On 17 Nov 1995, Gabor Barsai wrote:

> 
> In article >, Dan Pop > wrote:
> >Try to forget the propaganda which was used to wash your brain and think
> >for yourself.
> 
> OK, Dan, but only if you do the same!
> 
> BTW, you forgot you usual messages:
> 
> "Remember Ip and Traznea!"
> "Remember the 3 week old baby, who was killed by the Hungarian
> crooks/criminals/wackos/morons!"
> 
> You may also add:
> 
> "I have never denied killing 1,000,000,000 Romanians!"
> 
> "The mountain passes are blocked, the roads destroyed, the Romanians will 
> starve in their mountains over the winter!"
> 
> General X, Chief-of-Staff of the Hungarian Army.
> 
> BTW, anybody know what happened to Helmut Duckadam, keeper for Steaua? Where 
is
> he now?
> 
> Gabor
> 
> 
Gabor baci, 

I understand your real/constant/normal frustration about Ip and Traznea. 
Well, Dan doesn't keep you responsible for that, he only mentions the 
fact that these ACTS were possible. And all of us we should do something 
TOGETHER to prevent that. If we really want to. 


Lately, there were hundreds of messages concerning Transylvania and 
Quebec. Parallels, ideas, options. Everybody has not only the right to 
speak, but the legacy of making things go better. 


We are not living in Romania, we already have different experiences, I 
don't understand WHY, smart guys like Joe, Dan, Matyas, Liviu, Onu, 
Alexander, Vamossy, etc., you can not try to find a common way of guiding 
the discussion. What if you would setup a help program for the 
highschools in Transylvania ? In terms of .....so many things the kids 
need over there. Some guys already did it from California and Montreal 
and it worked ! 

It is easy for experienced guys to find heavy words to insult and still 
keep the gentleman shape.....but it will lead to...nowhere. If you don't 
believe...just wait and see.

Guys, it is very nice to exchange flames, to be smart and try to 
impress....But try to help ! Let's do something to help our cousins 
magyar or romanians. Kids in schools WITHOUT computers, Pentiums, 
Internet, Britannica, Webster etc. Living in Transylvania. The politic, 
economoc, land, education issues will be addressed by politicians from both 
countries, soon it appears, during the bilateral negociations. We, as 
Canadians, Americans, English, French, German, Finish, Dutch, Swiss, etc. 
citizens, can't we help our little innocent friends over there ? 


Of course Gabor Baci (when I say Baci I mean UNCLE), some of the guys on 
the net will write: Radu, did you help your Roumanians first and then 
asking for joint help in Transylvania ? Well, my answer is that here, in 
Massachusetts, I've organized an interesting test among the colleges (in
fact faculty and graduate students), and you know very well that the colleges
in Massachusetts are MORE THAN MANY, and we have shipped to Romania some 
good amounts of text-books (they speak/read/understand english), soft and 
lab results/tables/ etc. 


Well, I don't expect this message to be taken as a reference, but I hope, 
we, magyars and romanians, we still can help the kids over there. 


Please be sarcastic, please insult me, please insult my unilateral action 
in Mass to send some help in Romania. I will be happy if at least one 
magyar counterpart will give me the address of a Transylvanian magyar 
location/school, to send our joint future help. Without names and labels. 
Without politics. If we really feel that we can/have to/should help the 
ones over there. 

Excuse me for bothering you, my friends romanians and magyars. I know 
it's more juicy to insult than helping, it's more reassuring to spit 
than to OFFER. If you are really interested in HEARING yourselfs, then 
don't help the kids over there.

That's it. 

BTW, if you really want some flames and endless discussions, insult me.



Radu damian

In article >,  says...
>
>>You never heard about those 600 000 deported
>>from Hungary, less then 100 000 returned. They were gethered and
>>sent to death by the Hungarian autorities,
>/*---*/
>
>Ezek szerintem kimerítik az ócsárlás fogalmát, különösen ha sokad-
>szorra dörgölik az ember orra alá ugyanazt.

Sokadszorra ? OK, talan mert egy feledekeny levelezo tobbszor
azt allitotta hogy O meg ilyet nem hallott ! 
Ha az ocsarlas=negativ tenyek felemlitese, akkor vallalom,
hogy ocsaroltam. De akkor vallad TE a definiciot !

 Már ez a "szégyellem,
>hogy magyar vagyok" is ócsárlás egy -végülis egy nem magyar éntu-
>datú- szájából. Egyébként ezt a sort olvashattuk korabban angolul is,
>szintte tükörfordításban...
Itt elveszitettem a fonalat. Melyik sor volt angolul? Amelyiket itt
angolul ideztel, es tolem szarmazik? Vagy a szegyenkezo...
>
>De nem ezért  írtam azt, amit írtam. Az idézet csak azért volt ott,
>hogy látszódjon, a te leveled hatására írok. Azt akartam közölni, hogy
>ez a  szégyenlősdi-játék rendszeresen porondon van, és én kissé unom
>már.
Es ez egy zartkoru tarsasag? Vagy nyilvanos forum. Ha az utobbi, akkor
az hogy te mit unsz az teljesen a maganugyed. Egyebkent figyeled,
hogy fellendult a lavalezes ? Ez csak pozitiv nem ?

>
>A deportálás nem ekvivalens a likvidálással. 
Csak az esetek 80%-aban. Igazad van nem voltam teljesen preciz.


>>Magyarok is voltak koztuk, akik politikai okok miatt deportaltattak.
>
>Igen, nem csak zsidókat, hanem például kommunistákat meg
>egyéb baloldaliakat is deportáltak. Háború volt, és Magyarországon nem
>volt egy mai értelemben vett demokrácia, hanem csak a látszatja. Sőt
>a függetlensége is elég gyenge lábakon állt. Nyilván ezért szokás 'satel-
>lite country'-nak címezni Horthy Magyarországát a háború alatt. Osztán
>ha megkapargatjuk USA ugyan demokrácia volt és mégis hány japánt
>deportált...
Egyetertek, nagyjabol. Bar a deportalasok es a zsidok jogfosztasa meg a
viszonylag demokratikusan hatalomra kerult kormanytol indult el.

