with a lot of people that have various handicaps,
><snip>

>Well, here is posting of Ms. Szurek from other list:

>>From:  (Kristina Szurek)
>>Subject: Re: mR. A Albu - SMRDIS  CESNAKOM !
>>Date: 30 Aug 1996 13:54:05 GMT
> 
>>Drahy pan Kokot Lewinski je mi luto ze nevies citat po Slovensky, ale
>>Mr. Alban, ktory smrdi cesnakom, bol ten ktory propagoval nenavist
>>a superioritu voci jednotlivcom a narodom, co je tak isto trestne.  Neviem
>>odkial mas tie reci o fasizme, ale uz si pomaly zvykam na vsetky tie
>>blbosti co sa rodia v tvojej gebuli.  Lepsie by si stravil cas keby si
>>sa dal na kolienka a odprosil Slovensky narod za odpustenie.

>>[Sorry to those that have to read this, I usually try to post productive
>>postings, but Mr. Lewinski is communicating through insults on the 'Net.
>>His intelligence is preventing him from understanding any other
>>form of discussion.]

>Isn't she a lovely loser?

A very "productive" professional post. 
I think this girl needs help.  And I don't think one has to be a dipl.
psych. from York U. to recognize that.  





Karl Pollak
Richmond, British Columbia

 (Kristina Szurek) wrote:

> My account is perfectly legal, I don't know what your problem is.

Well, geez, girl, you're the professional, analyze him.  You seemed to
have no prob doing it to Roman.

>By the way don't be so quick to assume my marital status and age.
>Have you ever heard of adult students in schools?  I could be 50 for all
>you know.  Oh, you probably never even went to school.

Possible, but not probable.  If you were anywhere near that age, you
would be making far more sense, dear.

>Do you, Mr. Kanala, need some counselling or therapy?

I thought you had already decided that he does.  If I'm not mistaken
you said so in your previous vitriol-mail, even went as far as calling
him a sick man.  And I sincerely he does sue you for it.

>Big words, no content....it's called BULL SHIT in our university
>dictionary.

Another professional opinion?  Gosh kid, you seem to be full of them
...


Karl Pollak
Richmond, British Columbia

(Michael Hajovsky) wrote:

>It's you again! Mr. Kanala and Mr. Frajkor are participating here in
>what is know as "Freedom of the speech", which is know here in USA as
>"First amendment to the constitution". For that you are threatening one
>of them with a personal harm and persecution. If one were to compare
>you to a nazi, it would be a genuine insult to all nazis. Does not
>Canada have anti-stalking laws? Just go away, and stay away, please.

Michael, perhaps you failed to notice that Carleton U is in Ottawa,
Ontario, not in Boston or Philadelphia. Consequently the First
Amendment to the US Constitution is of no relevance to anyone
concerned.

[As an aside, it would be a good idea to actually read that amendment
because it guarantees _nothing_.  All it does is to prohibit the
federal Congress from passing a certain law.  It does no pass any such
injunction on any State authority and has no validity as against a
private person]

It may further interest you that Canada in fact has a few clauses in
its Criminal Code prohibitting the spreading and inticing of hatred
against identifiable groups.  I think that with little effort, Janosik
Frajkor's writings could easily qualify as hate propaganda.

But it is not really necessary to reach for the rather weighty
provisions of the Criminal Code.  Both Canada and Ontario also have
Human Rights Codes, where the onus of proof is lesser than under the
Criminal Code and under which Jurko Janosik could qualify even easier.

Freedom of speech certainly does not extend to the insults, libel and
plain ol' flaming that folks like K. Szurka and I. Gajdik had been
heaping on Roman here.

Sincerely, etc. etc.

Karl Pollak
Richmond, British Columbia

God bless all the readers of soc.culture.slovakia !  But why is this saga
cross posted to soc.culture.magyar? 

Kell e nekunk importalt furas? Csak olvassuk a Forumot es a Hungary-t.

                                  Mark

In article >,
Bobbie > wrote:
|  (Istvan Szucs) wrote:
| 
| >WHere do you get Hungarian food in NY?
| 
| Try the Yorkville Packing House on 2nd Avenue at 81st Street.  Also try
| Tibor on 2nd Avenue ... I think it was 79th or 80th Streets.
| 
| >The russian stores come close for a lot cheaper, but hte
| >quality is much  much lower.
| 
| Know of any that have mail order?

Not really, but if you are gonna get mail order, I think you
are better off getting the real McCoy. This $5 sausage is
not worth shipping. 

Thanks for the address.

