On 18 Sep 1996 20:30:29 -0400,  (Stowewrite) wrote:

[.....]
>
>Question for our Hungarian-American brethren: Are all Hungarian college
>students studying in American universities as obtuse and arrogant as
>Zoltan or is he an aberration? From what I can gather, he's learned
>nothing from living in the U.S.
>Sam Stowe
>

Pardon me, Sam, but aren't you fighting WAY below your weight class?

Bandi


> =============================================================
      Andrew J. Rszsa - Birmingham, Alabama, USA
                 <mailto:>
> -------------------------------------------------------------
          Pain is inevitable. Suffering is optional.
> =============================================================

At 08:30 PM 9/18/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:

<snip>
>Joe Szalai works at a university in Ontario.
>I'm sure he'd be willing to mail you an admission application.
>
>Question for our Hungarian-American brethren: Are all Hungarian college
>students studying in American universities as obtuse and arrogant as
>Zoltan or is he an aberration? From what I can gather, he's learned
>nothing from living in the U.S.
>Sam Stowe

I'd  be more than willing to send Zoltan an application.  However our
requirements for math are tough.  We're the only university in Canada that
has a Faculty of Mathematics -- not just a department.  And we've had our
fair share of visiting faculty from Hungary.  I just don't know if Zoltan
can take it.  He might gag on the liberalism here.

By the way, Sam, I work at the University of Waterloo.  There is no such
animal as the "university of Ontario".  However, both Waterloo and Ontario
end in an "o", so I can understand your confusion.

Joe Szalai

Does anyone know where I can obtain a Hungarian Bible on this side of the
pond? A mailing address and/or phone number would be nice. Thanks in
advance.
Sam Stowe

Born to laugh at hurricanes.

At 08:30 PM 9/18/96 -0400, Sam Stowe wrote:

>Question for our Hungarian-American brethren: Are all Hungarian college
>students studying in American universities as obtuse and arrogant as
>Zoltan or is he an aberration? From what I can gather, he's learned
>nothing from living in the U.S.

        I hope not. And, by the way, I don't agree with Janos, who calls Sam
a "taho'." You mustn't forget the terribly derogatory terms Zoli used when
putting European civilization way above the American. Or European intellect
above the American. For good measure he added that only Europeans can
understand Europe and a lot of other ridiculous claims. I think the question
Sam poses--why is Zoli here if he thinks that America and American
universities are that inferior--is perfectly legitimate under the
circumstances. Unfortunately, this attitude is quite wide spread among
Hungarian graduate students here. I have encountered on the Internet quite a
few: they are newcomers here; they don't have a closely knit group of
American friends or family; they don't quite understand American history and
civilization; and they react to all this with voicing their own superiority
and their own "European heritage" which is infinitely superior to what they
have here. This is a fairly natural way to react a situation in which we
don't quite feel comfortable. We were like this forty years ago and I am
sure that we were equally insufferable. But there is one big difference
between those of us who came here forty years ago: whether we liked it or
not, we had nowhere to go. Today's disenchanted graduate students have a
choice: they can return to Hungary.

        Eva Balogh

In article >,  (George
Szaszvari) writes:

>.ah reckon dat's de troof, coz the US Mormons over here tell
>me that the true revelation of God happened in the US... ;-)


Negro dialect when referring to Mormons is particularly amusing since
Mormon theology didn't allow non-whites into heaven until a few years ago.
My advice when they show up on your doorstep, George, is to take the Book
of Mormon from them, then when they show up a week or two later to get it
back and sign you up, vehemently deny that you have it. My mother
collected a closet full of the things over a year or so using this
technique when I was a teenager. Mark Twain called the Book of Mormon
"chloroform in print."

>
>Hey, did you hear about the recent digging up of the remnants of the
>original 1607 Jamestown English settlement (pre-Mayflower) in Virginia?
>The local mayor (or whatever) reportedly made a speech about how it is
>the real cradle of modern US civilization..the guy must be an Anglophile,

>or something ;-)


Crummy Virginians! Typical of the bastards to always boast and brag.
Everyone knows the first English settlement in North America was on
Roanoke Island in North Carolina. It was Walter Raleigh's famous Lost
Colony. This is the same kind of snobbish behavior on their part that got
Virginian religious fanatic Stonewall Jackson shot by a North Carolina
regiment at Chancellorsville. At least it saved him from becoming a Mormon
missionary after the war ended.
>
>--
>George Szaszvari, DCPS Chess Club, 42 Alleyn Park, London SE21 7AA, UK
>Planet Earth, Milky Way Galaxy * ARM Club * C=64..ICPUG * NW London CC
>

Sam "Superior culture? We don' need no stinking superior culture!" Stowe


North Carolina -- A vale of humility
nestled between two towering
mountains of conceit.