>De,  követtem az elején, sőt az elsők között válaszoltam neki. Hoz-
>zám mérten finoman.
>
>Igen, beesett ide, tört magyarsággal lefasisztázta az egész kanadai
>magyar emigrációt, meg egyebek.  
Ez azert tulzas. Nem allitom hogy jol valogatta a szavait, de nem igy
hangzott ahogy most irod.
>
>(megjegyzem: ha egy echte magyarországi magyar, echte magyar név-
>vel, identitástudattal etc.  jön egy ilyen szöveggel, igen hamar elkül-
>döm a jó kurva édesanyjába, 

Ugyerted megfosztod a velemenyehez valo jogatol, mert az neked nem
tetszik ?

A zsido szarmazasu Nobeldijasokat pedig szarmazasukert uldoztek. Ne
kelljen mar ezt megint bebizonyitani, szinte biztosra veszem, hogy mar 
hallottal rola. Igy tenyleg unalmas.

//Laszlo

Ok here is what I have. They are all tapes.

Bikini: Mondd El  (It's hard to classify, kind of punky)

Napoleon Boulevard:  Julia Nem Akar a Foldon Jarni  (pop"konnyuzene" trying
                                                        to be)
Frederika:  Frederika  (A young girl, light pop, not bad for first try)

Presser Gabor:  Csak Dalok  ( Solo effort of Pici, kind of LGT
                                but not like Electromatic)
Nagy Bando Andras: Nyilt Kartyakkal  ( No, he didn't started to sing. He is 
                           a comedian. Hungary related jokes, good stuff.)

All tapes are $10 US or $15 CAN including shipping. This is a general idea.

E-mail me if you are interested.

In >  (Matyas ) writes:

>This is exactly the situation of the Hungarians in Romania. The main differenc
e
>is that they (in a realistic way) don't claim their independence of Romania, b
ut
>their right to preserve their national identity.

If education in their language, from kindergarten to high school, can't
help them to preserve their national identity, I'm just wondering what
could achieve this noble goal.

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

OBTAIN US CITIZENSHIP, OWN A US BUSINESS, EARN AN UNLIMITED INCOME

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and work on building your international business.  The
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and all you need is a telephone. The start up cost for your business
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Thats not all, you will have a United States partner to keep all
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along with running day to day operations.

If you have an interest in what, I have proposed to you please
respond with a E-mail.

Sincerely:
Richard H. Fink, Jr.



Kocsis Tamasnak:

  Nos, megprobaltam utananezni, komolyabb forrasok
nelkul ennek a 20-as evekban jott zsidotorvenynek,
annal is inkabb, mert egy maganlevelben is felhivtak
figyelmemet egy 1920 koruli "Feherterror" idejerol
valo zsidotorvenyre. Csak nehany nemileg ellentmondo
utalast talatam, pl. egy 1968-bol valo Kislexiconban,
datum nelkul emlitve, de azt irvan hogy ez a nemet
fsizmus hatasara keletkezett. Ilyen viszont tudomasom
szerint 1920-ban meg nem volt, csak 1933 utan. Egy nem
tul autentikus forrasban az Ifjusagi Kislexikonban - 
erosen kommunista beallitottsagu - egy mondat egy
kormanyzoi rendeletet emlit a zsidok egyetemi es
hivatali letszamat korlatozando, datum nelkul, szinten
a "Feherterror" idejere utalva. Ezt en valoban nem
vettem figyelembe, mint elso zsidotorvenyt, nem is igen
tudtam rola. Igy hat technikailag igazad van, sot
az altalam 1936-ra datalt elso zs.t.-nek ismert sem
stimmelt, mert 1938 majus 29-e a pontos datum. Ez volt az
elso abban a sorban ami 13 db, csak a zsidok jogfoszta-
saval foglalkozo torvenysorozatbol, amibol az utolsot
Szalasi hozta 1944 nov. 3-an.
Egyebkent lasd Georg Fischer hozzaszolasat.

  A fentiek szerint szereztem egy rosszpontot. De ha
ennyire ragaszkodsz a pontossaghoz, akkor miert idezel
engem harmadszor ugy, hogy kihagyod a "viszonylagos"
kulcsszot? Osszehasonlitva a kornyezo orszagokkal,
meg mindig egesz demokratikusnak lehetett mondani.
Talan Csehszlovakiat kiveve.

A fenti torvenyek es a kormanyok:
Az 1938-as torvenyt Daranyi Kalman miniszterelnok
kezdemenyezte, es a kovetkezo miniszterelnok, Imredy
Bela hagyta jova. A kovetkezo torvenyek miniszterelnokei:
Grof Teleki Pal, Bethlen Istvan (kesobb ugyanemiatt lemondott
kepviseloi jogarol), Bardossy Laszlo, Kallai Miklos, Sztojai
Dome. Tobb nem jut eszembe. Ezek egyiket sem mint tehetetlen
babokat ismerjuk, vagy igen ?

Hogy ki povokalt kit: El kell ismerjed, hogy a zsidouldozesek
"elfelejtese", letagadasa volt az a provokacio, ami miatt en
ideirtam - elismerem, helyenkent hianyos, esetleg nem
mindenkinek joleso - emlekeztetoimet. Erre meg tobb tagadas
es minden szonak a megkerdojelezese volt a valasz. Meg ez is
belefer, de a szemelyeskedes, mocskolodas, ragalmazas mar
nem igazan melto ahhoz aki magara veszi, hogy a  magyarsag neveben
szoljon. En nem probalok itt sem a magyarsag neveben, sem elleneben
szolni, de aki a fentebbiek alapjan tevekenykedik, az bizony
komoly karokat okoz, mikozben Ram mutogat. Vedd eszre, hogy
a szemelyeskedes kesztyujet tobbszori provokalasra sem vettem fel,
pedig neha bizony kedvem lett volna.