In article >,
 > wrote:
| Istvan Szucs > wrote:
| 
| >Except that many of them have lost touch but don't realize
| >it, or admit it even to themsleves. THey go as far as claim
| >that they know better (as a group or individually) and are
| >as effected by it as people who live home, and in fact those
| >who live home just mess things up and THEY shoud be the
| >premier decision makers. 
| 
| This is exactly that thinly veiled cover wrapped in sophistry I was
| talking about.  The fact is, you are in no position to judge whether
| somebody like me lost touch with Hungarian reality or
| not. 

All I said was that- in my opinion - there is a huge
difference between being informed and living a reality. 
BTW You mentioned some sort of jealousy, as the reason
for the antipathy against emigrees who live in the USA.
Since currently I live in the USA as well - how can you 
say that I would have such jealousy?

 For every
| one of us here, I could show you one back in Hungary who has no idea
| what goes on in Hungarian politics.  In fact, I am always flabbergasted
| on my visits back there how little they know about their
own affairs.

Yet they are the ones who are affected primarily by the
decisions made. 

| >But that is insufficient. (in my opinion). you kept your
| >finger on it, but they are IN it. You hear about it, perhaps
| >seek out information about it - they live it. 
| 
| That's the problem. They can't see the forest from the
trees.


| That's why they keep going back to what they are familiar with, such as
| electing the same Commies back to power, instead of trying something new for
| a change. 

And you want them to go somewhere else then they are
currently going. So what you are claiming here that you (or
Hungarian Americans) should have the control instead of
Hungarians in Hungary, because somehow folks in Hungary are
making decisions that you don't agree with. WHat more do you
need to  show that there is a discrepancy between your views
and those at home. Your opinion sounds condescending and
elitist to say the least. This "I'll tell you what you want"
is part of the reason I think people IN Hungary should make
decisions for themselves.

 In Hungary's history the catalysts for progress were always
| those who spent some time in the West and upon their return they tried
| to implement what they learned abroad. Be it craftsmen, artists, or
| noblemen, for that matter.  You and your ilk are trying to deny the same
| process and we all see the results of it: a rapid sinking of Hungary
| from the 2nd world status to the 3rd world level.
| 
| Congratulations!
| 
| Joe

Ilk? Third world status? ANd you claim to be in touch?

In article >,
Gabor Barsai > wrote:
| In article >,
| Istvan Szucs > wrote:
| >In article >,
| > > wrote:
| 
| So what? If they still have their Hungarian citizenship, or if they lost thei
r
| citizenship not from their own fault, I think they should vote. Why are you
| trying to exclude them? 


I have outlined some of my reasons. Please address them if you want
to discuss them, instead   of just ignoring them.

On 1 Sep 1996, Michael Hajovsky wrote:

> If you want to take up a crusade, work for the passage of something
> resembling the first amendment into the Slovak constitution. God knows 
> they could use it.

The freedom of speech (sloboda prejavu) is included in the Slovak
Constitution.


Peter Hakel

In article >,  > wrote:
| From the news:
| 
| >HUNGARY'S BOSNIAN REFUGEES CAST THEIR BALLOTS. Some 2,000 Bosnian
| >refugees in Hungary have voted in the Bosnian national elections, ahead
| >of hundreds of thousands of others still living in exile, Reuters
| >reported on 26 August. According to an OSCE official the voting was
| >completed without any irregularities among Hungary's Muslim-dominated
| >Bosnian community. Under the Dayton agreement, Bosnian citizens living
| >abroad are entitled to vote for parliamentary and local council
| >candidates prior to the Bosnian elections, which are set for 14
| >September. -- Zsofia Szilagyi
| 
| I wonder when Hungary grants the same rights to her citizens abroad.

Can you really not see the difference between Bosnian
refugees of the last 3 years and Hungarian emigrees leaving
Hungarian reality 40 years ago?

Istvan

I recently moved from New York City to Savannah, GA and cannot get any
Hungarian food.  Does anyone know of mail order companies that have
catalogs and will ship to Georgia?

Thanks.  :)

--

-Bobbie-

Johanne L. Tournier  > wrote:
> I would think that a Hungarian citizen resident
>abroad would be just as capable of following the events in Hungary and
>voting knowledgeably for the candidates there. Especially since there are
>many Hungarians who may be abroad for only a short time. There is absolutely
>no valid reason for denying such people the right to vote in their own country

Well, Johanne, you always make a lot of sense to me, and this is no
exception. 

