Hollosi Information eXchange /HIX/
Copyright (C) HIX
Új cikk beküldése (a cikk tartalma az író felelőssége)
Megrendelés Lemondás
1 Re: The vote for overseas Hungarians (Was: Re: (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
2 The vote for overseas Hungarians (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
3 Re: The vote for overseas Hungarians (mind)  11 sor     (cikkei)
4 Re: Gypsies (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
5 Re: END OF DEMOCRACY (mind)  21 sor     (cikkei)
6 Changes in Hungary (mind)  382 sor     (cikkei)
7 Romanes.. (mind)  3 sor     (cikkei)
8 MY MENTAL ABILITIES (mind)  55 sor     (cikkei)
9 Roma in CR and Hungary (mind)  84 sor     (cikkei)
10 Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung (mind)  2 sor     (cikkei)
11 Hungarians in Rumania (mind)  62 sor     (cikkei)
12 Re: The vote for overseas Hungarians (Was: Re: (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
13 prevent info-highway roadkill (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
14 Hungarian national day of mourning (mind)  32 sor     (cikkei)
15 Re: Romanes.. (mind)  20 sor     (cikkei)
16 Re: The vote for overseas Hungarians (Was: Re: (mind)  10 sor     (cikkei)
17 Re: Gypsies (mind)  49 sor     (cikkei)
18 Re: Gypsies (mind)  31 sor     (cikkei)
19 Re: The vote for overseas Hungarians (mind)  5 sor     (cikkei)
20 Re: Gypsies (mind)  6 sor     (cikkei)
21 facts and namecalling (mind)  15 sor     (cikkei)
22 chauvenistic quacks (mind)  14 sor     (cikkei)
23 Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung (mind)  2 sor     (cikkei)
24 Re: Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung (mind)  9 sor     (cikkei)
25 Re: END OF DEMOCRACY (mind)  46 sor     (cikkei)
26 Re: The vote for overseas Hungarians (mind)  27 sor     (cikkei)
27 Re: The vote for overseas Hungarians (mind)  18 sor     (cikkei)
28 Re: Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung (mind)  8 sor     (cikkei)
29 ONLINE orszaghaz (mind)  25 sor     (cikkei)
30 The vote for... Hungarians-- at least 3 (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
31 Re: Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung (mind)  16 sor     (cikkei)
32 Vote overseas Hungarians (mind)  41 sor     (cikkei)

+ - Re: The vote for overseas Hungarians (Was: Re: (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Actually, HU does not disallow non-resident citizens to vote, rather
requires voting in the country; that is, non-residents can vote
visiting while those on leave from home at the time of the ballot cannot!

-- Zoli
+ - The vote for overseas Hungarians (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)


I wonder when was the last time you've been in Hungary and for how long.
If it was recently and for a longer period of time you certainly would
understand why the people at home want "our" money. It's a little hard to live
on around $120 a month when rent itself costs minimum $90 and appliances, for
example, cost as much as here.

Siposs Istvan
+ - Re: The vote for overseas Hungarians (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I still don't get it.

Most Hungarian-Americans are only US citizens. In order to vote, they'd
have to assume Hungarian citizenship or establish Hungarian residency
by living there,

I wonder what percentage of Hungarian immigrants would get excited about this
process. Very few...

Or should we just give voting rights to those who are listed in the
"Hungarian Telephone Book" ?
+ - Re: Gypsies (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Congratulations! You could win a prize in arrogance! What's wrong with
Hungarians wanting to teach their kids their native language? And what do you
exactly mean by 'peasant language'? I'm curious what your native language is
and whether you want to teach your kids your 'peasant language'.
And finally, you are the first person who agreed with Ceaucescu on any matter
so I really have to question your mental abilities.

Istvan Siposs
+ - Re: END OF DEMOCRACY (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

From: Miklos N Szilagyi, 
Date: 29 Sep 1994 04:52:14 GMT
In article > Miklos N Szilagyi,
>The End of Democracy?

[text of political pamphlet deleted]

>Miklos N. Szilagyi is the founder of the COMMON SENSE movement whose
>is to apply intelligent, *nonpolitical* common sense approaches to
>society's problems. We believe that these problems must be attacked at
>their core and not at the surface.

this strikes me as another paradigm example of newspeak: signing off a
political pamphlet with the claim taht it is "*nonpolitical*.

eric blair where are you?

+ - Changes in Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Csurka is not "the" vice-president of the ruling Hungarian
Democratic Forum today. Not even "one of the 6 vice-presidents".
Moreover, has long been expelled from HDF, which by the way no
longer rules but even in the opposition is relegated to be a minor
partner to the "Smallholders' Party".. Mr. Csurka is not even politician
today in the real sense, as he is not a representative in the

Csurka is back to what he has always been. Csurka is a writer, with
his head clearly thinking, his mouth articulately expressing his views
and -most importantly- his patriotic heart being committed to his
nation and to his country.

The "digest" below, a"translation" (compression, rather) of his recent
writing, which circulates on the Internet lately, but does not do
justicy to his original style, clearly shows that Csurka is a patriot who
had been adroitly framed as an "extremist" by those who like
Hungary but dislike Hungarians. (This is not so unusual, remember
the saying "France is a marvelleous country - except the French").

Changes in Hungary - As seen from Inside

by Istvan Csurka

"Hungarian Forum Monthly" ("Havi Magyar Forum"),
August, 1994, pp. 2-6.

(A digest. Editorial additions marked by square brackets)

Nazism fell and was condemned and extirpated by democracy,
whereas Communism fell but democracy failed even to condemn it.
Definitely no uprooting of communism took place.  Thus, post-
Communist societies feel betrayed, and their development is mired
in anarchy. Together with other failures of Western democracy,
notably its glaringly impotent posture in Bosnia, masses in post-
Communist societies turn their back to the West, while former
communist thrive by conforming to capitalist methods as faceless
artists, and using their capitalist connections to the hilt.