Szerintem ez a csont mar elegge le van ragva. Ha van olyan ami meg
nem hangzott el, szivesen folytatom az eszmecseret, de ismetelgetni
magam nincs sok kedvem. Van egy tanulsag, amit mindenki figyelmebe
ajanlok: sok magyarnak, magyar szarmazasunak meg kene tanulnia
semlegesebben allni a temahoz amit vitat, tiszteletben tartani
az eltero nezethez valo jogot, anelkul, hogy ebbol az illeto
szemelyet serto kovetkezteteseket vagdalnak egymas fejehez.
Ez a kulonbseg a VITA es a VESZEKEDES kozott.

//Laszlo

Bill,

    Well replied!  Thanx.  Mingan

In article >, Dan Pop > wrote:
>>No responsible person is advocating changing the borders.
>
>I do agree with this.  Hence, all the advocates of an independent
>Transylvania are irresponsible.  They're mostly Hungarians from the USA,

I wonder who those might be.  I thought it was one of you guys who
stirred up s.c.r. with it.  
BTW, you also ought to define your terms.  Bringing up an idea for
discussion does not necessarily mean advocating it.  Not even if one
favors the idea.  Advocation implies taking a proactive stance on the
issue.  So which Hungarians you have seen here doing it?  Quoting proofs
would be expected.

Joe

In article >,  () writes
:
|> Matyas ) wrote:
|> > In article >,  () wr
ites:
|> > |> CHARLES VAMOSSY ) wrote:
[...]
|> > |> > But I can't help but wonder if Romania, having taken over Transylvani
a  
|> > |> > as war booty from the 
|> > |> > loosing Hungarian side, would afford the same human rights to its 
|> > |> > Hungarian minority as Canada does to the French.  Would Romania give 
the 
|> > |> > same constitutional guarantees of language and culture as Canada?  
|> > |> 
|> > |>    I think there are lots-o-people on this group that would disagree wi
th 
|> > |> you on this point seeing as how Hungry got Transylvania in the first 
|> > |> place, 
|> 
|> > Namely, how (and when) did Hungary get Transylvania first?
|> 
|>   NO NO NO I did not say Hungary got Transylvania first!!  I implied that 
|> they got it from the Romanians in the first PLACE.

Sorry: Namely, how (and when) did Hungary get Transylvania in the first place 
(from Romania - existing since 1859(?)...)

|> 
|>  > |>but I will leave that point to others who know more 
|> about it. 
|> 
|> > Then why bother even mentioning it?
|> 
|>    Because I wanted it to be evident that I disagreed with him and that I 
|> agree with the Daco-Roman history of romania.

All right, I got this but even the Daco-Roman continuity tells about a nation
and the areas it inhabited, but it can be related to a Romanian STATE only
beginning with 1859. And Transylvania wasn't a part of that Romanian state. So
there is very little point in raising the "got from" idea.

On the other hand the main issue wasn't (again) who got what from who, but 
Romanian's attitude towards its minorities (as compared to Canada). And this is
an important issue because Romania promised a lot when it was given Transylvani
a.

|> 
|> 
|> Regards,
|> Scott

Matyas
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Someone made a comment last week that they were happy to notice that there
were more postings on scm than in the recent past.

I felt the same way, until I went over the archives of over 300 postings.
Of those 300, most of the posts were by romanians, zionists, vietnamese ,
russians and other foreignors.

I don't mind foreignors participatipn, however would the Hungarians please
speak up more and get involved. Say something.

And as far as the foreignors are concerned and some of the hotheaded
Magyars, lets not argue back with them for a while and perhaps they'll go
away.

Lets use this newsgroup for what it was ment for.

By the way I have to say the Hungarians have done a great job on the net
in the past six months. The resources on the WWW have really improved and
increased. 
GOOD JOB!

Istvan (Steve) Mihaly

In article >, Jaffo > wrote:
>
>:I agree; this whole shit does not even remotely belong to 
>:alt.sex.homosexual and similar groups. Tak chto, rebyata, sidite v 
>:alt.culture.russian (ili, esche lucshe, v 
>:alt.cretins.who.have.nothing.to.say) i ne zasoryaite set'.
>
>Are you implying there are no homosexual Russians?
>
>I think that's very narrow minded of you.  Homosexuality, while more 
>popular in America, is not an exclusively American phenomenon.
^^^^^^^^  What?????                        ^^^^^^^^ describes a hemisphere,
not a country!  I am a U.S. or A. citizen, not an American.
Is someone from Mexico NOT an American.  They certainly ARE Americans.

>
>Now that Communism has loosened up media censorship in the former Soviet 
>Union, Russians can enjoy pornography, pedophilia, sodomy, and all kinds of 
>American indoor sports!
>
>I would think the gay community would take a nod from the Billy Gramm 
>crusade and use this opportunity to force their lifestyle on unsuspecting 
>Russians.
>
>In much the same way they have forced it on us here in America.
                                ^^^^^^
It was never forced on anyone.  Did some guy FORCE you to have sex with him?
If that happoned, it was probably a heterosexual who was into a power/control
trip, like most rapists.

What some people think of as forcing the gay lifestly is an honest attempt to
prevent much of the damn discrimination against gay people.

And don't associate us with a group of religious fools!
We don't like having religion forced on us, and christians have been 
doing it for centuries!  We haven't, don't, and won't do that!

>
>Jaffo
>
^^^^^^ just another bigot!

John, a man who wants freedom FROM religion in the U.S.A.
--
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
John Bowling             |Apple II GS can whip the pants off it's little
      |brother (Mac) any time!
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-

I'm going to visit Mrs. Puitzer in New Jersey. Her husband passed away a
few years ago. He was the publisher of the Hungarian Heritage Review and
the founder of the Rakoczi Foundation.