I think there is more to this denial of voting rights to non-resident
citizens than what these rationalizations are trying to prove.
One thing that the Kadar regime was very successful at was a subtle
brainwashing whose effects are more obvious to those who were not
subject to it than the subjects themselves.
While I still lived in Hungary (till the late '60s), and during the '80s
on my frequent visits there, I noticed that a constant theme of stage
and TV commedies was the ridiculing of Hungarian exiles.  I think these
commedies successfully planted the idea in the Hungarian subconscious
that the typical Hungarian emigre is a bungling idiot who, when visting
back in Hungary, likes to show off and act a knows-it-all.  So the
exception became the norm by this false portrait of us there.  I noticed
how this expectation of us often affected the initial relationship
between me and other people I met there.  Almost always, I had to go
overboard to deny that preconcieved notion to them.

The other factor operating here is an overabundance of Hungarian pride,
no matter if there is a good reason for it or not.  This pride
historically had positive features as well, but when that pride ignores
reality, it can become dangerous.  Like today, when the country could
use all the help it can.  Especially from those who have an experience
in those countries with whom Hungary wants to close the gap. I am almost
certain, for instance, that in Poland's recent rapid growth, her
diaspora has a major share.  But then, Poland's citizenship law is not
as exclusionary as Hungary's.  Oh, I really shouldn't mention such
examples, unless I want to tempt the stock answer to that one: "so why
should Hungary follow Poland's example?"  And so it goes ...

Joe Pannon

(Michael Hajovsky) wrote:

>  (Karl Pollak) writes:

> > [As an aside, it would be a good idea to actually read that
> > amendment because it guarantees _nothing_.  All it does is to
> > prohibit the federal Congress from passing a certain law.  It does
> > no pass any such injunction on any State authority and has no
> > validity as against a private person]

>You are 100 percent wrong. It simply means that there shall be law
>abridging free speech by anyone, anywhere in the USA. It applies to all
>50 states, all local governments, and it applies to the state where
>self-appointed censor, Mr. Albu lives.

OK, let's take a look at the text then:
   Article I
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of
     religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging
     the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the
     people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for
     a redress of grievances."

Feel free to point out to me, where in that text it says ANYTHING
about State Legislatures or individuals.

>There is quite a large number of people here in thousands and thousands
>of newsgroups who are heaping insults upon each other. 

True, but that does not necessarily make it right or legally
acceptable.

>This is Internet. It is the land of anarchy. 

That is a problem with such an arrangement. if the organization is not
self-policing, sooner or later somebody else will assume the role of
Net-Cop.  We've already seen a few attempts, not surprisingly m in the
US Congress with their "Decency in Communications Act".

The more abuse there is on the Net, the more tempting it becomes to
the politicians to buy cheap votes by trying to rope in a world they
do not inhabit themselves and which they do not understand.

Just because their first really serious attempt did not suceed, does
not mean they are going to give up.

>It is
>also a great field for flakes and nuts who ran around trying to censor
>everyone and everything they do not like. But they never acomplished
>anything other than make fool out of themselves. And fortunately very
>few people take them seriously.

On the contrary.  I can give you a list of several people I know of
both in Canada and the USA who have been quite successfully removed
from the Internet for being abusive pests.

>I personally do not care what Mr. Albu or anyone else is posting. They
>are free to post anything they wish (other than child pornography) but 
>when they go on a stalking crusade contacting people's employers and
>trying to cause personal harm, then they become a menace.

Well, put yourself in the shoes of the employer.  Let us suppose that
you are a medium sized company or organization who has spent a fair
amount of money on promoting a certain image in the marketplace. You
have gone to considerable expense to establish a presence on the net.
You provide your members/employees free access on your server.  Then
an employee starts to use his access to the Net to spread fascist
propaganda.

All of a sudden, your lofty ideals about Free Speech fly out the
window, your own image, reputation is being undermined from your own
site. Sayonara rogue user or possibly "here's your pink slip foolish
employee".  There is no appeal and you can take your First Amendment
and wallpaper your bathroom with it.

>If you want to take up a crusade, work for the passage of something
>resembling the first amendment into the Slovak constitution. God knows 
>they could use it.

Neither Frajkor, nor Kanala live in Slovakia, so that plan of action
is rather pointless. In Frajkor's case, despite "RealSlovak
patriotism", the man cannot even speak or write Slovak properly.  But
both live outside of Slovakia (as do I) by choice.  To try to tell the
Slovaks who do live in their homeland how they should govern their own
affairs is just too absurd for words.