In article >, 
(Andrew Rszsa) writes:

>Pardon me, Sam, but aren't you fighting WAY below your weight class?
>
>Bandi
>
>

He's useful for light sparring, Bandi, nothing more. Besides, I keep
hoping the boy will get some sense in his head eventually. I hate to give
up on our youth.
Sam Stowe

North Carolina -- A vale of humility
nestled between two towering
mountains of conceit.

One single question made Sam to sing a long and ugly little song
about Europe. Is this really the American culture? I doubt it.
It seems more like to be just another noisy Yankee with his low
quality, high level over-self-esteemed bullie-boy identity.
How characteristic...!!

The real issue is that Clinton needs a military victory before
the election. If the military technique kills, well, it is the
problem of another country. U.S servicemen is not going to be
killed.
                                                       (Sz. Z)

> In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> > writes:
>
> >
> >Sam:
> >> As I pointed out (...) the machinery is pretty much
> >> value-neutral. It takes human will and human genius to make it kill and
> >> maim.
> >Are you talking about the Desert Storm technique, which
> >is going to be reused by Clinton, or what? Just asking...
> >
> >                                                (Sz.Z)
>
> Think about this, Zoltan. Your precious European culture is responsible
> for starting two of the worst wars in human history during this century
> and imposing a miserable totalitarian concoction on Hungary and most of
> Eastern Europe for nearly half of that same century. Wow, what a track
> record! And having learned from their mistakes, the wealthier, supposedly
> more culturally advanced western Europeans showed real fortitude and
> courage in halting Serb aggression in Bosnia on their own. I guess it
> would be a bit impolite to point out that western European blather about
> human rights and preventing genocide inevitably only becomes a concrete
> reality when it's vouchsafed by American lives, as it is currently in
> Bosnia and was in Somalia. But what the heck, politeness is not my strong
> point.
>
> I still don't understand why you're wasting your time at an American
> university. A guy with your exquisite sensibilities ought to be haunting
> some Left Bank cafe, smoking Gauloises and talking earnestly about the
> philosophy of Fu'ko' Mihai. Just think -- France's gain would be our loss.
> Still, your departure from the University of South Carolina would free up
> a graduate post for some undeserving American untermensch. If not France,
> how about at least Canada. Joe Szalai works at a university in Ontario.
> I'm sure he'd be willing to mail you an admission application.
>
> Question for our Hungarian-American brethren: Are all Hungarian college
> students studying in American universities as obtuse and arrogant as
> Zoltan or is he an aberration? From what I can gather, he's learned
> nothing from living in the U.S.
> Sam Stowe
>
> Born to laugh at hurricanes.
>

Eva, you are a hopeless liar. You can not support any of your
claims by the adequate qoutes from me, I guarantee.

> You mustn't forget the terribly derogatory terms Zoli used when
> putting European civilization way above the American. Or European intellect
> above the American. For good measure he added that only Europeans can
> understand Europe and a lot of other ridiculous claims.
Actually, I claimed, that culturally challenged guys, as Sam,
can never understand cultural features. It is not my fault,
that Sam is an American.

Sam claimed, that Martin Heidegger, the German giant of the
philosophy of this Century is simply a "redneck" (whatever
does it mean). Sam accused the French entellectuels with
contributing to the horrible crimes of Pol Pot's communists.
He also linked Simone Weil with Ferenc Szalasi, which is a
laugh.

I can show you all the appropriate quotes from Sam, if you
want. That's what you, Sam and Mark would never be able to
do with my quotes. Simply, because you can not find such
quotes of mine. They don't exist. Nope.

I just dislike the slanderous character murdering, some
people prefer to do in this list. It seems to be their
favourite (only??) way of arguing.
                                                   Sz. Zoli

**********************************************************************

It's party time!

Young Hungarians' and Friends' Picnic in Washington, DC

Hungarian students and young professionals in the Washington, DC
Metropolitan Area cordially invite you and your friends to our annual
picnic. Join us for an afternoon of fun, food and music.

Date & Time: October 5, 1996, Saturday, 1:00 pm
Place: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC, outside of the Hungarian Embassy,
in case of rain the picnic will take place in the building of the
Hungarian Embassy (metro accessible)

If you are interested send mail to: 
or check out our web page at: http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/

This picnic is sponsored by:
Hungarian Embassy in Washington, D.C.
American Hungarian Educators' Association
UMCP Hungarian American Association

**********************************************************************

Buli van!

Washingtoni magyar fiatalok szeretettel meghivnak Teged es Barataid eves
piknikjukre. Lesz etel, ital es zene.