If you knew her, or were a subscriber and would like to send her a message
or a greeting, e-mail it to me and I assure you she will get it next week.

Steve

In article > Georg Fischer,
 writes:
>Bizony ez sem stimmel. Az un. numerus clausus- mert igy hivtak a 
>rendelekzest, CSAK az orvosi karra vonatkozott, ahova csak az osz-
>letszam 20 %-a lehetett zsido a felvetelnel.

Én bizony úgy emlékeztem, hogy a jogi kart, sőt a Müszaki Egyete-
met is érintette. Köszi a korrekciót.

Tamás

1.A book proving that soon or later the Hapsburg Empire had to 
desintegrate:

"Austria-Hungary and the Origins of the First World War", by Samuel R. 
Williamson, Jr. Macmillan, 1992 (in the series "The Making of the 20th 
Century"

2. And a question: how many referanda have been held in Europe before and 
immediately after WWI?

3. Another quetion: Was the abolition of the Principality of Transilvania 
 the result of a referendum?

F.B.

Kocis Tamas:

>
>>Van egy tanulsag, amit mindenki figyelmebe
>>ajanlok: sok magyarnak, magyar szarmazasunak meg kene tanulnia
>>semlegesebben allni a temahoz amit vitat, tiszteletben tartani
>>az eltero nezethez valo jogot, anelkul, hogy ebbol az illeto
>>szemelyet serto kovetkezteteseket vagdalnak egymas fejehez.
>>Ez a kulonbseg a VITA es a VESZEKEDES kozott.
>
>Elsösorban saját magad, és azoknak a figyelmébe ajánljad ezt a
>tanulságot, akik időnként a magyar csoportra rontanak, és meg-
>vádolnak minket mindenfélével.

  Hat itt azert nem artott volna mondjuk egyetlen pelda arra,
hogy en hol szemelyeskedtem, becsmereltem, vagy ragalmaztam
barmelyikotoket is. Es hol volt itt a csoport barmely tagja
megvadolva valamivel? Erre mindenkeppen kerek peldat, vagy
azonnali visszavonast.

>Ez a csoport tud vitatkozni, különösen történelmi témákban.

Lattam ra peldat, volt ami nekem is tetszett, ami a temaval
foglalkozott es nem irojaval.


>Rég rájöttünk magunktól, hogy kényes témában nem lehet más-
>képpen vitatkozni. Az mindig kölcsönös vádakozáshoz, flame-
>war-hoz  vezet csak. Az ilyen vitákban a felek tele vannak
>előítéletekkel, az ellenfél véleménye nem számít; amíg nem szembesülnek
>vitathatalan, cáfolhatatlan tényekkel, addig
>a vélemények soha nem módosulnak. (Soxor még úgy sem.)

  Tevedek ha ugy emlekszem mintha Te irtad volna, hogy ha
valaki egy bizonyos modon kozelit meg egy temat akkor
elkuldened a kurva anyjaba? Ha nem tevedek akkor itt meg vannak
lehetosegek a javulasra. Javadra irom, hogy ezutan Toled nem lattam
hasonlot.

>Antiszemitizmus vita ebben a csoportban még nem volt, csak

  Valaki azt irta, hogy beesett neha ide valaki, lafasisztazta
a tarsasagot aztan elhuzott. Ezek kapcsolatosak voltak az
antiszemitizmussal ? En ezeket nem lattam, nem tudok semmit
roluk. Viszont ugy tunik a tema tovabbra is vagy tabu, vagy
vagy az orok tagadas birodalmaba tartozik. Egy masik vitazo
szerint az antiszemitizmus orok temaja a zsidoknak. Lehetseges hogy
ide meg nem tort be ?

>A kérdést még felszínesen, egyes pontjait kiragadva  megvi-
>tatni sem könnyű dolog. A téma ugyanis rendkívül forrásigé-
>nyes (és forrásgazdag). Viszont örök téma révén, ha nem fog-
>lalkozunk vele alaposabban, mindig ide fogunk kilyukadni.
>Egyszer tényleg sort kéne keríteni rá.

  Talan igazad van. Magam nem rendelkezem tul sok hiteles
forrassal, soha eszembe nem jutott, hogy szuksegem lehetne rajuk
valamilyen okbol. Ami van az nemi emlek az iskolabol, olvasmanyokbol,
olyanok elbeszeleseibol akik szenvedo alanyai voltak ezeknek
az idoknek. A haboru utani, mai antiszemitizmusrol azonban eleg jo
ismeretekkel rendelkezem. Es itt egy szembetagadas nem marad valasz
nelkul tolem. Soha nem birtam a kisebbsegek elnyomasanak magatol-
ertetodoseget, ezert lettem "persona non grata" Romaniaban, ezert
csomorlottem meg mindenfele szintu nacionalizmustol. Latom, tobben
vitatkoztok Erdely ugyeben. Ugyanakkor az a gyanum tamad, hogy csak
kevesen kozuletek jart ott egyaltalan. Kijavitast kerek ha tevedek.

  OK, ha van aki akar meg vitatkozni az antiszemitizmus targyaban,
en nem vonulok vissza. 

//Laszlo

Hi,

My name is Istvan (Steve) Mihaly. I was born in Hungary and came to the
United States in 1956. I speak fluent Hungarian and am the founder of the
Hungarian American Heritage Network.

I went to school at Piarist Fathers in Derby, New York in the late 1950's
early 1960's and went to Burg Kastl in Germany in the mid 1960's.

I publish a Hungarian newsletter in the English language called the "The
Hungarian American Source."  I print information that is informative,
educational, entertaining, business related and of interest to Hungarians
or people of Hungarian ancestory who live in America.

I am also conducting an ongoing survey of Hungarian Americans. If you are
interested, or want more information, please send me your mailing address
and I will send you out a survey package.