Karl Pollak
Richmond, British Columbia

In article >, "Aleksandar Sarovic" <aleksand
> writes:
> A different story about the war in Yugoslavia
> 
> People in Yugoslavia used to live quite well before 1990. The living
> standard was relatively high and relations between people from six
> republics with their six nations and three religions were normally pretty
> harmonious. The Serbo-Croat speakers in Yugoslavia belonged to the same
> Slavonic group but were separated by a different history and by Catholic,
> Orthodox and Muslim religion. Yugoslavia had a kind of a market economy
> with over protected workers who often lived by the rule that they could
> always work less than what they were paid for. The lack of responsibility
> at all levels of work gradually destroyed the totality of all economical
> relationships, together with Yugoslavia itself.
> 
> The last communist Prime Minister of Yugoslavia, Mr. Ante Markovic, tried
> unsuccessfully to make reforms towards market economy and free
> parliamentary elections. There were little interest in federal elections,
> while the interest in local elections was huge. A majority of new
> candidates in the republics demanded absolute control over their republics'
> resources and blamed Yugoslavia for all discomforts of common living.
> People's economical irresponsibility found its echo in political
> irresponsibility when all republic elected nationalistic candidates. All
> the new leaders in turn sabotaged federal Prime Minister's program which
> could have eventually taken Yugoslavia into the EU.
> 
> The new presidents of the republics, except from Serbia and Montenegro, did
> not hesitate to secede from Yugoslavia at any price. Serbian leaders didn't
> want secession because Serbs lived as indigenous population in all republic
> except Slovenia. The republics were created under control of president
> Tito, ethnically Croat who might be afraid of the largest Serbian nation in
> Yugoslavia so he divided them more than other nations. The results of
> referendums in Slovenia, Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Macedonia
> demonstrated that most people from those republics except Serbs wanted
> sovereignty, while most Serbs (including those from Serbia and Montenegro)
> wanted to stay in Yugoslavia. Soon after those referendums, leaders from
> separatist republic stopped negotiating about the future of Yugoslavia.
> Supported by the EU international arbitration commission, they proclaimed
> independence from Yugoslavia, and moreover, that Yugoslavia did not exist
> any more. This move ran against the right to self-determination of the
> people who wanted to remain in Yugoslavia.
> 
> In the Summer of 1991, the Slovenian government unilaterally declared
> sovereignty and cut all relationship with Yugoslavia. Because no deal was
> made about Slovenia's separation, the Yugoslav Federal Army used power to
> protect the territorial integrity of the country and was attacked by
> Slovenian Territorial Defense forces. At that time a well organized
> propaganda started all over the world with headlines such as: "Serbian
> communist army attacked free Slovenian nation." The true situation was very
> different. In those days, the President, the Prime Minister, and Minister
> of foreign Affairs of Yugoslavia were ethnic Croats. The Yugoslav Federal
> Army came from all ethnic groups, including Slovenians. The war lasted only
> a few days, while the Federal Army had almost ten times higher casualties
> than Slovenian forces because it did not have clear orders to fight in
> Slovenia.
> 
> In Croatia and Bosnia, the situation was more complex because of the large
> local Serbian populations. The Serbs were one of the founding peoples under
> the Constitutions of Croatia and Bosnia, and they did not want to separate
> from Yugoslavia. Because of that , the new Croatian Parliament hurried up
> in 1990 to take the constitutional right from the Serb people and redefine
> them as a minority. After that, the Serbs proclaimed the parts of Croatia
> where they had been living for centuries as a majority to be the Serb
> Republic of Krajina. The Croatian government responded by importing weapons
> from Hungary and attacking these ethnic Serb areas. The Krajina Serbs
> formed their own territorial defense forces, got their weapons from the
> Yugoslav Federal Army, and confronted the Croatian forces. The Croatian
> Government blamed the Yugoslav Federal Army for aggression and lost of
> territory, attacking its barracks in Croatia in order to get heavy weapons.
> After that, the Yugoslav Federal Army really attacked Croatian forces which
> ended in destruction of Vukovar and the siege of Dubrovnik.
> 
> Well organized international propaganda again blamed the Serbs. At that
> time, the EU and the UN offered help to stop the war in Croatia. By the
> Cyrus Vance plan, signed by the representatives from Yugoslavia, Croatia,
> Krajina and UN, the Yugoslav Federal Army pulled out of Croatia, while Serb
> held territories in Croatia were to be protected by the UN forces until the
> problem would be solved through negotiations. In that plan, there was no
> condition about the future of the Republic of Krajina, but later, under the
> pressure from the US and Germany, a condition was included that it had to
> remain part of Croatia, something the Serbs could not accept.
> 
> In January of 1992, Germany further undermined Yugoslavia by supporting
> unilateral violent secessions and recognizing Slovenia and Croatia as
> independent states. Other countries followed suit. Hence, the borders of
> Yugoslavia were changed not peacefully, through mutual negotiations, as
> required by international law, but by force and through international
> support for unilateral secessions. In April of 1992, the US and  the EU
> recognized Bosnia and Herzegovina as an independent state. It did not
> matter that one third of the Bosnian population were Serbs who did not want
> to secede from Yugoslavia, or that they were traditionally farmers who
> owned almost two thirds of the Bosnian land. Finally, according to
> international codes, Bosnian and Croatian governments did not fulfill the
> required conditions for recognition, because they had no control over the
> territories of those republics within the pre-war borders. In the
> destruction of Yugoslavia international laws were used thus very