Mikor: 1996. oktober 5., szombat, 1:00
Hol: Rock Creek Park, Washington, DC, a Magyar Nagykovetseg epulete
mellett, eso eseten a Magyar Nagykovetseg epuleteben (metro a kozelben)

Tovabbi informacioert fordulj hozzank:
email:  
www:    http://www.glue.umd.edu/~hungaria/picnic/

Ez a piknik nem jonne letre a
washingtoni Magyar Nagykovetseg,
az Amerikai Magyar Tanarok Egyesulete es
a Maryland-i Egyetem Magyar Amerikai Diakszovetsegenek
segitsege nelkul.
**********************************************************************

.

Stowewrite wrote:

>
> Think about this, Zoltan. Your precious European culture is responsible
> for starting two of the worst wars in human history during this century
> and imposing a miserable totalitarian concoction on Hungary and most of
> Eastern Europe for nearly half of that same century. Wow, what a track
> record! And having learned from their mistakes, the wealthier, supposedly
> more culturally advanced western Europeans showed real fortitude and
> courage in halting Serb aggression in Bosnia on their own. I guess it
> would be a bit impolite to point out that western European blather about
> human rights and preventing genocide inevitably only becomes a concrete
> reality when it's vouchsafed by American lives, as it is currently in
> Bosnia and was in Somalia. But what the heck, politeness is not my strong
> point.
>
> I still don't understand why you're wasting your time at an American
> university. A guy with your exquisite sensibilities ought to be haunting
> some Left Bank cafe, smoking Gauloises and talking earnestly about the
> philosophy of Fu'ko' Mihai. Just think -- France's gain would be our loss.
> Still, your departure from the University of South Carolina would free up
> a graduate post for some undeserving American untermensch. If not France,
> how about at least Canada. Joe Szalai works at a university in Ontario.
> I'm sure he'd be willing to mail you an admission application.
>
> Question for our Hungarian-American brethren: Are all Hungarian college
> students studying in American universities as obtuse and arrogant as
> Zoltan or is he an aberration? From what I can gather, he's learned
> nothing from living in the U.S.
> Sam Stowe



> ---------------------------------------------------------
Just for the Record:

1. Without American Intervention in the 1st WW it would had not been:

National Socialism
Hitler
Gas Chambers and Death camps
Gulag
Miserable totalitarian concoction on Hungary

As far as liberating France, Germans were there before and they left.


2. Without British Intervention in the previous century.
Would had been no Prussia, we would have ten or more German
states the size of Holland probably part of and already unified Europe.


3. That's why America has a moral obligation for solving what it
has created, ethnic nightmares all over defeated Europe.

A. Albu

In article >, Barnabas Bozoki
> wrote:

>Some of the readers of Hungary may be interested to look up this little
>book (125 pages), written by a Philosophy Professor at University of Regina,
>Calgary. I really enjoyed reading this book which does not seem to have any

The University of Regina is not in Calgary, it is in Regina.

What is the sense of accomplishment that is supposed to be felt by thinking
you're prettier than the *ugly* American or smarter than the *dumb* European?

I agree with Szekely that much of Clinton's business in Iraq seems to have
election time motives... but the issue that originated this hostility seems
to be related with *European* imperialism and colonialism as they disrespected
the territories of others and divided the spoils among themselves. Please
correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems Iraq always felt slighted by having
'their' Kuwait cut away from them by the British. Hence, the previous invasion.

Although US America has done the same bullying to others (just look at South
America and the Phillipines), I fail to see how many Europeans could call them-
selves superior and any cleaner in the 'bullying' aspect... just ask Africa.

- Mark

>One single question made Sam to sing a long and ugly little song
>about Europe. Is this really the American culture? I doubt it.
>It seems more like to be just another noisy Yankee with his low
>quality, high level over-self-esteemed bullie-boy identity.
>How characteristic...!!
>
>The real issue is that Clinton needs a military victory before
>the election. If the military technique kills, well, it is the
>problem of another country. U.S servicemen is not going to be
>killed.
>                                                       (Sz. Z)
>
>> I hate to get into this fray,but Szekely is a little soft in his head.
I am not a Yanke,but a canadian.I do not love Americans,but I still holds
them above a lot of other nations,who can thank the Yanks,for lots of there
existence and bussiness and technologie and oil and a secure sleep at night.
The hatred what this person has against America would justify his expulsion.
Harsh words?Maybe,but to bite the hand wich feeds you is worst.
Andy.

 (Stowewrite) wrote:

>Does anyone know where I can obtain a Hungarian Bible on this side of the
>pond? A mailing address and/or phone number would be nice. Thanks in
try http://www.panbooks.com home page of  Hungarian bookstore in
Toronto. Good people.
Eva Kende B.Sc. author of "Eva's Hungarian Kitchen".

> Just for the Record:
>
> 1. Without American Intervention in the 1st WW it would had not been:
>
> National Socialism
> Hitler
> Gas Chambers and Death camps
> Gulag
> Miserable totalitarian concoction on Hungary
>
> As far as liberating France, Germans were there before and they left.
>
>
> 2. Without British Intervention in the previous century.
> Would had been no Prussia, we would have ten or more German
> states the size of Holland probably part of and already unified Europe.
>
>
> 3. That's why America has a moral obligation for solving what it
> has created, ethnic nightmares all over defeated Europe.
>
> A. Albu

I found the above posting very interesting.