Almost the entire post-Communist region, but most completely
Hungary, fell under the heavy-handed control of the World Bank
and International Monetary Fund. Shock therapy and entrapment in
national debt are extremely harmful practices since IMF policies
have no sensitivity whatsoever to special needs of post-Communist
societies. The theory that economic development from state
capitalism to free market capitalism creates a free, open, democratic
society has proven totally false. The second elections in Hungary
document the opposite effect, that a restoration of the ancient
regime, a Potemkin-democracy can be established by the elite of
communist party, where behind the shop-window of a "multiparty
system" the former ruling circles reach for totalitarian power again,
where from public opinion to establishment of small businesses
everything is centralized and laws are in preparation to curtail
freedom of expression.  Hungarian Head of State Goncz is to introduce
a bill in September, to imprison from 1 to 8 years everyone who
"intimidates" minorities or religious groups, orally or in writing, or
who are members in groups conducting "intimidation". Suppression
of deeds of intimidation would be appropriate and beyond any
question, but indeed minorities in Hungary are not intimidated.
German minorities could testify to a cloudless sky above their heads.
Even the Report on Human Rights by the U.S. State Department in
1993, a report that contains several malicious statements and
misinterpretations of facts, states that Jews in Hungary are
represented in an excellent manner in culture, economic and
financial life and political power.  Yet, an "intimidation" of Jews and
Gipsies in Hungary is the most favored topic of the press.
This is a policy to intimidate Hungarian patriots. Those who are
Hungarians, or Christians on top of that, and perhaps even wish to
express the same, are intimidated, and their membership in
constitutional parties or movements is an actual handicap in
employment, university enrollment or even in finding jobs in the
private sector. Property owners, who are most often ex-communists-
turned-into-liberals, can arbitrate opinion and belief.  Hungary
documents that changes since '89 produced nothing good for the
society, and in fact the financial policy relegated Hungarian economy
into a catastrophic new dependency.

The West might read the above not as the "outcome of an election"
but as a harmful trend in Europe, which could become a major
handicap in the European integration. Dangers for Hungary are as
(a) Failure to induce a profound change leaves alienation of state and
individual unchanged from the time of communisms.
(b) Abandonment by the liberal government the educational system,
results in a cultural and educational monopoly of the ruling elite on
one hand, and accumulation of undereducated, helpless, explosive
and crime-ridden masses on the other.
(c) The above create a "zone of sickness" in East Europe that grows
incompatible with the West, yet because of its (continued)
compatibility with the East, it is prone to fall under the control of the
East again. This time not by military occupation, but by government-
decrees of ex-communists, and/or Ukrainian/Russian/Chechen and
other mafia that are not only already well-established in Budapest,
but the Hungarian government is rapidly becoming helpless against
(d) A pulverized society will be unable to resist any sudden mass-
migration that might overrun Hungary and create an anarchy there.
Forty miles from Vienna (by that time Austria likely to be a member
state in the European Community).
(e) West, paralyzed against an East, crowded on its doorstep, will
have to lower the Iron Curtain again, sowing seeds of a war anew.

KGB methods are probably in place how to wield power by planting
proxies into pseudo-autonomous movements and parties, where the
naive, enthusiastically "anti-communist" membership is deprived of
any relevant political information and falls easy pray to superficial
manipulation. Thus, it does not really matter which party or coalition
wins, all subserve the same "vis major". For instance, in Hungary, all
governments were trampled under by the IMF, and the restrictive
monetary-economic course excluded any possibility of investing in
education.  In East Europe there is no middle class to speak of. The
Soviet system would never permit its development. Instead of
creating an economically autonomous and independent middle class,
a feudal narrow layer of chinovniks was nurtured, the elite
empowered by the party to rule over, not accepted by, the masses.
In Western societies, the lower middle class can aspire, and really
become middle class and perhaps even upper middle class. The
result is social stability by continuity. In post-communist societies,
there is no trend towards the emergence of a middle class. There is a
frightening polarization instead, to the thin layer of the overnight
superrich on one hand, and the masses steadily declining into
destitution on the other. The patently illegitimate superrich coalesce
then in order to consolidate their holdings over the deprived, whom
they handily declare as "enemies".

The brutal and money-centered IMF-course, disregarding needs of
societies, failed miserably with post-communism. The masses
abandoned confidence in ever becoming middle class. Instead, they
turned against the system, protesting any ruling order. This anger
did the government in at the elections in Hungary this Spring. Not
that the IMF or World Bank is "evil".  Not that reform-communists
are communists. Not that Hungarians are week and helpless by
nature.  Only because this is the true nature of post-communism
responding to routinely applied IMF policies.  Restructuring was
never architected, therapy was never doctored. ["Dear mortally sick:
take two IMF-tablets and call me in the morning"].

For societies emerging from communism (be it the soft-, hard-, or
regular variety), a routine application of a dose of the panacea of
"Western multiparty democracy" is not only "too little too late" - it
can even be dangerous. Shortchanging real solution of complex
problems by simple "free elections" pretends that they "solved it all"
[as if a Nazi system would be "changed" by encouraging mere
"multiparty elections"].  The only "change" is that the ruling elite
reorganizes itself and appears under a new flag - but without
changes in the foundation, "the more things change the more they
remain the same". Parliament enacts laws, only to be ignored by the
"apparatus". Lawmaking on the most important "property rights",
however, is obstructed. The elite rules and only superficially changes
by some new faces - while the costs of any window-dressing are
billed directly to the people.

Profound change cannot be implemented by "free elections" and by
declaration of a "multiparty system".  Democracy is a noble goal but
an insufficient means.  [Democracy in Germany could not be
introduced by "free elections" only, the condemnation and extirpation
of Nazism was absolutely inevitable].  Not the multi-party system
itself is at fault, since in Hungary you don't even find real and
effective political parties.  The KGB ruled at the time when the facade
of "parties" was craftily put up.  It is misleading, therefore, to talk
about the victory or defeat of the "right" or the "left". The present
"socio-liberal" coalition continues the same restrictive monetary
course that the "nationalist" government conducted in the past four
years - indeed, it was the same course ever since the liberals
installed it in 1982.  The liberals now enforce the exact same course
on the "socialists" that they enforced on the "nationalists" for the past
four years.  It is the contraction of the economy why the people
outvoted from power the "nationalists", [this is why the people will
also outvote the "socialists" - so hope the liberals].