> selectively, to say the least.
> 
> At the time when the US recognized Bosnia and Herzegovina, Croat and Muslim
> solders and officers had already deserted from the Yugoslav Federal Army.
> When the Serb people in Bosnia and Herzegovina formed their own army, they
> took hold of most of the Federal Army's heavy weapons. Muslims and Croats
> held most of the arms factories, however. After the international
> recognition, the Muslim and Croat dominated government was encouraged to
> rule over the whole of Bosnia and Herzegovina, which the Serbs could not
> accept. This trigged off the war. Once again, well organized international
> propaganda labeled the Serbs as aggressors.
> 
> Moreover, the US-led UN blamed Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro) for the
> war in Bosnia and called upon the Yugoslav government to stop it, or face
> economic sanctions. At that time, Yugoslavia had no power to stop the war
> any more because the Serbs in Bosnia created the Serb Republic and acted
> very much on their own. It goes without saying that Yugoslavia could not
> stop the Muslim and Croat army operations. After a massacre that happened
> in Sarajevo when an explosion killed a number of people waiting for bread,
> the UN imposed economic sanctions against Yugoslavia. Later on, the British
> "Independent" found there were serious indications that the Muslims had
> done it on purpose, to blame the Serbs. Some UNPROFOR soldiers from Britain
> confirmed that many indications pointed at the Muslim army killing their
> own people in order to accuse the Serbs and to involve NATO in the war on
> their side.
> 
> The US-led UN passed many resolutions in favor of Muslims and other
> Yugoslav ethnic groups against Serbs. They recognized all the separatist
> republic, but not the present Yugoslavia. The Serbs of the former
> Yugoslavia were the only people who were denied the right of
> self-determination. Furthermore, the UN proclaimed six Muslim towns in
> Bosnia as UN "safe areas" protected by the NATO air power. These areas were
> supposed to be demilitarized, which in fact never happened. They were a
> safe place for the Muslim army to prepare their attacks against the Serbs.
> NATO attacked only the Serb army even though the Muslim and Croat forces
> launched most of the attacks including a number of attacks on the UN
> troops. Presently, the Bosnian army has twice as many soldiers as the
> Bosnian Serbs. Croatia has a well equipped army, with whole arsenals of
> weaponry brought in for the Muslim and Croat forces in contravention of the
> arms embargo declared by the UN. The retired Croatian general Spegelj and
> the former Prime minister of Bosnia and Herzegovina Silajdjic confessed
> publicly that they had received weapons from Germany and Iran. Mr. Clinton,
> the President of the US, recently confessed knowledge about that.
> Therefore, call for the lifting of arms embargo from the Croats and Muslims
> was a peace of propaganda.
> 
> Another piece of propaganda is the International Court in the Hague which
> has investigated mostly Serb war crimes in the former Yugoslavia, even
> though numerous well documented reports on Muslim and Croat war crimes do
> exist. The result of this policy was enormous number of true and false
> accusations against the Serbs in the media, but very few against Muslims
> and Croats, The 50,000 Muslim women allegedly raped by the Serbs, were
> found (by the UN expert Bassiouni) to be a few hundred on all sides in the
> war and even that has not yet been proven. The Muslims and Croats also
> abused Serb women and held Serb men and women in camps. That remains
> unknown because the Serbs have been seldom invited to speak for themselves
> before the UN and in world media. True, the Serbs are not kind hosts on
> their territory either. An ethnic war includes ethnic cleansing an all
> sides. It should be known that ethnic cleansing on large scale started in
> Western Slavonia (Croatia) in 1991 and in Western Herzegovina in 1992 where
> the Serbs were victims. Almost half of the Serb population was displaced in
> Bosnia, and probably the same percentage of Muslims and Croats.
> 
> 
> The UN Contact Group made its proposal to end the war in Bosnia calling
> upon the Bosnian and Herzegovinian Serbs to take it or leave it. The main
> problem was the UN insistence for Bosnia and Herzegovina to remain a
> unified country. The Serbs did not accept this because their survival under
> the Croat and Muslim chauvinist regimes is highly improbable. Besides, the
> memory of a Croat-Muslim nazi genocide against the Serbs between 1941-1945,
> when hundreds of thousands Serbs civilians were killed, stands against a
> unitary state with their yesteryear's henchmen. After the Serb rejection of
> the Contact Group plan, the UN representatives refused to talk to the
> Bosnian and Herzegovinian Serb authorities. With no negotiations going on,
> the war once again took a turn for the worse.
> 
> 
> The preceding facts show there is little evidence of present Yugoslavian
> responsibility for the war, yet Yugoslavia suffered under the economic
> sanctions for four years. It is well known that the Croatian army was
> fighting in Bosnia against Muslims and Serbs, with no economic or any other
> sanctions. The US, in the manner of a colonial empire, underwrote the Croat
> & Bosnian Confederation which "legalized" Croatia's military involvement in
> the Bosnian war. The Serb people who were the main builders of Yugoslavia
> after both World wars are not allowed to be united. Last year, the Croatian
> army invaded the UN protected Serb territory in Western Slavonia, killed
> hundreds of civilians, and carried out total ethnic cleansing of the Serbs
> with no UN response. So this territory was not kept under the UN protection
> until problem could be solved through negotiations, but until Croatia
> succeeded in building an army in spite of the UN arms embargo. After that,
> the UN lost credibility in the eyes of Serbs who than occupied two UN "safe
> areas" in Bosnia from which the Muslims continuously attacked and killed
> the Serb people in the villages nearby. The Croatian government declared
> the Serb war success in Bosnia to be a "threat" to Croatia, attacked and
> took two Serb towns in Bosnia.
> 
> In Croatia itself, the present government has allowed and supported