1) Who knows what would have happened if American had not joined in WWI?? Where
   do you get your facts to make such broad generalizing conclusions????
   Actually, I thought the US American president Wilson wanted to have a strong
   League of Nations and a more lenient Treaty of Versailles, but France and
   Britain were fairly fixated upon demanding money and concessions from
   Germany...

2) That's an interesting observation. Can you clarify this? I thought
   politicians such as Bismarck and Hindenberg were instrumental in German
   reunification, but I'd seriously like to know the role Britain played.
   (ANYWAY, this second point above simply would illustrate that Europeans
   even mettle in each others affairs well enough without any help from Yanks!)

3) If America is responsible for creating ethnic nightmares all over defeated
   Europe, maybe Europeans should take more care to first take responsibility
   and care for their own homes. A defeated Europe came about not by having
   American imperialists invade Europe, but rather because Europeans were hatin
g
   Europeans it seems.  America was not very active in Ukrainian,
   Romanian, Serbian, Armenian politics for the last several decades... and
   I do not see how these people have flourished or faired any better than
   anyone else.  Many Serbs sure never seemed to need any Yankee to make
   them want to rape a Muslim or burn a Croat.

Thank you,

Mark

2)

Zoltan,

In your last posting you brought my name up again. You say I cannot find ap-
propriate quotes from you....

Well, when have I and why would I?  I think I said earlier that conclusions
can easily be made by reading your arguments and seeing parallels you bring
into the discussion. It is like having you say, "I hope you die today."...
and when I say you don't like me, you would reply: "Don't play games! I never
said I don't like you. You have to quote me those words!"

Furthermore, there really doesn't seem to be much value in so many of your
comments that there is nothing worth saving as quote material.

Sorry,
Mark

Some rumlings on the issue.

There should be some rules for this game. First of all cultures can be and
are different not only in countries but in some cases even in regions.
Different folks put different attributes into the culture "basket" thus
further changing the denominator. I have stayed out of this discussion for
a long time, but I have got a headache writing about plutonium
transmutation, so this is a rest from an even bigger and more real problem.
I have read discussion of government policy, food, tolerance, education
etc., issues by different contributors, all packed into the culture basket.

At the same time we are all victims of our individual experiences, so what
actually culture is has a different meaning for everyone. In my opinion, at
best we can safely say that cultures are different, they do not have to be
converted into a superiority/inferiority type classification. One's opinion
can (and often does) also change by being immersed in a culture for a
longer time than those derived just based initial observations.

Even today from some of my Hungarian compatriots I hear comments, that
there is more culture in Hungary because there are more opera performances
in Hungary than in whatever locality they live here.
At the same time many of these folks at best attended only the opera
kavehaz in Hungary. I live in Columbus OH where there is an opera company
(operating in the black) with nearly sold out performances. The quality is
variable - but it is so in most places. The opera here seats something like
a thousand people and in addition to Columbus one can see opera in
Cleveland and Cincinnati also. Thus the opera audience is pretty
proportional to that of Hungary if considered on a population and
geographic area basis. But here a much larger percentage of the population
can easily afford recorded (both sound and picture) operas and often listen
to an opera whenever they please. I know this is only one aspect of the
many in the basket, but the significant item is that one does not have to
be seen at the opera to enjoy it. It is not a status symbol. It is a
question of whether one likes it or not. The same thing can be said about
books, yes there is a plethora of junk books, that there is access to
almost any book one wants to read, even if it is through the library which
does not cost anything. The interlibrary loan service can get almost any
book published in the world.

I maybe picky, but to me, having paper in the toilet is also part of the
culture basket together with its cleanliness. I have seen that North
American amenity matched only by a few places in the world.

Education level at equal age is certainly not as good in the US in the
earlier stages than that of most of Europe. But once one gets to the
highest level of educational opportunity there is no match for the US.
That is what draws many scientists to US institutions.

However, the major difference (and the unstated reason behind many culture
complaints) has nothing to do with culture per se. It is very often a
personal comparative economic and status evaluation. Just because one is an
"educated" person in the US he or she does not have special privilages.
Someone else can have a superior economic position (not necessarily as a
global average). As an example a university professor can be a "special"
person in Hungary, but not treated with any particular deference in the US.
This lack of "status symbolism" often bothers people from Europe. The
"average Joe" is treated the same way as the person who thinks that he is
an "above average Joe". So he interprets that the lack of special respect
for him is a lack of culture.