A new policy and a new social structure is needed that can break out
from this vicious circle.   There are already initiatives and groups in
the outvoted coalition and among Hungarian patriots that spot this
ever clearer. Instead of any nationalism, they want a coalition of
patriots, working toward a profound renewal, of course taking into
consideration the special suppressed situation of the Hungarian
nation that Trianon imposed.  Too many things went wrong to hastily
remedy overnight. The strategy of renewal must be based on the fact
that no "privatization" can turn "Sovietized people" into a market-
oriented efficient society.  Decades of struggles and compromises
with communism left a badly malformed population. Mission
impossible is the heroic task of leading these invalids to a
nonexistent "Promised Land".

Dangerous challenges must be confronted. The return of communism
"by election", virtually throughout all East Europe did not happen by
chance. Also, it is not without great dangers. Those who pretend that
this is a step towards European democracy are gravely mistaken and
put themselves at serious risk.

The unthinkable has to be carefully considered first, and one has to
start doing about it whatever can be implemented. These societies
will not be West in our time - this is simply not possible. For decades,
these societies desperately resisted becoming East -- and gone broke
in the process.  Now is time to help them become societies of a third
kind  -- this is now the only way for them to go.

Instead of nurturing a Westernized "consumer society", local
autonomy, small-holdership, and neither Western nor Eastern
"quality of life" should be the model. Wherever half the society lives
under poverty-level, where the bulk of the society is simply not
ready for highly organized and efficient labor, it is pure nonsense to
talk about a "consumer society".  Advertisement, which creates
"demand" for the "supply", is to spur the output in well-developed
societies. In underdeveloped societies, however, it does not spur
production, it only increases social tension between the "have-s" and
the "have nots", since the latter has no hope and the former has no
legitimacy to enjoy what is to be enjoyed. For the political system has
no legitimacy, since voters know by now that they were done in by
media-manipulation of the elections, and since the political parties
are phony. Patriotism is not in the interest to the ruling political and
economic elite on one hand, while the impoverished people are
beaten into deep apathy.  Brainwashed lethargic people are in no
position to "decide" or to "make a choice".

This situation in East Europe is hauntingly similar to 18-19 century
conditions in India. In a series of wars, the British East-Indian
Society trampled under its control Indian nations in war with one
another, a process assisted by the corrupt local elite.  Conditions were
primitive, people were kept destitute and poverty drove them into
lethargy.  Societies were paralyzed into hopelessness, while the rich
became richer and in the meantime the British East-Indian Society
extracted fabulous treasures from the country. India, however, is a
great nation and a subcontinent. Thus, she survived being left out
from progress for a century.  Hungary, however, a heroic but tiny
nation [the size and population of the State of Ohio] is unlikely to
survive the same maltreatment from history.

There are two essential tasks to do.  A society inherited from
communism would be impossible to quickly "re-tread" for capitalism,
and the IMF-imposed restrictive policy even lessens the chance. The
down-spiraling government-budget drives education into the ground.
With the two above factors acting together, the number people who
are dissatisfied but at the same time are unable to do anything for
themselves, is increasing by the day.   These frustrated masses are
ready to listen to even the most absurd demagoguery and are angrily
poised to undo whatever strides have been taken towards
democracy. The hungry declines any inedible patriotism for a piece
of bread.  Betrayed again, however, [even in their national identity]
people will be even more dissatisfied and will deal an even harsher
"protest-vote". Will vote-in another Zhirinovski. The disenchanted
are always retrograde - and can not be done away with. The only
reasonable economic policy is that will put a stop to the increase of
the disenchanted, one that will invest in educating a future
generation against hopelessness.  To counter the above, a centralized
media has to be made independent of manipulation by the ruling
elite. Ex-communists misuse the media only to generate votes, or to
keep voters away from ballot boxes, whatever serves the elite best.
Also, investment to education is inevitable, in order to produce a
highly educated population.  Alas, both trends are prohibited by IMF
policies, and liberals disregard the goal of spending on the people in
order to produce a healthy society.  But people must trust,
throughout any process of change, that their becoming middle class is
open and government is for the people and by the people.

This is clearly impossible in societies trapped into grave national
debt, under conditions of an IMF dictatorship. This is why the trap of
national debt must be cracked open, and a massive educational
program must be launched.

The second limiting factor to progress is the ruling elite. It must be
curtailed.  Now everything is to serve this ruling elite. They dominate
the public and its opinion, they leave no breathing room to middle
class, they tax and redistribute, to serve themselves. All is based on
the ideology of liberalism, which "fully mandates" the elite for the
above.  The elite rigidly adheres to the rules of entrapment into debt,
and to the decrees of the East Indian Society -- since these are the
pillars of the power of the ruling elite.

Those few Western supporters of an East-European genuine progress
towards a society "of the third kind" face the criticism that this
would be a return to ultraconservative, right-wing regimes that had
existed until the end of WWII -- and it would inevitably result in a
trend towards the extreme right.  This argument does not hold,
however, since reverting to a regime gone for half a century is
simply not possible by a society in which even the oldest hardly
remembers anything from the days of, say, Miklos Horthy.  Whatever
sporadic extremist occurrences can be found, are concocted by idiots,
and many such occurrences are plainly fabricated. The left needs to
frame the patriotic center as a bunch of "bad guys" even if such a
common political tactic is not exactly the fairest [and should be
transparent to intelligent observers.