> glorification of the country's nazi-fascist past. The WWII fascists,
> responsible for genocide against the Serbs, Jews, Gypsies and other people
> are back in Croatia today, some even in power. Although, a large number of
> Croats fought against fascism during WWII, a large number of streets are
> not called by their name any more, and thousands of their monuments were
> destroyed all over Croatia. On the other hand, the street name of the Croat
> fascist ideologist Budak appeared in the town of Split, and the name of the
> new Croat currency is Kuna used in the nazi-fascist Croatia. Everyone who
> has read the government-controlled Croatian newspaper or watched TV could
> easily see that the Croatian government has built the unity of the Croat
> people around its chauvinistic hatred of the Serbs. The Croatian president
> Tudjman said publicly that he was happy because his wife is neither a Serb
> or a Jew. The Croatian Minister of Defense Susak (a pizza salesman from
> Toronto) raised his hand publicly in a fascist salute to greet his army. In
> 1991, a five members of his body guard executed the family Zec with their
> fourteen year old daughter in the capital town of Croatia, Zagreb, only
> because they were Serbs. The killers admitted everything before the
> Croatian Court but were released because of alleged irregular court
> procedure.("Globus", Zagreb). This trial probably did not have intention to
> punish the killers but was a perfidious act which had to frighten the Serbs
> to get away from Croatia. Moreover, the Croatian president Tudjman gave a
> medal for the heroic act in war to Rimac who was one of the killers. The
> leader of Croatian regular volunteer forces Mercep was suspected for
> leading the execution of still not defined number of the Serb civilians in
> the town Gospic before the war but the investigation never started. It is
> not hard to imagine what happened later in the war. Everything I have
> written is well known or could be easily verified but the World repeatedly
> closed its eyes.
> 
> Because of that, last year the Croatian government mobilized 250,000 troops
> to capture the territory of the Serb Republic of Krajina, allegedly
> protected by the UN. With silent support of the US and Germany, the attack
> started. In this moment NATO destroyed the Serb radar system what was
> reported as a "mistake". The international community very concerned when
> the Yugoslav Army started to crush the Croat armed insurrection in 1991,
> was indifferent when the Serbs suffered the aggression. The Republic of
> Krajina had incomparably less inhabitants than Croatia and was exhausted
> after years of unjustified UN economic sanctions. The Yugoslav Army had
> pulled out of Croatia in 1991 with the signed obligation for the UN and
> Yugoslavia under the Vance plan to protect the Serbs in Krajina. Under the
> subsequent pressure from the UN, Yugoslavia did not protect them and the
> whole Serb population fled to Bosnia and Serbia. The UN failed to defend
> its protected area from the Croat attack and helped to arrange the exodus
> of the Serb people. In Croatia today remain probably less than ten percent
> of the 600,000+ Serbs, 12% of Croatia's population before the war, who
> lived there for centuries. This second Croat genocide against the Serb
> population in this century, was supported by the World's most powerful
> countries and the United Nations.
> 
> The UN involvement in Bosnia was similar. After the last massacre in
> Sarajevo, the Serb government denied responsibility and called for a
> independent investigation, but the UN representative quickly and
> "precisely" accused the Serbs for doing this from the place near the battle
> field. The Serb government did not have any motive. For the first time they
> were offered with the right to make the confederation link to Yugoslavia
> and they accepted negotiations. On the other hand, the Muslim government
> took benefit from the massacre because it would stop an unpleasant
> negotiation about future of Bosnia and NATO was definitely involved in the
> war on their side by massive air strikes and rapid reaction forces. Later
> on, ITAR-TASS informed that the chief of the UN staff in Sarajevo, colonel
> Andrej Demurenko had made his own investigation about massacre and found
> that the UN report was a forgery because the grenade could not be launched
> from the reported position.
> 
> The war in Bosnia stopped after the agreement in Dayton where the Serbs got
> 49% of Bosnian territory. If it had happened earlier the war probably would
> not started. The USA and Germany made a hefty contribution to the damage in
> this region by their disastrous leadership of the UN and the EU. Their
> contribution to the destruction of the former Yugoslavia created chaos.
> Their continuos double standard policy encouraged one side and pressed
> another, which extended the war and prolonged the suffering of the people.
> The result of their policy in the former Yugoslavia was an ethnically pure
> Croatia, a tragically split Bosnia and Herzegovina, multiethnic Serbia and
> Montenegro under economic sanctions, and the war. This kind of policy could
> also destroy the UN with unforseeable consequences.
> 
> I will not attempt to explain why the US and Germany have been doing this,
> although one could guess about it. Let their leathers explain us why have
> they taken their countries upon the road of support of the clearly neo-nazi
> Croatian regime and the militant Muslim clique of Sarajevo. Until they do,
> we should continue rising this question.
> 
> To solve the Yugoslav problem there is only one way to follow: all sides
> have to be treated equally. If the UN and World's leaders want to interfere
> in this conflict their position has to be neutral. They could exercise
> strong economic and political pressure on ALL sides in the conflict to obey
> the human right rules and to make a just agreement on all the future
> relationships in the region. Any other kind of engagement has failed and
> will fail again hurting all sides involved.
> 
> 
> 							Aleksandar Sarovic
>
AK:Try reading book from Borislav Jovic (that was very close friend of
   Milosevic,until this book came out) and than you would probably better
   understand what really happened and what was the cause for Slovenia,...
   to split from Yugoslavia.