I am also upset with the expectations of many citizens of European and some
Asian countries that the Us should pull out the hot chestnuts from the
fire. My basic question is why should my children be killed when yours are
safe? As an example Yugoslavia was made by France and England why is it a
US responsibility to assist the safety of its falling apart. I always laugh
when I read Seton-Watson's statement that it is the vile Hungarians who
prevented the Croats and the Serbs or the Czechs and the Slovaks living
lovingly together. Yes, I am an isolationist in many respect. Why is it
that the US gets blamed for staying out, entering or leaving (whatever it
happens to be) from any conflict? Why is it that many clamor for renouncing
the payment of Hungary's debt to the bank for example which has my
retirement fund? They were not complaining when without working more they
were paid better or could afford more "culture" from borrowed funds.

I suggest that when talking about culture, whatever we put into the basket,
we should discuss the differences without assigning superiority or
inferiority to anybodys culture.

Regards,Jeliko.

Lajos Monoki quotes and writes:


> >Eva, you are a hopeless liar. You can not support any of your
> >claims by the adequate qoutes from me, I guarantee.

> Congratulations: two Hungarians away from Humgary calling each others a
> liar. I feel like home :-).

Well, at least they did not call each other "bozgor" yet.


> Does it mean that Americans are forbidden to understand cultural features?

> Sometimes (reading this "conversation") I feel sorry being Hungarian. I
> don't know which culture is superior (I doubt there is a *superior*), but I
> think Zoltan would better choose a university in Europe (in Tirana, for
> example :-) - but at least he is away from Hungary for a while. (it's :-),
too)

What is wrong with the poor Albanians? Bucuresti maybe more suitable for some
folks.

> Zoltan remember: you are not a conqueror in the US, but a guest.


A sane comment from Szeged. I just left from there this past Monday. Maybe
next time we can have "friendly" chat.

Regards,Jeliko

A Albu writes:
> ---------------------------------------------------------
> Just for the Record:

> 1. Without American Intervention in the 1st WW it would had not been:

> National Socialism
> Hitler
> Gas Chambers and Death camps
> Gulag
> Miserable totalitarian concoction on Hungary

> As far as liberating France, Germans were there before and they left.


> 2. Without British Intervention in the previous century.
> Would had been no Prussia, we would have ten or more German
> states the size of Holland probably part of and already unified Europe.


> 3. That's why America has a moral obligation for solving what it
> has created, ethnic nightmares all over defeated Europe.

I strongly recommend a volume of History 101.

Regards,Jeliko.

Oh well, the western provinces are so far away from Ontario, just keep
sending taxes, don't bother us with details.

Regards,Jeliko

> In article >, Barnabas Bozoki
> > wrote:

> >Some of the readers of Hungary may be interested to look up this little
> >book (125 pages), written by a Philosophy Professor at University of
Regina,
> >Calgary. I really enjoyed reading this book which does not seem to have
any

> The University of Regina is not in Calgary, it is in Regina.

In addition I would like to state that not only does A. Albu need
to read history he must also stop taking those halucigens that he is on!
It is one of the craziest non-sense I have ever heard on thsi topic!

Too bad that you got out of bed this morning -- I guess you are going to
blame us for that too!

Perhaps back to Kindergarten for you Mr. Albu, you seem to have missed a
lot of basic training (like potty) as you just did some doo doo in your
own pants!
Peter Soltesz

On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, _JELIKO wrote:

> A Albu writes:
> > ---------------------------------------------------------
> > Just for the Record:
>
> > 1. Without American Intervention in the 1st WW it would had not been:
>
> > National Socialism
> > Hitler
> > Gas Chambers and Death camps
> > Gulag
> > Miserable totalitarian concoction on Hungary
>
> > As far as liberating France, Germans were there before and they left.
>
>
> > 2. Without British Intervention in the previous century.
> > Would had been no Prussia, we would have ten or more German
> > states the size of Holland probably part of and already unified Europe.
>
>
> > 3. That's why America has a moral obligation for solving what it
> > has created, ethnic nightmares all over defeated Europe.
>
> I strongly recommend a volume of History 101.
>
> Regards,Jeliko.
>

In article >, , perhaps
overdue for his medication, scrawls:

>Just for the Record:

Which record would that be, Al? The new Nirvana compilation? REM's latest?
Surely, you're not going to try to claim it's the historical record you're
talking about, are you? Why, that would require you to muster actual facts
to back up your assertions. Can you undertake that kind of careful
research and still foam at the mouth at the same time?

>
>1. Without American Intervention in the 1st WW it would had not been:
>
>National Socialism
>Hitler
>Gas Chambers and Death camps
>Gulag
>Miserable totalitarian concoction on Hungary


Dammit, I agree. Roosevelt's worst mistake ever was allowing the CIA to
install Hitler in the Chancellorship. And allowing Dow Chemicals to set up
the gas chambers -- shocking! You must admit, however, that the Rand
Corporation did one hell of a job in administering the Gulags and the
concentration camps under contract to the respective American puppet
governments.