The world needs more positive and true information written about Hungary
and Hungarians in the English language.

If you are proud of your Hungarian ancestory I welcome your participation.

Hungarian American Heritage Network
e-mail:  
San Diego, California

Note: this is an attempt through the HIX/SCM gateway, because our persistent
network problems at meteo.fr leave me with email access only at present
-- Olivier


[Translated from HIX/HIRMONDO (see s.c.magyar FAQ) #6.136, Nov.11th, 1995.
 Hungarian original at the end]

Ill-matched Romanian decision about Duna TV (Ne'pszabadsa'g newspaper)

The National Audiovisual Council (CNA), which counts as an "autonomous
administration" according to the Romanian media law, has given to all
legal cable companies the right to transmit foreign satellite programs.
The first exception is Duna TV, whose diffusion was forbidden in the
summer by the Romanian media council, at a few Transylvanian cable
companies. The council exposed the measure in front of public opinion
only at the beginning of November, under the effect of a parliamentary
interpellation by a RMDSZ (UDMR) representative. In their letter dated
November 6th they explain: "The council received several reports about
programs by Duna TV feeding suspicion between ethnics, stirring up
artificial tension; momentarily, for a period of observation and
analysis, it has not given permission to emit to certain cable TV
companies." Three days later the CNA denied in a communique that it
would have taken a decision about the interdiction of Duna TV, although
it appears in the explanation that only companies that have previously
received an authorization can continue to transmit the programs.


> From  Sun Nov 12 12:50:07 1995
> From: Hungarian News Administrator >
> Date: Sun, 12 Nov 1995 18:50:07 -0600 (CST)
> Subject:  HIRMONDO 6.136, 95/11/12
> 
[...]
> Felemas roman dontes a Duna TV-rol (NSZ)
> 
> A roman mediatorveny szerint "autonom kozhatosagnak" szamito Nemzeti
> Audiovizualis Tanacs (CNA) minden torvenyes kabeltarsasagnak megadta a
> kulfoldi muholdas adasok tovabbitasanak jogat.  Az elso kivetel a Duna
> TV, amelynek adasat a roman mediatanacs nyaron letiltotta nehany erdelyi
> kabeltarsasagnal.  A tanacs csak november elejen, egy RMDSZ-kepviselo
> parlamenti kepviselo interpellaciojanak hatasara tarta intezkedeset a
> kozvelemeny ele.  November 6-i levelukben kifejtik: "a tanacs tobb
> ertesitest kapott a Duna TV olyan musorairol, amelyek az etnikumkozti
> gyanakvast taplaljak, mesterseges feszultseget szitanak, idolegesen, egy
> megfigyelesi es elemzesi periodusra nem adott ki sugarzasi jovahagyast
> bizonyos kabeltv-tarsasagoknak."  Harom napra a CNA kozlemenyeben
> cafolta, hogy a Duna TV adasanak tilalmarol dontott volna, bar a
> magyarazatbol kiderul, csak a korabban engedelyt kapott tarsasagok
> adhatjak tovabbra is a musort.
> 
[...]
>                                                 Ferko Janos

In >  () writes:

>In article >, Dan Pop > wrote:
>>
>>OK Joe, you asked for it.  I've already posted the full document, so
>>I'll reproduce only relevant excerpts:
>>
>>:                              HON. ROBERT K. DORNAN
>>:                                  OF CALIFORNIA
>>:                         in the House of Representatives
>>:                            Thursday, February 2, 1995
>> ...
>>: 
>>:   AMERICAN HUNGARIAN CONGRESS AND HUNGARIAN NATIONAL WORLD COUNCIL RESOLUTI
ON
>
>Oops!  I completely forgot about this one.  Frankly, if you knew the
>significance and impact of these grand-sounding organizations of a few
>dozen octogenerians, you would have forgotten it, too.

It is only your word against him.  Nevertheless, a few dozen is much more
than one individual, Joe Pannon.

>Of course a
>politician, like Bob Dornan, who figure a few votes might come out of
>this, would gladly oblige any group with the opposite declaration, too.

OTOH, why did he bother for only a few dozen votes?

>But in any case, I give you this one.  On the other hand, wasn't there
>a Romanian guy here recently also advocating an independent
>Transylvania?  So maybe this is not such a Hungarian-only idea, huh?

How do you know he was Romanian?  He even posted from an anonymous
service.  Lehel and Matyas can use the Romanian language at least as well
as your beloved "Virgil Ardelean".  This doesn't make them Romanians,
however.
>
>>Now, please show us relevant proofs that this is what the Hungarians from
>>Romania are asking for.  I've never heard of something similar coming from
>>UDMR.
>
>I doubt they would say it publically even if they liked the idea.

I don't think it would be a particularly good idea for them.  In an
independent Transylvania, PUNR would be, probably, the leading political
force and Mr. Funar the president of the Republic of Transylvania (or the
prime minister of a Kingdom of Transylvania).  The Hungarians would be
delighted :-)

>You
>guys can't even handle your own kins well if they have different ideas
>about your history, so I imagine how you would handle something like
>that from Hungarians.

Why should we "handle" our kins with different ideas about our history
in any way?  We have no longer a communist party to tell us which is the
one true history of Romania, so everybody is free to come with his pet
version.  Personally, I couldn't care less about the place where the
Romanian people was formed: I'm not a hobbyist historian and this isn't
likely to make any difference today, anyway.
>
>>I have to admit that someone asking for the dismantling of Romania cannot
>>be branded as loyal to Romania :-)
>
>Yeap.  That's what I was alluding to.  Very perceptive, Alexander!

How did you realize that Alexander is very perceptive, while following up
one of my articles? :-)
>
>> I'll point you to France again, which doesn't even recognize
>>the existence of minorities.  You'll have a hard time arguing that France
>>is not a democratic country by the current standards.  I'm not advocating
>
>Well, it's no big deal for France now to be so democratic after
>assimilating its minorities.  That's why I never thought France to be a
>good example to be held up when it comes to minorities.