LP Drug Mirko!

Hi, Everyone,
I am a Chinese and permanent resident of Canada.  I want to learn young and
well-educated Hungarian woman with deep tradition of morality.  age between
25-32. If anyone thinks she is very reponsible and has strong family value,
please reply.  We can talk details through the e-mail in English or in German

Some information that might be of interest to whom it may concern:


The new Chair of the Board of Governors at the University of Carleton
is Dr. Ivan Fellegi.

For more information, see the page at URL 

http://www.carleton.ca/cu/twac/fe1/s9.html
Interview: Meet Dr. Ivan Fellegi, Chair of the Board




For the administrative organisation at the Carleton University
(may be out of date), see:

gopher://ernest.carleton.ca:406/11/root-all/general/adoffices





Also on the Carleton University gopher:

Officers of Instruction, as of July 1, l996

Out of 19 Professors and Associate Professors at the School of 
Journalism and Communication, Carleton University, there is only one
with a BA degree (same level as Ms. Szurek's) and it is - Mr. George
Frajkor.  The rest have of course Masters and Doctorates.

Mr. Frajkor is signing his message with a baroque signature that states
he is at School af Journalism, that lead several contributors to express
their astonishment about his journalist qualities. In fact, this .sig
information is not correct. The correct name of the organisational unit
is "School of Journalism and Communication". 

Moreover, Mr. Frajkor is not a journalist, but according to the gopher 
information, he is specialised in "Animation and electronic techniques 
in television".

Perhaps the explanation why he is displaying such a level of ignorance
of the basic rules of scholar work (yes, FACTS !) and astonishing lack 
of just plain scientific ethics.





Mr. Frajkor is using the computer equipment of the University.

Mr. Frajkor has been caught deliberately spreading false informations
about listmembers (see a few recent articles in Slovak-L). Mr. Frajkor
is running a fascist mailing list. Mr. Frajkor is tolerating, approving
or even actively participating in deeds like defamation, expressions of 
racial and national hate, calls for intolerance. For more details, look
in Slovak-L.



Regarding the the policies of computer use at Carleton, Cf.  URL
gopher://ernest.carleton.ca:406/00/root-all/uni-policies/
Policies_regarding_Computers/onet

> Uses that fall under one of the following descriptions are, in
> general, not acceptable.
> 
> ( ... )
> 
> 3.  Uses that are considered by the ONet Management Committee to be
> malicious or unethical.
> 
> 4.  Uses that violate federal or provincial laws.



