In article >,
cristian  > wrote:

I love it when someone volountarily gives up all
credibility. 
Congratualations for disqualifying yourself from all
meaningful conversations.

Istvan

The original message was received at Wed, 2 Oct 1996 17:27:34 +0200
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Date: Wed, 02 Oct 96 16:25:45 -0700
From: "I. Nadasdi" >
Organization: University of Liege
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Tisztelt levelezotarsak!

Koszonettel tartozunk a HAL es a HL onfelaldozo munkajaert. Hozzaszolasom indit
ekai 
epitoek, a rombolas vagy a megosztas szandeka tavolall tolem. A HAL aktiv munka
jaban 
az angol nyelv dominans hasznalata es az eros amerikai orientaltsag miatt tarto
ttam 
magam tavol. 

A HL lobbyzas eredmenye mint a roman-magyar "alapszerzodesnek" a felekre valo 
raeroszakolasa is mutatja nem volt az utobbi idoben eredmenyes. Mint (nyugat)eu
ropai 
magyar hive vagyok egy MAL listanak amely kepes a magyarnyelvu levelezok szeles
 
koret elerni. A lenyeg a resztvevok bazisanak fokozatos bovitese. Ezt egy MAL c
sak 
segitheti. 

Ha technikailag lehetseges szet kell valasztani a HAL-t et a MAL-t. Az is 
megyozodesem, hogy alkalomadtan a nemet, francia es termeszetesen spanyol nyelv
u jol 
iranyzott lobbyzasra is szukseg lenne. E nyelveket beszelo polgarok es sokszor 
politikusaik is sokszor jobban ertik az europai helyzetet es erzekenyebbek a ma
gyar 
problemak irant mint az Egyesult-Allamokban elok.

A magyar ugyben valo kuzdelemhez mindenkinek sok erot es szerencset kivanva mar
adok 
tisztelettel!

Nadasdi Istvan

Denes BOGSANYI > wrote:
>
>It was only after 23rd October 1944, when Horthy was deposed and Sallasy
>took over that the deportations were resumed.

Huh?  Most of the Hungarian Jews were deported in the summer of '44.  By
the end of October the Russian front was too near and the bombing too
heavy to have the means for it even if the will was there.

Joe

 (Istvan Szucs) wrote:

>| ----------------------------------------------------------
>| 
>| 
>| 	What fun! Did you enjoy pulling my article apart? Good work! And in
>| such little time too! You must really know your stuff, huh? On the
>| other hand, I'd  hate to think of you as doing nothing else all day
>| but  correct the politically uncorrect!  Such a  boring and useless
>| task...!


>Blah... did you intend to say something here? If  you did -
>try again.

>| 	While reading your reply,  I could  hear your voice in each and every
>| word you wrote,  I detect a terrible anger - you are actually yelling
>| at me! - , so much so, that you are unable to write properly,
>| therefore your spelling is really something else....!

>If that's how you choose to imagine me, it is entirely up to
>you. I will not interefere with your fantasies. 

>ONce again - if you intended to make a  point - try again..
>| 
>| Now then, Mr. Szucs, you wish to know the source of the quotation
>| below  which according to you  "It sounds great!"?  Here it is. [Chaim
>| Weizmann, World Conquerors, p.227 by L. Marschalko/Joseph Sueli Publ.
>| London, 1958]
>| 	Chaim Weizmann once stated:
>| >| 	"We are one people despite the ostensible rift, cracks and differences
>| >| between the American and Soviet democracies. We are one people and it
>| >| is not in OUR INTERESTS that the West should liberate the East, for in
>| >| doing this and in liberating the enslaved nations, the West would
>| >| inevitably deprive Jewry of the Eastern half of its world
>| >power."
>| - - -
>| But I do have other quotations from Mr Weizmann which you can find in
>| a book that will not be a reprint anymore:


>That's fine.. I've heard of libraries...

>| 	"In 1937, Dr. Chaim Weizmann, President of World Zionism, said of
>| Europe's six million Jews, 'They are dust in a cruel world. They must
>| meet their fate. Only a branch shall survive. They must accept it.'"
>| (Source: PERFIDY by Ben Hecht (p.149),  Julian Messner, Inc. New York,
>| 1961.]
>| 	[I only wrote this here because World Jewry today blames non-Jews for
>| not helping the European sufferers at the time! -TJ]
>| 	"On the Holocaust and on the Reaction," statement by Itzchak
>| Greenbaum, Chief of the Rescue Committe of the Jewish Agency,
>| addressed to the Zionist Executive Council on February 18, 1943 and
>| published in his book, Beeyemei Khurban Veshoah (In days of Holocaust
>| and Destruction), 1946: 
>| 	Itzchak Greenbaum, chief of the Rescue Committee of the Jewish
>| Agency, announced in Tel Aviv in 1943, "When they asked me, coudn't
>| you give money out of United Jewish  Appeal funds for the rescue of
>| Jews in Europe, I said 'No!' And I say again, 'No!' In my opinion one
>| should resist this wave which pushes the Zionist activities to
>| secondary importance." 
>| 	After this Ben Hecht: writes in his book: "Having thus turned their
>| backs on the doomed Jews, the same leaders later utilized the
>| extermination for raising millions on millions, and for collecting
>| billions in reparations from the Germans."(PERFIDY: p.50)
>| (Ben Hecht: PERFIDY, p.50 & notes on p. 258.)