You don't mind making a fool of yourself, do you?  Go and tell the Basques
that they have been assimilated by the French.  Try the same thing with
the Corses and the Alsacians.

>
>>if Hungarian and Romanian opposition forces don't join their efforts NOW,
>>forgetting their current differences of views in certain problems, the
>
>You mean the Romanians are also willing to compromise?
                            ^^^^
I don't understand the meaning of "also" in your statement.  HDUR left the
Democratic Convention because they weren't interested in a compromise.

Dan

Dan
--
Dan Pop
CERN, CN Division
Email:  
Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

On 14 Nov 1995  wrote:

> than 10 years the balance became 50-50 and it became Vatra's HQ.
> I think it is mostly the cities and their immediate surroundings that
> were targeted by the Romanian gov. for rapid ethnic shift.  Not just by
> industrialization induced immigration from the Regat, but by declaring
> certain cities "closed", i.e., closed from Hungarians wanting to move
> in.
> Joe

You have a distorted image of this, but what can you expect of a 'visitor'
that made up his mind by the prejudicious hearsay of third parties, and by
briefly glancing through his own ideologicaly colored glasses !

You write of at least two very insidious inacuracies. By now I suspect
that you know better, but like to gall them coleric 'olahs' into a Dima
like response.

First, whenever a city was closed, it was pretty much closed for everybody.
Exept perhaps for those that mastered the 'art' of influence, which was
never the monopoly of one nationality or another.

Second, you wallow in the comforting but wishfull idea that 
'industrialization' based migration to the cities was effected from the
'Regat' or Moldova, or perhaps the last of the 'olah_hood' that was left
south of the Danube.  The thorny truth is that said industrialization
induced population shift came from the country side of Transylvania proper.

And I can attest to this, not from the hotel door glance of some biased
visitor, but by having lived it in Nagy Varad. Yes, before 1960 Oradea
had a majority Hungarian population. The commie built highrises filled
with Romanian peasants from around the city, thrown off their lands by 
forced 'colectivisation' (confiscation). They found themselfes blue
collar workers almost overnight. There was always a shortage of housing,
thus a good procentage of them commuted to their villages, something
that would be tough to pull off even for some resourcefull Oltenian ! 
  
m. cristian

In article >
            "Wally Keeler" writes:
> 
> Grigore Dumitrescu wrote:
> >
> >'Things used to be different, but now they're the same'. 
> >--
> >Grigore
> 
> Very good post Grigore.
> A very Grigood post.
> -- 
> Wally Keeler                                    Poetry

Thanks, but did you notice the great play on words in the original title:

 Manifest DENSITY 
	  -------
???

Cha...! Sometimes I even surprise myself.

-- 
Grigore

According to Steve (Istvan) Mihaly, if "we" don't argue back with some of the
foreigners and "hotheaded Magyars," maybe they will go away.  Well, Istvan, I
happen to be one of those hated "foreigners," but not one of those who has
been posting one of the rather irrelevant messages arguing about
homosexuality, Buddhism, and such.  I also happen to have lived and worked in
Hungary for a year, to be extremely interested in Hungarian culture and
language, and plan on returning at the end of this year to Budapest to study
Hungarian intensively for a while.  I'd even venture to say I might have been
in Hungary much more recently than some of those "nem kulfoldiek."  I hope
that everyone does not feel the hostility towards us "kulfoldi" that you seem
to, for I feel that I gain much by participation in this newsgroup.  I hope
you would welcome me just as many of your countrymen were welcomed by
Canadians, Americans, etc. into their midst.
A minden kulfoldinek-Udv!!
--Shannon Morris

In article >, Dan Pop > wrote:

>>politician, like Bob Dornan, who figure a few votes might come out of
>>this, would gladly oblige any group with the opposite declaration, too.
>
>OTOH, why did he bother for only a few dozen votes?

He did not know how many votes were involved there.  From the grand
sounding names he probably assumed the same thing you did. On the other
hand, I know a little bit more about them.

About Virgil you wrote:
>
>How do you know he was Romanian?  He even posted from an anonymous
>service.  Lehel and Matyas can use the Romanian language at least as well
>as your beloved "Virgil Ardelean".  This doesn't make them Romanians,
>however.

You have no proof he is not a Romanian, either.  When one does not know, 
one accepts what the person says about himself.  Knowing a little bit the 
Romanian intolerance of people holding different views than the main tribe, 
I am not at all surprised that many people want to write anonymously.
Besides, there is no garantee, either, that somebody writing from a
non-anonymous site is the person whom his signature indicates.
Remember, how many people expressed their doubt that my name is Pannon.
I wonder if these people would be happier if I signed as "Szabo", or
something like that.  Would that change my message, too?

>I don't think it would be a particularly good idea for them.  In an
>independent Transylvania, PUNR would be, probably, the leading political
>force and Mr. Funar the president of the Republic of Transylvania (or the
>prime minister of a Kingdom of Transylvania).  The Hungarians would be
>delighted :-)

Well, that's the chance they would have to take, I guess.
>
>  Personally, I couldn't care less about the place where the
>Romanian people was formed: 

Let me put you down then that you are open on that issue. ;-)

>>Yeap.  That's what I was alluding to.  Very perceptive, Alexander!
>
>How did you realize that Alexander is very perceptive, while following up
>one of my articles? :-)

Just a slip, Dan!  Don't make a mountain out of every mole hill.
(I must have been answering Bossy just before answering you.)

>You don't mind making a fool of yourself, do you?  Go and tell the Basques
>that they have been assimilated by the French.  Try the same thing with
>the Corses and the Alsacians.

I think the Basques are a unique case, because their territory spans the
Franco-Spanish border.  French assimilation could not be as effective
with such ethnic group.  In addition, Basques are one taugh people!
I'm not sure who the Corses are (Corsicans?), but Alsatians are again a
border situation.  It's generally almost impossible to assimilate people
in the border areas when the main body of those people is just across
the border and thus can maintain daily contacts.