The citation below, from Wolfgang Schabule (in "Frankfurter
Allgemeine"), is to compare conditions in Germany and Hungary,
which are to some extent similar and even the differences are quite

"Why are institutions so weak, authorities so broken down, why does
social cohesion fizzle, why is the demise -- or rejection -- of
solidarity of the middle class? These are not only legitimate, but
extremely urgent questions to ask.  Plans of the "New Right" are
aimed not merely to guide a seemingly aimless and divergent society
towards more direction and cohesion. The goals are much more far-
reaching. Their arguments for demanding more internal authority is
an implicit defense of an increasing external authoritarianism.
Criticism by the "New Right" of the liberal state and the German
rejection of "power politics" is to mask their imperial dream,
centered on the idea of sovereignty. Although this is not meant in an
aggressive sense, it puts certain limits into place, literally. In their
idea of nations, limits and borders regain their significance".

Yes, the are dreamers among Hungarians, too. To be a dreamer,
however, you don't have to stand on the extreme right -- enough if
you are a realist.  Once you realized that you can do nothing about a
fact, you find consolation that can still dream about it -- if you are a
born dreamer.  Since 1920 in its history, the Hungarian Nation lives
in the Slovak, Roman, Serb, Croat and Sloven Republics, as well as in
Austria, not only in the Republic of Hungary.  Hungary has neighbors
and borders of very different kinds. To get across one border, a
Hungarian is deeply humiliated, at another border you do not even
have to stop.  Different territories lost in the Trianon treaty (in
Versailles) relate to Hungary very differently. Croatia, for instance,
has always been an autonomous State within the Hungarian Kingdom,
and no Hungarian dreamer would dream about regaining this, since it
is not lost.  However, independent of the present demographics,
Transsylvania [presently in Romania] and the Northern Region
[presently in Slovakia] has always been [for a thousand years] an
integer part of Hungarian history and culture, and any dreamer
would start feeling about them with the pain and bedazzlement of an
amputated "phantom limb". There is no sane, responsible Hungarian
citizen or politician who would even float the idea of regaining
control of such lost territories - however, despised are all who would
even attempt to prohibit dreaming about these lost territories, or
about a court that would ever rule them back.

This is not even a dream. It is only the common consciousness of a
nation that for [a thousand years] lived in the boundaries of one
state. This consciousness says; I am also Hungarian, but a little more
unfortunate. More then four million most unfortunate. Only because
they were born Hungarians.

Is there any "expansionism", any "imperial dream" in this natural

Hungarians yearn for understanding.  There is something terribly
wrong in Europe if its various institutions close their eyes on a brutal
Romanian assimilation in, and expulsion from, Transsylvania of
ethnic Hungarians. If they do not provide justice in the issue of the
diverted border-river of Danube between Hungary and the the
Slovak Republic, the most important waterway in Europe. If
Hungarian dreamers are unfairly equated to Serbian murder
nationalists. If Hungarians, talking about a place to remain for them
to live, are accused of aggression, although this is only a defensive
reaction to the shrinkage of a homeland.  If all the above is to occur,
a "comfortable" status quo may remain, but a terrible disease would
get out of control.

It is unfortunate that the press plays an all too obviously negative
role in distorting these phenomena for the European public opinion.
Some internal Hungarian political forces, capitalizing on their
international connections established over decades, saw to it that
their opponents were internationally discredited by the press. It
inflicts a great damage to Hungary if responsible thinkers, whole
intellectual movements and individuals who represent significant
circles of the society are excluded from any exchange and formation
of ideas, and some who let themselves be exploited are forced to put
up an artificial phony facade.

The European community of nations has always been capable of
rising to the challenge and correcting its mistakes, however late. The
problem at this point is a focus on the integration of economies,
rather than of societies, and even an overplayed economic
integration was attempted on the wrong premises [of IMF policies].
Maybe time is now to start an educational process towards firming
up the European mentality, culture, expertise and will in peoples in
East Europe. The most important capital in Europe is the pool of
rational, creative and humane individuals, standing on a Christian
system of values.

If we permit development of societies that loose touch with their
thousand year old identity and history, we permit a conglomeration
unable of self-organization to careen out of control - like a contagious
disease with no remedy in sight.

Only European individuals, who can constantly re-establish their
identity, are immune to this disease.

This is how we could envision and then accomplish our eventual
+ - Romanes.. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

  What is the basis of the Romanes language?  Does it still contain eastern
words?  Is it a written language?  Is it still common today? Curious...marc
+ - MY MENTAL ABILITIES (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>Congratulations! You could win a prize in arrogance! What's wrong with
>Hungarians wanting to teach their kids their native language? And what do you
>exactly mean by 'peasant language'? I'm curious what your native language is
>and whether you want to teach your kids your 'peasant language'.
>And finally, you are the first person who agreed with Ceaucescu on any matter
>so I really have to question your mental abilities.
>Istvan Siposs

I am a Franco-Hungarian, the worst possible genetic combination.  So therefore
my mental abilities (if such an expression exists) are pretty sad.  So please
do not take me too seriously!  I apoligize if I offended anyone, but I was
merely trying to make the point that Hungarians that live outside of Hungary
are often treated the same way as the Gypsies that have lived in Hungary for
hundreds of years.

I believe it was Paul that brought up the case of special treatment towards
hispanics in the United States.  Lest us not forget that many parts of the
United States have been spanish speaking for a long long time.  This is no
diffrent than the parts of Romania, Slovakia, and Serbia that have been
Hungarian speaking for a long long time.

Certainly, I would agree that the influx of spanish speaking immigrants does
make this a diffrent issue, but one must keep in mind that even without any
immigration, there would still be a large spanish speaking population in

As far as other ethnic groups in the US not demanding bilingual education, this
is false.  In parts of Maine and Lousiana, the french speaking populations have
often fought to have their children educated in french.  There has been a long
battle in Lewiston Maine for example, where 60% of the pop. speaks french.

Of course these are all merely "peasant language", including English.  If we
were all logical people we would have adopted Esperanto a long time ago.