>
>As far as liberating France, Germans were there before and they left.

Too bereft of context to even qualify as a pathetic mangling of history,
this statement's usefulness is confined to yet further evidence that your
pathology is progressing nicely.
>
>
>2. Without British Intervention in the previous century.
>Would had been no Prussia, we would have ten or more German
>states the size of Holland probably part of and already unified Europe.

Yes, yes, Dear God...You're onto it, man! It's the Queen of England's
fault! Not content to merely rule the waves, she also wanted Central
Europe under her plump thumb as well. Planning on voting for Lyndon
LaRouche this November, Al?
>
>
>3. That's why America has a moral obligation for solving what it
>has created, ethnic nightmares all over defeated Europe.

Yes, you Europeans managed to carefully avoid creating ethnic nightmares
all over the map for nearly two millenia. It took American genius and
know-how to turn that legacy of peace, love and understanding around in
less than a century. What a country! Kinda brings a tear to my eyes.
>
>A. Albu
Sam Stowe


North Carolina -- A vale of humility
nestled between two towering
mountains of conceit.

Dear George and group;

At 11:04 PM 9/18/96 GMT, you wrote:

>In article >,
 says...
>
>>None of them is superior: it's currently, and has been for the past couple
>>of hundred years, the U.S., of course!!! ;-)
>>And without a present or future, who would be around to worry about the
>> past,right? ;-)
>
>American civilization the most superior in Europe? As far as nowadays
>is concerned, you could well have a point! The UK as the long-time 51st
>state as well as being a stationary US aircraft carrier, Disney in Paris,
>US soaps, Dallas, Star Trek, CNN, etc, all over European TV, even the
>World Cup (soccer) in the USA (albeit won by a South American team),
>Independence Day in the cinemas, US troops in Bosnia, Hungary, etc, the
>visit by Tony Blair and some of his *New Labour* hierarchy to the US to
>knit closer ties with the Clinton administration.. an' y'all, waaal...
>doggone...ah reckon dat's de troof, coz the US Mormons over here tell
>me that the true revelation of God happened in the US... ;-)
>
>Hey, did you hear about the recent digging up of the remnants of the
>original 1607 Jamestown English settlement (pre-Mayflower) in Virginia?
>The local mayor (or whatever) reportedly made a speech about how it is
>the real cradle of modern US civilization..the guy must be an Anglophile,
>or something ;-)
>
Oh thank you, thank you, thank you for all this humor.  After yesterday I reall
y
 needed this.  Once I stop laughing so hard the keys quit bouncing I'll  manage
 a reply here.

OK now. No, I think the mayor probably thoroughly understood the character of
 the original settlers of Jamestown, looked around the U.S.--probably visited
 California too, and had it right--if you understand that neither the original
 Jamestown or the modern U.S. probably constitute high points in civilization,
 generally... ;-)

I frankly think my current HMO's managers are direct descendants of the
 gold-seeking, lazy and bungling adventurers of Jamestown, and 3 of my current
 HOA board members have to be descendants of Cotton Mather and his bunch in old
 pre-liberal Massachusetts.  You want the ultimate?  Get this, this is for real
:
 my HEALTH MAINTENANCE Organization's (HMO's) CEO is named "Mr. HYDE."
;-) :-(

Cecilia




N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

Dear Sam;

At 08:30 PM 9/18/96 -0400, you wrote:

>In article >, Zoltan Szekely
> writes:
>
>>
>>Sam:
>>> As I pointed out (...) the machinery is pretty much
>>> value-neutral. It takes human will and human genius to make it kill and
>>> maim.
>>Are you talking about the Desert Storm technique, which
>>is going to be reused by Clinton, or what? Just asking...
>>
>>                                                (Sz.Z)
>
>Think about this, Zoltan. Your precious European culture is responsible
>for starting two of the worst wars in human history during this century
>and imposing a miserable totalitarian concoction on Hungary and most of
>Eastern Europe for nearly half of that same century. Wow, what a track
>record! And having learned from their mistakes, the wealthier, supposedly
>more culturally advanced western Europeans showed real fortitude and
>courage in halting Serb aggression in Bosnia on their own. I guess it
>would be a bit impolite to point out that western European blather about
>human rights and preventing genocide inevitably only becomes a concrete
>reality when it's vouchsafed by American lives, as it is currently in
>Bosnia and was in Somalia. But what the heck, politeness is not my strong
>point.
>
Why Sam! Have you been reborn in that last hurricane??? Next thing we know=
 you'll be pointing out Sen. Biden's remarks about how the only security the=
 Security Council (and last I checked the U.S. was a member) has to concern=
 itself about is the "rights of the U.S., Britain and France in the Middle=
 East especially to protect their oil supply" and following the track record=
 out to the rights of the U.S., Britain, France, anywhere else in the world=
 to any other nation's resources under the most favorable terms to the=
 Security Council and to hell with the people in the country whose resources=
 are wanted by the Security Council members.  Can it be that you'll then be=
 pointing out all the anachronistic colonialist legacy borders that are=
 still causing all the fighting around the world that the French, Dutch,=
 British, etc. insist on maintaining--along with loans and investments that=
 only help produce cheap commodity exports to the Security Council members=
 and don't develop strong largely self-sufficient internal economies for=
 anyone else?=20
;-)