>I cannot comment on this text. I have not read it, but I'll
>be sure to do my homework - hopefully this weekend and find
>out the truth behind it. It is completely contradictory in
>nature and intention to other, well documented speeches and
>letters of the same time, that can be confirmed from
>multiple sources. The text seems to be an obvious
>provocation, but I hope that I will be able to commit the
>time to check the source this weekend.
>| - - -
>| >SZUCS wrote: "SO what you are saying now is taht comminist were reluctant
>| >to let Jews leave because it would have hurt the USSr -
>| >isn't the same true of non Jews as well? So isn't being Jewish
>| >a onn issue here?" 
>| TOTH answers: You completley disregard the statement in my article,
>| that while for decades Jews were allowed to leave the Soviet Union
>| non-Jews were not! Therefore, since non-Jews were NOT  leaving the
>| Soviet Union,  "brain-drain" occured  only with Jews in
>question! 

>Let's reiterate your statement. You claim that evidence of
>the Zionists and Communists in the USSR working together is
>that Jews were allowed to leave the USSR at some point, (of
>course why they wanted to leave is a puzzle if they were the
>ruling elite), and the reason they were NOT allowed to leave
>was a supposed brain drain. Now a prevention of a brain
>drain is the reason Jews were not allowed to leave, and it
>was NOT the reason non Jews were not allowed to leave. 
>And this is what you claim that is not self contradictory...



>| SZUCS wrote: >Interesting,. I heard a very similar proclamation about
>| >Catholicism from South America... In fact athere are many
>| >many movies made about the collaboration ofthe catholic
>| >church with the Communists, including guerillas. BUt what
>| >does that prove?   Nothing!~
>| 
>| > Of couirse there are
>| >extreme left Jewish organizations - even today. But what
>| >is that supposed to prove? 
>| 
>| TOTH answers: Who said there was no collaboration? Have you ever heard
>| of infiltration into an organization - any organization or Church -
>| with the purpose of distroying it from the inside? 

>You are talking outside of historical context. YOu are usign
>the fact that there were many Jewish leaders among
>bolsheviks (of course you are conveniantly forgetting that 
>there weremany Jews in the anti communist  opposition as well being
>tortured for resistnace against communism), yet drawing no
>conclusions of the fact that is well knwong that in South
>America a great number of priests of the catholic church 
>against all odds and against great pressures and persecution
>of right wing governments supported the Communist church and
>opposition. 

>Many feelings that Communist played on were injustices of a
>society that were against Judeo Christian values. THis is
>what the statements you quoted from the WWI era suggest, and
>this is what the wide religious support for communism in
>SOuth America suggest as well.

>| Where have you been
>| in the past 50 years, sir? Of course there was collaboration with
>| Communists  in  the Catholic Church! There was, there still IS today
>| unfortynately and there will always be!!! [And we must not neglect the
>| Freemasons inside work either! 

>No.. the UFOs either. And  did you know that Santa Clause
>was red? Let's not neglect these important points either. 

>But more on this subject some other
>| time.]


>| But the moment anyone says: Bela Kun, Rakosi or Gero were Jews you
>| either say "Oh, they were not really Jews because they did not
>| practice their religion!" or you are ready to fire your red-paint  of
>| antisemitism-labeling  into  the face of anyone who dares to even
>| think otherwise!

>Why don't you give me the freedom to respond as I see fit. 

>Rakosi and Gero were Jewish the same way Radnoti, Hajos
>Alfred, Szenes, or many of the Hungarian Nobel Prize winners
>were. They were as Jewish as Kadar Janos was Christian, as
>Hitler was Christian, or Caucescu was Christian. 
>I have no problem with acknowledging that these people had
>Jewish oriogins, as long as you have no problem
>acknowledging that these people 
>1) Tortured Jews and non Jews equally.
>2) That democratic resistance included Jews and non Jews
>alike. 

>I don't think anyone would call you an antisemite if
>together with these murderers who were Jewish you would 
>acknowledge Jews many martyrs and tortured to death
>many forced in forced labor camps to Recsk. Many all their 
>properties taken away from them first by the Nazis then by
>the Communists. This is what is required to show a balanced
>view.


>| 	And what do I wish to prove with all this... you ask? Absolutely
>| nothing, except maybe sensatize you and others that THERE IS  an other
>| side to every coin, eventhough you like to put your head in the sand
>| and repeat what you were told to say! 

>I was not told to say anything. Everythign I say here I say
>because I believe it. If you hold the views you express you
>might  as well give me the same benefit of the doubt. I
>could theorize about what leads you to the arguments you
>make, butf irst of all they speak for themselves, secondly
>these theories are immaterial.. What you say is either true
>or untrue, either misleading or not, etc. WHy you say them
>is immaterial.