Yes, I too saw the program on Gypsies in Paris on 60 minutes.  I live in Paris,
and I must say that I have never encountered any such problems.  But then again
I never hang out in touristy areas.  Mind you Gypsies are not the only ethnic
group in Paris that steal.  Michel Noir, Bernard Tapie, and the PR are not
gypsies, yet they have stolen millions of Francs from the pockets of the french
people.  I don't believe that where any Gypsies in the US congress that
were behind the Post Office scandal.

One last thought concerning my dear friend Ceaucescu.  I remember seeing a
documentary about his trip to the US.  He was invited by Jimmy Carter who had
embraced him as a man that respected human rights (Jimmy also said that Gen.
Raoul Cedras was a peacenik).  Upon arriving in New York City he was greeted
by Ed Koch and a bunch of Hungarian-Americans.  Mayor Koch said something like,
" Mr Ceausescu, I have a few hungarian friends of mine here that say you have
no respect for human rights and that you torture and prosecute citizens of
your own country.  Is this true?"  He promptly left New York, highly offended.

Does anybody know about this?  I could be mistaken and I know that I have
misquoted Koch.  But I would like to clarify this story...G'day! marc horchler
+ - Roma in CR and Hungary (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Given the theme of the Roma (Gypsies) in Hungary that has played recently
on the list, it seems fitting that issue 40 of the Czech weekly Respekt
should devote its front page and leading article to a discussion of the
issue of the Gypsy labor camp that was established in the Czech Lands (on
the basis of a decision made by the so-called "Second Republic" government
days before the German occupation ended the farce, but laying a claim to
legality by referring to legislation passed in the 1920s to try to control the
nomadic behaviour of the Czech gypsies).  It's estimated that of the somewhat
more than 1300 people incarcerated here (whose daily wage as labourers for
the local farmers, and even some industrialists from Prague, was 10 hellers
per hour) one half died at Auschwitz after transportation, and another third
(many of them children) perished in camp, mostly from typhus.  Altogether of
 the total of 6,541 Czech Roma identified by the Protektorat authorities in
1940, about 600 survived the war, according to 1946 estimates.  There are
mixed reactions about this and similar aspects of the Czech past, since it was
always nicer to blame everything on the German Nazis, but the labor camp was
largely run by the Protektorat (mostly Czech-staffed) police.  A memorial is
supposed to be erected on the site of the camp's mass graves, but no-one is
absolutely certain where it is; and where the camp was is now a major pig farm,
built in the early 70s, and employing hundreds of locals--many of whom are
worried about the possible loss of this source of work.  It's all a part of the
Czech version of Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung, a process only partially finished.
And possibly also in Hungary?

Anyway, the issue also contains a brief article by Respekt's Budapest
correspondent Maciej Szymanowski, under the title "Renascence has Begun:
How Hungarian Roma Live" -- here's a rough translation:

If someone in Hungary is selling a flat, he must be prepared for the fact
that a potential buyer will be interested in the neighbors before he asks
about the price or the square-footage.  If the proffered apartment is located
(for example) on Budapest's Csepel Island, for the most part inhabited by
Roma, chances for a profitable sale are nil.

Roma began to settle in Hungary in the 14th century--just as in the rest of
Central Europe.  But in contrast to countries like Austria or Poland, where
they do not represent more than 2 per thousand of the total population,
Hungary with 560 thousand Roma (more than 5% of the population) takes the
position right behind Bulgaria at the head of European countries.

At the beginning of the sixties a program was pushed forward in Hungary, whose
goal was the rapid assimilation of the Roma to "civilization".  Roma families
had preference in assigning apartments, and if the adults proved they had
stable employment and the children that they were attending school regularly
these families could also make use of wide-ranging financial support systems.
It's necessary to remember that at the beginning of the sixties about 70%
of the Hungarian Roma still lived in camps or shanties (today 6%) and that
half of the children (today 10%) began to attend school at least one year late
due to "mental retardation."

In those days barely 30% of the Roma children completed basic elementary
school.  Today their number has reached 50% and a further 25-30% finish
elementary school through night classes or during military service.  One
third of the Roma children enter secondary or trade schools, but only one in
three or four successfuly completes the course.  The number of qualified
workers among Roma employed in industry has been increased since the 60s
almost threefold (to 50%).  Worse news is that the number of Roma males with
regular employment, which had been increased from 30 to 85%, has since the
beginning of the eighties slowly but surely declined.  Unemployment among the
Roma (probably 30%) exceeds the statewide average by more than double.

In spite of indisputable successes the program from the sixties can only be
considered a partial success.  Its main goal was not achieved: to create a
stratum of Roma intelligentisa who could demonstrate the possibility and
advantages of upward social movement and as an example speed up the assimi-
lation process.

In Hungary three Roma dailies and the literary magazine _Phralipe_ are
regularly published.  The Roma have their own theater and can associate in
practically 100 organizations, among which are even political formations
(Roma Parlament and Roma Forum).  Roma receive roughly one-half of the state
funds set aside to support organizations of national minorities.  Last year
this amounted to 310 million forint.  Aside from this the system of family
support for parents who send their children to school, as well as unemployment
assistance for Roma unemployed, still exists.  An interesting initiative is
the formation of their own police in locations where Roma live in compact
communities.  This police force is autonomous from the state police, and in
return ensures law and order on its own ground.

At the moment only 10% of the Roma in Hungary assert their nationality: 70%
use Hungarian at home.  At the "Office for national and ethnic minorities"
however, they assured me that the renascence has already begun.  And they
say "thank God", because supposedly "only where you meet a Roma is there
freedom, where you don't meet one, even freedom isn't there any more."
+ - Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

What does Vergangenheitsbewaeltigungmean?  BTW, Thanx for the Respekt article
translation.  Very interesting...marc
+ - Hungarians in Rumania (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

The following news alert from the Hungarian Human Rights Foundation may
be of some interest. I pass it on verbatim.

C.K. Zoltani

        HHRF ALERT...