After all Biden isn't President, just a spokesperson who "sometimes gets it=
 wrong," right, and the U.S. totally ignored its British and French allies=
 and just jumped right in and helped in Bosnia even before a million=
 Bosnians got killed, maimed, raped or displaced.  And of course we have no=
 European cultural heritage or ties among our own people--especially not our=
 leaders, right?
;-)

Are you sure you didn't get hit in the head during that last hurricane? ;-)

Come on Sam, you can't be starting to sound like me. You have your own=
 wonderful reputation as the ultimate misogynist curmudgeon to uphold.  Take=
 two aspirin, mix a tom collins--heavy on the lemon--and try again.  There,=
 there, now.  Don't worry, I'll forget I read this all--eventually. :-)

Cecilia


N0BBS, Cecilia L. Fabos-Becker -  - San Jose, CA

At 10:21 PM 9/19/96 +0200,Lajos Monoki wrote:
>>Eva, you are a hopeless liar. You can not support any of your
>>claims by the adequate qoutes from me, I guarantee.
>
>Congratulations: two Hungarians away from Humgary calling each others a
>liar. I feel like home :-).

        Please show me when I called Zoli a hopeless liar? I simply said
that he said some pretty ugly things about the United States and Americans.
That can be easily verifiable from the archives of this list.

>Zoltan remember: you are not a conqueror in the US, but a guest.

        Well said.

       Eva Balogh

At 04:47 PM 9/19/96 EDT, Mark wrote:
>Zoltan,

>It is like having you say, "I hope you die today."...
>and when I say you don't like me, you would reply: "Don't play games! I never
>said I don't like you. You have to quote me those words!"

        This is an excellent example of some people's way of handling
discussions on our lists. This way they think they are off the hook. You may
not find the exact quote but the general impression remains. And they find
that hard to understand.

        Eva Balogh

Thanks to Jeliko for his excellent contribution on "superioristy
complex." I agree one hundred percent and I am especially happy that Jeliko
included some other facets of life into his culture basket, like aspects of
culture not often thought of:

>I maybe picky, but to me, having paper in the toilet is also part of the
>culture basket together with its cleanliness. I have seen that North
>American amenity matched only by a few places in the world.

        I certainly think that bodily culture also belongs to that basket we
call culture. How clean or dirty those public toilet are? How often we
bathe? How well we take care of our teeth? How well we take care of our
health? Surely, you must agree that America/Canada are pretty high up on the
list when it comes to such everyday needs of human kind.

        Eva Ba

ESB:
> You may not find the exact quote but the general impression remains.
> And they find that hard to understand.

Dear Eva, you at least tried to find the quotes. But never found
anything. Funny, huhh? You just don't have it, and you keep
accusing me by slanderous lies. Why? Why would you involve yourself
in a such a low game? Tell me, please.

Eva, you invented for us your notion of "general impression". The
fact of the matter is that you and your friends created this general
impression, nobody else. I don't even have the power to do so.

Just look Sam, how desperate he is. I quoted Simone Weil in the hope
that we may ease the tension generated by his slanderous lies against
me, and what did he answer? Tell me Eva, what did he answer? He ans-
wered by associating Ferenc Szalasi, the infamous Hungarian Nyilas-
Part leader and wartime criminal with Simone. Does it make any sense
to you, Eva? What is your "general impression" about this kind of
behavior?

Tell me, Eva, dear, what can I do about the general impression here?
The general impression here is the impression made forcefully by the
most powerful participiants. (The powerful, who can threaten by
making me to lose my job or by my expulsion from the United States.)
And this kind of "general impression" is impressed on us by a kind of
very typical entellectuel terror. Tell me Eva, what is my business
in this general impression stuff at all? I was publicly despised by
Sam, as a "college student". Now, how on the Earth could a "college
student" make any kind of general impression in this very respectful
international (not only HUNGARYan) discussion list?
                                                          Sz. Zoli

Kedves Monoki Lajos,

I answer you because you seem to be new in this list and I don't
assume that you belong to the "Gang", who play a very untasteful
game here against me.

> >Actually, I claimed, that culturally challenged guys, as Sam,
> >can never understand cultural features. It is not my fault,
> >that Sam is an American.
>
> Does it mean that Americans are forbidden to understand cultural features?