>I would recognize your way of
>| thinking anywhere, because it is programmed to be
>politically correct.

>That is your view. You are entitled to it. 

>| 
>| 	And if you remember, I did not write about the Catholic Church in the
>| first place but Ilya Ehrenburg! All in good time I will get to the
>| Catholic Church too,... but you will not like that either!

>You have long stopped writing about Ilya Ehrneburg. You and
>I and everyone else knows that. BEfore you forget, the
>Catholic church was brought in to show that if the bogus
>arguments you were using to make this point held then the
>same claims could be made about the Catholic church as
>well. In fact they are incorrect about Judaism and Catholicism.

>| - - -
>| 	Upon  quoting the Soviet Constitution I am glad that you noticed the
>| laws that say one thing for  propaganda, but nothing else. You wrote,
>| that although "Soviet Jews were prosecuted and sent to Siberia." But
>| did you notice that right until this very day NOT ONE MOSCOVITE HAS
>| BEEN PROSECUTED FOR his crime committed against  the
>Jewish people?
>| How come? Or the killing and torturing  of Soviet Jews is less of a
>| crime than that of Hitler? A crime is a crime, is it not? But of
>| course you wouldn't notice such minor detail  now would
>you?

>DO you really fail to see the difference between Hitler's
>policies of exterminating the Jews and Stalin's policies
>that did not target the Jews specifically? (They did target
>Zionists, and anyone opposed to him.Did you once again try
>to use Zionist and Jew interchangably?) There is really no
>reason to prosecute Stalin and his followers for atrocities
>against Jews. The detail you mentioned is not just minor it
>is completely a non-issue. Stalinist crimes have been
>largely unprosecuted, whether against Jews or Armenians etc.
>What is that supposed to prove.

>| - - -
>| 	"Many Zionists who were sent to Siberia just because they were
>| Zionist" - you wrote. Do you refer to Andrej Sakharov the
>| atom-physicist? 

>No.. Sorry you had to write the following paragraphs
>(clipped_ completely in vain)


>| 	I know of at least a dozen Jewish historians whose works are only
>| available through the socalled "right-wingers". And when we quote from
>| them, you and your brethren say that they are Jew-haters or worse..
>| ANTI-SEMITES! Now, really!.......... 

>1) I did not make such a claim. 2) The fact that something
>was written by someone who is Jewish does not neccessarrily
>mean it is accurate, or unbiased. Your statement above was
>once again --- vacuous.

>| 	I suspect that it is your terrific anger and intolerance toward those
>| who think and talk differenly from you that prevent you from really
>| seeing the world for what it is. What a shame, you are really missing
>| a whole lot... With a little chutzpah you can do a lot
>better! 

>Thanks for your confidence in me, also thanks for trying to
>save me from my warped vision of the world. I appreciate the
>concern for all you believe I am missing out on. Alas, you
>have proven that are the biased observer - evidenced by the
>numerous instances you have attempted - WRONGLY - to put
>words in my mouth. Unfortunately this is further evidence
>that 1) Your simplistic view of the world does not hold. 2)
>Your statements are based on assumptions and prejudices
>about my points and my thinking which 0 as evidenced above
>often mislead you... Now which one of us has  adogmatical
>way of thinking?


>| SHALOM
>| Judit Toth, editor of 24. ORA
>| http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth

>Almodjon szepeket,
>Istvan Szucs

Tisztelt levelezotarsak!

Koszonettel tartozunk a HAL es a HL onfelaldozo munkajaert. Hozzaszolasom indit
ekai 
epitoek, a rombolas vagy a megosztas szandeka tavolall tolem. A HAL aktiv munka
jaban 
az angol nyelv dominans hasznalata es az eros amerikai orientaltsag miatt tarto
ttam 
magam tavol. 

A HL lobbyzas eredmenye mint a roman-magyar "alapszerzodesnek" a felekre valo 
raeroszakolasa is mutatja nem volt az utobbi idoben eredmenyes. Mint (nyugat)eu
ropai 
magyar hive vagyok egy MAL listanak amely kepes a magyarnyelvu levelezok szeles
 
koret elerni. A lenyeg a resztvevok bazisanak fokozatos bovitese. Ezt egy MAL c
sak 
segitheti. 

Ha technikailag lehetseges szet kell valasztani a HAL-t et a MAL-t. Az is 
megyozodesem, hogy alkalomadtan a nemet, francia es termeszetesen spanyol nyelv
u jol 
iranyzott lobbyzasra is szukseg lenne. E nyelveket beszelo polgarok es sokszor 
politikusaik is sokszor jobban ertik az europai helyzetet es erzekenyebbek a ma
gyar 
problemak irant mint az Egyesult-Allamokban elok.

A magyar ugyben valo kuzdelemhez mindenkinek sok erot es szerencset kivanva mar
adok 
tisztelettel!