                Rumania's Appointment to Key Privatization Posts
                Discriminate against National Minorities

Government statistics released in May 1994 reveal a pattern of
anti-minority discrimination in the appointment of officials reponsible
for privatizing the country's economy. The worst instance occurs in
Mures County, where according to the official 1990 census 43 percent of
the county population is ethnic Hungarian, but only 3 percent of the
officials appointed to privatize local industry are Hungarian. In the
two majority Hungarian-inhabited counties (Harghita 85% and Covasna
76%), only 44% and 41% of the officials are ethnic Hungarian.

The under-representation is equally severe in the remaining eight
counties where the ethnic Hungarian population is between 10 and 35
percent, but the number of Hungarian appointees averages only 6 percent.
Overall in 16 selected counties, ethnic Hungarians were selected to fill
key positions in 10 percent of the cases, while their average proportion
to the total county population is two and a half time greater, or 24

Based on the discriminatory pattern evident from the government
statistics, ethnic Hungarians fear that decisions taken by the
government appointees will violate the principle of local ownership in
local enterprises. The situation is aggravated by the fact that the
government appointees serve under the supervision of
government-appointed county Prefects - of whom the only two ethnic
Hungarians were replaced by Rumanians in July 1992.

Selected Counties       Hungarian Appointees    Hungarian Population

                        Number          %       Number          %

Harghita                64              44      295,104         85
Covasna                 37              41      177,687         76
Mures                    6               3      262,651         43
Satu Mare               24              12      140,392         35
Bihor                   14               8      181,703         28
Salaj                   10              10       63,151         24
Cluj                     7               2      146,186         20
Arad                    11               5       61,011         13
Maramures                7               4       64,902         12
Brasov                   3               1       63,103         12
Sibiu                    6               3       19,309         10
Timis                    3               1       62,866          9
Bistrita-Nasud          10               8       21,098          6
Huneodara                6               3       33,849          6
Alba                     2               1       24,765          6
Caras-Severin            6               6        7,876          2
+ - Re: The vote for overseas Hungarians (Was: Re: (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Zoli Fekete writes:

>  Actually, HU does not disallow non-resident citizens to vote, rather
> requires voting in the country; that is, non-residents can vote
> visiting while those on leave from home at the time of the ballot cannot!

Thanks for that clarification.  Another question, does Hungarian law
allow even internal absentee voting?

+ - prevent info-highway roadkill (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Istvan Siposs writes:

> Congratulations! You could win a prize in arrogance! What's wrong with...

Please run--not walk--to the nearest literature or drama department and
have them install an irony detector.  :-)

+ - Hungarian national day of mourning (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

From _HUNGARY A Brief History_, Istva1n La1za1r, trans. A.Tezla:

        The czar's army marched out of Hungary.  The Austrian Field-
Marshal Haynau had command over life and death in the country.  On
his orders, the death sentence was carried out on October 6th in Arad
against thirteen generals by a hangman or--out of mercy--by a firing
squad.  Perhaps, weighed against the great numbers of other victims,
it is somewhat unfair for us to mention the Arad Thirteen so frequently;
the day of their martyrdom is a day of national mourning, although
another hundred or so died and thousands were imprisioned, while tens
of thousands drafted as common soldiers had to serve unpredictable
numbers of years in the godforsaken spots of the empire

        On October 6th, 1849, the Austrians also executed in Pest Count
Lajos Batthya1ny, the former Prime Minister who had, however, counted on
being a moderating element to the very end.  It is a question for
psychologists to answer why Francis Joseph I afterwards kept the
painting of Batthya1ny's execution in the Burg apartments so that he could
look at it every day....

        Haynau, who was also called the Hyena of Brescia because of his
earlier atrocities in Italy, created an atmosphere that even Vienna
could not stomach.  The emperor relieved him.  On his last day, in his
wounded fury, in a schizophrenic and capricious manner, Haynau ordered
immediate executions and performed unexpected acts of mercy at the same
time.  His name and portrait were so widely spread throughout Europe at
the time that when he traveled as a private citizen, English longshore-
men recognized him and beat him.

+ - Re: Romanes.. (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

>  What is the basis of the Romanes language?  Does it still contain eastern
>words?  Is it a written language?  Is it still common today? Curious...marc


The core of the language is a basic vocabularly drawn, originally, from
Sanskrit. That amounts to about 3000 words in most dialects. It is, at this
point in time, very similar to modern Hindi. On top of that is a lot of word
borrowings, many from Persian and many more from Rumanian & Hungarian. There
is, as of 1980, a standard orthography, and a large number of publications
in Romanes have appeared over the years. So, it is *beginning* to be a
written language. It's probably got about 20 million native speakers (of a
wide variety of dialects) worldwide.

Rebecca Tracy
OSU Slavic & East European Studies
+ - Re: The vote for overseas Hungarians (Was: Re: (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Another question, does Hungarian law allow even internal absentee voting?
 I did not get all the nifty details, being excluded myself ;-<, but
the last I heard was this: if away you can vote for the (national)
party lists but not for the individual district candidate. I think you
have to vote in person at the regular voting sites (and arrange in
advance your registration for the place you are going to be) - there
are no mail-in absentee mechanism, AFAIK.

-- Zoli
+ - Re: Gypsies (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George wrote:
>  I was
>amazed at reports that a good number of Gypsies in Slovakia declared
>Hungarian as their mother tongue: I do not think they have much to thank
>Hungarians for, still they stick to our language notwithstanding the ouble
>discrimination that this would bring upon them.  To me it would appear as no
>loss to them to discard one assumed language and take up another one, it
>may even lead to a marginal improvement in their social position, still they
>do not do it.  I recall reports implying the same phenomenon in Romania.
>This certainly goes well against the prejudicial notion of Gypsies only
>wanting to take advantage of non-Gypsies.

Many Romani people from the Hungarian speaking regions of Central Europe
lost their native language when Maria Theresia implemented forced
assimilation programs. (I say forced because the penalty for speaking
Romanes was death, although I don't think that sentence was carried out very
often.) These groups call themselves Romungro and speak Hungarian w/ an
accent that is pretty much the last vestage of their Romani-speaking
tradition. That is why a lot of Slovak and Rumanian Roma declare Hungarian
as their language and identify with Magyars in those regions.