Is it really your understanding from the sentence above, Lajos?
I hope not. My sentence does not mean anything like that. I was
talking about Sam Stower. Not about "Americans".

Sam accused French intellectuels to influence the murdering of
3million people by Pol Pot. He is so pathological in his anti-
French sentiments (a kind of racism) that he associated Simone
Weil, the famous French Christian thinker with Hitler, Szalasi,
etc. He is  not a typical American. I'm pretty sure about this.

If you want to talk about American education, it is fine with
me. I just heard a couple of things from James Kennedy, a
famous television commentator and crusader about the problems
of public education in the USA. It is very interesting, I hope
there is some interest in this stuff in the list... (James
Kennedy is an American, and an excellent thinker. I have high
respect toward him.)

With my best regards:                                Sz. Zoli

I just love America!!
Andy is in the attack, too  ;-)                                      (Sz.Z.)

> I am not a Yanke,but a canadian.I do not love Americans,but I still holds
> them above a lot of other nations,who can thank the Yanks,for lots of there
> existence and bussiness and technologie and oil and a secure sleep at night.
> The hatred what this person has against America would justify his expulsion.
> Harsh words?Maybe,but to bite the hand wich feeds you is worst.
> Andy.

S.Stowe wrote:

>Think about this, Zoltan. Your precious European culture is responsible
>for starting two of the worst wars in human history during this century

Think about this, Sam. Assume that the northern neighbour of the US would be
Russia (with Stalin, Gulag, etc) and not Canada, the southern, let's say
the Third Reich (with SS, Hitler, etc) and for being a little bit mean,
instead of the Atlantic the US would have common border with Mao Ce Tung's
China. Do you think the abortus and those ...-ist problems would be the most
important issues of the american policy-makers? You know Sam it is easy to
blame somebody thousand of miles away from the trouble. However one can ask
why are those problems are far away from the US. This would be a good question
but I don't think the reason is the cultural difference.

>record! And having learned from their mistakes, the wealthier, supposedly
>more culturally advanced western Europeans showed real fortitude and
>courage in halting Serb aggression in Bosnia on their own. I guess it

Sam, can you imagine what would have happened if for example german soldiers
had appeared on the Balkan to halt the Serb aggression?

>would be a bit impolite to point out that western European blather about
>human rights and preventing genocide inevitably only becomes a concrete
>reality when it's vouchsafed by American lives, as it is currently in
>Bosnia and was in Somalia.

First, Somalia is a wrong example. As far as I know it was a failure and
the US action did not solve anything. I think it caused more harm to the
reputation of the US than good. Beside the Europians have not got the
military powers to do such kind of mission.
Second, I would be more cautious with Bosnia. You know I am not so sure
that the last gunshot of that war has been fired and it is easier to
enter the shit than to leave!

>I still don't understand why you're wasting your time at an American
>university. A guy with your exquisite sensibilities ought to be haunting
>some Left Bank cafe, smoking Gauloises and talking earnestly about the
>philosophy of Fu'ko' Mihai. Just think -- France's gain would be our loss.
>Still, your departure from the University of South Carolina would free up
>a graduate post for some undeserving American untermensch. If not France,
>how about at least Canada. Joe Szalai works at a university in Ontario.
>I'm sure he'd be willing to mail you an admission application.
>
>Question for our Hungarian-American brethren: Are all Hungarian college
>students studying in American universities as obtuse and arrogant as
>Zoltan or is he an aberration? From what I can gather, he's learned
>nothing from living in the U.S.

Reading these line of yours one can have some basic ideas why so many
people think the americans are ignorant 'taho'-s.

J.Zs

>Eva, you are a hopeless liar. You can not support any of your
>claims by the adequate qoutes from me, I guarantee.

Congratulations: two Hungarians away from Humgary calling each others a
liar. I feel like home :-).

>
>> You mustn't forget the terribly derogatory terms Zoli used when
>> putting European civilization way above the American. Or European intellect
>> above the American. For good measure he added that only Europeans can
>> understand Europe and a lot of other ridiculous claims.
>Actually, I claimed, that culturally challenged guys, as Sam,
>can never understand cultural features. It is not my fault,
>that Sam is an American.

Does it mean that Americans are forbidden to understand cultural features?

Sometimes (reading this "conversation") I feel sorry being Hungarian. I
don't know which culture is superior (I doubt there is a *superior*), but I
think Zoltan would better choose a university in Europe (in Tirana, for
example :-) - but at least he is away from Hungary for a while. (it's :-), too)

Zoltan remember: you are not a conqueror in the US, but a guest.


Over and out,

******************************
*       Lajos Monoki         *
*  NCR Hungary - CSS Szeged  *
* e-mail: *
*  Tel/Fax: +36-62-434101    *
*    Mobil: +36-30-584523    *
******************************


"Is all that we see or seem
But a dream within a dream?"
           Edgar Allan Poe