Nadasdi Istvan

On 2 Oct 1996, Istvan Szucs wrote:

> I love it when someone volountarily gives up all
> credibility. 
> Congratualations for disqualifying yourself from all
> meaningful conversations.
> Istvan

I am sure that your veiled hate of Romanians and the spreading of poison 
qualify you plenty for 'meaningful conversation' !

Lucky we only have a few anuses like you and Mr. Albu spreading their
noxious writings around. Else Transylvania would be worse than Bosnia
by now.  

m. cristian

Me gustar=EDa saber si existe alguna traducci=F3n francesa, inglesa o 
italiana del poema de Mih=E1ly Babits "J=F3n=E1s k=F6nyve" (1938). Y en caso 
afirmativo, d=F3nde la puedo encontrar. Muchas gracias por vuestra ayuda.


I'd like to know if there exists any English, French or Italian 
translations of Mih=E1ly Babits' poem "J=F3n=E1s k=F6nyve". If so, I'd also lik
e 
to know where I can find it. Thank you very much for your help.



>

Me gustar=EDa saber si existe alguna traducci=F3n francesa, inglesa o 
italiana del poema de Mih=E1ly Babits "J=F3n=E1s k=F6nyve" (1938). Y en caso 
afirmativo, d=F3nde la puedo encontrar. Muchas gracias por vuestra ayuda.


I'd like to know if there exists any English, French or Italian 
translations of Mih=E1ly Babits' poem "J=F3n=E1s k=F6nyve". If so, I'd also lik
e 
to know where I can find it. Thank you very much for your help.



>

On Tue, 1 Oct 1996  wrote:

> Poetician1 wrote:
> > 
> > In article >,
> >  says...
> > I don't believe I'm reading this from you. Have you become a closet liberal
?

> I am not a liberal. I just fell that all nations have equal rights, and 
> when one was is in distress it needs attention. 

Dear mr. Feher, please rest asured that he does not mistake you for a 
liberal. You are very obnoxiousely a dickhead, it is quite obvios !
Then again, he was not commenting about your esteemed falusness, but about
myself. So much for being alert ! Wake the fuck up before you start
casting your moronic lines over the net ;

I just wonder why the Romas themselves do not participate in the discussion?
> A. Albu

Because they dirty, cocksucking parasites that don't even care to educate
themself to the degree that would enable them to post here, and please
the kind of rotten, doublespeaking class of fagots that you so prodly
represent as a specimen. A sad joke for a human being. 

Over the years I learned one thing, 'Arbeit macht Frei' !  All the
thieving gypsie parasites should be banished to Hungary, or impaled
outright. Hell, Vlad the Impaler still has something to teach us about
justice.  Personaly, I would give such a prick as you are, a very high
place in this forest of justice.

Heck, what is a magyar after all but a gypsie of poor quality, you should
honored for the priviledge of being impaled upon a taller stake than most.  


up yours too,
m. cristian

As I already pointed it out:

/>You keep repeating the same stuff over and over.
/
/Because the truth is the truth is the truth

I agree, but you are wrong anyway.

/                       -- you are incapable of
/creative, inventive wordplay.
           ^^^^^^^^^
If it's true, it makes two of us.

/>And you call yourself original.
/>Or creative.

/I'm the one with the published books. I'm the one with reviews from other
/attesting to my originality and creativity. Tsk tsk for you Mr Clichette.

No, you are not THE one. You may be one.

/>You're pathetic.
/
/Only to those who wallow in the vanilla pudding of banality.

Rather those who have more scientific wisdom of the World, than you can
dream of. Or art for that matter.

/>Which he loose. And he also proved himself to be a very poor loser.
 /         ^^^^^
 /              \
 /               you mean lost don't ya buttsurfer
 /
Yes, I meant lost. Thanks. And I use my feet and legs to stand on a
surfboard. But how would you know that? You feel that you're loosing
again, that's when you usually resolve to namecalling. Pathetic.

/>BTW.: You confuse insult with wordplay. If you don't remember, read Wally's
/>post on Budapest being a gay resort. That's the beginning.
/
/After which Gayorgy Kovacuous whined about the abusive wit applied to his
/name.

Translation: I called it a childish insult which it was.

/In any event, just because you are not so knowledgable about gay matters
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^ wordplay?
You are farting in the wind without having any knowledge.

/(defective gaydar) doesn't mean you can make a knowledgable statement about
                                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^ must be wordplay
/Budapest not being a great stopover for gays. They would certainly avoid
/Romania like a meningitis plague that it is.

That's a lie again. I said Budapest was not a gay resort, and that was
correct. Just because there are some criminals in Toronto, that does
not make it 'Sin City'

/>>Take note Joe, there is no word play in his post -- he is simply incapable
/>>of being inventive in this regard.
/>                    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  Like this is the only way to be
/>                                    inventive
/>                                    Only for you.
/
/It is only ONE of my ways. But your are too one dimensional to see
/otherwise.

You failed to show it so far. Lets see:
You twist words because you don't know enough ones.
You lie because the facts are against you.
You resolve to name calling, because that's your level.
Creative? No. Original? No.