I wrote:
>> for the most part Roma in the U.S.
>>do better economically than those in Europe.
George asked:

>Is this all of Europe or only east of the defunct Iron Curtain ?

*Mostly* in the East, with the caveat that there are pockets of really badly
off Roma in the West of Europe, as well. While that is very uncommon in the
U.S. And, yes, I agree that this is definitely something for the
sociologists to look at.

>This leads to the broad question of how one can reconcile two very different
>cultures to mutual satisfaction, without the assimilation of the minority ?
>Such problems exist in many places, often between indigenous people and latter
>day settlers, so the implications of finding some solutions would be immense.

These assimilation problems are tricky. I worry about solutions that are too
final, based upon the notion that some group has the "right" culture or the
"right" way of evaluating the worth of cultures.

Rebecca Tracy
OSU Slavic & East European Studies
+ - Re: Gypsies (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I wrote:
>>Because Romani people originally came from India, much of the underlying
>>culture is based upon a caste system. Therefore, non-Roma are considered
>>ritually unclean, and this causes problems with group interaction. It is
>>difficult to maintain caste norms when you must work and live among
>>"unclean" people.

Paul replied:
>Thank you Rebecca for the honest most "defenders of the weak" on this
>list haven't shown.  I wasn't aware of this belief by the Roma, but
>it is a clear example of an unacceptable idea people of all political
>ideas can agree on.  It doesn't make Roma bad people, and certainly doesn't
>make them good people, but it is an idea held by people of that culture
>which is wrong in the eyes of Europeans.  Imagine that, a negative cultural
>attribute!  Shocking that the world is not like the image shown at the
>'It's a Small World After All' ride at Disney Land.  Can we agree that this
>belief is not worth defending as part of Roma culture in Europe?  At the
>same time, I'm sure therare folks on the list who will defend this too.

I'd have to agree that the tenets of Romaniya that say that *all* outsiders
are unclean is unworkable in the modern world. Of course, like Kosher law,
there is a way of accomplishing retention of the basis of these beliefs
while still living with others. That middle road is hard to find, though.
So, for example, there are Roma who won't associate with me (consider me
unclean) because I attend university and am around non-Roma. I won't
advocate trahing the culture, just moderating.
Rebecca Tracy
OSU Slavic & East European Studies
+ - Re: The vote for overseas Hungarians (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Istvan:  I also recently returned from several months in Hungary, during
which I sought accomodations, jobs, etc.  I found no such inexpensive
apartment as you mentioned, only $90 per month.  Are you referring to
rent and income in Budapest, medium size cities, or rural areas?  Just
+ - Re: Gypsies (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Rebecca:  I am so glad that you are providing sound, factual information
to this discussion.  I am a student in the Russian and East European
Institute at Indiana University.  I know very little about Romanes
except what I have observed in Hungary.  I appreciate the information and
your ability to straighten out chauvenistic quacks who have contributed
to this discussion of late.       -Jennifer Thomas
+ - facts and namecalling (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Jennifer Thomas writes:

> Rebecca:  I am so glad that you are providing sound, factual information
> to this discussion.

Me too.

> I appreciate the information and
> your ability to straighten out chauvenistic quacks who have contributed
> to this discussion of late.

I agree with Ms Thomas that prose is more effective if adorned with
name calling.

+ - chauvenistic quacks (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

"chauvenistic quacks"!, whoa those are harsh words!  Certainly there has been
a bit of overexageration of the Gypsie problem, but there is some truth behind
the stories Paul has brought up.  My family has a farm in Bourgogne that was
robbed by a band of Gypsies.  Certainly there are many decent, educated Romas
in the world, but there are still too many that disrupt society.  I do not
believe that this is the result of inferior genes, it is simply the resultof
poverty, gypsy culture, and yes discrimination.
     Programs such as the one tried in Hungary to house and educate the Romas
need to be improved and enlarged.  Stricter punishment of parents who force
their children to steal are needed.  Most importantly more Rebeccas are needed
for productive cultural pride.  However "chauvenistic quacks" sounds like yet
another silly PC term.  All opinions need to be heard in order to come up
with real solutions.  Even those opinions that are ill-founded, (perhaps even
mine).  That's my two Forints worth...marc
+ - Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

What language is this in?  I know this is probably irrelevant but it seems like
such a nice word...marc
+ - Re: Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> What language is this in?  I know this is probably irrelevant but it seems
> such a nice word...marc

You're kidding, right?  It's swahili, and means (I think)
        "coming to terms with the past"

+ - Re: END OF DEMOCRACY (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I agree, it appears to be an example of what Henry Adams might have
referred to as "THE DEGRADATION OF DEMOCRACY," i.e., a superficial analysis
of politics by a *clueless Newbie" as to what politics really is.  Consider
politics to be, as Max Weber indicated in his classic, POLITICS AS A
PROFESSION, the interface or relationship between power on the one hand and
morality on the other.  Those who are interested only in politics as morality
Weber indicated, use an "ethic of ultimate ends" and should go into the saint
business.  Those who are interested only in politics as power, Weber
suggested, use an "ethic of power."  Thus Aristotel suggests the former are
saints, and the latter are beasts.
        Real political leaders, such as Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and
Nelson Mandela, or Lincoln, *join* both power and morality.  If the rest of
us fail, that's because leadership in politics is both difficult and rare.