>>You mean the Romanians are also willing to compromise?
>                            ^^^^
>I don't understand the meaning of "also" in your statement.  HDUR left the
>Democratic Convention because they weren't interested in a compromise.

I think the HDUR sees that differently.

Joe

In article >,  (Dan Pop) writes:
|> In >  () writes:
|> 
|> >Matyas  > wrote:
|> >>
|> >>How many people did gather at Alba Iulia on that 1st of December, 1918 (pl
ease
|> >>try to document it). What percentage of the Romanians inhabitants of 
|> >>Transylvania 
|> >>and what percentage of the total population did this represent? Were they 
all 
|> >>current Transylvanian inhabitants? How did they find out about the event a
nd 
|> >>how did they get there?
|> >
|> >You forgot another important question:  whose army was in control of
|> >Alba Iulia at the time?
|> 
|> And you both "forget" an important point.

While you keep forgeting to answer my questions...

  At the time, Transylvania had
|> an absolute Romanian majority,

What do you exaclty mean by absolute majority? Is it 1/2 + 1 or 2/3, or some ot
her
proportion? Support your answer with documented numbers. Be careful, because so
me
regions outside Transylvania proper (e.g.Partium) never had a Romanian majority
 
and were never before 1920 considered as part of Transylvania.

 who had absolutely no intention to be
|> administrated by the Hungarian state any longer.  Utterly irrelevant,
|> my point, isn't it?


Yes, at least to my questions.

|> 
|> Dan
|> --
|> Dan Pop
|> CERN, CN Division
|> Email:  
|> Mail:  CERN - PPE, Bat. 31 R-004, CH-1211 Geneve 23, Switzerland

Matyas

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George Szaszvari > wrote:
>
>I was last in Romania in 1982, the time after British forces had just 
>relieved Galtieri's forces of their responsibilities in the Falklands 
>(which was a very big talking point then), visiting relatives in
>Kolozsvar and Csikszereda (in your mentioned Harghita). I've since confined 
>my visits to Hungary. The paranoia in Romania was surrealistic; Hungary was 
>already considered *The West* by all *Romanian citizens* I met then. Has 
>anything really changed?

Interesting, because I was there almost the same year; in '81.  I sure
can second your impression, George!  At that time Marosvasarhely (Targu
Mures) had a noticeable Hungarian majority from what was told by the
locals there and you could sense that from just hearing mostly Hungarian
on the street.  I was shocked when I found out after '89 that in less
than 10 years the balance became 50-50 and it became Vatra's HQ.

I think it is mostly the cities and their immediate surroundings that
were targeted by the Romanian gov. for rapid ethnic shift.  Not just by
industrialization induced immigration from the Regat, but by declaring
certain cities "closed", i.e., closed from Hungarians wanting to move
in.

Joe

Tiberiu Murgoci > wrote:


> It seamed to me (from discutions with Romanians in Romania) that,
>while they couldn't care less about unification with the Rep. of Moldova
>(some of them were even very much against it, due to official propaganda), 
>the same Romanians would be very adamant against an indep=
>endent Transylvania (again due to the official propaganda).

Which reminds me of a very similar thought voiced by Doina Cornea, the
only prominent Romanian dissident in Cluj ready to make common cause
with Hungarian in condemning nationalist excesses,  at a public rally
called by HDFR to protest over restrictions on Hungarian-language
teaching in Cluj schools: "It is absurd," she said, "that at a time
when Bessarabia is occupied and we do nothing to liberate it, we say
instead that the Magyars want to take Transylvania. We are the ones in
control of Transylvania and it is the duty of a landlord to be
generous."

Hungarian landlords failed to be generous toward the Romanians of
Transylvania whose initial goal during the 18th and 19th centuries,
BTW, was to be a fully-recognized nation within the federal state
ruled by the Habsburgs. When the Hungarians refused to comply with
their demands, only then the Romanians turned toward their
economically-less-developed brothers from across the Carpathians. We
should learn something from the Hungarians' mistake.

>I personally believe that in todays world, language, culture 
>and common territory are not - sine qua non - and that
>economics should prevail. Everything is secondary to food!

Very unsophisticated but, nevertheless, correct.

Liviu Iordache

Video-filmoj
 ************

 haveblaj  c^e  Int.  E-Instituto  (Riouwstr.  172,  NL-2585 HW Den Haag,
 Nederlando).

 1. Cseh-metoda leciono de Childs-Mee, 42 min, 60 NLG + sk (sendokostoj)
 2. Kompleta Cseh-kurso, 6 kasedoj, 18 horoj, 600 NLG
 3. Ekstrakto de la sama kurso, 3 kasedoj, 12 horoj. 350 NLG + sk
 4. "Esp. 100-jara" (R. Dobrzynski), 45 min. 60 NLG +sk
 5. "Bonvenon al Bjalistoko" (R. Dobrzynski), 50 min. 65 NLG + sk
 6. "Esp. 100 jarojn poste" (UK en Varsovio, R. Dobrzynski). 60 NLG + sk
 7. MAZI en Gondolando, 2 kasedoj. 198 NLG + 18 sk

 La  numeroj  1,  2 kaj 3 estas destinitaj speciale por E-instruistoj. La
 numeroj 2 kaj 7 haveblas ankau~ en NTSC.