/>
/>Re-read Joe's post. You obviously did not get his point.
/
/Nor did you since he is jumping on YOUR incompetence, not mine.

You still did not get his point (or mine for that matter).

/The only way you can defend your uninventive posts compared to me is to
/define my word plays as mispellings. Others recognize it for what it is --
                         ^^^^^^^^^^^\That's a good wordplay,
                                     to misspell misspell! Excellent!
/wordplay.

Others? You make me laugh.

/Poetician1 > wrote:
/>
/>Nor did you since he is jumping on YOUR incompetence, not mine.
/
/OK, guys, let's not replay the same duel again.  It makes me feel bad
/that I gave the reason for it.
/
/Joe

No need to feel sorry, Joe. My hot oil and his brain-water just does
not mix.

Hey Wally,
I see you can't read either. If you post it in the newsgroup anyway
there is no need to put junkmail in my mailbox.

Regards to Joe

Nice try Wally

GK

>    (Charles R.L. Power) writes:
>  From time to time we see quotes from Russian-Jewish writer Ilya
>  Ehrenburg encouraging atrocious behavior against Germans. I was
>  looking through an issue of NEW REPUBLIC a few days ago and noticed
>  a review of a new biography of Ehrenburg, who seems, like Zamyatin,
>  to have enjoyed a curious immunity from Stalin's purges. The
>  review mentions that certain words of Ehrenburg circulated by the
>  "right wing", urging vengeance against Germans, are in fact a 
>  forgery. 
>  
>  Can anyone out there post Ehrenburg's anti-German exhortations 
>  together with a checkable primary source? If not, I think we 
>  should all assume that such quotes are bogus.
>  ========================================================

THOSE WHO ASKED ABOUT EHRENBURG... SO,  HERE IT IS!

	THE STRANGE LIFE OF ILYA EHRENBURG
Ilya Ehrenburg, the leading Soviet propagandist of the Second  World
War, was a contradictory figure.
	A recent article in the weekly Canadian Jewish News sheds new light on
the life of this "man of a thousand masks." /Rose Kleiner, "Archives
to throw new light on Ehrenburg," Canadian Jewish  News [Toronto], 17
March, 1988, p.9./
	Ehrenburg was born in 1891 in Kiev to a non-religious Jewish family.
In 1908 he fled Tsarist Russia because of his revolutionary
activities.
	Although he returned to visit after the Bolshevik revolution, he
continued to live abroad, including many years in Paris, and did not
settle  in the Soviet Union until 1941.
	A prolific writer, Ehrenburg was the author of almost 30 books. The
central figure of one novel, The Stormy Life of Lazik Roitschwantz, is
a pathetic "luftmensch," a recurring character in Jewish literature
who seems to live "from the air" without visible means of support.
	As a Jew and a dedicated Communist, Ehrenburg was a relentless enemy
of German National Socialism.  During the Second World War, he was a
leading member of the Soviet-sponsored Jewish  Anti-Fascist Committee.
	[At fund-raising rallies in the United States for the Soviet war
effort, two leading members of the Committee displayed bars of soap
allegedly manufactured by the Germans from the corpses of murdered
Jews.]
	Ehrenburg is perhaps most infamous for his viciously anti-German
wartime propaganda. 
	
	In the words of the Canadian Jewish News:
	 "As the leading Soviet journalist during World War II, Ehrenburg's
writings against the German invaders were circulated among millions of
Soviet soldiers." 
	His article appeared in Pravda, Izvestia, the Soviet military daily,
Krasnaya Zvezda ["Red Star"], and in numerous leaflets distributed to
troops at the front.
	In one leaflet headlined "Kill," Ehrenburg incited Soviet soldiers to
treat Germans as sub-human. The final paragraph concludes:
	"The Germans are not human beings. From now on the word German means
to use the most terrible oath. From now on the word German strikes us
to the quick. We shall not speak any more. We shall not get excited.
We shall kill. If you have not killed at least one German a day, you
have wasted that day... If you cannot kill your German with a bullet,
kill him with your bayonet. If there is calm on your part of the
front, or if you are waiting for the fighting, kill a German in the
meantime. If you leave a German alive, the German will hang a Russian
and rape a Russian woman. If you kill one German, kill another - there
is nothing more amusing for us than a heap of German corpses. Do not
count days, do not count kilometers. Count only the number of Germans
killed by you. Kill the German - that is your grandmother's request.
Kill the German - that is your child's prayer. Kill the German - that
is your motherland's loud request. Do not miss. Do not let through.
Kill." [Alfred de Zayas, Nemesis at Potsdam (London: Routledge & Kegan
Paul, 2nd edition, 1979), pp.65-66, 201; and, Erich Kern (ed.),
Verheimlichte Dokumente (Munich: FZ-Verlag, 1988), pp. 260-62,
353-55.]