Glen D. Camp
Professor of Political Science
Bryant College

On Thu, 6 Oct 1994  wrote:

> From: Miklos N Szilagyi, 
> Date: 29 Sep 1994 04:52:14 GMT
> In article > Miklos N Szilagyi,
>  writes:
> >The End of Democracy?
> [text of political pamphlet deleted]
> >Miklos N. Szilagyi is the founder of the COMMON SENSE movement whose
> goal
> >is to apply intelligent, *nonpolitical* common sense approaches to
> >society's problems. We believe that these problems must be attacked at
> >their core and not at the surface.
> this strikes me as another paradigm example of newspeak: signing off a
> political pamphlet with the claim taht it is "*nonpolitical*.
> eric blair where are you?
> d.a.
+ - Re: The vote for overseas Hungarians (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

George Lazar wrote:

> Most Hungarian-Americans are only US citizens. In order to vote, they'd
> have to assume Hungarian citizenship or establish Hungarian residency
> by living there,

Oh really?  You don't say!  Just between us, George:  Any Hungarian, who
can prove he was born of Hungarian parents, or that he was at one time a
Hungarian citizen, is still a citizen, regardless of how many other
citizenships he may have.  In other words, the Hungarian citizenship is
a "sticky" one for it's not lost automatically upon gaining another one.
So, for instance, even you could probably get a Hungarian passport if
you applied for it with the proper proofs, such as a birth certificate
("anyakonyvi kivonat", in Hungarian).  And what's nice about it, the US
law acknowledges dual (or multiple) citizenships where US nationality is
one of them.  Of course, they don't advise it because of the
complications it can create.

Some exceptions to the above should be mentioned:  Hungarian citizenship may
be revoked from individuals by supreme Hungarian authority which used to be
the Council of Ministers under the Communist era.  It might be the
president of the republic today, I don't know.  It could also be revoked
by international treaties which -- I think -- applies to the Hungarian
ethnics in the successor states.  However, it certainly does not apply
to Hungarian immigrants to the US.

Joe Pannon
+ - Re: The vote for overseas Hungarians (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

I. Siposs must be pretty new here for asking me the following:

> I wonder when was the last time you've been in Hungary and for how long.
> If it was recently and for a longer period of time you certainly would
> understand why the people at home want "our" money. It's a little hard to liv
> on around $120 a month when rent itself costs minimum $90 and appliances, for
> example, cost as much as here.

As most regulars here know, I just returned from a five-week stay in
Hungary.  Besides that, I a keep quite abreast of what's going on there.
In fact, on several occasions my own brother there remarked that I was
more familiar with many of the happenings in Hungary than he was.  Well,
as so many others, he is too busy just to keep his nose above the
water (economically speaking) to follow events too closely.
And he didn't know about Internet, of course.

+ - Re: Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Greg writes--
>It's [S]wahili....

Very funny for those of us who know it isn't (it's German), but the term does
serve to argue against those who maintain that German isn't an agglutinative
language, like, say, Magyar, Turkish, and--gasp!--Eskimo/Inuit...:-).

+ - ONLINE orszaghaz (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

___MAGYAR ELEKTRONIKUS TOZSDE____________________________HU-ISSN_1216-0229
MET                                  Copyright  1994. IV. evfolyam /volume

      ********Uj HAZSZABALY oktober 8-an eltbe lepett*********

Oszi ulesszak okt. 10-11 -ei hetfo kedd ulesenek ujdonsaga az
"Az azonnali kerdesek oraja" amely most kedden 14 oratol kb 16:30-ig tart.
A kepviselok reggel 9-ig tehetik fel irasban kerdeseiket amire a
miniszternek delutan valszolnia kell. Ezt az uj jogintezmeny a Brit
Parlament rendszerenek adaptalasa.

A napirend magallapitasa ezentul az Orszaggyules feladata, a Hazbizottsag
csak ajanlassal el az orszaggyules fele.

Ujdonsag tovabba, hogy az elnoki pulpitus alatti szonoki emelvenyrol
tortenik az elore bejelntett "eloadasok" -:), esetleg a miniszteri expoze,
a levezeto elnok felhivja a kovetkezo felszolalo figyelmet is.

A napiren kiemelkedo temaja az EXPO 96 Budapest nemzetkozi szakkiallitas
megrendezesenek lemondasarol szolo tv. jav. altalanos vita folytatasa es

A Magyar Koztarsasag 1994. evi potkoltsegveteserol szolo tv. jav reszletes
vitajara kerul sor. Kozel 50 modosito javaslatot kell a haznak megtargyalnia.
+ - The vote for... Hungarians-- at least 3 (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> Greg asks--
> >Do other European states allow non-resident citizens to vote?

 Bela answers:

> Yes, at least two--Austria and France.  Two Austrian students of mine either
> recently voted in the Austrian referendum on EU membership, or will vote in

  My answer is:

  Yes, at least 3
  My friends from Romania voted at the embassy in Budapest 2 years ago.

  Tibor Asztalos SZEGED
+ - Re: Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

> From: "H. MARC" >

> Subject: Vergangenheitsbewaeltigung
> What does Vergangenheitsbewaeltigungmean?  BTW, Thanx for the Respekt article


            Victory over history

> translation.  Very interesting...marc

  Tibor Asztalos
+ - Vote overseas Hungarians (mind) VÁLASZ  Feladó: (cikkei)

Dear George Antony!

 You quoted Istvan Magyar:
> Istvan Magyar wrote:
> >the "Hungarian Telephone Book"
> >lists more than 1,500 Hungarian-Americans in the San Francisco
> >region. I have $1,500 to bet, that if a poll were conducted among the
> >fifteen hundred listed, many-many more than 23 (the ominous 1.5%
> >as in Hungary) would vote for Csurka.  Why do you think all anti-
> >Hungarian regimes of Hungary are avoiding like a plague giving
> >voting rights to their citizens who are abroad?
and continued:

> As for the broader issue, I think it is fair to let only those to vote
> who are willing to live with the consequences of their vote, that is,
> in Hungary rather than kibitzing from across the ocean.  Note that this
> excludes me too.

  You are right in principle. I agree. But

  1.) I have to tell you:

  Nobody asked me in May about my life.
  Do I want to REMAIN in Hungary after the election or not?
  In principle I can go and remain in other country.
  I could kibitzing from across the ocean.

  2.)  ??

  Did anyboby ask those who live abroad any question about their
  intention to return?

  What about changing place?

  Tibor Asztalos