 * * * * * *

 Videokasedoj   haveblaj  c^e  UEA  (Nieuwe  Binnenweg  176,  NL-3015  BJ
 Rotterdam, Nederlando):

 - Angoroj (L. Mahe), - la unua filmo en E-o, 60 min. 66 NLG
 - Bona Espero (R. Dobrzynski), E-o farmbieno en Brazilio, 30 min. 49,8 NLG
 - Bonvenon al Bjalistoko (R. Dobrzynski), dokumentofilmo, 50 min. 59,7 NLG
 - C^ina masag^o, instrucele al masag^istoj, 75 min. 144 NLG
 - En Eu~ropo ie, aventura art-filmo, profesie dublita, 80 min. 60 NLG
 - Esperanto (R. Dobrzynski), dokumenta filmo, 45 min. 75 NLG
 - La  graveco de la fidelig^o (Lou Brooks), surscenigo de la fama verko de
   Oscar Wilde, 99 NLG
 - Kinarto kaj ni, (G. Silfer), antologio + fragmentoj, 40 min. 67,8 NLG
 - Malto, gvidilo tra Maltio, 30 min. 45 NLG
 - Mefisto  (I. Szabo), Oscar-premiita filmo, profesie dublita, 140 min. 99
   NLG
 - La reveno al Finnlando (Buller, Dobrzynski, Heikkinen), dokumenta filmo,
   45 min. 45 NLG
 - Spuroj de la avo (R. Dobrzynski), 30 min. 60 NLG
 - S^afejo  de  la  nau~a  profeto (R. Dobrzymski), resume pri bahaismo. 30
   min. 45 NLG
 - Tero  el  maro  (H.  Knudsen),  vulkanaj  erupcioj  kaj naturbelaj^oj en
 - Islando. 20 min. 84,3 NLG
 - Varsovio  100 jarojn poste (R. Dobrzynski), dokumente pri la jubilea UK.
   60 min. 75 NLG
 - Viena Ringo, gvidilo pri Vieno. 20 min. 36 NLG
 - Vizito  de la Imperiestro, (R. Dobrzynski), 3 dok. filmoj pri C^inio, 80
    min. 75 NLG.

 Al c^iuj prezoj aldonendas la sendokostoj.

 Rim.
 - 1. Ni plurfoje demandis per retpos^to CO-n de UEA pri eventualaj novaj
      filmoj, sed dum tri semajnoj ne venis respondo.
 - 2. Se  krom  la menciitaj videofilmoj iuj libroservoj vendas aliajn,
      volonte ni publikigas ankau~ tiujn listojn. La  red.

Scott -- as a dual citizen, who made damn sure that the US recognizes and 
supports dual citizenship...  take my word for it, there is such a thing. 
 I have two passports, and I can use either one to travel with.

Charlie Vamossy

PS.. The State Department has a brochure explaining how it works and what 
restrictions there may be.

Radu Alexandru Damian  > wrote:
>
>We are not living in Romania, we already have different experiences, I 
>don't understand WHY, smart guys like Joe, Dan, Matyas, Liviu, Onu, 
>Alexander, Vamossy, etc., you can not try to find a common way of guiding 
>the discussion. What if you would setup a help program for the 
>highschools in Transylvania ? In terms of .....so many things the kids 
>need over there. Some guys already did it from California and Montreal 
>and it worked ! 

How do you know we are not doing something already?
But I like the thrust of your article and I wish we could see more of
it.

>BTW, if you really want some flames and endless discussions, insult me.

I don't see who could insult you for that!?  On the other hand, not
everything is a flame here that seems like it to the casual observer.
I think most of it is just good old fashioned rivalry and "leg-pulling".

Joe

Just the question.

A post in from the SLOVAK-L list:

Article 15973 of bit.listserv.slovak-l:
From:  (Igor GAZDIK)
Subject: Re: Language laws, commonly
Date: 18 Nov 1995 13:26:50 GMT
Organization: -
Lines: 68
Message-ID: >
References: >
NNTP-Posting-Host: dialup96-018.swipnet.se

"In article >,  says...
">
">Today in Finnish radio news, we were informed about
">the new language law in Slovakia, accepted yesterday.

">I've got some information about this new law on general
">level, details I don't know yet. The most popular detail
">said in Finnish media (also yesterday) is about "pop corn",

    it is a pity that finland is taking part in slovakia-bashing.
    that should be reserved to the "european" "parliament" that has
    no function and no power.   but slovakia has survived harder
    times and will survive this hypocrisy as well
...
">But what is then this law about? And commonly, how are the rights
">in European countries among other minority languages?

    it's best to ask the basques, catalonians, scots, bretons (name it).
">
">So far I know, in Slovakia there are Hungarian elementaryschools
">(more than 10% of schools), Hungarian kindergartens (same amount),
">Hungarian secondary schools (also ca. 10%), etc..
">
">I've understood, that some Hungarian speaking people want that
">Hungarian would be in Slovakia in same position like Swedish
">in Finland.

    what they actually would like to have is a little hungarian 
    fiefdom.   but for that purpose i would propose sending them
    to hungary.   there is nothing like the czech solution...

">But what is their position actually? And how it should be?

    they are mostly peasants on the corn island (zitny ostrov).
    most "hungarians" are the romani (gypsy) people.   most of them
    came to slovakia after ww2 and were allowed to settle down
    in slovakia for humanitarian reason (the hungarinas in hungary
    hunted them with rifles, like deer).   i think that if the slovak
    authorities finally started doing something about the integration
    and emancipation of the gypsies, the hungarian bubble would burst
    abruptly, as there would be no more than 150000 hungarian voters.
">
">It is interesting, that just in October EU accepted the sketch
">of this same law. So on European level it should be ok.
">If I remember right, Latvia had to change their own law because
">EU demanded it.

    the difference is that 50% of the population of latvia are
    russians.   their contribution to the past, present and future
    development of latvia is very different from the same on the
    hungarian part.

">What about if we apply the position of Hungarian language in Slovakia
">to
">A. Finnish language in Sweden?
">B. Russian language in Estonia and Latvia?
">C. Finnish language in Finland, Aaland?
">D. Slovak language in Hungary and Czech Republic?
">E. Generally?
>
    send the question to the eu-parliament and you will keep them
    busy for a century.
---------------

This must sound like music to the ears of Hungary-bashers everywhere.

Joe Pannon