	Ehrenburg's incidentary writings certainly contributed in no small
measure to the orgy of murder and rape by Soviet soldiers against
German [...AND HUNGARIANS!!! -J Toth] civilians.
	Until his death in 1967, "his support  for the Soviet state, and for
Stalin, never wavered," the Canadian Jewish News notes. His loyalty
and service were acknowledged in 1952 when he received the Stalin
Prize.
	In keeping with official Soviet policy, he publicly criticized Israel
and Zionism. The Canadian Jewish News further writes:
	"...the recent disclosure that Ehrenburg arranged to transfer his
private archives to Jerusalem's Yad Vashem library and archive, while
still alive, comes as a stunning revelation. The reason this
information has come to light only now is that Ehrenburg agreed to
transfer his archive on condition that the transfer, and his will,
remain secret for 20 years after his death. On Dec. 11th 1987, with
the 20-year period expired, Israel's daily MAARIV related Ehrenburg's
story..."
	The collection includes material about the important wartime Jewish
partisan movement. Among  the documents in the collection is one
concerning a pogrom in Malakhovka, a village near Moscow, which took
place in 1959.
	This new revelation about one of the most influential figures of the
Stalinist regime shows that, whatever he may have said for public
consumption, Ehrenburg never privately disavowed Zionism or ever
forgot his ancestry.
			* 
[The above article was written by Mark Weber in The Journal of
Historical Review, Vol.VIII, #4 - Winter, 1988-89. p.507.]
> =================================================================
Welcome to the 24TH HOUR [24.ORA] Hungarian Homepage	
,http://www.infobahnos.com/~jtoth>;
> ================================================================

I'd like to know if there exists any English, French or Italian 
translations of Mih=E1ly Babits' poem "J=F3n=E1s k=F6nyve". If so, please tell 
me 
the place I can find it. Thank you very much for your help.

Me gustar=EDa saber si existe alguna traducci=F3n francesa, inglesa o 
italiana del poema de Mih=E1ly Babits "J=F3n=E1s k=F6nyve" (1938). Y en caso 
afirmativo, d=F3nde la puedo encontrar. Muchas gracias por vuestra ayuda.


I'd like to know if there exists any English, French or Italian 
translations of Mih=E1ly Babits' poem "J=F3n=E1s k=F6nyve". If so, I'd also lik
e 
to know where I can find it. Thank you very much for your help.



>

I would like to know if there is any English, Italian or French 
transtalions of Mih=E1ly Babits' poem "J=F3n=E1s k=F6nyve". If so, please tel m
e 
the place I can find it. Thank you for your help.


>

Note: The posts were getting enormous with little new
content, so I went back and erased some text from the posting for
readability. I only erased text that I consider to be
irrelevant. If Judith Toth disagrees with their relevancy I
am sure shee will let us know .

In article >,
Istvan Szucs > wrote:
| In article >,
| Judith Toth > wrote:
| | | =======================================
| |  (Istvan Szucs) wrote:

| | 
| | TOTH: No, YOU ARE  forgetting the Jews prosecuted by Communists! I
| | happened write that Jews who were prosecuted and tortured by
| | Communists are a non-issue today! And I also asked how is this
| | possible? Torture is always torture is is not? Regardless who performs
| | it! The difference is that while Mr. Wiesenthal spend all of his time
| | on chasing 90 year old ex-nazis, Communists are never put to trial for
| | torturing Jews!
| 
| And neither are Armenians... so what does that prove? 
| Nothing!
| The Wiesernthal center  is a private institution that has 
| a mission with a limited scope. Noone ever claimed that they
| will go after all injustices that happened and happens to Jews. 
| This is a non-issue. 
| Also - The crimes were also not against jews
| specifically. They were crimes, and they should be
| prosecuted, but since they are not crimes specifically
| commited against Jewry it's not clear that Mr Wiesenthal 
| would be the right person to deal twith it.



|  And this is really weird! 
| 
| Maybe to you it is, but the fact that an organziation has a
| limited scope is prerfectly natural otherwise. 
| 
| | Zionist" - you wrote. Do you refer to Andrej Sakharov the
| | atom-physicist? 
| 
| 
| No. I am not referring to Andrei Sakharov. This is what I
| said the last time as well. BTW I am not aware of cutting
| this out of your article. I responded the same the previous
| time. I cut out what followed it because since I aws not
| referring to Sakharov it was irrelevant. 
| 
| Well now, his wife Yelena Bonner served in Italy for
| | 40 years as an  agent  of the KGB. [I'll give you the source because
| | you will ask for it again: this little piece of info. was reported by
| | THE  EUROPEAN weekly a few years ago.] Yet she came to Canada and the
| | media gave her the royal treatment because "she has suffered so much
| | in Soviet Union". Sakharov was sent to Siberia because of his
| | extensive knowledge and inside secrets of buildig an atomic bomb! 
| | 	Did it really bother you that much, or it is  - with your words "a
| | non-issue"? ...Very interesting, ...  you had nothing to
| say about it!
| 
| 
| Of course I have nothing to say about it.  It is a non
| issue. It is irrelvant since it was not Sakharov I was
| referring to. This is why it is a non issue. 
| BTW The same story is true abotu Solzhenitsin as well. He
| was working for the KGB and got a roayal ttreamtent and a
| Nobel prize here for his suffering. 