Just thought this information might be of interest to the Internet 
community.

Roman Kanala

In article >,  says...
> Dear Roman Kanala,
> 
> Thank you for your eloquent posting of August 30, 1996. It is extremely 
> clear the dilution  Mr. Frajkor is suffering of.
>  
> I am personally in process of locating members of the board of trusties 
> at University of Carleton, Ottawa. NAZI orientations like his are to be 
> isolated, curtailed and expelled from the society. It is hard for me to 
> believe that a young generation could end up studding in a place as the 
> University of Carleton under Mr. Frajkor's guidance. 
> 
> 
> A. Albu

Mr. Albert Albu,

as I wrote to you following your scandalous call for ETHNIC CLEAN-UP of 
Slovakia it would be better for you as Romanian to stay out of this. You 
suggested to ship all the Slovaks somewhere to Siberian woods - which is 
not your original invention, nonetheless it is hatemongering ethnically 
oriented. In spite of Mr. Kanala lengthy treatise on Slovak fascism I am 
still not convinced it's not you and Mr. Kanala who are fascists over here. 
You wrote to me, you did not understand Slovak and as some portion of the 
problem is discussed in Slovak over here you should stay out of that 
including your sweet suggestions of termination of Slovak permanent "visa" 
in YOUR new Europe.

Yours Sincerely

Peter Kmet

Istvan Szucs > wrote:
>
>All I said was that- in my opinion - there is a huge
>difference between being informed and living a reality. 

It looks like another of those fruitless debates with you, but since 
you are so representative of a certain mindset in and fresh out of
Hungary, here we go again ...

As to the subject, living in reality does not make one see better the way 
out of that reality.

>BTW You mentioned some sort of jealousy, as the reason
>for the antipathy against emigrees who live in the USA.
>Since currently I live in the USA as well - how can you 
>say that I would have such jealousy?

It's obvious that your mentality hasn't changed much during your short
stay here.  But given the fact that you were subject of brain washing
under Kadar's soft Communism much longer than the likes of me, you might
never change your attitude.

>Yet they are the ones who are affected primarily by the
>decisions made. 

So what?  Why is this only consideration in Hungary and a handful of
other countries?  Why do they have this default assumption that a
citizen abroad is bound to vote more irresponsibly than one at home?
What if those citizens plan to return home and want to make sure that
it will be a home worth to return to?  Or what if they still have loved
ones there and want them to live in a country worth to live in?
 
>And you want them to go somewhere else then they are
>currently going. So what you are claiming here that you (or
>Hungarian Americans) should have the control instead of
>Hungarians in Hungary,

This is a typical falsehood and misrepresentation you are known to
engage in debates here.  Having a legitimate desire for a voting
franchise by Hungarian citizens abroad is interpreted by you as having
the desire to control Hungary!  Do you really think that the diaspora
vote would be that substantial in the total vote?  You must be joking!

>because somehow folks in Hungary are
>making decisions that you don't agree with.

Why, what is voting about? Not about competing interests and about
platforms that differ from each other? 

> WHat more do you
>need to  show that there is a discrepancy between your views
>and those at home.

You bet I want to show it!  I think time has shown who was right and who
was wrong.

> Your opinion sounds condescending and
>elitist to say the least. This "I'll tell you what you want"
>is part of the reason I think people IN Hungary should make
>decisions for themselves.

And this is just an expression of somebody who deep-down knows he is
wrong, but would not admit it.  Instead, he wants to cricify the
messenger.  Those old Hungarian attitudes still prevail: "we know
better what to do and don't need any outside advise."  How is this
different than "Extra Hungariam non est vita, si est vita, non est ita"?

>Ilk? Third world status? ANd you claim to be in touch?

You have more of a problem than I thought.  It's obvious that you are
the one out of touch.  Haven't you noticed that Hungary's economy's
getting to be the laughing stock of the world?

Joe

In article > 
Peter Hakel > writes:
>From: Peter Hakel >
>Subject: Re: About Slovak fascism, general remarks
>Date: Sun, 1 Sep 1996 11:18:34 -0700

>On 1 Sep 1996, Michael Hajovsky wrote:

>> If you want to take up a crusade, work for the passage of something
>> resembling the first amendment into the Slovak constitution. God knows 
>> they could use it.

>The freedom of speech (sloboda prejavu) is included in the Slovak
>Constitution.

Good point - I think that Germany is much more democratic than Slovakia (it 
would be joke to call Slovakia democratic) and freedom of expression is 
included in German constitution, too. But promotion of nazi or fascist 
ideology is still illegal there - and Mein Kampf is not on bestseller list.

Rosta
 



 >Peter Hakel