| | 
| | TOTH: Are you listening to yourself? You are the one who FAILS utterly
| | and is full of contradictions...  According to the politically correct
| | view "Stalin was an antisemite, who killed  the  Jewish doctors." Now
| | was he a Jew-hater or not? Was he anti-Zionist or not? 
| 
| He was anti Zionist. I did not say he was an anti
| Semite. He may have been. That however is not an issue.
| He killed Jewish Doctors, and persecuted religious Jews, as
| he did religious Christians as well. My answer remains
| valid.
| 
| 
| | 	You say "there is really no reason to prosecute Stalin and his
| | followers for atrocities against Jews." WHY NOT? More than 100 million
| | people died because of Communism and you say there is no reason to
| | prosecute? 
| 
| No. I said that there is no reason to Prosecute sStalin
| specifically for atrocities against Jews. Do you fail to
| comprehend the difference between what you just said and
| what I said. 
| 
| Of course if the 100 million were all Jews,... then it's a
| | different story is it not?

| Sure it would be. Then there could be a reason to
| specifically pr osecute for atrocities against Jews. This
| way there is n reason to prosecute for atrocities against
| Jews. Which of course is nt the same as saying no reason to prosecute.
| 
| rding to your the crimes of Stalin and
| | his followers is less then minor and it is such an non-issue that even
| | a five year old can see your contradictions when you bring up how
| | "Jews as well  along with Christians were tortured and put into
| | Communist concentration camps." Perhaps this is the reason why the
| | leaders of Hungary's Jews say: "Kun Bela, Szamuelly Tibor and his gang
| | were not really Jews because they did not practice their
| faith." 
| 
| 
| I don't know who says that.I disagree with them. I think
| they were Jewish just as (or not even as) the Italian Maffia
| is Roman Catholic. Their rRoman Catholicism is a non issue.

| | 	But let us clear the air:
| | 	When the Bolsheviks took over Russia in 1917, they sought to impose
| | their way of thinking on the entire Jewish population. As Jews, the
| | Bolsheviks adhered to the belief that Jewish nationalism should be
| | preserved, but they believed it should be orientated
| toward communism.
| 
| This may be true for some Communists, but this is not at all
| general. Most commusists before and even shortly after 1917
| had illusions. This was true whether they were Jewish or
| not. They believed that it will be a system that will
| benefit all, and including them. THis is true about
| lots of Communists Jewish or non Jewish. Many iof these
| people btw  became the most vocal opposition in the 1920s.
| (Bulgakov is a good example)
| 
| | The Communists regarded Zionism as an IMPRACTICAL SCHEME, 
| 
| Not accurate . Communists regarded Zionism as a form of
| imperialism and  national fanatism, and what that means for Communists is
| obvious from  Marx among other sources. Judaism (as
| Christianity) as the opiate of the people.
| 
| wedded to
| | British imperialism and impossible of achievement. The Zionists,
| | consisting of the more religious and orthodox Jews, 
| 
| This is not true. The Zionists and the Orthodoxy are two
| clearly distinct groups. In fact many of the Orthodoxy are
| anti Zionist because they believe that the State of Israel
| can only be established after the Messiah comes -as you 
| yourself mention later. 
| 
| stubbornly
| | resisted this idea. As a result, the Communist Party established a
| | special Jewish section to deal with the Zionists. 
|
| We all know what it means when the Communist party deals
| with you don't we?
| Anyway - this is equally misleading. Among religious and orthodox jews
| there was great resistance to Communism - for the obvious reasons.
| This is supported by a lot of the lieteature ofthe time. -

| | They attempted, with
| | only partial success, to win over the children of the Zionists by
| | prohibiting the teaching of Zionism to children under twenty. Now
| | before labeling this as "anti-Semitism",
| 
| No.. I would lable it more accuratley  as anti Zionism.
| 
| | these were measures imposed by one section of Jewry upon
| other Jews,
| 
| THis statement is misleading and untrue. It was not
| imposed by one section of the Jewry.
| 
| | and it should be remembered that Christians received no such
| | preferential treatment.
| 
| What is the such" preferential  treatment" referring to?
| 
| | SZUCS: Why don't you give me the freedom to respond as I see fit. 
| | TOTH:  Naturally, I give you all the freedom you need or
| wish.
| 
| Thank you.
| | SZUCS: Rakosi and Gero were Jewish the same way Radnoti,
Hajos

| | >Alfred, Szenes, or many of the Hungarian Nobel Prize winners
| | >were. They were as Jewish as Kadar Janos was Christian, as
| | >Hitler was Christian, or Caucescu was Christian. 
| | >I have no problem with acknowledging that these people had
| | >Jewish oriogins, as long as you have no problem
| | >acknowledging that these people 
| | >1) Tortured Jews and non Jews equally.
| | >2) That democratic resistance included Jews and non Jews
| | >alike. 
| | 
| | TOTH: Can't you see how you are even lying to yourself? [I can just
| | see you slowly but surely getting yourself tangled into some large
| | unravelled skein of knitting  wool ... which is your view and to which
| | you are entitled to!] 
| | 	Come on!... Individuals named above - Jewish and non-Jewish -
| | tortured Jews, but according to you: "There is really no reason to
| | prosecute Stalin and his followers for atrocities against Jews. " So
| | now I ask: what are you tryling to prove to cyberspace
| readers?
| 
| That your claim is bogus. There is no self contradiction in
| what I said above. The crimes these people commited were not
| crimes specifically against Jewry. Why is so hard to
| understand in that? 
| 
| | 
| | SZUCS: I would recognize your way of
| | >| thinking anywhere, because it is programmed to be
| | >politically correct. >That is your view. You are entitled to it. >
| | 
| | TOTH: Well so much the better. I would certainly recognize yours which
| | in its entirety corresponds to the politically correct
| programs.
| 
| What is your definition of Policitcally Correct?It must be
| pretty broad, and quite different from the wat it is usually
| used... 
| IN your definitoin what I say may be politcally corret, but
| your definition is irrelevant.
| You keep  bringing up this label (politically correct),
| wit the intentionof damaging my credibility. The problem
| is that even if it was true that what I said is in line
| with what a PC supporter would say - that is irrelevant.
| As long as these are the arguments I make they have to be
| evaluated on their own merit. If a nazi said to you that
| two plust two equals four would you deny it just because
| it was said  by a Nazi?
| | 
| | TOTH: Well, good!  I finally got you going to the
library! 
| How arrogant! How irrelevant! What infromation do you have
| on how often I go to the library?!

Check it
| | out... perhaps you could learn something from  Ben Hecht?
| | Ben Hecht who calls dr. Weizmann "the reluctant Moses" writes the
| | following words on page 18 of his PERFIDY:
[...]
| Relevance?
| 
| | 	Page 19: "In August 1938 (...) Dr. Weizmann, addressing the 480
| | Zionist delegates, fifteen hundred visitors, two hundred
press
[...]

| 
| Relevance?
| 
| | 	Well so much from Ben Hecht's book. I do hope  you find it
| | somewhere... perhaps  in some hidden bookstore's basement. Good luck
| | and happy hunting.
| | Judit Toth
| 
Hidden bookstore basement? Is this book as recognized as the
Unabomber manifesto?

Thank you for your "candid" remarks.

I will keep them as the record of your political creed and spiritual

signature to make sure that from now on you will be acting out 

accordingly.



A. Albu 


---------------


 
cristian > wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 1 Oct 1996  wrote:
> 
> > Poetician1 wrote:
> > >
> > > In article >,
> > >  says...
> > > I don't believe I'm reading this from you. Have you become a closet liber
al?
> 
> > I am not a liberal. I just fell that all nations have equal rights, and
> > when one was is in distress it needs attention.
> 
> Dear mr. Feher, please rest asured that he does not mistake you for a
> liberal. You are very obnoxiousely a dickhead, it is quite obvios !
> Then again, he was not commenting about your esteemed falusness, but about
> myself. So much for being alert ! Wake the fuck up before you start
> casting your moronic lines over the net ;
> 
> I just wonder why the Romas themselves do not participate in the discussion?
> > A. Albu
> 
> Because they dirty, cocksucking parasites that don't even care to educate
> themself to the degree that would enable them to post here, and please
> the kind of rotten, doublespeaking class of fagots that you so prodly
> represent as a specimen. A sad joke for a human being.
> 
> Over the years I learned one thing, 'Arbeit macht Frei' !  All the
> thieving gypsie parasites should be banished to Hungary, or impaled
> outright. Hell, Vlad the Impaler still has something to teach us about
> justice.  Personaly, I would give such a prick as you are, a very high
> place in this forest of justice.
> 
> Heck, what is a magyar after all but a gypsie of poor quality, you should
> honored for the priviledge of being impaled upon a taller stake than most.
> 
> up yours too,
> m. cristian

---------

In article >,
cristian  > wrote:
| 
| 
| On 2 Oct 1996, Istvan Szucs wrote:
| 
| > I love it when someone volountarily gives up all
| > credibility. 
| > Congratualations for disqualifying yourself from all
| > meaningful conversations.
| > Istvan
| 
| I am sure that your veiled hate of Romanians and the spreading of poison 
| qualify you plenty for 'meaningful conversation' !

If you are sure that must be good enought for me. 
What you are conveniently forgetting is that I am in
agreement with some Romanian posters and disagreement with
others, so obviously the fact that youa re Romanian is not
an issue.  
 
| Lucky we only have a few anuses like you and Mr. Albu spreading their
| noxious writings around. Else Transylvania would be worse than Bosnia
| by now.  

THe thing is that for some - if the report is true - it is
not a whole lot better then bosnia. An d  based on your
response anuses like you are responsible for it.
BTW most people I know have stopped using bathroom humor
after graduating from Kindergarten. I am hoping that your
obviouisly retarded development on this fron twill not keep
you from reaching the intelligence level of a ten year old
by the end of your life.

Istvan